how come .357/.44 magnum don't come in autoloader style hand guns?


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soulless80
September 20, 2008, 05:04 PM
why is that? i know some time back, the desert eagle 44 used 44 mag rounds, but not anymore?

i wanna grab a 357 mag but i hate revolver..

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Jim Watson
September 20, 2008, 05:09 PM
It is hard to get the long rimmed cartridges to feed out of a magazine.

Look for a Coonan Model B.

JImbothefiveth
September 20, 2008, 05:09 PM
I guess it's difficult to design an autoloader that will reliably feed rimmed cartridges, but I don't understand why it's so troublesome to feed the .357 mag cartridge but not 12 gauge.

rcmodel
September 20, 2008, 05:10 PM
Mostly because they use a rimmed case.

Auto pistol cartridges are almost always rimless designs, because they work in single or double stack magazines much better then rimmed revolver cases.

There are also very few auto-pistols strong enough to handle .44 mag pressures. (The Automag uses a gas operated rotary bolt very similar to the AR-15 rifle.)

The length of the .357 & .44 mag ammo also demands a very huge grip, because they are much longer then any auto pistol caliber.
The guns are just too big for most people to handle either comfortably, or quickly.

Shotguns & lever-action rifles using rimmed cartridges almost universally use a tube magazine, and have a shell-lifter in the action to get the shell up to, and in line with the chamber.
No room for that in a short handy pistol.

rcmodel

Vern Humphrey
September 20, 2008, 05:21 PM
I don't understand why it's so troublesome to feed the .357 mag cartridge but not 12 gauge.

The 12 gauge is mostly fed from a tublar magazine, not a box magazine. Three fifty-sevens feed nicely from tublar magazines, as in replica M92 Winchesters or in Marlin lever guns.

novaDAK
September 20, 2008, 05:22 PM
box (detachable) magazine fed 12ga shotguns have their own problems.

novaDAK
September 20, 2008, 05:24 PM
If you want .357mag performance in an autoloader take a look at a .357sig pistol. Completely separate cartridge but it duplicates the 125gr Magnum's performance. You still don't have the ability to use any bullets heavier than 147gr in that caliber though.

Pat Cannon
September 20, 2008, 05:33 PM
Get over your hate! :)

Or find a Coonan (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg179-e.htm), as was said. A guy who shot in a league with me a few years ago had one, and he liked hot ammo. That thing was scary. And very cool.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
September 20, 2008, 05:40 PM
i know some time back, the desert eagle 44 used 44 mag rounds, but not anymore?


Desert Eagle was chambered in .357 as well.

i hate revolver..

What the...!!!:mad::fire::cuss::barf::confused::eek:

Seriously, please explain the hate.

I don't like autoloaders for the simple reason that looking for and picking up brass is not my idea of a good time. I love revolvers for everything that they are and can do.

ranger335v
September 20, 2008, 05:46 PM
"I don't understand why it's so troublesome to feed the .357 mag cartridge but not 12 gauge."

I think it might have something to do with the oveall size of the firearm. :)

Few autoloaders can contain the pressure/power of magnum ammunition. And those few that do are 1) expensive, 2) heavy, 3) expensive.

Bottom line; get revolvers for power, get autos for spray and pray. I love my .357 & .44 wheel guns. And my old GI 1911 too.

soulless80
September 20, 2008, 06:02 PM
well, the only reason i hate revolver hand guns is that, most aren't the best looking. reloading ammos is slower (unless with a speed loader or whatever you call it). I guess you can say, looks matters to me too. Performance matters too, yes! I want both

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
September 20, 2008, 06:20 PM
Performance matters too, yes! I want both

Now we are getting somewhere. Performance says it all. Revolver trumps semi-auto. Just watch where you place your thumb/appendages when shooting the big calibers, meaning anything more powerful than .38 spl.

i hate revolver hand guns is that, most aren't the best looking.

Stick around here and you may change your mind. For starters, go through the sticky "Revolver picture thread of all time".

reloading ammos is slower (unless with a speed loader or whatever you call it).

Of course you need speedloaders! Try reloading a Glock without a magazine some time. Watch this video till the end. Jerry is THE BEST but the video shows you the possibilities:)

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/38877/fast_shooter/

JImbothefiveth
September 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
Performance on what? If you are being atacked by bears, you'll probably want a magnum revolver.

