Open Carry by Supermarket Employees


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Smoke
September 9, 2003, 10:28 AM
Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/texasliving/stories/090903dnlivwork.acbab.html)

We're taking aim at high prices!
06:00 PM CDT on Monday, September 8, 2003

We're taking aim at high prices!

At the Vol Market in Knoxville, Tenn., employees are likely to be wearing a nametag, a smile – and a gun. The Knoxville News-Sentinel reports that the owners of the supermarket and deli like a "visual deterrent" to anybody thinking of robbing the store. So, while it's not mandatory, many employees go about their jobs with pistols in a holster on their hip.

"We're just protecting what we have worked long and hard for and protecting our customers," said co-owner Alan Frye. "We don't want to shoot anybody. But we couldn't be in this business without the pistols."

A police officer told the newspaper that gun-toting merchants are fairly common in pawnshops, but not supermarkets. Vol Market also cashes checks, which requires having lots of cash on hand. "Some customers, after they've cashed a big check, will ask us to escort them to their cars, and we are glad to do it," said co-owner Rich Nichols.

The owners said they instituted the policy in 1996, when the state began allowing people with permits to carry guns. The store has been burglarized three times since then, but never robbed. Armed employees have detained several people trying to cash stolen checks until police arrived.

Anybody carrying a gun has to take a training course that includes reminders that guns can be used only when lives are in danger. Mr. Nichols concurs, adding, "If someone wants to come in here and scuffle, we've still got baseball bats and axe handles for that."

Michael Precker

*********************************

Interesting article. The picture that ran in the paper but isnot available in the online article shows a "Bubba" looking guy in overalls packing a Glock.

They run a Pro gun piece then try to make the reader think we're all tobacco chewing rednecks by running the photo they did.

At least it was a decent bit for the front page of the Texas Living section. Just too bad it was in Tennessee.

:)

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Ala Dan
September 9, 2003, 10:40 AM
That's my VOL FANS for ya'!


GO BIG ORANGE!


Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Henry Bowman
September 9, 2003, 10:58 AM
"If someone wants to come in here and scuffle, we've still got baseball bats and axe handles for that."
Gotta love it! :D

Hutch
September 9, 2003, 11:36 AM
They'd get all my bidness, if I were there. Y'gotta love 'em.

Skunkabilly
September 9, 2003, 12:17 PM
Man, I'd love to open up a Chinese restaurant and do that here!!!

seeker_two
September 9, 2003, 12:32 PM
If I'm ever back in TN, I'll be buying up a few things....


But it does beg the question: Leather or Plastic?...:scrutiny:

tcdrennen
September 9, 2003, 12:42 PM
Hey, Skunky, actually, that's perfectly legal in CA: an employer can permit any employee to openly carry on the business premises, without even having to have a BSIS open carry permit-that only applies to uniformed security guards employed by a guard company.

My roommate regularly carries openly when working for a swap meet operator (she handles cash at a remote part of the lot.)

Yhe problem is getting yoor insurance to be okay with it. :(

cool45auto
September 9, 2003, 01:19 PM
That's too cool! Good for them!

C.R.Sam
September 9, 2003, 01:26 PM
Cool.
I hope it doesn't spook too many blue haired yuppie libs.
That could negatively affect the bottom line.
And the bottom line keeps the store open.

Sam

Sunray
September 9, 2003, 01:32 PM
Gives a whole new meaning to, "Please don't squeeze the Charmin." Doesn't it? I wonder what kind of training they get. Who decides if that pimply faced part time, high school, kid can carry while taking your groceries out to your car?

DJJ
September 9, 2003, 02:00 PM
I'd shop there.

"Gimme the money!"

*BANG BANG*

"Wet cleanup on aisle three.."

RustyHammer
September 9, 2003, 03:23 PM
Over the intercom: "Reload, isle 3" ...

:p

Tamara
September 9, 2003, 03:38 PM
I love living in Knoxville! :D

Sincerely,
Tam (who open carries a C&L 1911 at work herself, although working at a gun store probably doesn't count. ;) )

Tamara
September 9, 2003, 03:47 PM
Gives a whole new meaning to, "Please don't squeeze the Charmin." Doesn't it? I wonder what kind of training they get. Who decides if that pimply faced part time, high school, kid can carry while taking your groceries out to your car?

You trust him to pilot a multi-thousand pound projectile down the road past you at 70 MPH, right? You think that might make major? ;)

I'm all for letting folks make their own choices and then live with the consequences. If you don't trust Vol Market's hiring policies and employees, perhaps you could shop elsewhere; someplace that hires people that they wouldn't trust with a gun (or even an axe handle). Maybe someplace that folks aren't willing to give you a free courtesy escort to your car after cashing your check...

