Carry Class / CCW Badges


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frankcostanza
September 21, 2008, 08:01 PM
I just took my carry class yesterday at the Williamson County sheriffs dept. The class was excellent, and I would highly recommend it to anyone in the Nashville area who is looking at getting their HCP. Anyways, one thing that the instructors (who are all current or former deputies) kept talking about is the CCW badges that are so often flamed on this site. They actually recommended them, and had some for sale! I was quite surprised, but what they had to say did make sense. They cited several examples of times that people had diffused a potentially dangerous situation by making the badge visible. Regardless, I didnt buy one and I still am of the mindset that the badges arent a great idea but I did find it unusual that these LEO's and former LEO's were so keen on the idea of someone basically trying to impersonate a cop. I know we have discussed the badges at length, but I dont ever remember hearing about CCW instructors actually endorsing them. Anyone else have a similar experience?

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Ragnar Danneskjold
September 21, 2008, 08:04 PM
and had some for sale!

That about sums it up. They were saying what they needed to say to sell you something. The overwhelming opinion of people who aren't trying to come between you and your money is that CCW badges are a bad idea.

romma
September 21, 2008, 08:13 PM
I would like to see some proof in the media with an old article somewhere with the headline "CCW Badge Saves Permit Holder"...

Not buying it for a split second.

Quoheleth
September 21, 2008, 08:14 PM
In fact, I bet in some areas carrying that kind of badge could get you in HOT water for "impersonating" a police officer!

Q

Rokyudai
September 21, 2008, 08:15 PM
Sounds like a good laugh to be enjoyed by the LEO's off duty... when they are at the bar spending the extra money they just made. :neener:

sacp81170a
September 21, 2008, 08:23 PM
Just yesterday I had the same question come up in my CCW class. For the 400th time I ticked off the reasons why it's probably not a good idea.
Reason #1:

THE FEWER PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOU HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT, THE BETTER!

Ahem, sorry for shouting. Aside from all the problems with being mistaken for a police officer, the temptation to flash the badge to get out of a situation leads to disclosing the fact that you have a concealed weapon, which DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF KEEPING YOUR WEAPON CONCEALED! Sorry, I was shouting again, didn't mean to.

Really, people who don't like you can cause you endless problems if they know you carry concealed. Don't tell your neighbors, don't tell your friends(unless you have to because you're carrying at their house and you're required to by law), and don't tell anybody who doesn't really, really, really need to know.

Rookie cops are prone to this syndrome too(telling people they're cops), but most get over it about the 100th someone asks them a "favor" because they're a police officer. Don't put yourself in that position, please.

I'm really surprised these guys would push badges on y'all. :scrutiny:

frankcostanza
September 21, 2008, 08:25 PM
Sounds like a good laugh to be enjoyed by the LEO's off duty... when they are at the bar spending the extra money they just made.

Well, about half of the class of 25 bought a badge, and at 50 and 60 bucks a pop.... well thats a nice little beer fund theyve got going. ;)

sacp81170a
September 21, 2008, 08:26 PM
about half of the class of 25 bought a badge, and at 50 and 60 bucks a pop.... well thats a nice little beer fund theyve got going.

Sadly, that tells me all I need to know... :banghead:

Sistema1927
September 21, 2008, 08:26 PM
They actually recommended them, and had some for sale!

Have you ever heard anyone say: "I have these things for sale, but I don't recommend them"?

Pretty sleazy.

romma
September 21, 2008, 08:39 PM
Who paid $50, and who paid $60?

For $60 I suppose you get the "Gold Shield Detective Model"...

You may even get to be part of the post incident investigation if you have to use your firearm while carrying your "shield"...

mgregg85
September 21, 2008, 08:42 PM
Well, about half of the class of 25 bought a badge, and at 50 and 60 bucks a pop.... well thats a nice little beer fund theyve got going.

50% fools, thats probably an average cross section of society, one half fools.

Did they sell the neck chain badge carrier too? That would really top off the whole thing, to wear a CCW badge on a neck chain or on your waist.

Loosedhorse
September 21, 2008, 08:42 PM
In fact, I bet in some areas carrying that kind of badge could get you in HOT water for "impersonating" a police officer!

It's actually worse than that. If you talk to LEOs--perhaps one will back me up on this--they have been taught that, in particular, one type of offender likes "official" badges that are modeled after LE badges.

