Thoughts...?


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JackBurtonJr
September 18, 2008, 07:26 PM
Phoenix officer shoots man who detained burglar


PHOENIX - Phoenix police say one of their officers shot and wounded a man who had been holding a burglar at gunpoint inside his home.

Sgt. Tommy Thompson says the incident late Wednesday happened as officers responded to a flurry of calls in an east Phoenix neighborhood, about shots fired, a wounded man who acted strangely after being let into a good Samaritan's home and finally, a break-in at a nearby home.

Arriving officers found a screaming woman who had fled the last home with two children while her mate confronted the intruder.

Thompson says officers went inside, ordered everyone out and saw the armed resident coming down a hallway. One officer shot the 35-year-old man several times, but he's expected to survive.

Officers then detained the intruder.

[That's all there is to the story.]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/breakingnews/97088.php

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Rugerlvr
September 18, 2008, 07:28 PM
Sounds like there needs to be an investigation. I certainly don't have enough info to make any kind of a judgment.

IBTL.

Loosedhorse
September 18, 2008, 07:41 PM
A tee shirt that says GOOD GUY or HOME OWNER --or maybe the simple DON'T SHOOT--to help unconfuse responding officers.

When the police arrive, stay put. And don't point your gun at them. And do what they tell you. And if the attack's over, put the gun down or in its holster. :)

Best prayers for the guy and his family.

SCKimberFan
September 18, 2008, 07:57 PM
[That's all there is to the story.]

No, that's all there is to the report. There is a lot more to the story.

Officers'Wife
September 18, 2008, 07:59 PM
The LEO saw a guy with a gun and made a judgment call. With what is told I can't really blame or condone.

Selena

Loomis
September 18, 2008, 08:00 PM
Maybe cops should all start looking like cops again too. That might help unconfuse a situation too.

Chipperman
September 18, 2008, 08:15 PM
Limited info provided, but it sounds like the Police were not at fault here.

Good reason not to detain a burglar in your home, if you catch my drift. Once the threat has been dealt with, you can put away the gun so as not to be a target of the Po-Po.

BikerNut
September 18, 2008, 08:30 PM
A friend of mine used to be an undercover detective. He and 3-4 fellow officers had just raided a house and made a big drug bust, and the perps raised their hands and made no resistance. Everything went perfect, until...

Before the bust, the rookie cop was told to cover the back door, in case anyone tried to escape. He got antsy waiting out there, burst through the back door, saw a silhouette of someone (my friend) holding a gun, and fired.

My friend went down with a bullet through-and-through, which missed his heart by a fraction of an inch.

Another cop covering another room of the house heard the shot, came into the kitchen and saw a silhouette of someone (the rookie cop) with a gun and fired. The rookie went down gutshot.

The drug dealers probably enjoyed the show.

Both cops got rushed to the hospital and both survived.

Even cops make mistakes. And when you fear for your life, like cops have to do all the time, you can get a nervous and twitchy trigger finger.

BruceRDucer
September 18, 2008, 08:55 PM
/

A tee shirt that says GOOD GUY or HOME OWNER --or maybe the simple DON'T SHOOT--to help unconfuse responding officers.---LoosedHorse


Well, did you consider a Beanie Cap with a propellor?

Bad guys never wear those!:neener::neener::neener:

ColinthePilot
September 18, 2008, 09:39 PM
Thats one thing I never thought about. My plan for a home intruder is to confront him with gun drawn and order him to freeze, maybe get on the ground while I keep him covered and call the cops. I never intend to physically detain him since A) I'm not trained in detention techniques, and B) A gun is a ranged weapon and I fully intend to use it at a safe range. The question this story presents me with is what do I do when the cops do arrive and I'm essentially holding the BG at gunpoint? The best I can think of is be very specific with the 911 operator and describe what I'm wearing, possibly my location in the apartment, and that I am armed, so the cops know that I'm the good guy.

Loomis
September 18, 2008, 10:20 PM
That situation should never even happen, colin!

If you are threatened, you shoot until you no longer feel threatened. There's no such thing as "holding him at gunpoint". Doing so makes you the aggressor. Either shoot the bastard or don't pull your gun at all.

I'm not a lawyer though, so don't think of this as legal advice.

larry_minn
September 19, 2008, 12:37 AM
Loomis IMO and from what I have learned that is not good advice. (at least in MN) IF I followed that "advice" There would have been a College student dead 18yrs ago. I would have gone to court for (manslaughter, neg homicide,etc) Plus I would have to live with knowing I killed a youth who was playing a prank. No thanks.

Things change QUICK. One second you MIGHT be justified to use deadly force and half a second later its NOT.... I would guess most folks draw/aim/fire would take over 2 seconds. (from concealment)

loneviking
September 19, 2008, 01:03 PM
There's an old saying that could have helped prevent this--if you shoot someone, you be the FIRST one to call 911. Even if you're not first, call 911 and tell dispatch what you're doing; give 'em your physical description; your location and stay on the line with 'em when the cops get there!

