[RM]

Why do people always seem to rave about the P7M8? Is there anything truly special or unique about this handgun? Or is this a case of a good gun that just has a strong "cult" following? To the skeptics: what similar handgun is just as good without the premium price tag? Thanks for any opinions.

[mete]

I bought my P7 long before it became a cult. It established a fine reputation because it is very well made, a unique and practical design, extremely reliable and extremely durable along with a fine trigger. When you carry a gun these are the things that you should look for rather than looking cool or being a cult gun.

[Marko Kloos]

To the skeptics: what similar handgun is just as good without the premium price tag?

You have touched upon the main reason for the cult status of the P&: there is no "similar" handgun out there. The P7 combines a bunch of good features in a design that is literally unique on the market.

There are pistols that are lighter, thinner, hold more rounds, are as accurate and reliable, and are almost as quick to bring into action, but there is no gun that combines all the good features of the P7 into one package.

[denfoote]

Some guys just like to squeeze things and when the wife or girlfriend isn't around...

Oh heck, just forget it!! :D

[Sean Smith]

Overweight, average sights, spongy trigger, prone to overheating, and has a poorly executed blue job that will rust on demand. Oh, and expensive.

:evil:

[Extremist]

:fire: Flame Bait!

James

[Tamara]

Not necessarily, Extremist.

Everything Marko said was true. So was everything Sean said. Like any other pistol, the P7 has its pluses and minuses. If you're looking for a sorta compact single-stack 9mm that's reliable and drives tacks, and don't mind learning the odd manual of arms, it may be just the bee's knees for you. On the other hand, if you want something in .45, or with a more conventional manual of arms, or a longer sight radius, or the ability to fire lead bullets, maybe it's not so hot.

Outstanding pistol? Yup. Perfect? No, but neither is anything else... ;)

[10-Ring]

I originally bought my P7M8 for its inherent safety. After shooting it, I just found it the nicest pistol I had shot. After 15 years of ownership, I've grown to appreciate the unique qualities of this pistol.

[OF]

Exotic Italian Sportscars: Why the love affair?

:)

- Gabe

[Skunkabilly]

I kinda refer to it as a bullpup pistol...it's a relatively small package but has a full 4" barrel, flat as heck (great for going tuckable), safe as heck, different as heck....I sure hate cleaning it though.

[gbelleh]

Here's why I rave about the P7M8:

Magazine changes are FAST!!
Accurate follow up shots are fast!
Accuracy is excellent.
Trigger is excellent.

Aside from those practical things, I just like the way it looks and the unique operation of the squeeze cocking mechanism is completely fascinating to me. It's also fun to shoot! It comes with me EVERY time I go to the range.

[dude]

Why the love affair with the P7??

...............because of the P7!
Get one and you will understand.

[Skunkabilly]

I sure with they made Novak sights for the girl though.

[duncan]

Accurate
High quality steel and manufacturing
German precision engineering'
Built like a tank
But deploys faster than any other 9mm pistol
And with a single action trigger
No extractor needed
Sub one inch groups at 25 yards offhand with my PSP - even thinner and lighter than the P7M8.

And now, the P7s are harder to find hence the big $$$$ to even get a used one.

If I could only have one 9mm handgun, my PSP would be the keeper.

Sell my Glocks, Sigs, Springfields, etc. But the PSP stays.:D

[Wildalaska]

No, but neither is anything else...

Sorry Tam...Browning High Power!

Anyway, P7s, I have owned dozens since they first came out...everything Sean said, heavy, overengineered, bulky, poor bluing, mall ninja aura etc.......but they are cool...

PS...dont get em dirty

WildtoomanylittlepartsAlaska

[CWL]

Because they look like this:

This photo of the internals was taken by it's owner K. Lunde. More pictures are available at this Cult of the P7 link:

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=003252

If you don't understand after this, you'll never understand.