That offender type is a child sexual predator, who uses the badge to dupe the kid (much easier to dupe a kid than an adult with this ploy).

Also, I think that the LEOs (again--please speak up if I'm wrong) are NOT any more impressed if you show them a badge AND a permit; and are unlikely to be soothed if you show them your CCW "badge," but, "gosh, I musta left my license at home--but the badge is good enough, right?" :uhoh:

Daddy, get your baby outta jail!

Treo
September 21, 2008, 08:48 PM
about half of the class of 25 bought a badge, and at 50 and 60 bucks a pop.... well thats a nice little beer fund theyve got going.

Free market economy at work.

I had a boss once that told me that the key to sales isn't getting people to buy things they want & need, they'll do that on their own.

The key, he said, was convincing people to buy things they don't want and don't need.

Apparently he's teaching ccw these days

Eric F
September 21, 2008, 08:54 PM
They actually recommended them, and had some for sale!and at 50 and 60 bucks a pop:scrutiny::confused::eek:
Any chance you could post the school or pm me with an email address I would like to send them some info of my own.

other than that................ beer fund?...............more like crack as thats what they are smoking for those prices!

So really what was the name of the school and did it use the words mall ninja any where?

Jim K
September 21, 2008, 09:11 PM
Remember the charge of impersonating an officer does not just depend on what you do or say, but on what someone else's perception is. In other words, if someone THINKS you are a cop and bases some action on that, you could be in deep doo-doo. And since flashing a badge is, to most people, an action associated with a police officer, just saying that you didn't claim to be a cop or that your badge says "CCW" might not be good enough to avoid trouble.

Jim

NonConformist
September 21, 2008, 09:18 PM
The only time I see that badge doing any good is if it on your belt just in front of your gun and your cover garment blows open revealing your gun

The sheeple w/ see a badge and go w/ it or if they dont call the Police

Other than that I dont see it, LE here arent pro-gun anyway and that would just be icing on their attitude trip cake!

Eric F
September 21, 2008, 09:33 PM
Remember the charge of impersonating an officer does not just depend on what you do or say, but on what someone else's perception is. In other words, if someone THINKS you are a cop and bases some action on that, you could be in deep doo-doo. And since flashing a badge is, to most people, an action associated with a police officer, just saying that you didn't claim to be a cop or that your badge says "CCW" might not be good enough to avoid trouble.

5 years ago a Local paid city firefighter got charged for impersonating based on having a badge in his wallet. He opened his wallet to get his id out going into a beer tent at a carnival. He was off duty and a Rent a cop saw it he walked right up and asked "are you a police officer" reply "no I am a firefighter" responce "your under arrest" Short story even shorter. The rent a cop did his thing the sheriff dept transported firefighter was charged as such posted bail was found not guilty sued the security company and the city. Ended up getting $25k after all was said and done. Some of the money was for a 4 month suspention until his case could be heard.

welldoya
September 21, 2008, 10:03 PM
I didn't know that security guards could arrest people. In fact, other than a "citizien's arrest", I'm pretty sure they can't.
It would be interesting to know if those badges for sale were department sanctioned or just some cops making extra money.
Cops are just human, sounds like greed is coming into play here. You couldn't GIVE me one of those badges. Nothing good can come out of carrying one.

ezypikns
September 21, 2008, 10:26 PM
THE FEWER PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOU HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT, THE BETTER!

Like the man said.

bigjohnson
September 21, 2008, 11:06 PM
$50 - $60 bucks for a CCW badge???? Whoever bought one of those things got ripped off big time. The gun store where I work has them for sale for $19.95, and they're made by Blackinton, who are about the best in the badge business. We don't sell very many of them, but now and then someone will come in asking for one.

