.223 primer question


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shuvelrider
September 19, 2008, 06:09 PM
I shoot a Charles Daly .223 M4 carbine and will be running some shells for it soon, something I read stated using a harder primer if rounds are being made for AR type rifle cuz of the floating firing pin design. I usually use standard CCI primer in my other rifle reloads. Is there an issue or is that article blowing smoke?

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cdrt
September 19, 2008, 06:17 PM
The guys I shoot NRA High Power with, use a variety of primers in the AR with no problems. I asked around the other day and most are using Winchester or Federal.

rcmodel
September 19, 2008, 06:23 PM
I have used CCI or Winchester SR exclusively since I started loading for AR's in 1970.

I had problems with doubling early on, but it turned out to be my fault for not getting all the GI crimp out, and crushing primers in with my Rockchucker press primer seater.

As soon as I started swaging crimps, and switched to an RCBS hand priming tool, I've never had another problem in over 30 years.

rcmodel

longdayjake
September 19, 2008, 06:23 PM
CCI 400 small rifle primers are what I personally use for my ar. I have shot over 1000 of these with no problems. As I understand it, these are pretty close if not exactly like military spec primers. I could be wrong, but my own experience has proved to be good. I also use the Large CCI primers for my garand and M1a. None have ever double fired. I doubt most primers would go off as long as the firing pin is not stuck in the forward position. Keep your bolt clean and you should have no problems no matter what you use. That being said, I probably wouldn't use bench rest primers because they are supposedly soft. It's always better to go the safe way if there is a question.

cdrt
September 19, 2008, 07:01 PM
The problem milspec primers are supposed to cure is a slam fire, not doubling. In the M1 it can be a problem if primers are not seated correctly. Milspec primers will slam fire just like all the others if they are not seated below the rim of the primer hole.

shuvelrider
September 19, 2008, 07:05 PM
Thanks, I figured that would be the case---personal pref. Bought some shells for the brass and found 154 federal cases at the range, traded some mags for Rem shells also so I have over 500 to play with total. Pick up more along the way when the price is good

snuffy
September 19, 2008, 07:36 PM
I use winchester primers for my AR, I also use the Rem 7 primers, they're supposed to be mil-spec. No problems with doubling due to primers. The sear on my jewel trigger is another story.

Be careful with those federal brass. The .223 federals have a very thin base. The primer pockets generally stretch so much on the first firing, that they won't hold a primer very well. They may be snug enough for you to load them once, but if used with a near max load, you will find the pockets have stretched enough so it won't hold a primer tightly.

bullseye308
September 19, 2008, 08:53 PM
I used the CCI 41 primers in my Bushmaster with nary a problem. Granted, I only loaded 3k, but nothing went off when it wasn't supposed to. I used them because they are supposed to be thicker and prevent slamfires. This may or may not be true, but it worked for me. At the same or close price why not? I have heard of others using just about every other primer on the market with the same success, so maybe it comes down to price or availability. Just make dang sure they are fully seated and you should be good to go. Almost every time I hear of a problem the primer wasn't seated fully.

243winxb
September 19, 2008, 09:44 PM
Slam fires are caused by mismatched parts guns and primers not seated correctly. Doubling is caused by incorrectly adjusted triggers, too light a pull weight and sear ingagement. Photos are of slam fires in a parts gun. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/SlamfireAR_02.jpg http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/SlamfireAR_01.jpg Not a fault of factory ammo, the return spring was to heavy and the ejector spring to light. This lets the floating firing pin fly forward with enough force to set off the primer. Then since the hammer is not resting on the firing pin, filling the hole, the empty firing pin hole lets the primer metal flow where the firing pin should be if the hammer had dropped IMO .

Canuck-IL
September 19, 2008, 10:06 PM
For some alternative views ...
http://www.nationalmatch.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=11344

http://www.nationalmatch.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=11449

I've had perfect performance from 7 1/2s but now have a sleeve of Feds to try. The boltface erosion issue mentioned in both of the above threads is a little worrisome.

Recently there have also been several reports of Win primers piercing since they changed from the silver to the brass colored model. Federals are clearly thinner/more sensitive in LP, I'll have to see how their SRs do with moderate AR loads.
/Bryan

shuvelrider
September 20, 2008, 12:01 AM
Thanks again, I,ll make up some test batches with different brass and the CCI 400 primers, this is for casual/target shooting to stay in practice for rifle qual in the reserves. We dont shoot near enough in a years time to be proficient, it should be a natural thing rather then a mechanical motion to tolerate for the day. Oops, off on a rant,sorry!!

rcmodel
September 20, 2008, 01:23 PM
The problem milspec primers are supposed to cure is a slam fire, not doubling.I hate to be argumentative, but doubling caused by the floating firing pin is doubling, regardless of what you want to call it.

An AR cannot slam-fire out of battery, because the firing pin is too short to reach the primer unless the bolt is closed and locked.

Unless the bolt is closed, the case rim has not snapped under the extractor yet, and the firing pin is retracted inside the bolt by the bolt carrier.

rcmodel

strat81
September 21, 2008, 02:02 PM
I've used CCI 400 and #41 primers in my ARs with no problems.

JRadice45
September 21, 2008, 08:14 PM
+1 for cci 400

Ben Shepherd
September 21, 2008, 08:56 PM
CCI should be fine, they're the hardest cupped primers on the market. My opinion, FWIW, is those guys you know that are using federal primers in guns with floating firing pins are asking for it, as they are the softest out there.

counterclockwise
September 21, 2008, 11:53 PM
CCI 41's give a slight better margin against slam fires by design (stronger cup). On the other hand, I have had some trouble getting them seated low enough below the casing head surface (.003") for some reason, in my LC'02 1X brass. I bought a primer pocket reformer and it helped.

shooter762
September 22, 2008, 08:05 PM
I'm also starting to reload for 223, found this pic of the federal brass somewhere that shows the danger.

