168 gr seems to be crammed in the powder, cant be good


PDA






BeltfedMG
September 19, 2008, 03:00 PM
When the powder is near bottom of the neck in a 308 case, and you put a 168 gr bullet in it hits the powder and seems to "Cram" its way threw the powder in order to properly seat the bullet. This cant be good can it? Wouldnt that cause too much pressure or is it fine? The guy was using millitary powder, as according to what millitary specs call for except the book was refering to loading 143gr bullets which would not have been crammed into the powder when seating the bullet. Is this gonna cause problems?

Hopefully i explained this to where people can understand what im sayin.

If you enjoyed reading about "168 gr seems to be crammed in the powder, cant be good" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
EShell
September 19, 2008, 03:06 PM
Using load data intended for a 143 with a 168 is bad news and probably a safety problem.

Compressed charges are not necessarily a problem, provided the load has been approached with caution. I load several cartridges that perform best with loads are result in compressed charges and happen to be below maximum pressures.

Galil5.56
September 19, 2008, 03:09 PM
I've loaded a bunch of different rounds with IMR powder that were crunchy compressed with no problems, and none expected. If the data is tested there is no problem. I will say though, I really like AA2460 for 7.62x51 service type loads a lot. Meters great, no compression and accurate.

rcmodel
September 19, 2008, 03:09 PM
+1

Compressed loads are perfectly safe, if they are tested to be safe that way.

NO WAY is using 168 grain bullets on top of 147 grain powder charges safe, whether it is a compressed load or not.

rcmodel

Walkalong
September 19, 2008, 03:11 PM
A slighly compressed charge will not hurt a thing, if it is the correct charge.

Another option is to use a long drop tube on your powder measure. It will make a substantial difference in how high a powder charge sits in a rifle case.

Black powder shooters use then routinely.

BeltfedMG
September 19, 2008, 03:24 PM
+1

Compressed loads are perfectly safe, if they are tested to be safe that way.

NO WAY is using 168 grain bullets on top of 147 grain powder charges safe, whether it is a compressed load or not.

rcmodel

Why cant you use a 168 gr bullet with 147 gr charge.? Wheres the problem? I really have no clue to any of this.
Thanks for the info guys.

rcmodel
September 19, 2008, 03:30 PM
Assuming the 147 grain load was loaded to maximum pressure, the additional bullet weight of the 168 would raise pressure to an unsafe level.

There is generally about a 2 - 3 grain differance in powder charge weight between the lighter & heavier bullet using the same powder type in a .308.

You could safely use a 147 bullet on top of a 168 charge, but not the other way around.

rcmodel

snuffy
September 19, 2008, 03:44 PM
DANGER! A max charge with a 147 grain bullet, add 21 grains heavier bullet, (168),= increased resistance to movement, result, Higher pressure, possibly dangerously high.

If you don't automatically know this, you shouldn't be anywhere around a reloading set-up. You need to do some reading, study some reloading books.

bullseye308
September 19, 2008, 04:07 PM
With the proper load a compressed charge can be normal. I load 223 with varget and at the higher charges they are compressed. Always follow a load manual and stay within the limits they provide. Any component changed from their recipie requires you to start at the bottom and work back up checking for pressure signs.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you didn't understand that you have a lot of reading to do.

BeltfedMG
September 19, 2008, 04:08 PM
No, no, its not me, i am not doin this, not even set up in the least for rifle cals. Seen a guy doin it today and was wondering cause to me it just didnt look right.

highorder
September 19, 2008, 04:50 PM
Your intuition serves you well. It's not right... You should inquire further, preferably before he shoots these loads.

It reminds me of the guy that came into the shop asking for "weaker powder" because the stuff he was using was ruining every case upon firing. It seems he was just filling .38spcl cases and dumping out enough for the bullet to seat! Thank god he was using 4895 instead of unique, bullseye, titegroup, etc...

longdayjake
September 19, 2008, 05:37 PM
I have found that the term "Max Load" is more of a liability clause then an actual maximum amount of powder before you start having problems. Everyone knows that "hot load" almost always means that the casings have been stuffed with as much powder as possible. That being said, Max Loads are also going to be different with every gun. Some guns can take the extra pressure before they have issues when others can't. That is what makes people claim that something is a max load. All it means is that at that load it creates "X" amount of pressure. Some receivers can take more pressure than others, but most will take that "X" amount with no problems. So once a load reaches that generic pressure threashold the load is deemed "max." Though most receivers can take more pressure if forced to, it becomes unsafe because you aren't quite sure exactly how much pressure it can take. I doubt your friend will have a problem, but there is always the "what if."