Soybomb
September 21, 2008, 11:11 PM
The class was excellent, and I would highly recommend it to anyone in the Nashville area who is looking at getting their HCP. Anyways, one thing that the instructors (who are all current or former deputies) kept talking about is the CCW badges that are so often flamed on this site. They actually recommended them
Based on that recommendation alone I'd be suspect of the other things you were taught. As with most stuff, be sure you're getting multiple sources for your information and the least trustworthy people are usually the ones selling you something.

lesgeaux
September 21, 2008, 11:25 PM
Not to put a bee in anyones bonnet. And not that I have any, two or three ccw badges, in my glove box, watch pocket, under my pillow.
What if you have to get into a gunfight, I for one would like some type of way to let the B & W rolling up to know that I am the good guy. What is one to do?

loneviking
September 22, 2008, 12:55 AM
Not to put a bee in anyones bonnet. And not that I have any, two or three ccw badges, in my glove box, watch pocket, under my pillow.
What if you have to get into a gunfight, I for one would like some type of way to let the B & W rolling up to know that I am the good guy. What is one to do?



Call 911 ASAP and make sure the dispatcher knows who you are and your physical description. If you're the shooter, you be the first one to call 911 after the action dies down!

Car Knocker
September 22, 2008, 01:19 AM
I for one would like some type of way to let the B & W rolling up to know that I am the good guy. What is one to do?
If a cop thinks a guy flashing a mail-order badge is a "good guy", I'd hate to bet on his chances of surviving to collect a pension!

frankcostanza
September 22, 2008, 09:23 AM
The only time I see that badge doing any good is if it on your belt just in front of your gun and your cover garment blows open revealing your gun

This is exactly the way they recommended using the badge. They weren't trying to convince everyone to buy one, or say that everyone who carries needs one. Like I said guys, all in all it was a great class. The instructors were knowledgable and competent and I would recommend the same class to anyone in a heartbeat. I dont want anyone to think that Im trying to make these guys look like amateurs or mall ninjas, becasue they were far from it. I just thought it was a strange thing to see and hear at a ccw class.

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 22, 2008, 10:07 AM
Instead of buying a badge, just look like a good guy. You know, been clean shaven or trimmed, decent haircut, presentable clothes. Just don't look sloppy or gangsta. I open carry at times, and other time I carry concealed but don't mind if it shows. I just wear nice pants, and a polo or button down shirt. I've got a crew cut and I'm clean shaven. I look the part of a good guy to most people. I don't have to go out of my way with trinkets to make them think I'm a cop or something. I would be some of them assume I am, but I'm not doing anything to foster that image other than my appearance. Now other times when I am wearing jeans a a t-shirt and hanging out at night with friends, I make more of an effort to be concealed. Just look like a respectable good guy, and most people will just assume you are.

hankdatank1362
September 22, 2008, 10:24 AM
I think the badge would be a good idea to assuade the irrational fears of some sheeple, but I would be waaaayyy too embarassed to wear one.

ZeSpectre
September 22, 2008, 10:31 AM
The only time I see that badge doing any good is if it on your belt just in front of your gun and your cover garment blows open revealing your gun. The sheeple see a badge they don't call the Police.

I never had the "badge ruminations" because when I originally CCWed I already had a badge. However after I left that line of work the above notion did occur to me a few times.

I wondered if something non-badge like such as this (see below) would have been a good idea for those accidental reveals. (Just your "permit", no badge to cause confusion.)
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/zespectre/beltIDholder3.jpg


Never went forward to test the idea though and really have never needed it so I never went back to the concept.

NavyLCDR
September 22, 2008, 10:31 AM
So why not just buy the badge, and wear it instead of a gun if it is such a good deterrant? Why even bother with the permit at all?

frankcostanza
September 22, 2008, 12:33 PM
I think the badge would be a good idea to assuade the irrational fears of some sheeple, but I would be waaaayyy too embarassed to wear one.

My thoughts exactly

RaspberrySurprise
September 22, 2008, 12:51 PM
These just sound like an overall bad plan.

rc109a
September 22, 2008, 12:58 PM
NonConformist
Other than that I dont see it, LE here arent pro-gun anyway and that would just be icing on their attitude trip cake!
Is that in your part of the world or on THR? Just need a little clearing up. Thanks...

scottgun
September 22, 2008, 12:59 PM
Remember the thread that asked "are we cops?"

The answer is clearly No, and in conjuction with that, we don't need a badge. Not only do CCW holders not need a badge, a badge is a very bad idea if you are not a LEO, because it may appear like you are impersonating an officer.

IndianaBoy
September 22, 2008, 01:06 PM
A ccw badge would be a terrible thing to show to sheeple. Why reinforce their assertions that people who carry are wannabe cops?