If you are worried about being attacked by thugs, now you'll want something differant.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
September 20, 2008, 06:34 PM
If you are worried about being attacked by thugs, now you'll want something differant.

Then you need "firepower". Would an 8-shot N frame have enough firepower for eight thugs?:)

rcmodel
September 20, 2008, 06:39 PM
Spray & Pray ain't all it's cracked up to be in the video games!

rcmodel

BigBlock
September 20, 2008, 06:41 PM
Why? Because everybody knows autoloaders are for sissys. Only REAL men carry revolvers. :neener:

jordan1948
September 20, 2008, 06:49 PM
As far I know DEagles are still availible in .357 and .44

NonConformist
September 20, 2008, 07:06 PM
Find a 44 AutoMag-

sniper7369
September 20, 2008, 07:26 PM
Well, I'm an auto guy. BUT, after I picked up my S&W 686 I am a convert. :D
Now, I still carry, shoot, reload for, and love my autos as much as I used to, but it seems that the 686 gets a hundred or so more rounds through it each week than any of the other guns.
Try one, you just might like it. :scrutiny:

gwnorth
September 20, 2008, 08:08 PM
How on earth would you get your hand around the grip for a .357 auto? To accomodate those long .38, .357 etc cartridges, the magazine well and grip would have to be huge.

eg. 9mm cartridge vs .38
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Image12.gif

Noxx
September 21, 2008, 01:03 AM
Never seen a Coonan before. There's a couple on Gunbroker. Very interesting. Interesting in the sort of way that annoys my wife.......innnnnnnnteressssting.

Scottmkiv
September 21, 2008, 02:00 AM
I've always wondered if it would be possible to angle the cartridges in a magazine upwards. This would let you fit longer rounds inside a shorter magwell. You wouldn't be able to fit as many obviously.

Sport45
September 21, 2008, 09:35 AM
22lr is a rimmed cartridge and works very reliably in autoloading pistols. They do have to rake the magazine a good bit to prevent the rim-over jam. The grip angle might be uncomfortable if the same was done with a more potent cartridge.

Poohgyrr
September 21, 2008, 10:24 AM
For a carry .357 Magnum Automatic, the Coonan model B is real hard to beat.

Just a tad longer grip than the standard 1911, and very accurate & reliable (when lubed per the manufacturer's directions). Only problems might be the cost of magazines, and the barrel tab. Holsters are stocked by Horseshoe Leather, or have a custom rig made.

Mine was the most often most accurate pistol for me. Truly a great autoloading pistol. I only sold it because of my goofy worries about the mag costs and replacing the barrel if needed..

Otherwise, buy one of S&W's eight shot N frames, with moonclips, and be very, very, very happy. :D:D:D

And sorry, but the .357 Sigs don't duplicate the heavy bullet loads; they are limited in what they can do....

MCgunner
September 21, 2008, 11:51 AM
Revolvers are stronger platforms and can contain higher pressures than a locked breach auto. In order to fire a .44 mag, you have to have a gas operated gun like the Desert Eagle, the size and weight of a carbine. Might as well just buy yourself a Marlin 94 or Rossi 92 carbine, better gun for the purpose of hunting, longer barrel, more shootable off hand. An auto can feed a rimmed cartridge no problem. Look at all the .22LRs out there. My Mk2 never misses a beat! It's the pressures an auto can't deal with, not a normal sized locked breach auto. The Coonan had issues beyond feeding and the .357 isn't that rough compared to a .44 on the firearm.

Hatred of revolvers makes no sense at all. For some uses, like outdoors or hunting, revolvers are vastly superior to autos. There is nothing you can argue about an auto that is necessary in the field. Their advantages of firepower and reload speed and concealment advantages are real for self defense and CCW, but do not apply to deer hunting or hiking afield. A revolver is normally more accurate, many times much more accurate, more powerful, and more versatile in the loads it can fire without problems. You can go from .38 wadcutter for rabbits to 800 ft lb loads in .357 magnum for flattening larger game like deer and hogs, all in the same 6" gun and with a sight adjustment as your only requirement. My favorite revolvers will group under 2" at 50 yards. I've never fired an auto that accurate. The Desert Eagles are supposed to be pretty accurate, but again, a carbine on a sling is easier to carry and shoot.