[CWL]

Left closeup (with credit to K. Lunde):

[LFW]

I'd buy a P7 tomorrow if they didn't cost twice as much as they are worth. It's not that I can't scrape up the bucks, it's the principle of the thing. I waited a long time for the prices of the P5 and P5C to drop down where they belong before I bought them, and I guess I'll bide my time on the P7 too.--Leigh

[mete]

Wilalaska is strange , it took him "dozens" of P7s before he realized he didn't like them !! As for dirty - Ayoob did a reliability test firing 4500 rounds before the gun had to be cleaned. If you don't like your P7s send them to me , I'll give them a good home.

[cslinger]

Yeah it's kinda heavy for a 9mm.......
Yeah it gets a bit hot after a couple hundred rounds.....
Yeah the blueing may not be the best....
Yeah it costs more that the GNP of some small countries......
Yeah the magazines are made by a Austrian hermit named Han's who only makes about 10 a year.........

But for me I think it is about the most well thought out defensive handgun I have ever seen. It is extremely safe, while being extremely fast into action all while having that wonderful single action trigger. Accuracy is incredible and controls are just right for me.

The gun is robust, reliable, accurate, safe, concealable and just plan cool.

I bought mine simply because of the cool factor and I wanted to get the three German pistols from the Muinch Olympics trials. My P7 was meant to be more of a odd addition to the collection, nothing more.

What I found was it is simply a stellar civillian/LEO defensive handgun. It may not be robust enough for a military application but for my use it is perfect.

I guess it's kind of like buying a Porsche and realizing that it makes a heck of a daily driver too.

P7s are love hate guns. You either love them or you hate them. I have met very few people who walk the middle line. I happen to love them. They are the only handguns that I cannot compare to my beloved SIGs because the P7s truely are in a class of there own in every way.

Are they worth $1400? Nahhhhhh that is just artifical market inflation. They are a killer $800 gun though. They do warrant a premium cost just not as high as they are currently commanding.

As I try to explain this I guess I am coming to the conclusion that the phrase, "If you have to ask, you just wouldn't understand." is very true. They seem to be a very personal weapon with a very unique fit. If they FIT you, you will be assimilated into the cult and understand. If not they will always be that odd little German gun that costs too much. I guess in a way P7s pick their owners not the other way around.


The gun the new Bond should be carrying in my opinion.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/055146.JPG

[lunde]

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p7-collection.jpg

[Drifting Fate]

I found it to be the fastest gun at under 10 yards, even faster than highly tuned 1911's and Hi Powers.

I wasn't the impressed with the accuracy, but all of the old HK ads pushed the handling. I found the claims to be true.

It's faster out of the holster and for head shots at short range than anything. At least, for me it was. And, if memory serves, that's pretty much what GSG9 asked HK to design for them.

I regret selling a few guns, but I really, really miss my P7.

[Skunkabilly]

Ken, I love it when you do that ;)

[El Tejon]

Tacticool, baby!:cool:

RM, p7mania springs from a combination of beingdifferentness (I don't want to be like everyone else)and Dutchophlia (it must be good it comes aus Dutchland).

Look at it this way, if they like it, it provides an incentive to practice with it more.

[Stealther]

Oh no, not this thread again...

[Mikul]

It's the only gun machined better on the inside than on the outside.

[tetchaje1]

If you want a good explanation, just shoot one at the range. :)

:evil: You will be assimilated into the Cult! :evil:

[Poohgyrr]

Without reading the prior posts, I'd say just shoot a few mags through one and see what you think. I like the P7M8 a lot and wish I'd bought one back in the '80's when they cost $500. These can be unbelievably accurate.

[DBR]

I have owned 3 P7M8s. IMHO they are too heavy for their capacity. Not willing to devote myself to their unique manual of arms; I regularly dropped the magazine when I assumed my normal thumb down grip. They get very hot if you are doing multiple round range practice. I have seen several have fatal malfunctions (parts broke) during self defense classes. The geometry of the design makes it very difficult to make a holster - IWB or OWB - that carrys the gun without the rear of the slide protruding conspicuously. They are unreasonably ammo sensitive. Although intrinsically accurate the trigger is difficult to control in cold weather wearing gloves. My bottom line, a Glock is a better gun for the real world at less than 1/2 the price.

They are very well made pieces of machiney.

[Greg Bell]

1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.

2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger. Despite any BS about sponginess.