Terrible idea.

bflobill_69
September 22, 2008, 01:55 PM
Quote: "THE FEWER PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOU HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT, THE BETTER!"

Otherwise why not open carry (if your state permits).

Why would you ever want to "advertise" your carrying a loaded firearm on your person? HELLO?

The Badge is a very bad idea... period

Bflobill_69

Majic
September 22, 2008, 02:20 PM
Why go thru the expense and effort to conceal a handgun then announce to the world that you are armed?

WNC Seabee
September 22, 2008, 02:46 PM
ZeSpecter....I like your ID card idea.

People see anything at all that looks "official" or business like and they'll tend to be assuaged. I like this a lot better than a fake badge. If you accidentally show your "concealed" piece, it could very well avoid some soccer mom from freaking out without giving anyone that knows better the false impression that you're LEO or wannabe LEO.

c1ogden
September 22, 2008, 07:23 PM
Most of us (cops) are of the opinion that, since badges are symbols of authority, it should be illegal for anyone who does not have arrest authority to have a badge.

I do agree that it is nice to see from a distance and know that the armed man approaching is "friend" as opposed to "foe" but the public can't be trusted with them. Every week we read of "fake cops" stopping vehicles and robbing, raping, or murdering people.

I have personally confiscated dozens of badges from politicians, former cops, firefighters, ambulance drivers, and security guards who tried passing themselves off as officers.

dalepres
September 22, 2008, 11:05 PM
I don't understand why some people think that their CCW means they need or deserve a badge. Sounds pretty mall-ninja-ish to me. Flashing a badge that says you're carrying a concealed weapon is, at a minimum, the same thing as flashing *edit: as in brandishing* your weapon. It seems very much like impersonating a cop. And the scariest part of it is that the person carrying the concealed weapon and CCW badge thinks he's a cop. The only thing scarier than a bully cop is a bully wannabe cop.

dalepres
September 22, 2008, 11:06 PM
I have personally confiscated dozens of badges from politicians, former cops, firefighters, ambulance drivers, and security guards who tried passing themselves off as officers.

Good first step. But how many were arrested or prosecuted?

Kind of Blued
September 22, 2008, 11:13 PM
The only practical purpose I can imagine is if they are pointy and sharp enough to use as a chinese start should one run out of ammo. :uhoh: :)

dalepres
September 22, 2008, 11:14 PM
I wondered if something non-badge like such as this (see below) would have been a good idea for those accidental reveals. (Just your "permit", no badge to cause confusion.)

That way you can get all of the shoot-me-first risks of open carry with none of the quicker-access-to-your-weapon benefits of open carry. Again, besides being very mall-ninja-ish, it's still brandishing.

The answer to the accidental reveal when concealed carrying is to not accidentally reveal. And to not act like it is a big deal if it does happen.

Anyone with a PC and a printer could fake an id like what you show in your id holder. That would be easier for a fake cop to do than a badge is to do. If I were a cop checking a report of a man with a gun, that id wouldn't slow me from cuffing you and putting you face first any more than not having it. Maybe I'd be more inclined because of the id. If I were a cop, I don't think a CCW holder would scare me but a mall ninja would scare the hell out of me.

MJRW
September 22, 2008, 11:17 PM
For 60 bucks, you can give each of those people my phone number, and when they need to get somewhere fast, they can hold their cell phone out the window while I make siren noises real loud like. The flashing lights will be up to them, though.

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 23, 2008, 12:17 AM
Most of us (cops) are of the opinion that, since badges are symbols of authority, it should be illegal for anyone who does not have arrest authority to have a badge.

What about all of the former cops, ambulance drivers, and especially firefighters who have been issued badges from their agencies? Do they not deserve them?

larry_minn
September 23, 2008, 12:25 AM
Dang... I always have said. "I will get a CCW Badge when the Sheriff ISSUES me one with my permit" Thankfully they are still CHARGING $$ for them (and not in MN) :) :)

FFMedic
September 23, 2008, 12:30 AM
Hmmm, I have 2 badges from both my fire departments and I can't arrest anybody. Should I throw them out?

The Maltese Cross (the basis of nearly all FD badges) dates back WAY further that any LEO badge... 11th century if I remember correctly.

