The Ultimate Democrat & Liberal Thread


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dubious
September 19, 2008, 05:19 AM
This thread is for pro 2A folks who are reluctantly voting for Obama (or any other liberal candidate), even though he has an awful record on our dear 2nd amendment. My Republican / Libertarian brothers and sisters, PLEASE.... take The High Road on this one. If you don't have anything constructive to contribute, just go find another of the thousands of threads on this forum. Can this thread even exist without getting locked down? Time will tell.

Don't get us shut down, gunnies! Why? Because we're gunnies too! Consider us your guys on the inside! Think about how powerful it would be if the Dems dropped gun banning from the pressure of their own political base.


Admins, please PM me how I can make this thread more in line with the Activism guidelines.

Ok... I'm a gun totin liberal. I don't want another assault weapons ban but I don't want Sarah Palin to be the next president. Frankly, I'm more concerned with other issues. That said, this thread is about guns and gun activism, not the other issues that matter to me. I don't want to hear any talk about Obama's platform that's not gun related nor any complaints about the McCain / Pailin ticket thats not gun related.


This thread is about how to persuade other non 2a liberals who may not be aware of the implications of banning firearms. I have to defend my gun ownership with liberal friends and family all the time. How do you approach these situations?

What can we do to make the Democratic party drop the issue of gun banning? If you're on this forum, you must recognize that is a ridiculous issue and certainly worth dropping in the light of the larger issues. If I was Obama I'd be shooting rubber duckies in the swimming pool with an ar-15 just to show the elephants I know how to have a good time. And I WOULD be having a good time!

Anyways, I welcome you democrats and liberals to the Ultimate Democrat & Liberal thread.

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Marcus84
September 19, 2008, 05:30 AM
These are two good reads to show your anti-gun friends. I'm not sure how long this thread will last however.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/8/122221/2900/784/564662

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/21/19133/5152/392/496931

dubious
September 19, 2008, 05:39 AM
Thanks for the good natured post. After reading those, I'm properly riled up!

HIcarry
September 19, 2008, 05:56 AM
The "Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment" should be required reading......

wideym
September 19, 2008, 06:05 AM
Democrats just don't seem to understand the issue of guns, the 2nd Amendment, or gun owners. Even here in the South where gun ownership is high among Democrats, the tide is turning. Cities are becoming more populated and rural areas depopulated or suburbs with city attitudes.

They are more interested in the high cost of health care, housing, enviroment, ad nausim... than the Constitution's 2nd ammendment, one they rarely if ever excersie. It's just not on their radar or when it is, it's about "getting rid of bad guns".

Pro 2nd Ammendment Democrats are like birds that can't fly when compared to birds that can. Out of the millions of bird only a small percentage can't fly and are easy pickings for those who can... ie the chicken and the hawk.

hso
September 19, 2008, 06:53 AM
This one doesn't belong in Activism and I'm having trouble seeing how it even belongs in Activism Discussion. The question of how to reach left/dem/lib friends with our pro-2A message has been a General Gun Discussion forum item ever since the AWB, but I'm going to move it into AD for the moment in hopes of a more civil constructive discussion than we've seen in the past.

All I see the OP is asking is what are the arguments that will reach a certain demographic. My problem is I don't see a recognizable demographic identified. There are plenty of people that identify themselves as Democrats that aren't anything like the cartoon leftest painted by many on the Right. Church going, socially conservative union members who's families work for heavy industry are "typical" Democrats too. They see government as having a populist role counterbalancing large businesses and employers. There are plenty of folks that identify themselves as liberal that aren't anything like the cartoon liberal caricatures either.

So exactly what group are you trying to reach so the message can be tailored to reach them?

ilbob
September 19, 2008, 09:17 AM
I am not sure how you reach liberals. Most are urban dwellers who have never shot a gun in their life. And most think the government is there to protect them so no need to do it themselves. Maybe start by educating them about reality. Once they are educated though, they probably won't be liberals anymore so you will have "lost" a liberal to the dark side. :)

Seriously, liberals care far more about other issues like abortion and "free" health care (and other government freebies) than they do about guns. I suspect they go along with the anti-gun rhetoric just because its part of the Democratic party line and gun control comes along with the freebies they want. Most probably do not have any strong feelings one way or the other about guns. Its just not that big of a deal to them. It is to us so we naturally expect it is a big deal to everyone. But my guess is that no more than 5% of the population is virulently anti-gun.

buzz_knox
September 19, 2008, 09:26 AM
What can we do to make the Democratic party drop the issue of gun banning?