3. Compact. Although it has full-size controls (no pinky hang), the gun is sized like a compact approaching a subcompact. It is much thinner than almost any handgun.(1.1-1.2 inches).

4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.

5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.

6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).

7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hard-chromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.

8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.

9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies. There are many accounts of cops loosing their P7's to bad guys who were, in turn, unable to figure out the squeeze cocker. On the lighter side, a know it all at a local gun-shop had just explained to all of his bad experiences with the P7 when I handed it to him only to watch him fumble around unable to cock it! Hilarious.

10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).

11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.

12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.

13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.

14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.

15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural point-ability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.

16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.

As far as the Glock being better for the "real world".... Only if you bottom-line definition of better means price, spray and prayability, and the ability to run pointless torture tests--and ignoring the results ;). P7s don't Kb and they don't jam because you hold em' wrong. The M8 is objectively the best CCW out there.

[Wildalaska]

And they are cheap too!

WilddiscountAlaska

[zarroboogs]

Well, I think that maybe Lunde's pic has shed some light on why the mags are hard to get....

Nice collection!

[Kenneth Lew]

http://home.swbell.net/k100355/P7s.jpg

:neener:

Are the P7s worth it? Yes
This is coming from a cheap bastard.

Kenneth Lew

[New_comer]

I will own one someday...


Why?


Because <insert favorite justification here...> ;)

[CZF]

what about how they point?? They seem to point more like my $9.99
Staple Gun, than a semi auto pistol, at least in my hands.

I really don't like 'low cap' 9mms, and the P7M13 feels like a brick to me.
Really a shame, as I like the looks of them, and the ubercool factor.

[WonderNine]

It's the only gun machined better on the inside than on the outside.

Haha, Funny! But yea, you're probably right about that one.

[Sean Smith]

Seems like a bunch of police turn-ins have hit the market recently... if you want one, now is probably the time to get one for under $1,000. Not exactly cheap, but better than the $1,200+ a new one will set you back.

[CWL]

Caution, the current German police trade-ins are model P7/PSPs which differ from the P7M8/P7M13 line.
Still a great pistol ~$650 (I have one), but differ in these areas from the P7M8:

Slightly smaller slide so might not fit P7M8 holsters securely
Doesn't have trigger/heat shield (not at all important)
No loaded chamber indicator
European heel mag release
Magazines are different
Different sights from P7M8, will need to be machined to use P7M8 tritiums,adjustables,etc.
Availability of replacement parts questionable
No factory support from H&K because these are secondary market imports

Uninformed PSP buyers may find out that there are few aftermarket PSP accessories when compared to the P7M8.

[BamBam]

No factory support from H&K because these are secondary market imports
NOTE: Just recently, Hk dedcided to service the used PSP imports. They tack on an additional $45 (on top of parts, labor & shipping) for their kindness.

[10-Ring]

I bought mine because of the inherent safety. Learned after shooting it that it's extremely easy to point & shoot well.

[Schuey2002]

Für mich fängt die Liebeangelegenheit an. :D

(Sorry, Marko, if that's not how it's supposed to sound.) :o

[Zundfolge]

Like New_comer, I too will have one someday.

BTW, if anyone has a P7M10, I've got a 1970 Porsche 914 I would consider trading for it.

[Tamara]

The M8 is objectively the best CCW out there.

That must be why I subjectively sold both mine. ;)

Like I said: Fine guns, yes. The best single-stack CCW on the market? Maybe. Perfect guns? No.

We've had two P7 owners on the board have gun malfs lately. One sidelined the gun, the other sent a 9mm bullet into a wall. "But that can't be! It cost a bajillion bucks and came from Germany! It says HK on it fergawdsake!"

The faster most folks realize that all guns suck, the happier they'll be. ;)

[Greg Bell]

I never said perfect. I said it was the best. There will always be a best but only rarely will there be a perfect.

[Schuey2002]

The faster most folks realize that all guns suck, the happier they'll be.
I, for one, am not "most folk". Heck, I'm not even "some folk"..

No wonder I'm miserable all the time; I love my HK's too much! :o :uhoh:

[caz223]

Maybe all of your guns suck, but mine are doing just fine.

