[agricola]

This may not have reached you yet....... its at times like this I wish we still had the death penalty. To point some stuff out, CID (in this case probably GMP's Special Branch) habitually do not wear the protective vests. Armed units arent always assigned to searches, even of "terrorist" premises, although no doubt all future linked search warrants will be armed to the teeth.

In case anyone hasnt heard of the background to this, last week Special Branch apparently cracked one or more terrorist cells in the UK who were engaged in the production of the poison Ricin; there have been at least two other searches and people are still being sought.


Officer killed during terrorism raid


Police have sealed off the flat where the stabbing occurred

A police officer has died and four others have been injured during a counter terrorism operation in Manchester.
The 40-year-old plain clothed detective constable was treated at the scene on Tuesday night for stab wounds but died later in hospital.

The operation was linked to the discovery of the deadly poison ricin in a north London flat last week and to the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorism operation, police have confirmed.

Another officer is reported to have been knifed in the arm and is being treated at North Manchester General Hospital where his condition has been described as "critical".

The injuries happened as Greater Manchester Police officers and immigration officials raided premises in Crumpsall, north Manchester, on Tuesday at 1750 GMT to detain a man under counter terrorism legislation.

Prime Minister Tony Blair and Home Secretary David Blunkett have condemned the killing.

'No protective clothing'

Greater Manchester Police's Assistant Chief Constable Alan Green told reporters the officers had been attacked by a large kitchen knife after they entered a property in Crumpsall Lane to detain one man.

Some of the police officers were not wearing protective clothing, he said.

The three men who were arrested were thought to be of North African origin, said police.

Mr Green paid tribute to the officer who died and has not yet been named.

"We have lost a colleague and many people have lost a friend".

Mr Blair said: "It is an appalling tragedy and wicked in the extreme."

Mr Blunkett added: "My thoughts are with all of those injured and my deepest condolences go out to the families of the officer who was killed".

'Struggle

Witnesses at the scene said a struggle broke out during the arrests and described the three men being taken from flat.

Five officers involved were two detective constables, one detective inspector, one uniformed sergeant and one uniformed police constable.

The junction of Crumpsall Lane and Middleton Road has been closed to traffic.

Shortly after 2000 GMT, officers wearing chemical suits entered the property.

Police said the three-storey Victorian semi, where the arrests took place, is split into several separate apartments.

Residents said the suburban street is normally a quiet area.

One resident said: "It's shocking something like this has happened."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2659133.stm

of course, condolences to the man's family.

[Mike Irwin]

Saw a show last week on protective vesting. One of the examples given was of a female PC in West Midlands (I think) whose parents bought her a knife and bullet resistant vest becuase the police weren't issuing them.

She and her partner (the guy looked like he had tuberculosis, skeletal is NOT the word for it!) attempted to apprehend a known suspect when he stabbed her.

Her vest stopped it, and he went to jail for about 30 minutes.

[Blackhawk]

This may not have reached you yet....... its at times like this I wish we still had the death penalty. Who are you, and what have you done with our agricola?

(Anyway, glad you finally surfaced....)

[Jeff White]

Agricola,
Like you, I am angered at the loss of a brother officer. Be assured that all of us over here mourn with you.

I hope it doesn't take as long for the issue and routine wear of body armor to become as common over there as it is here now. It was a long hard road to get officers to wear the body armor and finally get most departments to issue it or re-imburse the officer for it.

Stay safe my friend...I'm going to post this thread at my PD.

Jeff

[Drizzt]

How effective is standard body armor against a knife?



....and by the way, good to see you here Agricola......

;)

[El Tejon]

Driz, not really unless you have the stuff the turnkeys wear.

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, sad day, Ag.

General question: What sort of vest does it take to protect against a stab? From what I've read, vests are generally more vulnerable to penetration by a sharp-pointed item such as a knife, compared to a blunt-nosed bullet.

Art

[NewShooter78]

I don't know the specific models, but a lot of companies are now making stab resistant vests.

[Old Fuff]

Question: Were any of these officers armed with a firearm? If so, why didn't they use it to protect themselves?

[agricola]

It should be pointed out that the officers "on the beat" over here are issued with protective vests that are proof against knives and are alledgedly proof against handgun rounds. The days where people had to go out and buy their own are, thankfully, over.

Its unlikely that anyone on the raid was armed - since noone was shot - and, as I tried to explain, this is understandable given that there was some failure of intelligence (they were apparently expecting one man instead of three)

[ACP230]

"...attacked by a large butcher knife..."

I guess no one was holding it, it just attacked.

[jmbg29]

its at times like this I wish we still had the death penaltyHear, hear!

It is time for everyone to get serious. This is all going to get far worse before any of it gets better. It's unlikely that anyone on the raid was armed - since no one was shot - and, as I tried to explain, this is understandable given that there was some failure of intelligence (they were apparently expecting one man instead of three)Going unarmed against people known to brew poison. [SHAKE HEAD]AAAAGGGHHH!!!![/SHAKE HEAD]

Pray tell me, someone, anyone, who wouldn't expect people that do things like brew one of the deadliest poisons on planet Earth, to be armed to the teeth? These people are mad dog killers. They will kill you with:cuss:ing dental floss if you give them half a chance. WAKE UP!!!!!