Repeal the 2nd Amendment and destroy all guns not owned by liberals. That's the only way you're party will ever give it up. Oh, they'll let individuals make valiant "stands in favor" of the RKBA when it's election time, but they put the most virulent anti-gun individuals they possibly can in leadership positions.

The RKBA is anathema to an agenda that requires the use or threat of force to insure that wealth redistribution and thought correction (two points clearly articulated by the current Dem's presidential ticket) are conducted in a manner consistent with the Democratic leaderships objectives.

Ultimately, the way to convince little "l" liberals that the RKBA is important is to convince them they've been misled for years by the big "L" Liberals on all the other issues.

ranger335v
September 19, 2008, 09:51 AM
"... I'm a gun totin liberal. I don't want another assault weapons ban but I don't want Sarah Palin to be the next president."

Ok. But, have you asked yourself what would happen, not just what you do and don't want to happen? On what do you base your wants that makes you comfortable with giving Democrats total control of the reigns in DC?

You don't want Mrs. Palin to be the next president. Ok. So you feel more comfortable with Mr. Biden protecting your rights, not just the 2nd but all of them? I just don't understand that.

I rarely listen to what pollicicans say. None of them will admit, "I are going to take your guns and bleed you white with taxes and there won't be thing you can do to stop me." They ALL promise the moon, all at low or no cost to you, only the mean ol' "rich folks", but that's never the way it works. So I look at the record of the candidate instead of TV adds and media hype, it's all that I trust to guide me to what they will do in the future.

From the clear record, it seems obvious to me that both Obama AND Biden will restrict our guns in ways we can't quite expect but will come anyway - stiff taxes and difficult registration policies probably - and they will bleed us of our income to give more to those who don't work at all. Ask them; "How much do you need to raise taxes until we can have a booming economy?" and "How many guns should honest people be ready to give up to reduce inner-city crime by dishonest people by 20%?"

I believe Joe when he says, "It's patriotic to pay taxes" but doubt he expects to limit that benefit just to rich patriotic people. He AND his party feel that anyone who has anything left after taxes IS rich and they have a duty to take it and give it to those with less - those are HIS words, not mine!

The record shows that neither McCain nor Palin will do that. Neither is at all beholden to the "old boys" network at all, as Obama and Biden are. And it's that party power behind the scenes that destroy the promises of many otherwise good men.

Vote Obama now if you must, but you WILL repent later. So will the rest of us.

ilbob
September 19, 2008, 10:15 AM
becasue this thread is teetering on the edge of being closed, i started an aps thread to discuss it further.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=14841.0

JImbothefiveth
September 19, 2008, 10:22 AM
What can we do to make the Democratic party drop the issue of gun banning?
You're not going to like this..:uhoh:
don't vote for them, until they run a pro-gun candidate.
They will listen, probably once they lose pennsylvania.

Crow1108
September 19, 2008, 11:34 AM
The problem is, the RKBA isn't really a liberal ideal: It's a libertarian one. There is no way you are going to convince a politician (even through grass-roots activism) whose ilk consistantly says such gems as ""We're going to hammer guns on the anvil of relentless legislative strategy! We're going to beat guns into submission", "Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe", and "You want an assault rifle? Join the Army!".

Don't get me wrong, I applaud your effort. It's a noble one, but unfortunately too many people who vote the democrat ticket are set in their prejudices to enact a true change. This is one example: One of my coworkers is dead-set on Obama, and is completely dead-set in his prejudices against firearms. We constantly discuss with him the ineffectiveness of gun control. We even offered to take him to the range, but he always turns us down. His prejudice (like, I am sure, many are) is deep routed: his father was hunting (not wearing the orange apparel available today), and someone fired at him. The round narrowly missed him, and after that day, his father got rid of all his guns, and discouraged any talk of guns as he was growing up.

elChupacabra!
September 19, 2008, 11:35 AM
Yeah, I have to agree with everyone who says "don't vote for them." Ultimately you have to pick your priorities and vote accordingly... so if the ability to defend yourself and your family against violence, and your liberty against tyrrany, are less of a priority to you than the other social issues, you may vote Democrat with a clear conscience. If you hold the safety of your family and the security of your liberty most dear, you have no choice but to oppose any candidate or party which would threaten either.