As an aside I would like to mention that "hot loads" -though they often get more velocity, suffer in accuracy. All of my most accurate loads are toned down. Granted I have only been handloading for about 2 years now but I think most people would agree with that.

rcmodel
September 19, 2008, 05:45 PM
I have found that the term "Max Load" is more of a liability clause then an actual maximum amount of powder before you start having problems.Well, then, you don't have enough old loading manuals, or haven't shot enough different rifles!

I can assure you that some max loads in some manuals, in some rifles, will blow primers, stick bolts shut, and in general, cause
an Unfortunate Series of Events!

Since BeltfedMG didn't say what manual his friend got his GI spec 147 grain load out of, we have to assume it really is a max load with a 147 grain bullet.

If we assume that, seating a 168 grain bullet on top of it IS NOT SAFE!

rcmodel

longdayjake
September 19, 2008, 05:49 PM
I can assure you that some max loads in some manuals, in some rifles, will blow primers, stick bolts shut, and in general, cause
an Unfortunate Series of Events!


Exactly. You hit it right on the head. in some rifles, will blow primers, stick bolts shut

cdrt
September 19, 2008, 06:06 PM
In my younger, more foolish days, when I was shooting with the Mare Island Navy Rifle team, we took some 7.62 ball, pulled the 147 grain bullets and replaced them with 168 grain Sierra BTs for a 1,000 yard match we were going to at Twentynine Palms Marine base. They actually worked just fine but we did notice some excessive pressure signs; really flattened primers and amazingly fast ejection of the empty case. We were shooting some M1 Garands that they Navy had rebarreled to .308 and gas bedded, etc. None of the rifles were the worse for wear, but I don't think I would ever do that again.

snuffy
September 19, 2008, 06:27 PM
In my younger, more foolish days, when I was shooting with the Mare Island Navy Rifle team, we took some 7.62 ball, pulled the 147 grain bullets and replaced them with 168 grain Sierra BTs for a 1,000 yard match we were going to at Twentynine Palms Marine base. They actually worked just fine but we did notice some excessive pressure signs; really flattened primers and amazingly fast ejection of the empty case. We were shooting some M1 Garands that they Navy had rebarreled to .308 and gas bedded, etc. None of the rifles were the worse for wear, but I don't think I would ever do that again.

Real nice! After most of us say it's a bad practice, you come along and say we did it, got away with it. Some new reloader tries it, blow his rifle up, and sues this forum. I bet you couldn't seat new primers in those cases!:banghead: (They'd fall out, not stay seated.)

I have found that the term "Max Load" is more of a liability clause then an actual maximum amount of powder before you start having problems.

No, max load means exactly what it says. IF you go over that you're on your own. Without knowing the velocity obtained with a max load, you can't be sure you are okay to go over max. Most don't have a chronograph, and few that do, know how to read when you have actually reached max for that rifle, brass case, powder lot number, powder amount, bullet, primer, and seating depth.

Everyone knows that "hot load" almost always means that the casings have been stuffed with as much powder as possible.

I know that "hot load" is simply slang repeated by jocks, that like easily adopted expressions. I dislike terms like that, too general in nature, could mean almost anything.

bogie
September 19, 2008, 06:41 PM
I really have no clue to any of this.

First clue: If you do not know what you're doing with reloading, don't.

Not only will you probably damage a few hundred (or thousand...) dollars worth of firearm, you can lose fingers, eyes, or your life.

Compressed loads are fine.

Substituting a 168 grain bullet in a 147 grain recipe isn't.

Galil5.56
September 19, 2008, 06:54 PM
As an aside I would like to mention that "hot loads" -though they often get more velocity, suffer in accuracy. All of my most accurate loads are toned down. Granted I have only been handloading for about 2 years now but I think most people would agree with that.