By the way, ambulance driver is an insult, like calling a cop a pig. Some people are actually too dumb to make the distinction but many use it as a jab in everyday conversation.

FFMedic

DMF
September 23, 2008, 12:57 AM
. . . and had some for sale!Their motivation is MONEY, not doing the right thing. Some folks will do anything to make a buck.

In some places impersonating a peace officer is a felony, and that badge could land you in serious trouble.

Also, if you are not a cop you don't have backup readily available. So if someone decides to target YOU because they think you're a cop, you're aren't going to be able to quickly rally the cavalry for assistance. That targeting of you may also be in the form of an ambush. This is the reason I don't carry my badge on my belt when in plainclothes or off duty. If I have a reason for displaying my badge it will require a conscious move to remove it from my pocket where it's concealed from view.

IMO, the "CCW badges" are a bad idea, and anyone that buys them or sells them is a fool.

DMF
September 23, 2008, 12:58 AM
Hmmm, I have 2 badges from both my fire departments and I can't arrest anybody. Should I throw them out?No you shouldn't throw them out, but you also shouldn't be clipping them to your belt in front of your gun.

wuchak
September 23, 2008, 01:06 AM
One of the members, Jim Macklin, over at the Kansas Concealed Carry site sent a letter to the KS Attorney General's office asking about CCW badges. Here is the answer. http://www.ksccw.com/site/showthread.php?t=8176&highlight=badge

"Reply from KS AG on badges
Mr. Macklin,

Under the current false impersonation statute, K.S.A. 21-3824, yes, merely flashing a badge could be viewed as impersonation of a Law Enforcement officer. In State v. Messer, 278 Kan. 161, 164 (2004), the Kansas Supreme Court reaffirmed that the false impersonation statute “does not require proof of an overt act beyond the false representation itself, and it does not require proof of a specific intent to deceive.”

A concealed carry license, at this point in time, is what the Legislature deemed sufficient for a licensee to show their status as such. Chances are, if a licensee is printing and someone calls law enforcement about it, law enforcement will be on scene to handle the situation before the person inquires about the firearm and the licensee has a chance to clear the air. Additionally, the reality of the situation is that, unless the individual is recognized as law enforcement with jurisdiction in the matter, anyone with a weapon drawn will be forced to disarm and be detained on scene until everything has been sufficiently cleared up…no matter what sort of badge or documentation that person is holding up.

Charles W. Klebe
Assistant Attorney General
Concealed Carry Unit"

If you are thinking about getting one you should contact your own state's AG office. I think the OP should check with his and let the AG know that the police are trying to sell them to CCW students. Somehow I don't think that is an approved activity, and it's one that could land a purchaser in a lot of hot water down the line.

FFMedic
September 23, 2008, 01:13 AM
Well the one I carry daily is a pin on style, in a badge billfold when I'm not in my class A or B of course, then it's on my shirt.

The Chief and Asst. Chief wear theirs on clips on their belt's. So does the inspector, right next to his M&P 40, but he has police powers.

My comment was aimed at the LEO who said; "Most of us (cops) are of the opinion that, since badges are symbols of authority, it should be illegal for anyone who does not have arrest authority to have a badge. "

I find that statement upsetting because it says to me "I'm above you all" and I find it ironic because long before police had shields and stars other public servents were wearing badges, and it was more of an award for bravery, not a symbol of authority.

I really hope there are a lot of LEOs thinking, "this guy's not with us".

FFMedic

Justin
September 23, 2008, 01:24 AM
Concealed carry badges carry the same legal weight as, but are nowhere near as awesome as my badge:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=85136&d=1222147482

In all seriousness, I find it unconscionable that any CCW instructor would try to shill a product that may very well result in their students getting arrested by a cop who takes a dim view of wannabe's.

Tacbandit
September 23, 2008, 01:27 AM
A lot of departments frown on that type of stuff...I'd go the other direction...:uhoh:

dalepres
September 23, 2008, 09:30 PM
What about all of the former cops, ambulance drivers, and especially firefighters who have been issued badges from their agencies? Do they not deserve them?

Hmmm, I have 2 badges from both my fire departments and I can't arrest anybody. Should I throw them out?

For the two who wrote the above posts:

I have personally confiscated dozens of badges from politicians, former cops, firefighters, ambulance drivers, and security guards who tried passing themselves off as officers.