[Tamara]

I never said perfect. I said it was the best. There will always be a best but only rarely will there be a perfect.

Ah.

So the P7M8 is the best .45 ACP, 5" CCW pistol with a crisp single action trigger. Or the best 10+ shot CCW pistol. Or the best pocket pistol. Or the best purse gun.

Gotcha. Sorry, I must've misunderstood. ;)

I'll still submit that it is a "very good CCW gun." Maybe even "one of the best CCW guns." But to say "objectively the best CCW gun" strays a little too far into fanboy-itis for my skeptical tastes. ;)

As far as "only rarely will there be a perfect," well, maybe when God builds a CCW pistol. Until then, I'm stuck with these fallible, imperfect manmade machines. :D

[USGuns]

Just like owning a fine wristwatch or automobile ... much cheaper models will get the job done but there's just not the same pride of ownership as owning a finely crafted machine.
Some just get it, some don't.

[Tamara]

there's just not the same pride of ownership as owning a finely crafted machine.
Some just get it, some don't.

Sooner or later this point always comes up in P7 threads.

Someone once asked me in a P7 thread "What would you do if you shot someone with your P7 and the cops took it for evidence?" My answer was "I'd thank gawd it wasn't one of my expensive guns." ;) :D

[Greg Bell]

Tamara,

"So the P7M8 is the best .45 ACP, 5" CCW pistol with a crisp single action trigger. Or the best 10+ shot CCW pistol. Or the best pocket pistol. Or the best purse gun.

Gotcha. Sorry, I must've misunderstood. "


From your examples I have no choice but to presume you have misunderstood. Although I recognize that you were making an...attempt at sarcasm.


"But to say "objectively the best CCW gun" strays a little too far into fanboy-itis for my skeptical tastes. "

Ah, the ad hominem fallacy, I guess after 5000 posts there is little hope for an actual point.

"As far as "only rarely will there be a perfect," well, maybe when God builds a CCW pistol. Until then, I'm stuck with these fallible, imperfect manmade machines."

Read more carefully. Maybe you are tired.


GHB


__________________

[USGuns]

I'd thank gawd it wasn't one of my expensive guns.

"expensive" is relative to the owner. :D

[Wildalaska]

Just like owning a fine wristwatch or automobile ... much cheaper models will get the job done but there's just not the same pride of ownership as owning a finely crafted machine.

Hey but P7s are cheaper than new Hi Powers or Colts arent they:D

WildrolextimexAlaska

[Marko Kloos]

I never said perfect. I said it was the best. There will always be a best but only rarely will there be a perfect.

Whoa.

I use a P7M8 as my main CCW, and I think it's one of the best defensive carry designs ever made.

However.

There are jobs for which the P7 is most decidedly not "the best".

When I go motorcycling in cooler weather, the P7 does not come along. The gun does not like the temperature transitions from cold outdoors to heated rooms, and it will start to "sweat" and rust as a result. Therefore, a homely-but-indestructible Glock makes a far better motorcycle gun than the P7M8.

When I need a gun for deep concealment, i.e. pocket carry, the P7 is a less than perfect choice due to its voluminous grip and relatively high weight. Sure, you can pocket-carry a P7 if you have baggy pants and large pockets, but overall (and objectively) a Kel-Tec P32 or airweight J-frame makes a far better pocket gun than the P7M8.

A P7M8 is like a Porsche 911: relatively spendy, high performance, sometimes a little finicky, and a unique design that is not found anywhere else. Much like 911s, it also has a large following who think it's the best design ever made in its field, and who have a hard time conceding that there is no "one best design". A 911 is extremely good at driving fast at a high fun factor. It is rather less suited to hauling bookshelves around during a move, or ferrying six kids to soccer practice. A P7 is an outstanding gun for belt carry and general CCW, but it falls rather short in several other specialized defensive roles.

That's why most of us have more than one tool in our carry toolbox: there isn't one that does it all equally well. Therefore, there is no "best" when you talk about handguns; there is only a "best for task XYZ."

[Chris Rhines]

I thought very highly of the P7 platform until I actually shot one at the range. Didn't care for it much after that.

