.380 VS 9x18 short (Kurtz)


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george29
September 20, 2008, 12:43 AM
I see J&G has both for sale, what's the difference? Are they interchangeable? Which is the more powerful round and why? Both are from CZ.

I understand that the .380 is 9 x 17 and the other is a 9 x 18, I mean, what the heck is going on?

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azhunter122
September 20, 2008, 12:47 AM
I'm not sure but you would be able to get better SD rounds for a .380 and it is more common so I vote that one. Not sure if they're inerchangable though.

Jim Watson
September 20, 2008, 12:48 AM
I doubt they do. Either they have the advertisement wrong or you have misunderstood.
.380ACP is 9mm Kurz or 9x17.

9x18 is a common term for the Makarov round. It is a slight misnomer, the actual caliber is 9.2mm.

The two are NOT interchangeable.

There is also a true 9x18, the 1970s 9mm Police round, but I doubt that is what they are dealing in, there are few guns for it.

george29
September 20, 2008, 12:50 AM
Nein mein herr! They do have surplus 9x18's for sale, in the CZ 83 model. I looked up wikipedia, seems that the only difference is the length,
9x18mm Ultra 9.00 (.354) 18.50 (.728) 9.50 (.374) 9.50 (.374) N/A 9.50 (.374) 26.16 (1.03)
9x17mm Browning Short 9.02 (.355) 17.30 (.681) 9.50 (.374) 9.50 (.374) N/A 9.50 (.374) 24.89 (.980)
So, would that mean the 9*18 cannot be fired from a .380?
What about a .380, can it be fired from a 9*18?

JesseL
September 20, 2008, 12:53 AM
J&G has the pistols in question here:
http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/handguns/cz-surplus/cPath/16_155

Blofeld
September 20, 2008, 01:04 AM
The Makarov is, as I understand it, slightly more powerful. Ammo is not uncommon, though predominantly surplus and Wolf, Silverbear brands.

The CZ-82 is C&R eligible. Probably the greatest entry on the C&R list, and practical for SD. A unique rifling system makes it easy to clean and the barrel lasts forever.

VARifleman
September 20, 2008, 01:13 AM
The 9x18 ultra is apparently what Jim was talking about, but is NOT what those 82s are chambered in. They are chambered in 9x18 which is .363 diameter or 9x17, .355 diameter.

razorblade31
September 20, 2008, 01:13 AM
The 9x18 cz-82s are available in is 9x18 makarov, not 9x18 ultra, the rounds are different. None of them are ammunition compatible with any other, the 9x18 makarov is too fat to chamber in the other, and would result in pressure spikes if you could, the 380 is too small and won't headspace properly in guns chambered for the ohers, and 9x18 ultra is too long to chamber in the 380, and a narrower case with a smaller bullet than the makarov.

Jim Watson
September 20, 2008, 01:22 AM
No, I was not talking about 9x18 Ultra, that was the uber scarce 1930s developmental Walther for the Luftwaffe. Goering gave up on that but demanded Krieghoff Lugers.

It is commonly confused with the 1970s 9x18 Police as seen in the Walther PP Super and a few Sig-Sauer P230s. The Germans again concluded that a full house 9mm P was preferable.

The CZ 82 is chambered 9x18 Makarov, actually 9.2mm with a .364" bullet.

The CZ 83 is chambered 9x17 = 9mm Kurz = 9mm Browning Short = .380 Colt.

You cannot shoot Commie surplus 9x18 Makarov in a .380 pistol.
You can shoot a .380 in a 9x18 Makarov gun and it won't blow up, but why? Buy the gun you want and the right ammo for it.

Do not take Wikipedia as gospel.

VARifleman
September 20, 2008, 01:24 AM
Sorry Jim, my bad.

jakk280rem
September 20, 2008, 01:27 AM
9x18, aka 9mm makarov fires a .364" 90 to 100gr bullet at around 1000fps. the 9x17, aka 9mm browning, aka 9mm kurz, aka .380 acp, aka .380 auto fires a .355" 90 to 100 gr bullet about 900fps.

the 380 bullets are the same 9mm bullets we are all fammiliar with, used in the 380, 9mm, 9x21, 9x23, 357 sig, etc... the makarov on the other hand fires a slightly larger bullet that is not interchangable with other 9mm cartidges. the 9mm mak is more powerful than the 380 but limited bullet availability makes it difficult to realize the cartridges full potential. although the .380 is less powerful, greater bullet design and availability makes it the better choice for sd.

george29
September 20, 2008, 01:34 AM
Wow, thanks guys. never knew there was such a difference. Kinda makes it easier for me to stick with a .38 special.

jakk280rem
September 20, 2008, 01:36 AM
my first ever was a feg pa63 in the mak. i had to learn the difference to reload the thing. i dont reload for it much anymore. i just bought a s&w 642 i'm working up some +p stuff for.

Sunray
September 20, 2008, 01:52 AM
Wikipedia isn't the best source for info about anything. Anybody with internet access can post there. Lots of repetition of internet inspired nonsense.
"...380 bullets are the same 9mm bullets we are all fammiliar with..." Nope. Same bullet diameter, but not the same bullet weights. You won't be shooting a 125 grain bullet out of a .380. Max for a .380 is about 95 grains.

nalioth
September 20, 2008, 01:52 AM
Nein mein herr! They do have surplus 9x18's for sale, in the CZ 83 model. Hold the phone, please.