He didn't say you shouldn't have badges. He spoke about badges from non-LEOs being used to try to pass the holder off as a LEO.

You should keep your badges but your badges have nothing at all to do with your weapon. To associate them is to, at a minimum, pretend to be a cop even if it doesn't go so far as to be considered impersonating a cop. If you walk around off duty showing your badge I call you nothing more than a mall ninja.

NC Dave
September 23, 2008, 09:36 PM
Just curious....if these instructors were selling worthless, useless, "I'm a cop wannabe" badges for $50 to $60 a pop, what the heck were they charging for the class? :what:

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 23, 2008, 09:39 PM
He spoke about badges from non-LEOs being used to try to pass the holder off as a LEO.
No he didn't. He said
Most of us (cops) are of the opinion that, since badges are symbols of authority, it should be illegal for anyone who does not have arrest authority to have a badge

It doesn't get any plainer than that. Except there are people and agencies who have legit badges that don't have arrest authority. He said it should be illegal for anyone who does not have arrest authority to have a badge. Not that anyone who has a badge should not present it as a some sort of CCW or fake-cop badge.

CombatArmsUSAF
September 23, 2008, 09:57 PM
The only purpose I can see to having a badge is something like a mall shooting scenario. You have the BG, yourself, maybe an off duty cop or another CCW in the area, and you display the badge from a previously concealed location. This may prevent you from being engaged as the BG. Personally, I think I would rather face a thin possibility of being charged with impersonating than to accidentally get shot by another good guy.

I am not saying I would run into a situation like this but what if your in the immediate area when the shooting starts?

Maia007
September 23, 2008, 10:34 PM
And they say the West Coast is weird.......

dmazur
September 24, 2008, 12:22 AM
You have the BG, yourself, maybe an off duty cop or another CCW in the area, and you display the badge from a previously concealed location.

Double tap the BG, kick his gun away, look around for more BG's and say, "Someone call 911!". Very unlikely you will be perceived as a BG...

By the way, Gold Hat ("Treasure of the Sierra Madre") had the correct response to the badges issue. :)


...and, no, I have absolutely no desire to be involved in a shooting, especially in a mall!

XavierBreath
September 24, 2008, 12:32 AM
They were selling shirts in my class. I really prefer the shirts. The badges don't have the same visibility in high intensity coffee shop raids. If you really want to be safe when the SHTF, you gotta get the shirt.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=85175&stc=1&d=1222230679



;)

dmazur
September 24, 2008, 01:17 AM
That's a real shirt? Too funny!

I think I feel left out. Without mandatory training, our local law enforcement is obviously missing out on a significant source of revenue.

Now I'll have to peruse the Internet to find a shirt like that. I wonder if I can get one with an inside pocket for a trauma plate. :)

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 24, 2008, 01:25 AM
Make sure you get a big CCW patch to put on your body armor when it covers up the shirt.

Eric F
September 24, 2008, 06:10 AM
Well there is this line of thought............
If the issueing agency wanted you to have a badge they would have given one to you with your permit.
I have never seen any good come from a badge that was not issued to any one, The 10% discount at waffle house isnt worth the trouble folks.

Geno
September 24, 2008, 06:32 AM
Xaviar:

Excellent CCW t-shirt example. But, remember, always buy the smallest and tightest version of the t-shirt to make the "CCW" more "observable" <<Tongue-in-cheek>>.

Doc2005

XavierBreath
September 24, 2008, 06:40 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=85179&stc=1&d=1222252975
Has anyone seen the CCW Crown Victoria?

Geno
September 24, 2008, 06:44 AM
Can someone please design a CCW hard hat, already?! I prefer construction site yellow, and I want it to have a nice red, flashing light on top. Oh yeah, a utility belt for my portable CB radio too.

Grey_Mana
September 24, 2008, 07:04 AM
In a wierd situation, if some random guy flashes a fake badge, he's just gone from yellow to orange on my 'do I need to shoot this guy to protect myself' situational awareness meter.

Normal civilians don't flash badges. Bad guys and crazies do. Especially if you are acting like a cop, being authoritative and taking control of a situation, and then you flash a fake badge - you're much more threatening than you were before.

