Brother is moving to PRK


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Tom Fury
September 22, 2008, 05:50 AM
To pursue new job; LA or Sacramento; He owns two Colts; What are the current California laws for keeping them at home?
Thanks, TF

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Quiet
September 22, 2008, 06:12 AM
Go to calguns.com to learn more about CA gun laws.

Two Colts is kinda vague, can you clarify? Two Colt pistols, rifles, machineguns?

Aguila Blanca
September 22, 2008, 09:25 AM
Any handgun brought into CA has to be on the CA DOJ list of approved makes & models. Some of Colt's models are approved -- typically the ones with the Series 80 firing pin safety. If your brother's Colt's have that, they are probably okay -- but he should verify. I believe the list is available on-line.

If his Colts don't have a firing pin safety, they are not on the approved list and he cannot bring them into CA. I believe that is the case even if he is relocating permanently into the state.

NavyLCDR
September 22, 2008, 09:31 AM
Since his brother lives in the UK and can't keep his pistols, he must give them to a HighRoad member who lives in a less restrictive state, such as Washington, to keep them for him and ensure they are adequetly used to keep them from stangnating! :D

The truthful answer is probably what was already posted, but I don't even look into California laws because it causes me to :banghead:

ArmedBear
September 22, 2008, 09:51 AM
Any handgun brought into CA has to be on the CA DOJ list of approved makes & models.

That's NOT TRUE. Never has been true.

Please stop spreading false information about California laws. It helps nobody. (And it happens here FAR too often).

I'd advise anyone with a serious question to go to Cal Guns. At the very least, don't listen to anyone here unless they're from California, and even then, double check. Go to http://www.calguns.net for all the info you want, from Californians who make it a point to be informed and pass around good info.

Tom -- What do you mean by "Colts"?

harmonic
September 22, 2008, 09:53 AM
Any handgun brought into CA has to be on the CA DOJ list of approved makes & models

That's false. Any private party (your brother) can bring any handgun into ********** as long as it's not a) full auto or b) in possession of a magazine more than ten rounds.

The CA DOJ list applies only to guns imported into the state for/as retail sales. If you doubt it, call them. They are actually quite polite and helpful. (916) 322-3360 or (800) 952-5225.

I don't know of any Colts that are full auto or take a magazine more than ten rounds, so your brother will be fine.

He needs to realize, however, that he'll have to register his handguns with the state, along with a fee of about $20(?) per handgun. And he only has so many weeks to do this (8 weeks?).

BTW, if this is a permanent move, and if your brother has his heart set on buying a, say, Smith and Wesson model 27-2 with a 3 1/2 inch barrel someday, he'd better buy it before moving. These old, venerable guns can't be imported into the state unless they're 50 years old (or older) for sale (C&R rules). And they're getting impossible to find in the state, since all such guns must be purchased from a private party.

I forgot to add, if your brother is law enforcement, he also is exempt from the rules regarding "approved/safe" handguns and can buy pretty much anything he wants.

I had a LEO buddy who was going to ride to Sacramento with me to buy a non approved handgun until I remembered the first line on the FFL form.

NavyLCDR
September 22, 2008, 10:15 AM
Here's the specific statute. Need to be careful with California's "unsafe" handguns, because the owner may bring them with him, but he cannot loan them to anybody, that means nobody shoots them but himself...

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

But, yes, the individual can bring the "unsafe" handguns into Cali for his own use.

So here's a question, I have an "unsafe" handgun that I brought into California and I want to sell it, can I sell it to a non-Cali resident via an out of state FFL?

harmonic
September 22, 2008, 10:20 AM
So here's a question, I have an "unsafe" handgun that I brought into California and I want to sell it, can I sell it to a non-Cali resident via an out of state FFL?

If you moved into the state, and if you properly registered the handgun with the state, you can sell it to someone out of state, and you can sell it to someone in state. In state sales are called Private Party Transfers and are exempt from the approved/non approved list.