Honestly, if Democrats could defend the 2A like they defend the rest of the constitution, my votes would be right there with them. Unfortunately, I believe the Socialist agenda has too thoroughly saturated the Democratic platform, which would really expand government's power and control over citizens (read: subjects), and an armed populace is incompatible with that goal.

Essentially, if the Democrats could divest themselves of their Socialist ideas, they would be the party we all might vote for, considering their committment to defending most civil liberties.

In the absence of a good Democratic party to vote for, though, we have only a Libertarian party that really represents many of our ideals. Unfortunately, they are too weak to win at the moment, so voting Republican is the best we can do to oppose the Socialist platform. It's a lose-lose, for sure.

Unfortunately, I don't ever see a strong, Constitutional party ever rising again. It's Entropy - things go downhill. This is the most liberty we will ever experience in any of our lifetimes, and it's going to diminish from here. Enjoy it while it lasts guys.

MarshallDodge
September 19, 2008, 11:46 AM
dubious, if you think Biden and Obama just want to ban assault rifles, you are seriously mistaken, they want anything that is a semi-auto gone and maybe more. Obama did not even support the citizens of Washington DC in their quest to keep a firearm for protection.

Assault weapon is a mean sounding term and makes the uneducated cringe so it is an easy target for banning. Once they ban the AW what will be next?

There are pro-gun democrats, unfortunately Obama, Clinton, Biden, Kennedy, Feinstein, Boxer, and Pelosi are not one of them. If you want to get actively involved I would suggest that you could help the democrat party with nominating pro-gun candidates.

JImbothefiveth
September 19, 2008, 12:00 PM
the ability to defend yourself and your family against violence
Bingo! After all, I think we all want what is best for us and our family!:)

highorder
September 19, 2008, 12:12 PM
There are pro-gun democrats, unfortunately Obama, Clinton, Biden, Kennedy, Feinstein, Boxer, and Pelosi are not one of them. If you want to get actively involved I would suggest that you could help the democrat party with nominating pro-gun candidates.


Speaking of pro-gun Democrats, I give you Ohio Governor Ted Strickland. Ted voted:

To Repeal restrictions on law-abiding citizens owning firearms. (Nov 1996)
Voted YES on prohibiting product misuse lawsuits on gun manufacturers. (Oct 2005)
Voted YES on prohibiting suing gunmakers & sellers for gun misuse. (Apr 2003)
Voted NO on decreasing gun waiting period from 3 days to 1. (Jun 1999)
Rated A by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun rights voting record. (Dec 2003)

hso
September 19, 2008, 12:19 PM
Check your recent NRA magazines (I get all 3 at home now that I've signed my wife and daughter up) and you'll actually find NRA endorsing a couple of Democrats in house races.

I think the best approach is to try to make sure that local and state and House Democratic candidates are told loud and clear that the anti-2A stance is a third rail issue in their primaries and that you and your friends are not only willing to contribute money to Democrats who support the individual right to keep and bear arms, but that you're willing to volunteer time to work for the candidate who supports your RKBA. Work at the state level and on the primaries for the Congress critters who agree and the party as a whole will shift. Ignore them or villify them, but do nothing to put like-minded Democrats in their positions and you won't see a shift in the party platform.

benEzra
September 19, 2008, 01:06 PM
Here is a resource that might be useful:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=97165&mesg_id=97165

Another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=134977&mesg_id=134977

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=134977&mesg_id=135735

No trolls/forum wars, please. Most of those threads are old, so please don't sign up and resurrect them.

And more detailed info on the "assault weapon" fraud:

http://www.tribtalk.com/showthread.php?t=16466

If you look at my Journal on DU, I am throwing a few posts in there that may be helpful.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/benEzra

TT
September 19, 2008, 03:03 PM
Frankly, I'm more concerned with other issues.

