Changing My Stance On Open Carry


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Treo
September 22, 2008, 09:55 PM
I'm about to get flamed, hard

When the O.C. debate first started becoming prevalent around THR I was pretty much against it, and for all the usual reasons.

It draws unnecessary attention, people that do it are trying to cause a scene. It makes you a target for police harassment, Yada,yada,yada.

But the more I read stories of total overreaction by the police, and the more I see THR members dog on the O.C. crowd. The more I have to ask myself; If we don't defend the ground we hold how in thee Hell do we expect to gain any new ground? ( Ask Robert E. Lee how that fighting a defensive war worked out for him)

In most of the United States no permit is required to lawfully carry a fire arm. No permit, No classes, No ( monetary)cost.

I have been open carrying recently, haven't had any problems but I do want to get a suitable holster to use.

Even if some of use choose not to open carry we all need to present a unified front to the antis.

We have two threads going right now discussing how 2 people were harassed for doing something that is totally legal in their respective jurisdictions
When some thing like this comes up we (IMO) need to clearly express our displeasure to the offending agency or retail outlet.

We have to defend the ground we have before we worry about taking more (IMO)

[/RANT]

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novaDAK
September 22, 2008, 10:39 PM
Even if some of use choose not to open carry we all need to present a unified front to the antis. Thanks for supporting OC. Gun owners need to stand together and support ALL of our rights. If they take away OC, guess what...CC is next.

kingpin008
September 22, 2008, 10:43 PM
Agreed. I find it silly at best and destructing at worst when people drop by PTK's thread simply to mention how foolish or abnormal he must be to want to carry three pistols with him when he's out and about. Who the hell cares how many he carries? If it's really that important to you, carry whatever you're comfy with and roll on.

Ugh. Anyway - I totally, completely, 100% agree with you, Treo. Whether we personally agree or not, we've got to find ways to come together on these sorts of issues.

wideym
September 22, 2008, 10:52 PM
I strongly agree with you that we need to maintain a unified front to the anitis.

It's the same as hunters talking trash about ARs and the like. Or shotgunners dissing pistol grip only shotguns. The comparisons are almost endless.

Like grandma said "Your grandpa and me have had arguments, just never in front of the kids."

Loosedhorse
September 22, 2008, 10:55 PM
Sure wish we had OC around here. Give my safe queens some sunshine-time!

:)

Wouldn't mind OC for long guns, either.

machinisttx
September 22, 2008, 11:24 PM
Meh.

Do not invite the man into your life.

Elza
September 22, 2008, 11:35 PM
I have no desire to OC but will defend the right of those that do. One loss leads to another and I'm tired of losing!

MJRW
September 22, 2008, 11:47 PM
I'm about to get flamed, too, but...

This forum has become more and more "DON'T TREAD ON ME" whenever there is discussion that includes disagreement. Get over yourselves. Sure, you've got the freedom to walk around in a tuxedo made from PPKs. Doesn't make it a good idea.

If you're going to carry a ton of hardware, so much that other people that carry scratch their heads when looking at, expect for people to say, "dude, why so much hardware?" It isn't that different than someone yelling everything as their means of expressing their right to free speech. You can expect some people to ask you to be quiet.

If you can't handle disagreement or if you frown upon dissention as disloyalty, brother, I just don't know how to have a discussion with you. There's nothing wrong with honest discussion.

Kind of Blued
September 22, 2008, 11:50 PM
That most (or many) Americans can legally carry a handgun openly without paying the government a fee is the most plain and literal example of the 2nd Amendment's existence.

Would the government freak out if EVERYBODY with a handgun that lived in an OC state started carrying openly every day? I think so. Would it be a good way for America to keep its muscles from atrophy? Absolutely.

Flyboy
September 23, 2008, 12:29 AM
I think open carry is vital to the preservation of our fundamental rights (see my post here: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4941875#post4941875).

If a government actor so much as says "boo" about you exercising your rights, sue the living hell out of him and his agency. Bullies don't stop until somebody bigger than them (like the courts) knock them on their cans.

kcshooter
September 23, 2008, 12:43 AM
It isn't that different than someone yelling everything as their means of expressing their right to free speech. You can expect some people to ask you to be quiet.

If you can't handle disagreement or if you frown upon dissention as disloyalty, brother, I just don't know how to have a discussion with you. There's nothing wrong with honest discussion. Agreed!

While I support your right to OC, I find it ridiculous that I have been told I'm not doing my part to help the cause just because I have made a decision to carry concealed.

The implications even by other members here that I am less of a supporter of the second amendment due to my personal choice on whether my gun is seen by everyone or not is insulting.