Go in to get one, expect a dozen. For a dozen, expect a hundred...just never underestimate the enemy."...attacked by a large butcher knife..."

I guess no one was holding it, it just attacked.They didn't want to be seen as rude by suggesting that a death-cult nut would do something as diabolical as carving a cop like a Christmas goose. Mustn't offend you know!

A good and decent person died for no other reason than absurd and negligent Police policy. I hope that the U.K. wakes up in time, I really do. :( :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

[Jeff White]

jmbg29,

Believe it or not, the same lunacy about going unarmed after possibly armed people goes on here in corrections.

I'll never forget the evening four members of the Tactical Unit from a nearby state prison showed up at the station. It seems that there had been an escape from another prison and the escapee had family in our town. The warden had sent them out to check the relatives house and pick the escapee up if he was there. He declined to permit them to go by the armory and draw firearms though. So there they were, resplendent in their bright orange squad suits with all their tactical equipment, and no firearms.

They asked if a couple of us would kindly accompany them to the relatives house. We did and found no one at home...

Agricola,
Are you saying that they had body armor and just refused to wear it?

I think that you all might as well bite the bullet (pun intended ;)) and arm the police.

Jeff

[Mike Irwin]

From what I've seen there are a couple of types of knife resistant vests.

One type uses several meshes of woven stainless steel wire.

Another type uses the equivilent of medieval mail -- titanium wire loops welded around each other. That should add a lot of resistance to bullet penetration, too.

Another type uses light-weight overlapping plates sort of like scale mail.

Just when you thought we were advancing, the dark ages are back, with all the old kinds of armor.

[jmbg29]

Believe it or not, the same lunacy about going unarmed after possibly armed people goes on here in corrections.Sadly, nothing surprises me anymore. :fire:

[igor]

Some years back when Kevlar was the thing, our people experimented some with these steel mesh vests and sleeves - the threat up here is way primarily edged weapons, not so much bullets.

The sleeves I would have taken any time, but production didn't become viable.

Nowadays modern bullet-proof will defeat edged weapons very well. The problem back then was that a thin enough point could work its way through the protective fabric, not actually cutting it but sliding in between the strands of the weave - modern fibers are tougher and a whole lot thinner. Basically a spike thin enough to penetrate would be too fragile to do the job.

The steel mesh sleeves were still coarse enough for a dedicated spike to come through like a hot iron in butter. A fillet knife could be pushed about 3-4 mm deep through it, no problem there.

Blackhawk, :p :D ROTFLMAO

[Baba Louie]

They have this thing called "chain mail" if I remember my history books. Wouldn't happen to have a suit or two lying around there in sunny old England, eh wot?

"Stop", or I'll say "Stop" again".

Adios

[TheeBadOne]

Perhaps the police were worried about having their actions called "Gestopo like tactics" if they went in otherwise.

[agricola]

exactly threebadone

[Tamara]

Perhaps the police were worried about having their actions called "Gestopo like tactics" if they went in otherwise.

You'd be surprised at the difference in public opinion when the suspects being rounded up are terrorists making WMDs instead of, say, a vacationing family and their dog. ;)

[TheeBadOne]

It's still MMQB (Monday Morning QuarterBacking). Goes both ways. http://www.thehighroad.org/images/icons/icon13.gif http://www.thehighroad.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Tamara]

It does indeed go both ways. You can look at it as "Monday Morning Quarterbacking", or you can look at it as "taxpayers performing employee evaluations". ;)

[Jeff White]

New York Times
January 15, 2003

British Officer Slain, 4 Hurt as Terror Suspects Are Seized

By Warren Hoge

LONDON, Jan. 14 — A police officer was stabbed to death and four others were wounded tonight during the arrests of three terror suspects in Manchester that the police said were linked to the discovery last week of the deadly poison ricin in London.

The 40-year-old officer, whose name was withheld, was attacked by one of the suspects wielding a kitchen knife, who temporarily broke free after the police had held the men in custody for 30 minutes.

Of the four wounded officers, three were stabbed and the other suffered a broken ankle. None of the injuries were life-threatening.

In London, Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was shocked and saddened. "It is an appalling tragedy and wicked in the extreme," he said.

The news came after word from the English Channel city of Bournemouth that six people arrested Monday by antiterrorism police and initially thought to be connected to the London ricin case were found instead to have been involved in a terrorism hoax and possible immigration infractions. The police would not elaborate on the incident, but terror charges were withdrawn against all six, and police blamed reports of their possible involvement with ricin to newspaper speculation.

Tonight, Alan Green, the Greater Manchester assistant chief constable, said the stabbing victim died at North Manchester General Hospital after having received emergency treatment at the scene.