Shooter762.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/blackops_1/FC_223_brass_sucks.jpg

cliffy
September 22, 2008, 11:49 PM
CCI 400 primer cups are .020" thick, while CCI 450 primer cups are .025" thick so it was recommended to me to use CCI 450 "magnum" primers since they were designed for .223 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum heavy loads, and CCI 400 primers were designed for .22 Hornet, 218 Bee, .219 Zipper, and .222 Remington. Since I've pierced primers with stout .223 Remington loads, and encountered dirty firing pins because of this problem, I have to believe in what currently works for me. Remington 7 1/2; MAGTECH 7 1/2; most other MAGNUM designated primers should create no problems. cliffy

Wildfire
September 23, 2008, 12:09 AM
Hey There :
I must go with RC model. I do not believe an AR can slam fire that way.
Light trigger ? Likely. Bad sear ? yep. Primer make ?
Never heard of it yet.
I have loaded way more then my share of .223 Ar ammo and never had a slam fire or a double. It must lock up..........
I have used CCI 400s only. CCI 450s are used for some loading but not all.

Wildfire
September 23, 2008, 12:13 AM
Hey:
Mil spec brass has always been thicker. Comercial brass is thinner.
Comercial brass will stretch more Mil spec does not. The problem would be the mil spec before the thinner comercial. Thicker brass does not make it stronger.

SlamFire1
September 23, 2008, 10:54 AM
An AR cannot slam-fire out of battery, because the firing pin is too short to reach the primer unless the bolt is closed and locked.

In the book "Black Rifle", there is a discussion of the issues the military went through when the early M16's were slamfiring.

I will have to dig the book out, but the picture of a slamfired M16 shows a blown out upper. Just at the end of the barrel. That would be consistent with an out of battery slamfire.

A guy I know who works on the rebuild line for Government small arms has said he has seen a lot of M16's uppers blown out at the same location. But he does not know what caused it. So it could be anything else.

Slamfires in AR's are rare, the one I experienced was in battery, the ones I have seen were in battery, ones I have heard of were in battery, but strange things can happen. Especially in dynamic systems.

rcmodel
September 23, 2008, 02:19 PM
The AR has no planned method of handling a ruptured case like many other military rifles. (IE: Mauser gas escape holes in the bolt & reciever.)

So, a blown or ruptured case due to high pressure will blow the side out of an upper, or badly deform it.

The early AR teething problems where the result of the firing pin being too heavy.
But they did not fire out of battery, they doubled or went full auto.
The firing pin was made smaller and lighter, and the problems went away.

I am still not convenced an AR can fire out of battery, unless the firing pin breaks and the front end gets stuck sticking through the bolt face.

There is just no other possible way it can reach a primer with the bolt un-locked, due to the carrier retracting the FP inside the bolt when it unlocks it.

rcmodel

SlamFire1
September 23, 2008, 05:24 PM
There is just no other possible way it can reach a primer with the bolt un-locked, due to the carrier retracting the FP inside the bolt when it unlocks it

I know, I know. But having had two catastrophic slamfires in M1 Garands, (and we all know that out of battery slamfires cannot happen in those because of the receiver bridge…:rolleyes:) I am not willing to say an out of battery slamfire cannot happen in a AR.

Just when I say it can’t happen, someone will have one..

Hopefully, not me!

Postscript:

Did not find a picture of a blown up AR in the book "Black Rifle". The text only mentions in battery slamfires.

reloader223
September 23, 2008, 10:25 PM
I have noticed in using match primers{CCI} in my AR WILL have a slightest dent in it if unloaded after chambering ,no other types or brands have . but I've used a few thousand in High Power matches with no slamfire,I wouldnt worry .

reloader223
September 23, 2008, 10:30 PM
To Shooter762, Yes the Federal brass I have found to be undesirable for repeated loadings,the primer pockets get 'big' .Winchester can take many reloads. If I do load Federal its for hunting or plinking and the brass stays where it falls.

Khornet
October 1, 2008, 04:14 PM
will leave a tiny dimple on a MILITARY round's primer after chambering. Like the M1 but much more subtle; I probably would never have seen it had I not been curious and checked closely. I don't worry about slamfires.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 1, 2008, 04:24 PM
I was getting the dimple in my primers on my Bushmaster M4 so I bought into the Titanium Firing pin at about a hundred bucks.

It helped some, but not that much. Then I got a brick of the CCI 41 (white box) primers for 5.56 that are supposed to be a heavier metal. That helped a little, but it still happens.

I give up!:uhoh:

A side note here, one thing that was really worth the expense is the Timney drop-in complete trigger assembly. You can get a 4# or a 3#.
http://mooneysfirearms.com/ProductImages/pof/Timney.jpg http://mooneysfirearms.com/
I got the 3# and it's great! I ran all the necessary checks to ensure I don't have accidental firing and all the tests I did were flawless!

If I ever decide to target shoot official in competition, will this Timney trigger be OK, or does the gun need to be completely stock for competition (I'm thinking open sights as I have QD Leupold scope rings)?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 1, 2008, 04:40 PM
To Shooter762, Yes the Federal brass I have found to be undesirable for repeated loadings,the primer pockets get 'big' .Winchester can take many reloads. If I do load Federal its for hunting or plinking and the brass stays where it falls.

I got 500 Lake City Nato brass (little round circle with a + in it), new and some primer pockets were a bit loose on the FIRST LOADING! Is this the same Federal Brass you are referring to?

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