If I decide to have those who I interact with daily both personally and professionally, be they strangers, acquaintances, or friends, not need to know whether or not I happen to be carrying a weapon during our interaction, why does that seem to bother a large portion of the OC crowd so much?


I have the option for carrying either way in my area. I CHOOSE to carry concealed. Isn't that what rights are really all about?

siglite
September 23, 2008, 12:44 AM
There's nothing wrong with honest discussion.

There isn't. But there's a lot more that goes on here, and in general. It goes beyond honest discussion. There is actual condemnation. It's always struck me as being right there with duck hunters condemning EBRs. They don't do EBRs, so we may as well concede EBRs to a ban.

While, it's few and far between that you'll actually hear an OC hater call for a ban on OC, they often seem to stop just short of that.

I don't OC very often. But I'll damn sure (actually, it's a certainty if you live in WV) fight for your right to do so.

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:00 AM
I have absolutely no problem with anybody that chooses not to open carry. I think you should carry in whatever fashion you like. Just extend the same courtesy to others.

I have a major problem with people (on The High Road) who say that:
1. Anyone who open carries is [looking for attention/has a chip on their shoulder/is showing off].
2. Open carry is rude/offensive.
3. Police treating open carriers as criminals until proven otherwise is acceptable.

Aguila Blanca
September 23, 2008, 01:04 AM
In most of the United States no permit is required to lawfully carry a fire arm. No permit, No classes, No ( monetary)cost.
I don't disagree with your new position -- in fact, I agree completely -- but the statement above is just plain wrong. There are a great many states (among them the most populated and/or most densely populated) in which you cannot legally carry a handgun either openly or concealed without a license/permit. Don't fall into the trap of extrapolating to assume that what's true in your state must be true everywhere.

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:07 AM
If you're going to carry a ton of hardware, so much that other people that carry scratch their heads when looking at, expect for people to say, "dude, why so much hardware?" It isn't that different than someone yelling everything as their means of expressing their right to free speech. You can expect some people to ask you to be quiet.

There's a critical difference between yelling constantly and carrying a lot of guns.

Yelling hurts people's ears, drowns out normal conversation, etc.

Carrying an unusual quantity of guns has absolutely no impact on anyone else (unless they choose to be impacted). It should be no more cause for concern than an ugly tie.

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:12 AM
I don't disagree with your new position -- in fact, I agree completely -- but the statement above is just plain wrong. There are a great many states (among them the most populated and/or most densely populated) in which you cannot legally carry a handgun either openly or concealed without a license/permit. Don't fall into the trap of extrapolating to assume that what's true in your state must be true everywhere.

If we're going purely by geographical area, I think the OP may have been correct, licenseless open carry is legal in most of the US.

http://opencarry.org/images/opencarrymap.png

Picard
September 23, 2008, 01:13 AM
I think that open carrying is great. It keeps you safe but more importantly spreads the word about the RKBA. Now people see law-abiding gun owners who don't do what the media and movies tell them. Those evil guns don't just jump out of their holsters and attack them. It's a very powerful statement that more people should exercise. If I could, I would open carry every day. I do as often as I can.

BTW, if you're looking for a nice holster, I bought one from High Noon Holsters (http://www.highnoonholsters.com/). It's excellent.

RaisedByWolves
September 23, 2008, 01:23 AM
JessieL I respectfully disagree.



If the man in question was carrying two pistols, I would fully agree, but three? I feel this is overkill and gives the anti gun crowd some ammunition for their bias. Plus, he may have gone unnoticed had he been carrying singly.



God forbid you NEED to defend yourself or others and they find you carring mucho weaponry, it may look like your were searching out a fight.



I'm not saying that I feel this way, but it is how they think and they will try to use against all of us, so in a way, it does affect us.



BTW, I'M PRO CC/open carry.



*edit*


I live in PA and Im wondering if someone can tell me what it means that we have an "Anomalous" open carry status?

MD_Willington
September 23, 2008, 01:27 AM
That most (or many) Americans can legally carry a handgun openly without paying the government a fee is the most plain and literal example of the 2nd Amendment's existence.

Would the government freak out if EVERYBODY with a handgun that lived in an OC state started carrying openly every day? I think so. Would it be a good way for America to keep its muscles from atrophy? Absolutely.


Hey, even us legal permanent residents can open carry too (with the right piece of paper in my case), something some of us cannot do back in the country we come from.

You are a very lucky bunch indeed!

MJRW
September 23, 2008, 01:38 AM
There's a critical difference between yelling constantly and carrying a lot of guns.

Yelling hurts people's ears, drowns out normal conversation, etc.