Mr. Green said he was unable to give details about the operation tonight but could confirm that the raid was tied to arrests by Scotland Yard in recent days in London. A spokeswoman for the Manchester police said the three men arrested tonight were North Africans.

In the London case, the lethal toxin ricin was discovered in an apartment in a neighborhood where four Algerian immigrants accused of plotting a terror attack had lived. The neighborhood, known as Wood Green, has been infiltrated in recent years by radicalized Algerians who left their country in the 1990's after military officers took power from an elected Islamic government.

The four Algerians, Samir Feddag, 26, his brother Mouloud Feddag, 18, Mustapha Taleb, 33, and a 17-year-old who was not identified for legal reasons were formally charged with chemical weapons and terror offenses on Monday in Bow Street Magistrates Court in London and must appear Friday.

Ricin (pronounced RICE-in) is a deadly poison made from castor beans, with no antidote. While it cannot kill masses of people, it is a feared terror substance because it can be made easily. Its discovery here has created nervousness among Londoners who fear attacks on subways or in shopping malls.

Michael Todd, the Greater Manchester chief constable, said a number of officers from the tactical aid unit were wearing protective equipment this afternoon when they entered the premises and were being supported by special branch intelligence officers.

"During the course of the search, one of the suspects managed to get free, get a knife and stab a number of our officers," he said. "One, a 40-year-old special branch officer, was sadly killed."

Mr. Todd said the operation was "intelligence-led," aimed at capturing a particular person. "We had no suspicion that we were likely to find ricin on the premises — we were looking for an individual."

He said forensic tests were being carried out on the scene, "but there is nothing to indicate anything of that nature is there."

The terrorism act under which the Manchester police acted came into force two years ago, and provided police and security officials with wider powers to deal with the threat of terror. The act defined terrorism as the use of menace intended to influence the government or intimidate the public in furtherance of a political, religious or ideological cause.

[GinSlinger]

Some vest companies are working with ceramic plates. These plates are still too bulky for practical use in the field, but are rapidly approaching deployment. These plates (the bulkier ones) are finding their way into bomb squad use. The newer, thinner, plates will be multi-purpose. They will be designed to stop rounds, and bullets, and shrapnel from pipe bombs.

As an aside, another company is working with a personal version of reactive armor. Something I certainly wouldn't want to be wearing:eek:

GinSlinger

[4v50 Gary]

Years ago there use to be a program whereby U.S. cops could donate their "old" used vests to their Bobby counterpart. Perhaps we should see if it still exists.

[Art Eatman]

Gee, Gary, not only are we going back to medieval armor, we're going back to the style of 1939-1941, but now maybe sending vests instead of rifles to Merrye Olde Blighty.

Why does the phrase "slow learner" keep coming to mind?

:D, Art

[cordex]

Agricola,
its at times like this I wish we still had the death penalty
Yes, it is terrible, but why is the murder of a police officer more deserving of the death penalty than the murder of any other innocent human?

Igor,
Nowadays modern bullet-proof will defeat edged weapons very well.
Maybe some of the modern bullet-resistant armor, but certainly not the majority that I've come in contact with.
Last body armor I owned was 1999 mfg Second Chance IIA which specifically stated that it was not stab resistant.

[Bog]

Yes, it is terrible, but why is the murder of a police officer more deserving of the death penalty than the murder of any other innocent human?

Thank you, Cordex, for once more cutting to the quick.

We had two young girls murdered last year by a couple of people, one of whom was working for a local school. Oh, we had horror, we had sadness..... but nothing like this. And nothing like the two women who were shot, for that matter, but they seem to have somewhat fallen by the wayside with this bobby stabbed by alleged tangoes.

Agricola, I am sorry you've lost a fellow officer. I am sorry when any human life is lost. But have you seen the news, and the talk in parliament recently?

The armed gendemerié which you said you so didn't want looks to be forced on us regardless of anyone's wishes, the same way Vicar Tony is dragging us into war with Iraq.

*sighs*

Can't help but notice that it's a lot more important when one of yours gets slain than one of ours.

Ours equalling civillians, in case nobody noticed.

[jmbg29]

You'd be surprised at the difference in public opinion when the suspects being rounded up are terrorists making WMDs instead of, say, a vacationing family and their dog.You might also be surprised that some folks would expect that information gleaned from a known crime scene - the Ricin apt./lab - would have a much greater likelihood of producing more actual dangerous felons. Therefore, plenty of (armored) police would be advisable.

Some of us lend zero to no credence to anonymous hysterical phone calls that describe scenes that could have any number of logical, non-criminal, causes. We would tend to approach such scenes with great skepticism, relying on our situational awareness skills to escalate the level of perceived threat [I]only[I/] if it became necessary.

Then again, critical thinking skills, situational awareness, common sense and discernment are almost totally passe. Hence we have some police that ignore warnings of the presence of pet dogs, and other police that leap into the midst of known two-legged mad dogs unarmed and clue free.

The end product in both cases is senseless and tragic.

:banghead:

[jmbg29]

Ours equalling civillians, in case nobody noticed.Noticed about 227 years ago.