It's all about strength of design. Stength is one of the reasons I really prefer single action revolvers for field use to DA guns. Ruger Blackhawks are some of the strongest field guns out there and nothing sort of a 98 Mauser beats a Freedom Arms single action for strength. DAs chambered for stuff like 454 casull tend to take on the qualities of a Desert Eagle, better off with a slinged carbine, easier to carry and shoot.

So, like it or not, revolvers have advantages over autos and they aren't dead yet for concealed carry! They also have advantages for self defense, though I tend to carry a small auto most of the time. I love my revolvers, though. And, aside from my MK 2 and my carry, a Kel Tec P11, I find myself shooting revolvers the most at the range. Don't have to police up all that brass, just dump and put back in the box for reloading later. Get into reloading and you'll really learn to appriciate that advantage. LOL

As to .357 Sig, and excersize in marketing. There is no 800 ft lb 180 grain load for .357 sig and my light bullet loads out perform anything a Sig can do. I'd rather have a .45ACP or .40 Smith if hi cap concerned me. Just looking at energies, nothing the .357 sig can do that a +P .45ACP or a standard pressure .40 can't duplicate with a bigger bullet. The Sig is all advertizing/marketing hype. It don't even come remotely close to the .357 magnum for horsepower or usefulness in the real world. No one I know would hunt deer with one, let alone rely on it for outdoor carry in bear country or something.

Z71
September 21, 2008, 11:59 AM
duplicate post! Sorry!

Z71
September 21, 2008, 12:10 PM
I have a Desert Eagle .357 magnum. Really a great pistol. However it will only work with full power 158gr jacketed bullet loads, and it is large and heavy!

The Desert Eagle in .357 mag is sort of like having a Browning 50 caliber machine gun in 5.56mm!

Seriously, it is a great pistol. Reliable and accurate. Kind of neat how the rimmed ammo stacks into the magazines. I've never had any issues with the rims hanging up.

For what a Desert Eagle costs(I inherited mine), a person could buy two or three top quality revolvers!

Harley Quinn
September 21, 2008, 03:26 PM
There are a few inbetweens 10 mm is a good one and then of course you can go with the desert eagle and the 50 cal 44 combo. The 45 acp+p is a pretty good home round or not...

The 357 mag. is a real good round and one that has been used by many...In home defense the 357 Sig is a good one, but I would go for the 9+p with the extra cap mags if it was a situation, where, wanted.

I have many weapons and I change them around, not as much as I change knives though :)

The revolver is where many like the heavie's and rightfully so...But there are plenty of weapons to go around...Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades I guess...The petty arguements are just that, petty...

Practice to hit what you aim at is more important than arguing between a 357 or another, that is close to perfect, for another person...Must be why there are so many weapons available...

;)

The Lone Haranguer
September 21, 2008, 05:55 PM
There was a pistol resembling a giant 1911 called the LAR Grizzly that had an available chambering in .44 Magnum. (It was originally made for a purpose-built autoloader cartridge, the .45 Winchester Magnum.) It is neither light nor handy, however. I believe the company is still in business, but no longer making handguns.

LightningMan
September 21, 2008, 06:42 PM
If it were me and wanted the power of a .357 in an auto pistol I would have to get a 10mm. I don't know all the ballistic's but both can use up to 180 grain bullets, maybe a bit heavier and push them near the same velocities. I'm sorry, I don't have my loading manual handy but I think they are close. LM

Virginian
September 21, 2008, 08:25 PM
So buy a Desert Eagle. I think someone was running a sale on spare tires for the bipods not long ago.:)

MCgunner
September 21, 2008, 09:00 PM
If it were me and wanted the power of a .357 in an auto pistol I would have to get a 10mm. I don't know all the ballistic's but both can use up to 180 grain bullets, maybe a bit heavier and push them near the same velocities. I'm sorry, I don't have my loading manual handy but I think they are close. LM

The ten will do anything the .357 will do (other than shoot .38s) and can do it with bigger bullets. However, some of the 1911s like the Delta were a little fragile in this caliber, a little much for a normal size/strength locked breach gun. There are a few guns out there, though, in 10 that have a good reputation like the G20, awesome gun, fired one before. 10mm IS your .357 auto IMHO.

The .45ACP +P loads will push over 500 ft lbs energy with a BIG bullet of course. You really need no more for self defense from an auto. Ditto the .40 S&W if you like .357 energy levels. I'm not sure there really is a NEED for a .357 auto, probably why the Coonan died. It's not an autoloader round, case is made for revolvers.