Just as an example - I cut you off in traffic because I'm late, the guy in front slams on his brakes for no reason, you rear-end me. We get out, you're mad because it's clearly my fault but I'm saying 'you rear-ended me @#!%! your insurance is paying' and so the situation progresses to the point where you show your weapon and or/badge. You've just gone from driver to pyscho.

762 shooter
September 24, 2008, 07:05 AM
The XavierBreath shirt sums up the idiocy of this premise.

I want one.

AlaskaErik
September 24, 2008, 12:55 PM
Has anyone seen the CCW Crown Victoria?


I'm still waiting to see that Mall Ninja van from that thread a month or two ago.

GEM
September 24, 2008, 02:16 PM
There's an auction for a used Crown Vict where I work. Maybe I should get one with my tinfoil hat.

RobNDenver
September 24, 2008, 02:34 PM
I would take their suggestions with a grain of salt, since they have a reason to sell you the badges. I have never been in a situation where showing the badge alone did anything to resolve a situation. In fact, when I was a rookie and badged a spithead, all it did was give him an opportunity to get closer "Hey lemme see that, I don't think that is a real badge". When I badged other cops at a scene they were local and knew what our stars looked like. I would be super suspicious of a badge I was not familiar with.

Leave the badges to the cops and firefighters that are issued them.

Soybomb
September 24, 2008, 05:55 PM
There's an auction for a used Crown Vict where I work.
Ride in one first, drivers see a white crown vic with a light on it and you'll find you're always stuck behind people who are doing 5 under the speed limit where they used to do 20 over in your old car :D

Cosmoline
September 24, 2008, 06:04 PM
Badges make you look like a wanabe, and can damage your credibility both with the responding officers and any eventual jury.

Beyond that, I have enormous moral problems with the things. Carrying a firearm does not make you a special kind of citizen. It does not make you a "warrior" or put you in some position of law enforcement. Thinking that it does can lead to all sorts of trouble.

What if you have to get into a gunfight, I for one would like some type of way to let the B & W rolling up to know that I am the good guy. What is one to do?

Drop or holster your firearm and keep your hands up.

bogie
September 24, 2008, 06:06 PM
Plus, the "rumor on the street" is that crooks like to buy used police cars for their rides...

Personally, I'd like to score an ambulance, with a diesel.

Justin, do you have high resolution art for that?

Gottahaveone
September 24, 2008, 07:09 PM
For 60 bucks, you can give each of those people my phone number, and when they need to get somewhere fast, they can hold their cell phone out the window while I make siren noises real loud like.

Shame on you, I nearly wet myself :)

dalepres
September 24, 2008, 10:39 PM
The only purpose I can see to having a badge is something like a mall shooting scenario. You have the BG, yourself, maybe an off duty cop or another CCW in the area, and you display the badge from a previously concealed location. This may prevent you from being engaged as the BG.

How or why would you be engaged as the bad guy? You could always do nothing and not get engaged.

And what would keep bad guys from buying CCW badges and flashing them?

dalepres
September 24, 2008, 10:49 PM
I find that statement upsetting because it says to me "I'm above you all" and I find it ironic because long before police had shields and stars other public servents were wearing badges, and it was more of an award for bravery, not a symbol of authority.

Medals are the appropriate award for bravery. Badges are given for identification. And I am just about as fast as anyone to call LEO on elitism but in the case of a badge and a gun and the powers of arrest that go with them, that is the role of LEOs. You do not need a badge for a citizen's arrest (where legal) and shouldn't display a badge as part of a citizen's arrest. The LEO badge represents the special powers and authority that we have asked of them and given them. They use it on the job and, hopefully, on the job only.

If you're a medic, feel free to present your badge before putting a band-aid on me.

If you're a fireman, feel free to present your badge before putting out my house fire. And don't get me wrong; the real heroes in our country, more than any other group I am aware of, are firemen. Just don't use your badge as a backup to your gun.

And if you're a cop, please present your badge before shooting me... and give me a chance to surrender first.

dalepres
September 24, 2008, 10:53 PM
If you really want to be safe when the SHTF, you gotta get the shirt.

Only if the shirt is level IV bullet proof.

c1ogden
September 24, 2008, 11:12 PM
"I find that statement upsetting because it says to me "I'm above you all"

No, it doesn't really say that. It says we are different in a way that has a dramatic effect on public safety. We have the authority to detain and arrest people, nobody else does. However, many other people try to trick others into thinking that they have such authority by "flashing" a badge. When such trickery is successful, it frequently leads to the rape, robbery, or murder of those who have been tricked. This happens dozens of times a year (see O.J. in Vegas for a recent example).


