Stiffed for the shipping by FFL dealer....


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woad_yurt
September 19, 2008, 03:09 AM
I recently bought a gun on Gunbroker and, when I got it, I saw that it had been altered, and badly, at that. Nowhere in the listing did it say that the gun was altered. It was a .32S&W that had had the chambers crudely drilled out all the way through the cylinder. No throat left at all. I don't think the guy knew until I told him. I sent it back and the guy didn't refund my shipping. I paid to have it shipped to me and back to him. When I contacted him, he said "Auction states money back, does not include shipping, Tks Tom."
What it really said was "Return Policy 72 hours." I didn't change my mind; the gun was no good. He's a licensed dealer, too.

I am steamed. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get the rest of my money back?

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freakshow10mm
September 19, 2008, 03:18 AM
Return policy was 72 hours but according to the seller it states refund will be purchase price only, not shipping costs. Fairly common. Not sure you can do much if anything.

Link to auction listing?

striker3
September 19, 2008, 03:21 AM
If the item was not as described, then it is a fraudulent sale. Shipping both ways should be refunded.

Rubble
September 19, 2008, 05:18 AM
Since there is no link to the auction its hard to have a complete opinion. You need to get Gunbroker involved with respect to the product net being as advertised, unless of course it said "as is" somewhere. Thats the only recourse I see. Of course giving a bad review will help others.

woad_yurt
September 19, 2008, 01:02 PM
Someone took the chambers and drilled them all the way through, leaving no throat at all. They probably did it generations ago to use .32S&W longs when they hit the scene. But, the case diameter is quite a bit larger (.020") than the bullet diameter in this caliber. It's a gun that would shoot at half velocity due to a big lack of seal around the bullet in the chamber.

The 72 hour return policy doesn't apply in this case as I didn't change my mind and cancel the sale on a whim. The gun was defective and the listing mentioned nothing about it. Anyone looking at this listing would assume that the gun was good to go.

Here's the listing:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=108266152

Bubbles
September 19, 2008, 01:29 PM
From the ad:

Description for Item # 108266152


H&R safety hammer, double & single action. Exc bore & action, .32 S&W solid frame, small chip missing bottom left grip panel, sn 23191.includes vintage Hunter Holster. FFL or C&R required, S&H 14.00 orig 48

If I were the seller I'd reimburse you for shipping both ways since the gun was not as described.

Having said that, you have to remember that most 01 FFL's are not gunsmiths or machinists, and they may not recognize the kind of alteration or damage that you're describing. For this reason a lot won't deal in used guns or trades, only new ones where if there's a problem they can refer the purchaser to the manufacturer for warranty work.

freakshow10mm
September 19, 2008, 01:32 PM
The cylinder isn't part of the bore.

Norinco982lover
September 19, 2008, 01:56 PM
it is a fraudulent sale. Reply to him and tell him it you understand that he may have missed that it has been altered but since he did not state that it is misrepresented and you will need shipping both ways paid for. Then report his reply to Gunbroker.

ants
September 19, 2008, 02:08 PM
Caveat emptor ('buyer beware') generally prevails in common law where there is no specific agreement to remedy the dispute. Unless you can find a law regulating the return of shipping charges, I don't think you are protected.

HOWEVER I found this in the sellers feedback:


groundpilot A+(318) 11/19/2002 11:10 AM 5774575 Seller
A+: A totally professional crew! Found unknown problem with item, asked to return, granted - no questions asked and even postage was refunded. Run like a business. A business that cares! "double A"!!!
The seller has refunded shipping costs in the past when the item had an unknown problem. Remind him of his past kindness, and that you will give him positive feedback like 'groundpilot' if he refunds your shipping.

woad_yurt
September 19, 2008, 03:54 PM
He's not answering my emails or returning my phone calls.

I've already told him that I'm assuming that he didn't know it had been messed with. Nevertheless, it's not my fault that this sale went south. He simply sold faulty goods without a mention that it was faulty. Any reasonable person reading that listing would assume that the gun was good.

It's an integrity issue. I have worked for myself for a looong time and when I unknowingly supply/install faulty stuff for a customer, it's on me. It happens. A tiled over brand new but very defective shower valve body comes to mind. I had to bear the cost of replacement & a new tile job. That's the price of doing business.

When a customer does nothing wrong and something is screwed up, I can't imagine telling the customer that they have to bear the cost of making it right while the one who supplied the faulty item, me, gets off scot free. I don't have the nerve. Now, if the customer supplied something that they wanted me to install and it turned out to be defective, that would be a different story entirely.

atblis
September 19, 2008, 04:11 PM
I 'd give him a little more time, and then I'd leave negative feedback. Sounds like he deserves it.

On gunbroker, if somebody has one or more negatives regarding item condition, I won't bid on their stuff (if they've got one negative and have sold alot, ... maybe).