2dogs
September 9, 2003, 04:07 PM
What, nobody drops dead from the mere sight of this?:cool:

Should be the law of the land.:D

BowStreetRunner
September 9, 2003, 04:31 PM
man i wish i could shop there....thats awesome

Rogelio
September 9, 2003, 04:48 PM
If we did something like this here in Peru we would all get in jail...just got to love the USA!

Standing Wolf
September 9, 2003, 05:08 PM
Armed employees have detained several people trying to cash stolen checks until police arrived.

I'd shop there.

Graystar
September 9, 2003, 05:33 PM
BowStreetRunner said it....that's awesome! :D

Mauserlady
September 9, 2003, 05:35 PM
From page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel


Armed and ready
Vol Market owners carry handguns openly to deter crime

http://mas.scripps.com/KNS/2003/09/02/0903a1guns1e_e.jpg

By JIM BALLOCH, balloch@knews.com
September 3, 2003

At the Vol Market No. 3 on Western Avenue, the person preparing your food, cashing your check or ringing you up at the register likely will be wearing a holstered handgun on their hip.

But unlike most Tennesseans who have a handgun carry permit, Vol Market owners have decided that open display as a visual deterrent is preferable to concealment as final protection.


The guns are an absolute last resort, said Alan Frye, 32, whose father, "Stormin' " Norman Frye, started the Vol Market chain years ago and operated the one on Cumberland Avenue for many years.

"This isn't a challenge to anybody," said Alan Frye. "We're just protecting what we have worked long and hard for, and protecting our customers. We don't want to shoot anybody. But we couldn't be in this business without the pistols."

The state does not track how many business owners with carry permits who openly display firearms. Authorities say there are probably not many. But the Vol Market folks are not alone.

Knoxville Police Dept. Lt. Eddie Biggs said some pawn shop owners wear handguns openly.

"The main problem I see is, if a police officer who is not familiar with the owner rolls up on an adverse situation, it may pose a problem to determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy," Biggs said.

In addition to its thriving food and deli business, Vol Market has a check-cashing service, which requires a lot of cash be on hand to cash payroll checks for customers.

Store employees have been carrying guns openly after the 1996 carry permit law went into effect. Since then, it has not been robbed but was burglarized three times. And several persons who tried to cash stolen checks were detained by employees until police arrived.

"We are not trying to be police officers, we just want to protect what is ours," said Frye's co-owner, Rich Nichols, 32. "We've never had to draw the guns."

At any given time, at least two armed people will be in the store, Frye and Nichols said. Going armed is not mandatory, and some employees are never armed.

About 75 to 80 percent of their business is from regular customers, and none has expressed apprehension about the guns, the owners said.

"Some customers, after they've cashed a big check, will ask us to escort them to their cars, and we are glad to do it," Nichols said.

The training course for a carry permit includes reminders that the gun can be used only in the case of imminent threat to their lives or the lives of another.

"So if someone wants to come in here and scuffle, we've still got baseball bats and axe handles for that," Nichols said.

But in the case of a robbery, Frye said, he would surrender money before risking a customer's life, but is willing to risk his own life.

"I will not surrender the money, I will die first," he said. "That's not about money. This store is my life. We've sacrificed time, we've sacrificed relationships, for it. So if it comes down to just Rich or myself being the ones at risk, we are not going to just give up what we've worked so hard for."

As for the value of guns as a deterrent, Biggs said, "A lot of that ultimately depends on the mentality of the person who is contemplating committing the offense. Are they high on drugs and don't care? Are they willing to just go in and take out (the armed person) first?"

That is something that Frye and Nichols likely think about often. In 1990, Frye's uncle, Windham M. "Bill" Frye, 65, was killed by a shotgun blast in the parking lot of his market in South Knoxville as he left with receipts - and his .38-caliber handgun - after closing for business. The bank bag with money in it was found by his body, along with the handgun. It had been fired once. Investigators initially thought it was a bungled robbery.

Six years later, two men were charged. They were 17 at the time of the crime and had been in the store earlier. One maintained his innocence, but was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. A charge of accessory against the other was dropped. Since there was no confession by the shooter, it remains uncertain exactly what happened.

It is possible that Bill Frye lost his life because he had the gun, that a would-be-robber chose to take him out. But Alan Frye thinks that his uncle was more likely shot for some other reason, possibly lingering rage over his refusal earlier to sell the youths cigarettes.

Dave Neusel, owner of Big Ed's Pizza in Oak Ridge, carries a .45-caliber handgun at work, sometimes more openly than at other times. On Dec. 13, he thwarted a robbery attempt as he was leaving the store.

"Had I not had the firearm, at the very least I would have been held up," he said. "I look at it as an ounce of prevention."

The robber fired several wild shots as he ran away, but Neusel did not fire back, he said, because he was by then under safe cover and no longer in danger.