"and I find it ironic because long before police had shields and stars other public servents were wearing badges, and it was more of an award for bravery, not a symbol of authority."

We're not talking about long ago, we're talking about now and right now the problem of misuse of badges is more common than the problem of misuse of guns.

In the past few years I have seen a politician (a former councilman/police commissioner) try to pass himself off as a cop to get out of a speeding ticket, saw a local fireman chase what he thought was a traffic violator while flashing his badge out the window and yelling for the guy to stop, another former fireman chasing another "violator" with flashing police lights in his car, an ambulance squad member (who is trying to get a job as a cop) wave his badge at a group of teenagers while yelling "Police! Hold it right there." A friend of mine arrested a fireman who was waving an illegal gun around a parking lot and when the cop rolled up he flashed his badge and said "Its okay, I'm on the job" and tried to drive away.

Sorry if this upsets you but this is the world we live in. I know you personally would never do anything like this because, I believe, you being here (and presumably being a gun person) makes you far too responsible a citizen for that.

DMF
September 27, 2008, 06:58 PM
What if you have to get into a gunfight, I for one would like some type of way to let the B & W rolling up to know that I am the good guy. What is one to do?Drop or holster your firearm and keep your hands up.Drop, as in open your hand(s) and let the gun free fall to ground will be the only acceptable option. Trying to holster or set the gun down gently will take too long and require too much movement. The responding officers will have no way of knowing who is or is not a threat, and will likely take any excessive movement or delay as a threat to them and others. The will also likely respond to that perceived threat with deadly force.

RustyShackelford
September 27, 2008, 07:29 PM
If you ARE NOT a sworn law enforcement officer or a retired sworn LEO, I'd avoid buying or carrying a concealed carry badge...
This may get you arrested at the least and may look very bad in a criminal trial or civil case later on at worst...:rolleyes:.
There may be valid reasons for the use of a metal badge in a shooting incident but I'd say the bad outweighs the good when it comes to a badge carrying citizen in a deadly force incident.

A few years ago, after the awful events of 9-11-2001, I saw a sworn deputy US marshal in an "unmarked" SUV. This federal LEO had a "terrorist hunting permit" sticker on his vehicle's front windshield. :uhoh: IMO, if this sworn LEO had a use of force incident or had to discharge his weapon, this sticker could be used against him later on. Shark-fin lawyers and left wing politicos look for any excuse to bring down armed citizens and LEOs. Don't give them more ammo, ;).

Rusty
PS: before any members ask how I knew the federal LEO was real, he showed me his USMS badge, creds and turned on the SUV's concealed lights. :rolleyes:

Templar223
September 28, 2008, 10:11 AM
Based on that recommendation alone I'd be suspect of the other things you were taught. As with most stuff, be sure you're getting multiple sources for your information and the least trustworthy people are usually the ones selling you something.

I tend to agree.

Anyone worth their salt as an instructor is going to be highly leery, if not adamantly opposed to CCW badges. Put me in the "adamantly opposed" category.

Had a student in a class a few weeks ago insist it was a good idea. Says he'll keep it in the nightstand in case of a home invasion... cops come along, he'll hold up his badge so as not to be shot.

Wanted to know why I was so opposed to them.

"Because they're much more likely to get you arrested than to momentarily stave off friendly fire from the police."

Around these parts, impersonating a police officer is a felony.

In my view, any instructor promoting CCW badges is either inept, incompetent or has a financial interest that they are prostituting themselves for. You know, firearm instructors are like any other instructors: Some are great, most are good, some average, and a handful just plain suck.

Just as I wouldn't want to learn to fly a plane from a "just plain suck" instructor, I wouldn't encourage anyone to get firearm and/or judicious use of force instruction from piss poor instructors. Their advice might well get you killed or in the case of guns, imprisoned.

John

lehcpa
September 28, 2008, 11:36 AM
I think that the CCW badges have no place. I will also add that a badge itself means nothing. It is completely appropriate to ask any person who carries a badge for photo identification as real evidence of the person's position.

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