This statement is a good indicator of why it is a poor investment of effort to try to win Dems to the RKBA movement. We need reliable votes, not people who put their desire for free government cookies, gentle treatment for terrorists, and the approval of Europeans ahead of the Second Amendment.

What can we do to make the Democratic party drop the issue of gun banning?

This would be another waste of effort- the philosophical groundwork for the Democratic Party is communitarianism, and individual self-defense is anathema to communitarianism.

kmbrman
September 19, 2008, 04:15 PM
What is more scarry than an Obama presidency for gun owners ? He has stated before that he is against private citizens owning firearms. Another red flag would be his future Supreme Court picks. Not a one could be trusted as they would be of the radical left persuasion , and be sure they would try to overturn the 2nd Ammendment ,or place such restrictions on gun owners that it would not be practical to own a firearm.

hso
September 19, 2008, 05:50 PM
Here's the original question-


Ok... I'm a gun totin liberal. ... This thread is about how to persuade other non 2a liberals who may not be aware of the implications of banning firearms. I have to defend my gun ownership with liberal friends and family all the time. How do you approach these situations?

What can we do to make the Democratic party drop the issue of gun banning? If you're on this forum, you must recognize that is a ridiculous issue and certainly worth dropping in the light of the larger issues.

For those of you who have kept a level head and tried to contribute, congratulations for following the rules here in Activism and for staying on the high road.

For those of you, both left and right, who just couldn't find any way to come up with any constructive ideas to contribute and couldn't resist the urge to bash the "opposition", your posts have disappeared.

ArfinGreebly
September 19, 2008, 06:30 PM
The benEzra approach seems about as viable as any.

The initial approach of "this issue is costing us elections" will get some traction. It may actually get more than some.

However.

"Promise her anything, but give her Arpège" only works for perfume.

If you're going to take the "this issue is hurting our greater cause" approach, you have to follow up with "it's the right thing to do."

It's not enough to adopt a slogan or make promises. You have to deliver. If the slogan and promise get the votes, and the party leaders renege, the long term damage would be staggering.

So, yes, encourage the party leadership to reconsider their stance for the simple reason that it's killing them in elections. But also make sure they deliver on that promise.

It may actually be necessary to undercut this approach with a more basic change. You see, if you have to "put a gun" to the candidate's head to get him to back off disarming the nation, then all you've done is conceal his ultimate motivation. Sooner or later thats going to show up and ignite some serious disenchantment.

With that in mind, it may only really work with a different candidate, and that will most likely not be an option for this cycle.

So, two things, 1) promote the realization that disarming the citizenry via gun control is a losing strategy, and 2) promote the realization that disarming the citizenry is the wrong thing to do. And then, follow that up with the selection of a candidate who actually believes what he's selling.

That last may be the hard part.

Good luck.

XavierBreath
September 19, 2008, 08:02 PM
I understand where you are coming from, even if I can't understand why any gun owner would vote for Obama.

I have found that the best way to educate anti-gun types is through conversion. Often their loathing of firearms is based on fear. Offer to take them shooting. Take them shooting in a non-stressful environment, and shoot a .22 pistol. Make it enjoyable. Fun. Not competitive.

Then, once they have conquered their fear of shooting, talk to them about the benefits of shooting and firearms. Relaxation, sport, effective self defense. Take them shooting a few more times. Be a charitable host, not an argumentative one. Here's my recipe for conversions (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/09/recipe-for-marksmanship-and-maturation.html).

Finally, when they are agreeable, offer to assist them in the selection of their own firearm. Convert them to gun ownership.

If we build a groundswell of gun owners through conversions to gun ownership within the Democratic Party, one that will vote for their guns, the issue of gn banning and anti-gun legislation will be off the table for the party itself. We have that opportunity. It would benefit us to look at it seriously.

bogie
September 19, 2008, 08:46 PM
There's a lot of gun owners who are union members, or who just find the wacky religious nutcases who joined the Republican party in the seventies to be repugnant... Frankly, some of those folks scare me. I -do not- like the idea of someone with the ideology of a Falwell or a Robertson being in control of my life. Not thrilled by Obama either... They're all doing what is "good for the common man" because they are true believers. And maybe I don't want what they think is good for me. Altho I think Obama is doing it because he is a career politician, and is basically just working for The Machine, like he has been taught.