Aguila Blanca
September 19, 2008, 08:09 PM
The 72 hour return policy doesn't apply in this case as I didn't change my mind and cancel the sale on a whim. The gun was defective and the listing mentioned nothing about it. Anyone looking at this listing would assume that the gun was good to go.
The 72-hour return policy certainly does apply. It's not for only if you change your mind. The 72 hours is an inspection period, to allow the buyer enough time to determine if the gun is or is not as they expected.

In your case, it was not as expected. The ad certainly conveyed to me the impression that the gun was in excellent condition, so if the cylinder was as bad as you say, IMHO the gun was misrepresented.

However, the terms in the ad do not discuss refunds of shipping costs, and apparently you didn't ask. Morally I believe the seller should reimburse your return shipping, at least. Legally I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

kingpin008
September 19, 2008, 08:40 PM
Woad - would you mind posting the name of the FFL's business, for those of us who might come in contact with them in the future? I'm in Maryland, and frequently looking for new shops. I'd like to avoid businesses that don't play fair, if it turns out that that's what this fella is indeed trying to do.

woad_yurt
September 19, 2008, 11:44 PM
I did post his info here for a few minutes but I'm now editing it out for the time being. He hasn't left feedback for me on Gunbroker yet and mine is presently 100% perfect. I'd like to keep it that way. I did complain to Gunbroker's customer service, however. I'll post it (his info) when I hear back from them.

A few years back, I never got my item from a now-banned seller on eBay, so I posted a negative feedback. He, in turn, left a negative for me, wrecking my 100% rating. I haven't yet posted feedback on this particular guy, fearing that he's going to smear me in return. I told the Gunbroker folks about my worries regarding vindictive feedback from him if I do leave a negative. I'll let you folks know his info in a few days at the most. I just want to see what they say first.

Just to be safe everybody, so you don't get stung like me: Don't buy a gun in Maryland for 2-3 days until I out the specific guy. :rolleyes:

atblis
September 20, 2008, 02:35 PM
Dude, that guy has horrible feedback on gunbroker. You should have read the negatvies

11 negatives! Many regarding condition of item.

No way in hell I'd even consider for a second buying from him

F: The gun was not as described, when I requested a refund he said "no problem". Unfortunately he did not follow through. Poor emails, and forget calling the guy.

Rifle described with bright shiny bore. The bore was very frosted and stock was cracked. I was never reimbursed for shipping when they promised too. Rude and combatitive on the phone.

D: Stated gun to be in fine shape BUT boths sides of slide had SSN# at some time engraved on it !!! Hard to see but they are there......

F: got screwed out of 135bucks and never got a working gun ! if you have trouble with him his #is 301 599 0800 0r 1477 . hes the king of excusses and will not refund all your$ stay clear!!!

C: No problem with transaction however seller faled to answer emails after sail was completed dealing with a quality issue on the gun.


D: Item was received severely damaged. Packaging material used was minimal. Notified seller, waiting for response.

F: SELLER SAID THIS GUN HAD ONLY BEEN TEST-FIRED AT FACTORY!!!LIES GUN WAS WORE-OUT TIMEING OFF, MASSIVE LEAD BUILD FROM SHAVING! BUYERS BEWARE!!TOOK ME FOREVER TO GET A PARTIAL REFUND!

etc. etc.

kingpin008
September 20, 2008, 04:35 PM
Uh, wow. I'd really like to know who this guy is. I'm planning on hitting the local gun show in a few days, and it'd be great to know who to steer clear of.

stolivar
September 20, 2008, 05:26 PM
Maryland Small Arms Range
9311 Old Marlboro Pike
Washington, DC 20001
301-599-0800

Snagglepuss
September 20, 2008, 05:29 PM
You should go to the retail sales and feedback forum and repost. This guy sounds like a jerk.

mgkdrgn
September 20, 2008, 09:49 PM
Maryland Small Arms Range
9311 Old Marlboro Pike
Washington, DC 20001


I don't know if this is "the guy" but that stuff above is a mis-match.

1) there are no gun ranges in DC
2) the phone is a Maryland, not a DC number (301 not 202)
3) prior to a few days ago, there were NO FFL's in DC that dealt with the general public

Correct information is:
Maryland Small Arms Range
9311 Old Marlboro Pike
Upper Marlboro, MD 20772
Phone: 1-800-792-6434
301-599-0800
Fax: 301-599-9642
Email: SALES@MSAR.COM
http://www.msar.com/

stolivar
September 20, 2008, 11:36 PM
enough said.


their fault not mine.


steve:what:

22-rimfire
September 21, 2008, 12:05 AM
Sellers like that make if bad for honest reputable sellers. Years ago and prior to GunBroker, I have purchased guns from out of state dealers. Never had a problem then. There was no way to post bad feed back then either. Folks were just more honest.

woad_yurt
September 23, 2008, 10:26 AM
I'm back again. Sorry I took so long.

Gunbroker ID:
9311bargains

And the name on the FFL:
NWI Inc.
9311 Old Marlboro Pike
Upper Marlboro, MD 20772

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