Poohgyrr
September 22, 2008, 07:00 AM
"need" ?? What does need have to do with guns?? :D

No longer in my safe, but this standard 5" Model B fed everything I gave it without a hitch. Reliable, and one of my most accurate pistols ever.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3758/coonansparks0oa.jpg


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6907/coonan357magnum2cf.jpg

highorder
September 22, 2008, 10:21 AM
As far I know DEagles are still availible in .357 and .44

AHHH! The pain! Another tidbit of my soul claimed by the "D" word!...

bflobill_69
September 22, 2008, 11:59 AM
Why would you wanna fire .38/.357 out of anything but a REVOVER =b?

Bflobill

Phil DeGraves
September 22, 2008, 12:06 PM
So basically, you can get a .357 mag s/auto pistol that throws th ebrass all over the place and is ammo sensitive, that you can't shoot .38 Specials in or a revolver that will function with either light or heavy loads and you don't have to chase your brass.

.357 mag is a REVOLVER cartridge. You can build a pistol that it will work in but it was designed for a revolver and therefore is most efficient in a revolver platform. .45 ACP was designed for an auto pistol. You can build a revolver for it, but it works best in an auto pistol. If you want .357 mag performance in an auto pistol, go with the .357 SIG, .38 Super, or 9mm+P+. If you want .45 ACP performance in a revolver get a .45 Colt or .44 Special.

Actually, the .45 ACP revolvers work better and are more justifiable than .the .357 mag autos.

sargenv
September 22, 2008, 12:12 PM
There was one other variant out there back about 15 or 20 years ago. LAR made it's "Grizzly Mag" that had a changeover for 45 Win Mag, 10 mm, and 357 magnum. A friend of mine had one with all the accessories. I wonder if he ever sold it or if he still has it.

jjohnson
September 22, 2008, 12:29 PM
Um..... my Ruger target .22s MK1 and 22/45 both shoot ammo that's rimmed. :eek:

They do it reliably, too. Just because it's easier to engineer an auto pistol to deal with rimless and revolvers to use a rim, the reverse CAN be done successfully in both cases. To think otherwise is simply wrong.

That being said, the larger rims on ammo developed for double action revolvers to give the extractor enough purchase to reliably do its job just doesn't work as well as a rimless design. It makes engineering a bit more ticklish, but the people who regularly shoot Smith M52s have proven it can be done. Ruger convertibles will headspace their 9mm and .45ACP cartridges properly in their cylinders.

Sorry, I see a big deal of difference between positions of "it can't be done" and "it's difficult."

Archer1945
September 22, 2008, 12:47 PM
If you want .357Mag performance in a semi-auto you have two choices; the new 357 Sig, which is a .40S&W cartridge necked down to take .357 bullets or, the 38 Super which was designed from day one to put .357Mag capabilities in a 1911 style weapon. The 38 Super was not very popular in the US for many years because except for law enforcement and a few afficionados, who loved its inherent accuracy, nobody wanted it because the .45ACP was king of the semi-autos. Lately it has been rediscovered by the IDPA/IPSC shooters because of its accuracy and ability to meet major classification without having to push the safety envelope the way you have to get a 9mm to meet major.

Vern Humphrey
September 22, 2008, 01:10 PM
The 38 Super was not very popular in the US for many years because except for law enforcement and a few afficionados, who loved its inherent accuracy

Actually, the .38 Super is inherently inaccurate. The reason is that it is a semi-rimless cartridge designed to headspace on the rim. Modern guns (including newer M1911s) chambered for the .38 Super have a slightly different chamber configuration designed to headspace on the case mouth (like the .45 ACP). So chambered, the .38 Super can turn in gilt-edged accuracy, but it wasn't always that way.

highorder
September 22, 2008, 01:54 PM
the new 357 Sig

ok, I giggled a bit on that one. :)

The 357Sig is now 14 years old... time flies.

PRM
September 22, 2008, 02:12 PM
well, the only reason i hate revolver hand guns is that, most aren't the best looking. souless80

I'm not talking performance - but how do you compare a slabsided piece of black polymer to a dome blue, bone case hardened frame, with elephant ivory grips. If you really want to get fancy throw in some class A engraving.

Guess beauty truly is in the eyes of the beholder!!!

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