Saying that the P7, or any other pistol is objectively the best for anything is fundamentally self-contradictory. "Best" is a subjective term; the features that make something "the best" vary both with the situation and the perceving individual. Example - Alice has very small, very weak hands. She cannot reliably activate the squeeze-cocker on a P7. Is the P7 the best pistol for her? Or Bill. He has very large hands, to the point that the P7 does not fit him well. Should he carry the P7 anyway?

I'm sure you see my point. No pistol is objectively the best, for anything or anyone. It's up to the individual to determine what pistol is the best for his or her situation.

- Chris

[El Tejon]

Pistols (or firearms) are just tools. Do you want to pound a nail, fix a loose screw, or pry a board. It depends.

Chris, there you go with your reason. Coolness has no room for reason.:cool: Tacticoolness doubly so.

[Greg Bell]

Good, I love a philosophic discussion...


"Saying that the P7, or any other pistol is objectively the best for anything is fundamentally self-contradictory. Best is a subjective term; the features that make something "the best" vary both with the situation and the perceiving individual."

The term best can be used to describe both. For example, a person needs to dig a hole in some summer Georgia clay. Laying on the ground before that person is a perfectly functional shovel and a deck of playing cards. The shovel is objectively the best instrument for digging a hole. I'm sure, given enough time, you might think of a fact pattern where the cards would be best. Just because you can imagine a different set of facts does not change the objective/subjective status of the shovel in the situation I described.


" I'm sure you see my point. No pistol is objectively the best, for anything or anyone. It's up to the individual to determine what pistol is the best for his or her situation."

Like others, you have confused the best with perfection, either intentionally or otherwise. It is an old (ancient even) rhetorical move to do so. One makes this attack and then attempts to negotiate a draw by saying "oh, everything is the best in its own way."


GHB

[Chris Rhines]

Groan.

Just because you can imagine a different set of facts does not change the objective/subjective status of the shovel in the situation I described. Yes, in the situation you described. Which is different from the situation I described. Which is different from the situation that Charlie down the street is facing.

As I said, best is a subjective concept. What is best for me, may not be best for you. This is true for guns, cars, torque wrenches, signifigant others, or what have you. Nor do I have any trouble confusing 'best' and 'perfect.' 'Perfect' is an objective term, which is why perfection is pretty rare outside of mathematics and pure science.

This isn't tough stuff, and I have to wonder if you're just arguing for the sake of the argument. If so, I'll sign off.

- Chris

[Tamara]

Your way is wrong. My way is wrong. So is Marko's and El T's. The P7 is the best! Can't you see that? ;)

(I'd better buy my old one back from Marko, pronto, and stop toting this pistol that I can fire just as fast, more accurately, and with a more powerful cartridge... :uhoh: )

[Tamara]

Like others, you have confused the best with perfection, either intentionally or otherwise. It is an old (ancient even) rhetorical move to do so.

Like others, you have confused "the best" with "my favorite", either intentionally or otherwise. It is an old (ancient even) rhetorical move to do so. ;)

[Greg Bell]

Tam,

"Like others, you have confused "the best" with "my favorite", either intentionally or otherwise. It is an old (ancient even) rhetorical move to do so."

According to you philistines I couldn't posssibly confuse "the best" with "my favorite" since they are one in the same!:evil:

[Greg Bell]

Chris,

Chris, I can only discuss what you actually said:

"Saying that the P7, or any other pistol is objectively the best for anything is fundamentally self-contradictory."

"Best" is a subjective term; the features that make something "the best" vary both with the situation and the perceiving individual.

" No pistol is objectively the best, for anything or anyone. It's up to the individual to determine what pistol is the best for his or her situation."

"'Just because you can imagine a different set of facts does not change the objective/subjective status of the shovel in the situation I described.' Yes, in the situation you described. Which is different from the situation I described. Which is different from the situation that Charlie down the street is facing."

There are two interpretations of these statements, one makes the statements false and one makes them incredibly banal. The first is, taking your statements at face value, that no (pistol) can be the best for anything or anyone. This statement is clearly self-refuting and actually contradicted by your own words.

