Pro-RKBA European residents please stand up


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Chisel Head
September 18, 2008, 05:32 AM
I'm not sure if I'm starting this thread in the proper sub forum. But, I'll chance it anyway.
Because this forum is so large, it would take nearly forever to comb through the members list looking for fellow residents of continental Europe and the islands.
I would like to proliferate the RKBA philosophy in Europe and this thread is intended for those who voluntarily wish to acquaint themselves with others for either simple frienship:), commecial interests, grass-root activist activity or whatever.
I'll go first.
I'm residing in Germany. I'm not unreasonably far from France and Switzerland.
I'm willing to help those who need an English-German and vice versa translation

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Mp7
September 18, 2008, 06:31 AM
Moin.

Hmmm..... definitely gun fascinated, dunno though wether i would
want to apply the 2A here.

You can philosophically compare our different societies,
but you cannot compare them realistically.......

If you introduce 2A here.... well, you and me might be completely
responsible gun owners...., but can you imagine the rest
of our people owning any kind of guns, responsibly... eh...

No, sorry. Practically me not think so.
(philosophically of course, but the price for trying is too high)

Cheers from Hamburg,
Mp7

DonDisco
September 18, 2008, 08:10 AM
Here I am.

I'm in Frankfurt and currently own a Mossy M44, a Fabarm SDASS, a Molot Vepr12 and a G17.
All for sporting purposes, of course.

Chisel Head
September 18, 2008, 08:13 AM
...dunno though wether i would want to apply the 2A here...If it was introduced, I'll bet that most people would suddenly start driving responsibly

Mp7
September 18, 2008, 08:32 AM
(...hmm... maybe the conflict between the skinhead-nazis and the normal citizens in our eastern regions would find a very loud but sudden end.....too.)

unsure, wether the guidance reliant german people as such
wouldnt really be overwhelmed by so much self-responsibility.

Our police would definitely have to be reinforced by
ISAF-Vets to handle the new situation.

in Short:
- i do think the US 2A-history and tradition make sense
and have settled in the minds of many citizens.
- i think this maturity cannot be transferred to here by
just legalizing RKBA.

Doubtful. At least.

Chisel Head
September 18, 2008, 08:47 AM
But perhaps, the government could repeal the present laws to restore German firearms laws to how they were before 1945.
The Skinheads are already armed. If anything, Eastern Germany might end up as a refuge for those who are fed up with the demographic development (if "development" is the proper word. "Decay" would be more fitting), in the west, who have neither the funds nor the career qualifications to leave the country, altogether. Already, 200,000 ethnic Germans leave the country, each year, and many more silently flee the urban centers for obvious reasons

Yoda
September 18, 2008, 10:02 AM
I knew many GIs in Germany who had several guns, including one who CLAIMED he had a submachine gun (but he was normally full of BS anyway).

I can help write letters for this cause, but I know just enough German to get into trouble.

It seems to me that the real issue is that there isn't a cultural foundation for safe gun handling. I suspect most people in societies that have abandoned their self-defense heritage have no idea how to safely handle a gun and even less concept on responsible use. To them, guns are just "scarey."

We'd need to overcome that. I suspect most European cultures would insist on extensive mandatory training, just like they do for drivers licenses.

- - - Yoda

Mp7
September 18, 2008, 11:21 AM
...well,

our actual situation right now limits gun-ownership
to the establishment... as many people cannot afford
to rent a hunting ground, do not have an SUV... etc

AND to people who have no problem with getting into
a gun sports club..., which is the most common way
to acquire a WBK ( owner-card).

(personally i´d rather have a hole in the head, than
spend my freetime with any members of ANY german
club, as the nerd-quota tends to be extremely high.....)

...which effectively limits gun-ownership to
well-to-do hobbyhunters,
club-sporting-nerds,
and criminals, who never care for the law.

Looking at this, i of course must change my opinion:

Either take them away from those groups too,
or make it more liberal for everyone.

equal rights.

Chisel Head
September 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
...there isn't a cultural foundation for safe gun handling. I suspect most people in societies that have abandoned their self-defense heritage have no idea how to safely handle a gun...You could say the same is true where capitalism was removed and replaced with a plan economy. The remedy was to throw those societies into the river, so that they would once again learn how to swim, once the Soviet Union and encompassing sattelites were disolved...our actual situation right now limits gun-ownership to the establishment... as many people cannot afford to rent a hunting ground, do not have an SUV... etcI hardly see financial difficulties or the owner ship of recreational vehicles as a prerequisite for gun ownership. Especially, if the sole purpose of owning the gun is security related...(personally i´d rather have a hole in the head, than spend my freetime with any members of ANY german club, as the nerd-quota tends to be extremely high.....)You have a point there. Those who haven't lived anywhere else but in Germany tend to live in a world of their own, divorced from reality. It's bad enough when you enter a bar alone. Either you'll end up doing what you could just as well do at home in front of the TV or if you try to mingle, everyone else there knows everything better than you do. Those self-legendary barflies even do a good job of chasing women out of the Kneipen. Just across the border, in neighboring Denmark, you can have a lot of fun in bars and the clientel is always 50% female...Either take them away from those groups too, or make it more liberal for everyone...The only way to keep guns away from criminals is to keep criminals out of society. Since, nobody does that, anymore, that's good enough reason to allow law-abiding citizens to own them

barman
September 18, 2008, 02:35 PM
I'm French, living in Versailles and I would support a "European" 2Ammendment.