"If this is their choice to deter robbery, then so be it," Rob Wilcox, spokesman for the pro-gun control group Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said of business owners who wear guns. "But I have not seen any statistical evidence that it would deter a robbery, or that it would not deter robbery."

John Lott, a former economics and law professor at the University of Chicago, is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime." He said states that issue the most handgun carry permits generally have the biggest drop in violent crime, but the value of carrying weapons in the open versus concealing them not been thoroughly studied .

"My guess is that criminals are more likely to stay away from stores that have (guns openly displayed)," or will just take out the armed employee first, he said. But from among a group of people who may have concealed guns, a criminal would have the disadvantage of not knowing who might be armed and willing to defend themselves.

"Minnesota recently adopted a concealed carry law, and some businesses put up signs proclaiming that they were 'gun free,' " Lott said. "A couple of those stores have been robbed. So there has been a move among some store owners to reconsider advertising the fact that they are not armed."


http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_2229035,00.html

TallPine
September 9, 2003, 05:42 PM
How is he doing that? It looks like the holster is just clipped onto the bib overall fabric where it buttons on the side. Doesn't look very secure.

When I open carry with overalls, I usually have jeans and belt on underneath, and just leave the right side buttons open.

vanbeast
September 9, 2003, 10:04 PM
Paddle holster....?

4v50 Gary
September 9, 2003, 10:26 PM
No objection, but I hope they're taught handgun retention and other safety techniques to prevent take-aways.

Moparmike
September 9, 2003, 10:41 PM
Wait a minute....isnt this a thread duplicate? I swear I have seen it before...

RVSinOK
September 9, 2003, 10:41 PM
Awesome!

:D

willyjixx
September 9, 2003, 11:14 PM
wonder if they care about open carrying customers?

still that is nice to see

berettaman
September 10, 2003, 06:21 AM
"The main problem I see is, if a police officer who is not familiar with
the owner rolls up on an adverse situation, it may pose a problem to
determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy," Biggs said.:fire:

3 Hard working upstanding clean cut individuals holding guns on scum-bag punk-a$$ drugged out whack-0 junky.:scrutiny:

This IS a tough one for the observationally challenged!:what:

RTFM
September 10, 2003, 08:21 AM
Knoxville Police Dept. Lt. Eddie Biggs needs to unclench his A$$ a little.

The Frye's would get allot of my business just because they appear to be decent people. Good for them in doing what they feel is the right thing to do for them.

RTFM

feedthehogs
September 10, 2003, 09:00 AM
"Minnesota recently adopted a concealed carry law, and some businesses put up signs proclaiming that they were 'gun free,' " Lott said. "A couple of those stores have been robbed. So there has been a move among some store owners to reconsider advertising the fact that they are not armed."

The sub-level of intelligence among these people just continues to amaze me.

Look, over here, I'm not armed. Come get me!

mtnbkr
September 10, 2003, 10:43 AM
3 Hard working upstanding clean cut individuals holding guns on scum-bag punk-a$$ drugged out whack-0 junky

Yeah, cause all robbers look like drugged out whackos while all store clerks look clean cut and wholesome.

Chris

Horsesense
September 10, 2003, 11:53 AM
“Interesting article. The picture that ran in the paper but isnot available in the online article shows a "Bubba" looking guy in overalls packing a Glock.”


I know “Bubba” and that sir, is not Bubba.
:neener:

Smoke
September 10, 2003, 01:19 PM
Horsesense,

Come now, sir. Bib Overalls, an apron, and a gun?

Bubba! :D

Pendragon
September 10, 2003, 01:25 PM
"I will not surrender the money, I will die first," he said. "That's not about money. This store is my life. We've sacrificed time, we've sacrificed relationships, for it. So if it comes down to just Rich or myself being the ones at risk, we are not going to just give up what we've worked so hard for."

These men should be arrested as illegal aliens in the Nation of Cowards.

Mr. Snyder would be proud.

Horsesense
September 10, 2003, 05:30 PM
Clean-shaven, no baker juice running down his chin. Bubba would have a "customized" gun and be 30lbs heavier. He dose have potential but I would rate him as a "bub":D

Futo Inu
September 10, 2003, 06:37 PM
but ummm, open carry for extended periods of time in public calls for some RETENTION, and that cashier guy for one doesn't have it. Bad idea without requiring at least Lev 1 retention. Great idea if you do.

On the lighter side..."What part of 'only 20 items in the Express Lane' don't you understand?" :evil:

voilsb
September 10, 2003, 07:02 PM
I'd shop there, if I was in the area.

Heck, I'd try to get a job there, if I lived in those parts.

citizen
September 10, 2003, 07:35 PM
just musing.....I wonder if they stock ammo??....:confused:

WonderNine
September 10, 2003, 08:17 PM
Heck, I'd try to get a job there, if I lived in those parts.

I agree, that'd be a cool part time job where I could open carry my BHP all day. :D :D :D !!!

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