That's why private citizens who advertise such non approved handguns for sale reminded me of someone walking through a pack of dogs while holding a kitten. They get viscous!

This is, of course, the case for all but class 3 or high cap mag handguns.

Oh, pawn shops are also exempt from the list. Only, I never had any luck finding good stuff in pawn shops in the valley.

ArmedBear
September 22, 2008, 10:23 AM
Need to be careful with California's "unsafe" handguns, because the owner may bring them with him, but he cannot loan them to anybody, that means nobody shoots them but himself...

Again, this is FALSE. Please stop spreading this stuff. You need to look at the WHOLE law -- which I know is difficult, because it goes on forever. Hence, I recommend http://www.calguns.net

And NavyLT, you can sell your handgun to a California resident, or to anyone outside CA, using the normal legal means (through an FFL across state lines). You can lend your gun to a California resident. You can do whatever you want with it, within the law.

The "not unsafe" list applies only to guns brought in commercially for sale (i.e. by a dealer). If you're not a gun dealer, you are a "personal importer" and may bring guns with you when you move here, regardless of whether they're on the list -- as long as they're not banned as "assault weapons" or somesuch. You may then sell them legally to anyone who can legally buy them, including a CA resident.

The gun laws here are complex and they're stupid. I'm moving out of state in a week, myself.

But it serves NOBODY when people spread false info. PLEASE STOP!

NavyLCDR
September 22, 2008, 10:27 AM
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

You're right, I should never even had started looking! I knew this would happen!

freakshow10mm
September 22, 2008, 10:30 AM
I know a police officer in California that has his FFL also. He can get non-approved handguns in and essentially "wash" them in a PPT. He buys it, transfers it to himself, then sells it to the buyer with a PPT transaction. 100% legal and brilliant.

ArmedBear, you on Calguns with the same name? I'm on there with the same name too. I offer the CA Middle Man transfer service and am getting to know the laws over there pretty well.

harmonic
September 22, 2008, 11:16 AM
I know a police officer in California that has his FFL also. He can get non-approved handguns in and essentially "wash" them in a PPT. He buys it, transfers it to himself, then sells it to the buyer with a PPT transaction. 100% legal and brilliant.


It is not legal and is quite stupid. As an FFL he answers to the BATF, and they will not permit such antics.

Nor will the ********** DOJ.

Don't believe it? Call the kal DOJ and ask. I gave their number above. It's toll free. And call the ATF. Their number is also toll free.

Your friend is breaking the law and is bound to get caught.

Pilgrim
September 22, 2008, 12:30 PM
I know a police officer in California that has his FFL also. He can get non-approved handguns in and essentially "wash" them in a PPT. He buys it, transfers it to himself, then sells it to the buyer with a PPT transaction. 100% legal and brilliant.
I used to work in a CA 'mom and pop' gun shop. The owner was stuck with several non-SB 15 compliant pistols when the law went into effect.

BATFE told him he could transfer them to his private inventory and eventually sell them in a private party transfer, but he had to hold them in his private inventory over a year.

Pilgrim

freakshow10mm
September 22, 2008, 02:09 PM
It is not legal and is quite stupid. As an FFL he answers to the BATF, and they will not permit such antics.
There is nothing they can do about it. It is being transferred legally. It is acquired by the FFL, then transferred to the officer on a 4473, then transferred to the non FFL at the CA dealer's place.

Don't believe it? Call the kal DOJ and ask.
The DOJ can't keep their answers straight. One day they tell me all AR15 and AK47s are banned. The next day they tell me only pre ban guns are allowed.

BATFE told him he could transfer them to his private inventory and eventually sell them in a private party transfer, but he had to hold them in his private inventory over a year.
For an individually licensed FFL: He has to wait 1yr after acquiring the firearm in a personal inventory in order to not run a 4473 on the buyer.

For a corporation licensed as an FFL: 478.125a does not apply as the FFL is not the individual, it is the corporation.