Regarding my country, from 1871 to the 1920s we used to be very militaristic and every citizen could buy and own any type of handgun or rifle without any hassle.
The government wanted a Spartan education of the population in order to get some revenge over the Germans for the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine.

That's the problem with Europe. We've had so many useless massacres on our soil that firearms are always associated with suffering.
But French people have forgotten that the right to own and bear arms is actually an ancient right inherited from the revolution.

It's the anti-guns government of 1936 (the Front Populaire) which disarmed the people and cut down all the military budgets that led to our defeat in 1940.
I wish my compatriots would remember their History.

Picard
September 18, 2008, 03:09 PM
What makes Europeans less competent than Americans?

For those that are afraid that RKBA will increase crime, your worries are unfounded. You guys are just playing into the same tactics that anti-gunners have been using since the beginning. Don't worry, those scary guns won't turn anyone into a murderer that wasn't one previously. What they will do is allow to guys to defense yourselves from him when he does strike.

It's all about independence. Much of Europe is dependent upon the government and I think that it will be to their downfall when the government does go bad, not that it hasn't already in many regards.

ErikS
September 18, 2008, 03:26 PM
I agree.
The gunlaws in a lot of Europe are fairly new, and there was never any problem with guns before. More or less everyone living in the countryside here had a gun of some sort, mostly for hunting. There were no gun cabinets or anything like that, the gun was usually kept inside the door, or hanging from a nail in the kitchen. The kids knew not to touch it, ever.

There are more guns here now than a lot of people realize. Yet there are really no problems with them, except from the *criminals* (hint) using *illegal* (hint again) guns.
There are hardly ever any problems with the hunters guns, the homeguards guns (yes, they do have "assault weapons" at home) or with the sport shooters. It's so rare, that if it ever happens it makes national news, and creates a new debate of more control.

What we dont have is RKBA. We get to have guns only with the governemnts permission, and we do not get to use them to protect ourselfes in any way, only so use for target shooting and hunting.

I cant see any problem with getting RKBA here.
Except that our governemnts wont ever allow it, just like they tend to dislike any other kind of self defense.

The Viking
September 18, 2008, 04:12 PM
I live in Europe, and I support the RKBA. No, I'm not particularly worried about criminals suddenly arming themselves (they are already armed, unless I dreamt about reading of that police station that got an entire mag from an AK47 through one of its windows).

Chisel Head
September 19, 2008, 04:00 AM
It's the anti-guns government of 1936 (the Front Populaire) which disarmed the people...Didn't the Vichy government restore some of those rights?...It's all about independence. Much of Europe is dependent upon the government and I think that it will be to their downfall when the government does go bad, not that it hasn't already in many regards...In the country where I reside, it's gotten to the point where we are better off when the government officials attended parliament and did absolutely nothing, before going home at night. Any time they do anything, they weaken the nation even further. Germany only functions within a manufacturing plant where they have good government. Outside of the plant, it has become a catastrophe.
However, the government will back off from unpopular legislation, when certain groups show force. For example, as the government set a date for a moratorium on paying subsidies to miners of brown coal (Although, I think that the government should have done this immediately, instead of setting a date some 12 years in advance), the miners organized a bus trip to the capital for protest. The government felt uncomfortable with answering thousands of miners with thousands of riot policemen. So, they backed off. Therefore, an armed citizenry should make a unpopular government think twice...More or less everyone living in the countryside here had a gun of some sort, mostly for hunting. There were no gun cabinets or anything like that, the gun was usually kept inside the door, or hanging from a nail in the kitchen. The kids knew not to touch it, ever...In fact, I last saw a hunting rifle as I lived in Sweden. It seems that more restrictions are legislated concerning alcoholic beverages than concerning guns. Of course, this person had bought a house in the countryside and drove to work daily, rather than living in an urban area. Scandinavians are rather disciplined enough not to hunt off-season and not to use guns for arbitrating family disputes. It's somehow ingrained in their heritage...There are hardly ever any problems with the hunters guns, the homeguards guns (yes, they do have "assault weapons" at home) or with the sport shooters. It's so rare, that if it ever happens it makes national news, and creates a new debate of more control...As I was last there, some 20 years ago, already, criminals weren't interested in sneaking up on farm houses to break in. Instead, there was more profit in breaking into warehouses and emptying them. Most crime was commited on a massive basis. Probably, because Sweden was so sparsely populated that criminals had a vast area of which they could hide their loot. The presence of police probably helped to make domestic break-ins undesireable. Almost everybody had a cell phone, back then and I've never seen so many police cars in any country like I've seen in Sweden. I used to think that I was in a police state....that police station that got an entire mag from an AK47 through one of its windows...That incident took place in that southern Swedish town of Södertälje where refugees of recent middle eastern conflicts are now housed. Not to mention the rise there of sexual- and violent crimes, raising the question of perhaps thinking over initiating RKBA in Sweden. Since, Russia isn't taking in any refugees that I've heard of, even though they have more land per resident and the Swedish government refuses to contain them in compounds. But, instead turns them loose on society
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