"Hot" as in the highest safe worked up velocity, hot as in case/primer blow-out, hot as in sticky bolt/severely flattened primer/stretched webs?... A lot of meanings for hot in my experience. In my situation, I have shot many high power rifles that shot most accurately at the upper end of velocity/what was safe in them, where moderate velocity loads had only so-so accuracy. Many traditional pistol/revolver rounds seem to be able to shoot well from very light to full power in my experience.

USSR
September 19, 2008, 07:23 PM
A lot of meanings for hot in my experience. In my situation, I have shot many high power rifles that shot most accurately at the upper end of velocity/what was safe in them, where moderate velocity loads had only so-so accuracy.

+1. See it quoted all the time "accuracy is not found at the high end of velocity". From my personal experience with high power rifles, there is usually a sweet spot at/near the high end of safe velocity/pressure, as well as with a somewhat milder loading.

Don

BeltfedMG
September 19, 2008, 07:27 PM
First off i wouldnt do something as replace a 147 with a 168 just because of one person on one site did so, im not that simple. In order for me to do something like that im gonna hit many, many different sites and check/compare or hit a designated book on the subject. Having played with many explosives and blown up alot of stuff i know better then to just take "A guys" word.

That and i shoot some rather expensive transferrable machineguns i would rather not replace because of some stupid move on my part.

bullseye308
September 19, 2008, 07:45 PM
Beltfed, sorry, I missed the part where it wasn't you. :uhoh: Glad to see that you would check mulitple sources, most of us do that all the time because even the load manuals make mistakes at times. If it doesn't look right, triple check every time. I'm kinda partial to all my fingers and eyes, seems like you are too. Good luck and shoot a few lanes over from your friend. J/K. Advise him to not fire those and do some research, might save him some trouble.

BeltfedMG
September 19, 2008, 07:54 PM
Thanks, i will

243winxb
September 19, 2008, 08:09 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4931493&postcount=5 Over compressing powder can cause problems if not following data.

NCsmitty
September 19, 2008, 08:47 PM
Some people are not meant to reload because of a lack of common sense. They eventually hurt themselves or others or end up destroying an innocent firearm. :(

Walkalong
September 19, 2008, 08:51 PM
there is usually a sweet spot at/near the high end of safe velocity/pressure, as well as with a somewhat milder loading.Yep, and the sweet spot with the most velocity is best for the precision shooter since less time in flight means less drift etc., etc.

That said. All target shooters work up loads in their rifles with set components carefully. They know what is safe in their rifles. That same load may not be safe, or accurate, in a similar rifle, although shooters in the same discipline will come up with very similar loads many times.

cdrt
September 19, 2008, 09:44 PM
Real nice! After most of us say it's a bad practice, you come along and say we did it, got away with it. Some new reloader tries it, blow his rifle up, and sues this forum. I bet you couldn't seat new primers in those cases!

I did not mean to offend any one with that post. I was just relating something that happened a long time ago and that we were lucky that nothing broke. Would I do it again today...NO. And luckily we only put about 80 rounds through each rifle since it was a 1,000 yard match in three stages; any rifle/any sight, any rifle/iron sights and service rifle (20 rounds per match with sighters). There is no telling what would have happened if we had fired any more than that.

dwave
September 20, 2008, 06:42 PM
Hey cdrt, don't worry about it, he just doesn't know how to read. Especially the line, "I don't think I would ever do that again." I my opinion I think he was being rude. Then again so am I here, but I didn't start it! :)

snuffy
September 20, 2008, 08:15 PM
Hey cdrt, don't worry about it, he just doesn't know how to read. Especially the line, "I don't think I would ever do that again." I my opinion I think he was being rude. Then again so am I here, but I didn't start it!

Cdrt didn't put a disclaimer on the end of his post to this thread. Just "I don't think I would ever do that again". I felt it necessary to point out it was a very bad idea. I guess, according to you, that I should stop doing that. Let somebody damage a rifle, possibly himself.

If I was over the top in my wording then
EXCUSE ME!

dwave
September 21, 2008, 05:15 AM
My point is you should have been nicer in how you posted it. There are way better ways of saying it than the way you did. Do it all you want, just don't be condescending when you do it.

If you enjoyed reading about "168 gr seems to be crammed in the powder, cant be good" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!