The second, and more trivial interpretation is that everyone has his or her own tastes. Although in some ways correct, this statement is certainly a let-down from the grand claim that no (pistol) is objectively the best. Further, even this, the last defense of the subjectivist has problems: A person can be wrong despite their personal tastes or opinions. I may prefer to take prussic acid to improve my biological longevity. I am clearly wrong--prussic acid is certainly, and indeed objectively, not the best method of improving my biological longevity. So, the only defensible position left seems to be that someone can't be wrong about their own personal preference. Nothing very new or informative about that particular insight.

GHB

[Tamara]

Oh, dear gawd, here I was, all set to point out that using the terms "best" and "objective" together in a sentence about CCW pistols was introducing a tautology into the discussion, but the thread's gotten entirely too cerebral for that, now... ;)

May as well join in, then. :D

"The pistol on my hip is objectively the Best CCW Pistol On The Planet. Since it cost twice as much as a P7M8, it's twice as good, and those of you who don't think so just haven't experienced its fine craftsmanship and are barking about sour grapes." ;) :D :p

[Greg Bell]

Nothing tautological about my use of the words best and objective. Time to dust off those schoolbooks Tamara. :evil:

The thing on your hip might be the best CCW. It could be a gun that is invisible, weightless, ceaselessly accurate, instantaneous, totally intuitive, and does the exact amount of damage to your opponent that you desire. The weapon that gets closest to this will be, objectively, the best CCW available. Feel free to add any qualities I have missed.

Oh, and if you had a weapon that did the above, no matter how much someone else protested that they thought the catapult was better for CCW, they would be absolutely, totally, objectively wrong.

GHB

[dsk]

I'm really having a hard time understanding why some folks think these guns are expensive. If you look at the machining and intricacies involved you'd see where all the money went into the manufacture! Yet many folks will gladly pay $1500 or more for a slapped-together, so-called "custom" 1911 with cheap MIM parts.

I think every serious gun owner should have at least one fancy gun in their collection, and I don't mean an engraved pearl-handled pimp gun. I mean, something that makes others drool when you pull that baby out of the safe, carefully remove it from the gun rug and wipe it down with the silicone cloth like it's a fine jewel.

P7's don't do anything for me, but I can see why some folks like them. Same goes for Lugers, SAA's, and SIG P-210's.

[tex_n_cal]

yes, dsk, and 'fess up, you love it when people drool over your prewar Colts:D

I have shot a P7 some years ago - yes they are very accurate and reliable. Being a mechanical engineer, the mechanisms are cool all by themselves.

That said - if a BG comes in the house I will fight with a 1911 - with seven of them in the safe that's the manual of arms I practice. Could I get good with a P7? Sure, but my .38 Super 1911 holds two more shots and hits harder.

Other gripes - you want a used one, not a new one. The morons added some ridiculous warnings on the slide which are ugly and insulting, all for your $1400 new price tag.

I might go for a used one. I won't pay more than a grand.

[Hawk]

Well, this thread made me curious enough to pick up one of the current batch of border patrol used PSP's at my local dealer.

50 rounds went through it flawlessly, accuracy was better than I would have expected and the "giggle factor" was off the scale - it's just plain NEAT. Neat enough that I've got a second one on its way.

("Honest honey, their availability is spotty and there are horror stories on parts - I needed a spare"). Hey, it's my story and I'm sticking to it.

That being said, I don't see it replacing my STI Ranger .45 any time soon.

But perhaps of greatest import - it's my very first 9mm. I'll finally be able to dive into those "9mm vs .45" threads. :eek:

[Serpico]

Very few guns are as good out of the box as this one....great sights, nice trigger, very reliable....but I can see others finding it a bit heavy for a 9 shot or not liking the fact that the finish on a Yugo holds up better....I'm just confused by the guys here who aren't impresssed with it but have owned more than one.....that's like saying Liver tastes awful, and I shoould know,I ordered it five times this week.....

As for the BHP being perfect (Mr. Alaska), it may be close to it, but not out of the box...mine needed sights, a trigger job and an extended safety...some say the new Mk 111s just need the trigger....anyway, it is my favorite 9 of all time but I can't carry a sinlge action so the P7 has a home on my hip....not a bad runner up....


http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000364/MVC004S.JPG