Mr White
September 19, 2008, 01:12 PM
A tee shirt that says GOOD GUY or HOME OWNER --or maybe the simple DON'T SHOOT--to help unconfuse responding officers.I was thinking of a t-shirt with the famous Nixon picture and the words "I AM NOT A CROOK!!!" in big neon orange letters.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
September 19, 2008, 01:39 PM
That's you should shoot an intruder---that way there's no gray area.

mgkdrgn
September 19, 2008, 01:51 PM
If I remember correctly, police are 5 - 7 X more likely to shoot a "good guy" or bystander than are CCW holders. They arrive after the initial action and things are a bit more jumbled about.

If you are going to have a gun drawn when they arrive, you had better make sure they have some way to know who you are.

wyocarp
September 19, 2008, 02:00 PM
With an intruder in my house, I wouldn't have a problem with treating him like a grizzly or a wolf, SSS. But in the event someone else is going to call the cops about a gunshot, be sure to call them yourself and explain that the intruder is dead and you are armed in your own house, generally you should have plenty of time before they arrive unless you like near a cafe that is open all night or a donut shop.

OOOXOOO
September 19, 2008, 02:03 PM
It probably would not have ended with the homeowner shot if he spoke English. I belive from the reports I have heard from local news that this contributed to him getting shot.

wyocarp
September 19, 2008, 02:17 PM
Well, if he speaks Spanish and not English, then ... some days might end this way.

Mrs. Armoredman
September 19, 2008, 02:23 PM
Sounds like a confussing situation. He had to make a judgement call. He more than likely didn't know the person with the gun was the home owner. I think they should invesgate this situation with a fine tooth comb.

My prayers are with the man and his family.

velobard
September 20, 2008, 03:57 PM
According to the reports I've read, police were responding to two calls from a nearby home in the neighborhood when they heard a scream and glass breaking at the house where this shooting occurred. A woman came running out yelling, He's got a gun, he's got a gun!" Three police went up the the house and announced themselves. The officers saw a man with a gun pointed at an upward angle come around the corner and turn toward them. That, of course, turned out to be the resident. A police officer fired 6 shots and he was hit twice, once in the leg and once in the abdomen. The suspect was later found in a back bedroom, bleeding from injuries when he had crawled in through a front window after shooting it out.

Most of the details are in these stories:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/09/19/20080919shooting0919.html
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/09/18/20080918kpnx-policeshooting.html

I see this incident as a cautionary tale for both police and private gun owners. The police were entering a high stress situation with a reported gunman. The resident may not have responded correctly to the arrival of law enforcement, but we don't have details on that.

Even if the police announced themselves properly, there are multiple factors that may have affected the situation.
-If any shots were fired in the home before police entered (don't know if that happened, but it's something to think about for future situations) he may have had temporary hearing loss from the indoor gunfire.
-Police didn't have a description of the resident and didn't even know for sure there was one in the house.
-The resident was not expecting police to arrive at that point, so they probably caught him by surprise.
-There are reports that the resident may have had a language barrier.
-The resident was almost surely in the midst of an adrenaline dump, with all the phisiologic effects that come with it: tunnel vision, the "time warp" effect, auditory exclusion, and a host of other phisiologic reactions to the situation.
-Because of all of this, since he had no reason to expect the arrival of the police, it may have taken him a moment to process that information when they first came into view, while he was focused on trying to find and deal with the intruder.

While there may have been mistakes on both sides, they all happened in a very brief time line.

So what lessons can come out of this? Unfortunately, the police can only train the officers, not the general public. It's a very realistic possibility that they may enter a home with an armed resident.

I also believe the officer involved in this shooting is having a rough time right now. He knows that he shot an innocent man. I'm sure he's dealing with "what-if's" and second thoughts. Hopefully, that won't later wind up causing a deadly hesitation if he's facing a situation where he needs to take action to protect himself or others.

bogie
September 20, 2008, 04:24 PM
If it's at night, the 911 call will probably go like...

"Tell your guys not to shoot the naked fat guy with the shotgun, okay?"

LaEscopeta
September 20, 2008, 06:01 PM
Intruder in my house? My goal is protect my family and my self. What happens to the intruder I don't really care. He leaves (with or with out stealing anything), the police catch him or not, it's all the same to me as long as I obtain the primany goal. Our local police not not want private citzens trying to do their job for them and detaining criminals; they are happy when we give them a good description and are good witnesses in court. If the intruder forces me to shoot him in order to protect me and mine I will, but only if the he makes it so I have no other option. I will not shoot just because I have a legal right to.

And I want my family and myself protected from not just the intruder but also the police who repond and enter an unfamiliar house, where they don't know anyone. I will stay put and stay on the phone with the 911 operator, so the operator can relay our location in the house to the cops. When the cops have cleared the rest of the house and are ready to check our location, I believe their standard proceedure is call for the residents to come out first. After they tell me their badges numbers (that I have asked the 911 operator for) I intend to open the breach of my shotgun and lay it down, and advance slowly to the cops with my hands in plain sight. My family comes out next.

IMHO, YMMV, TEOTWAWKI, etc.

Bula
February 24, 2009, 01:00 PM
Any updates on this one?

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