IMHO, if the "right" would lose the theocrats, and say things like "Hey, we don't give a darn what y'all do behind closed doors," they'd likely gain a 10-15% vote margin from "right-leaning" democrats - the folks who are conservative financially and middle of the road socially. Call it the "freedom party."

IMHO, one way to get "back in touch" with democrats is to infiltrate - If you are in a small town, run for office. Then run for something else.

Loomis
September 19, 2008, 08:50 PM
Bogie, You aren't supposed to vote for the person who you want to be in control of your life. You are suppose to vote for the person that will stay the * out of your life.

Cannonball888
September 19, 2008, 09:33 PM
Democrats aka liberals were a different breed eons ago. JFK was even an NRA member. Ronald Reagan was asked in 1962 why he left the Democratic party. He said "I didn't leave them. They left me." The Dem party has long been infiltrated by socialists and Marxists. Obama and Clinton are prime examples, for those who didn't know.

benEzra
September 19, 2008, 09:33 PM
ArfinGreebly, well said. That is my hope. And as you said, #2 is the hard part.

There are some encouraging signs (Ted Strickland, Jim Webb, Bob Casey come to mind). The national party leadership still doesn't "get it," but it's dawning on many at the state level, IMO.

MDMadrid
September 19, 2008, 09:39 PM
You are suppose to vote for the person that will stay the * out of your life.

very well said!

Loomis
September 20, 2008, 12:16 AM
The last decent democrat prez was JFK. The last decent republican prez was ray-gun ronnie.

One was assassinated, the other almost assassinated.

Seems to be about 20 years between the two. I suppose it's the democrats turn. We are due for the next really good prez, but It's fairly obvious it ain't happening this time around, and probably not the next time around either. Then again, maybe it's hopeless.

Getting elected to something is now seen as a path to wealth. It didn't used to be that way. I'm told that in the seventies, if you drove into DC, all the cars with were plain looking ford sedans. Now days, all the cars in DC are top of the line luxury cars and SUVs.

That's not good. THat indicates a fundamental shift in the way government folks view themselves. Before, they were public servants. Now they are royalty.

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 20, 2008, 12:29 AM
When everything the party believes is based on Government being the best solution, it's hard to see how personal possession of firearms and personal responsibility for self defense fits into that platform.

bogie
September 20, 2008, 01:17 AM
It's basically a photogenic issue that will get votes.

If a politician -really- wanted to save lives, for the children, they'd outlaw private swimming pools, and not allow anyone under the age of 21 to have a driver's license.

Infiltrate. Run for office. Odds are that you're just as qualified, if not more qualified, than the fellow who is your alderman, your commissioner, your mayor, whatever... You're probably more ethical. Take him or her on. Or talk your wife into running.

Infiltrate. Take the parties to the center.

XavierBreath
September 20, 2008, 01:26 AM
Due to the inability to remain a thread on activism, instead becoming one of constant drifting back towards political discussion, this thread is closed.

Read this sticky (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=271365).

This forum is a sub-forum of the Activism forum.

Since there is no discussion allowed in Activism, to keep from clouding the important stuff, take your discussion here.

If you need to hammer out ideas, or plans of action, use this forum.

This isn't L&P. This isn't a place for big philosophy or thread drift. Keep on focus. This subforum is to plan. The main Activism forum is to act, and report.

hso
September 20, 2008, 10:05 AM
Well, we tried. Unfortunately the predictable closed minded "haters" and the "ooooo, politics!" crowd just were too numerous to make the thing worth keeping open.

The answers are all the same for the OP's question.

Follow Bogie's advice and infiltrate the organizations you want to change instead of speckling the windows with flecks of spittle as you scream invective at them from the outside.

Use all the logical arguments and facts on RKBA and gun prohibition when talking with personal contacts like BenEzra pointed out.

Convert undecideds and mild antis by getting them involved with shooting as a recreational activity to show them we're not dangerous nuts.

IOW, DO something instead of wringing our hands or writing them off.

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