Example: Freakshow Manufacturing LLC is the FFL holder, not me. A firearm can be acquired for Freakshow Manufacturing LLC's business inventory using the company FFL. If that firearm would be transferred to me personally into my personal firearms collection, a 4473 and background check must be conducted because I'm not the licensed FFL, the company is. The ATF has long held that a corporation cannot have a personal firearms collection. Since the licensee is the corporation and not me personally, that law does not apply. If the store owner in the above scenario you speak of is the personally licensed FFL holder, then 478.125a applies to him. If a corporation is the licensed FFL holder, then the ATF gave him the wrong information.

I can take the Glock 23 I have logged into the business (FFL licensee) inventory, transfer it to myself (non-licensee) on a 4473. 1 second later I can sell it FTF to someone else in my state with no paperwork beyond the state pistol sales record. Completely 100% legal.

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart H—Records

Browse Previous | Browse Next
478.125a Personal firearms collection.

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That

(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,...

Tom Fury
September 22, 2008, 05:09 PM
First of all, thanks very much for your enthusiastic response.

I should have been more clear about the "Colts"; I was trying to be generic, and failed miserably again; He has a LW Commander (Colt Slide on Caspian frame) and a LW Officers' model (All Caspian). Both EGW built, and safe as far as I know. I'm in the UK, He's in Ohio. If all else fails, they will be left with the guy who's keeping my guns in KY.

I figured he'd have to register them; how do custom jobs like that come out with the approved list tho? Do you have to have the original manufacturer's papers on it?

Cheers! TF

jakemccoy
September 22, 2008, 05:42 PM
Don't believe it? Call the kal DOJ and ask. I gave their number above. It's toll free. And call the ATF. Their number is also toll free.


Unfortunately, it has been found that reps at the DOJ consistently give out false information. Their job is to err on the side of caution when they don't know the answer. So, you may or may not get the correct answer when calling the DOJ. I know an FFL dealer who is basically out of business because reps at the DOJ scared the crap out of him. For example, a DOJ rep told him that a Saiga 308 was illegal. That's notoriously false information. Because of the DOJ, that FFL dealer no longer deals with a broad range of various firearms - what a dork. Other local FFL dealers regularly get my business from now on.

A better move is to consult with a firearms attorney or study the law yourself.

harmonic
September 22, 2008, 05:47 PM
I figured he'd have to register them; how do custom jobs like that come out with the approved list tho? Do you have to have the original manufacturer's papers on it?


Your brother will be fine. He's a private citizen and can bring them into **********. No, he doesn't need any papers. All he has to do is fill out a standard 8 1/2 X 11 form with things like his name and address, the gun's make and serial number. One form per gun. (I believe he can get it at the DMV. I least, that's where I got mine.) Then he'll mail each form in with the required $20(?) tax/registration fee per gun.

The above is based upon there being no problem with the guns' purchase history. (I.e., stolen.)

Quiet
September 22, 2008, 06:21 PM
Your brother is good to go, in bringing his two Colt pistols with him when he moves to CA.
The CA approved list does not apply to people moving to CA with their non-assault weapon/NFA handguns.

After he moves to CA, he has 60 days to register the handguns with CA DOJ.

Use this form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf) to register the handguns.

The form has space to list three handguns, if he is listing more than three handguns he needs to fill out & attach additional forms.

He needs to also include a check/money order of $19 per handgun being registered.

harmonic
September 22, 2008, 06:51 PM
The form has space to list three handguns

That's new. When I moved there I had one form per gun. Better than when I moved to Flint, Michigan, though. In Flint I had to hand carry every handgun downtown to the city govt bldg and let some fat female bureaucrat handle each gun and write down the serial number.

I felt funny walking from the parking lot to the bldg w/a box full of handguns. (It's a really seedy part of town.)

CountGlockula
September 22, 2008, 07:10 PM
Welcome to Cali!!!

Tom Fury
September 23, 2008, 10:42 AM
Quiets' form seems self explanatory; I'll pass on the good news.
Cheers, TF

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