The Cz-83 is a commercially made handgun. It is available in .32 ACP, .380 ACP and 9x18 Makarov.

The Cz-82 is the military surplus model. It is only available in it's military chambering of 9x18 Makarov, and is (as mentioned) C&R eligible.

krs
September 20, 2008, 12:09 PM
I'd be surprised if a .380 cartridge didn't fall through the muzzle of a Makarov pistol or a CZ-82. I've gotta' get ready to leave or I'd try it right now.

Nalioth has it right, they're entirely different. I didn't know that the CZ-83 was available chambered for the MAK round, is it a European availability only?

I like the Makarov cartridge, and I like the nasty bullet that Silver Bears are loaded with - a 125 gr. HP loading that I've gotten 1050 - 1075 fps out of my Makarov pistols. It's a WAY more better SD round than anything commercially available in the country in .380. Works good in CZ-82's too, later models.

I have two CZ-82's and one appears to be an earlier model than the other. There's differences in the feed ramp that keep the early gun from feeding HP very well. The newer of the two feeds them fine.

I've bubba'd the ramp on the old one and got it feeding better but not better enough. Without removing the barrel it's a tough spot to work a dremel bit into :)

makarovnik
September 20, 2008, 01:36 PM
.380acp, 9x17 and 9mm kurtz are the same thing but 9x18, and 9mm ultra, and 9mm police special are different. Don't even think about trying to interchange them. The 9x18 makarov is also a slightly larger diameter than 9x17 and could lodge in the barrel of a gun chambered for .380acp. Some people say they can safely shoot .380acp in a 9x18 makarov but I wouldn't try it.

george29
September 20, 2008, 02:01 PM
from your name, sounds like you would know. I will just stick with my .38 although I do really do like the way the CZ 82 / 83 look and feel.

Quiet
September 20, 2008, 04:10 PM
Get the CZ-82 in 9x18mm.

9x18mm ammo can be aquired for less than $0.20 a round.

yesit'sloaded
September 20, 2008, 05:43 PM
Holy different 9mm calibers batman:what:
Noone even mentioned 9x19 aka The 9mm Parabellum. So there is a 9x17, 9x18,9x19,9x20 Browning Long,9x21 Gyurza,9x22 Major, and 9x23 (9mm Largo). Wow.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 20, 2008, 05:49 PM
There is no 9x18 "Kurtz"

1. There is a round known as the 9mm Kurz, aka 9mm Short, aka 9mm Browning Short, aka 9x17mm, aka .380 auto, aka .380 acp, which measures, yep, 9 by 17mms. It is NOT 9x18. Kurz means, quite simply, "short".

2. Then, there is another round known as the 9mm Makarov, aka 9x18mm, and it measures, yep, 9 by 18mms. And as jak280rem mentioned, this round takes a slightly different diameter bullet (.36 cal) than the other "9mms" (.35 cal)

Then there's the others....

Jim Watson
September 20, 2008, 06:08 PM
The 9x21 Gyurza is the Russian round, right?
The Italians also have a 9x21 for private sales which may not be in a "military" caliber. Same ballistics as 9mm P.

More?

The .356 S&W is about a 9x21.5.
There are several different 9x23s, Bergman-Bayard (Largo) and Steyr; metric designation for .38 ACP and .38 Super is 9x23SR, as well as the hot 9x23 Winchester.
Consider 9x25 Mauser Export and 9mm Winchester Magnum (9x29).
9mm Glisenti is 9x19 but lower power than Para.
9mm Japanese revolver.

There are probably some others, but I'd have to look them up.

nalioth
September 20, 2008, 07:47 PM
So there is a 9x17, 9x18,9x19,9x20 Browning Long,9x21 Gyurza,9x22 Major, and 9x23 (9mm Largo). Wow. You've got a long way to go before listing off all the currently shooting 9mm cartridges out there. . .

Greybeard
September 20, 2008, 09:32 PM
Quote: "Max for a .380 is about 95 grains."

Just a small nit to pick. "About" is the key word. I recently purchased some 100 grain hardcast Buffalo Bore in .380 "+P". And saw at the gun show today some Remington Golden Sabres, IIRC, 102 grainers.

Wes Janson
September 20, 2008, 10:07 PM
So, realistic answer...has anyone here actually ever tried firing .380 ACP in a 9x18 Mak? If the bullet is slightly undersized for the bore, and the overall case length is also just slightly short, I'm suspecting that it would quite likely "work", insofar as not exploding or causing a serious problem. I've personally witnessed individuals shoot 9x19 through a .45 ACP, and .380 ACP through a 9mm, and while none are obviously recommended, desirable, or safe, I think it's worthwhile to know what one can do in an emergency. If the zombies are coming over the hill, and all I have is a box of .380 ACP for my FEG, do I have any chance?

george29
September 30, 2008, 11:30 AM
Going to J&G today, thinking seriously about the 82 Mak for a lady friend.

chupacabrah
September 30, 2008, 01:08 PM
i just got a cz-82 the other day, i love this thing: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208959&page=2


(loaded it w/ 95 gr Hornady XTP JHPs, feeds great and reliably, and shoots accurately!)

SOG and Classicarms.us have them also.

KBintheSLC
September 30, 2008, 01:27 PM
Are they interchangeable?

No.
Use the ammo the gun was designed for.

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