Carrying an unusual quantity of guns has absolutely no impact on anyone else (unless they choose to be impacted). It should be no more cause for concern than an ugly tie.


Bah, minor differences. It is still a pretty flamboyant excercise. Asking someone to tone it down isn't at unreasonable.

Flyboy
September 23, 2008, 01:50 AM
Bah, minor differences. It is still a pretty flamboyant excercise. Asking someone to tone it down isn't at unreasonable.
Printing editorials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers) several times a week, in multiple newspapers, without even giving the opposition a chance to respond, "is still a pretty flamboyant exercise. Asking [them] to tone it down isn't at unreasonable."

When did exercising one's rights become "flamboyant?" When did asking somebody to "tone down" his rights become reasonable? "Gee, Dr. King, we really wish you'd tone it down a bit. Surely you can see how reasonable that would be."

<spit>

Dr. Fresh
September 23, 2008, 02:06 AM
If the man in question was carrying two pistols, I would fully agree, but three?

Does it matter to you that one of the three was an NAA mini and practically invisible?


Does it matter to you that only one of his pistols became exposed?

RaisedByWolves
September 23, 2008, 03:00 AM
No, one being seen was apparently one too many.



The way I interpret the law (not that it matters), concealed means hidden, not to be seen. If it can be seen, then it violates the CCW permit rules. I'm a good sized guy and could reasonably conceal a SBS given the right clothing, not that theres a need for that, but I could, and In my state it would be legal.



Should I biotch if it pokes out and someone panics?



Well, it was my decision to carry all that when a lesser amount of easier concealable weaponry would have sufficed. With every right comes a responsibility. With the right to CC comes the responsibility to keep things concealed. He didn't do that, he got hassled.



Since the vast majority of BG's only carry one gun, I think two would suffice.




Again, JMO, YMMV.

Armueller2001
September 23, 2008, 03:24 AM
With the right to CC comes the responsibility to keep things concealed. He didn't do that, he got hassled.

Isn't OC legal in Colorado?

loop
September 23, 2008, 03:37 AM
I am fortunate enough to live in a state, in a rural area, where open carry is not really even noticed.

A few nights ago I noticed three or us were pushing shopping carts down the same aisle at WalMart and all three of us were wearing cowboy hats and boots.

A moment later I noticed all three of us were packing, in the open.

Made me feel good to know I live in the land of the free.

I carry concealed 24/7. When I OC it means I'm carrying two guns. When I OC and drive my pickup that means I've got three.

Lord help me if I'm on my way to or from an IDPA match. I always have three pistols in the range bag, OC, one in my pocket and another under the seat when I go to a match.

If you don't like to OC, don't. OTOH, don't instruct me about the error of my ways.

And, it is true - we need to stick together. There are too many people who would take away some part of rights at any time given any opportunity.

chupacabrah
September 23, 2008, 07:23 AM
I have no desire to OC but will defend the right of those that do. One loss leads to another and I'm tired of losing!

exactly!

I agree totally with the OP. I don't want to be scared to OC just because the cops and some other people don't like it, while it is totally legal.

Mr. D
September 23, 2008, 09:02 AM
RaisedbyWolves, go to opencarry.org (http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html). That map is on their home page and is clickalble for each state. If you click on Pennsylvania, it will give a summery of laws concerning PA's status on OC. Here is the basic summery:
Pennsylvania is a traditional open carry state. There are 2 issues that prevent it from being a "Gold Star" open carry state. First, you must have a permit to open carry in the city of Philadelphia and second, you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle. However, PA recognizes the permits of all 50 states for open/concealed carry in vehicles.


I whole-heartedly support OC and would do so myself except for one thing: parents. I still live at home (not married yet) and my Dad wouldn't have a problem with me OCing, but my Mom would have a fit. She thinks it's showing off or something. I will def be OCing once I'm married, though.

Question, before do start OCing, I would like to call the the Police office and ask about their stance on OC. Who should I contact - the police chief? How do I find the right number? Also, if he doesn't know that it is legal, how do I politely educate him without inadvertently insulting or angering him?

~Dale

ZeSpectre
September 23, 2008, 09:39 AM
I have no desire to OC but will defend the right of those that do. One loss leads to another and I'm tired of losing!

That'd be me as well. Personally if (God forbid) someone picks me to play "victim" I want them to have a really serious surprise in store.

However, I get a wrench in those plans living in Virginia where I HAVE to switch to open carry if I go to any decent restaurant with friends.

(Va law requires open carry in any establishment serving alcohol)

This forum has become more and more "DON'T TREAD ON ME" whenever there is discussion that includes disagreement. Get over yourselves. Sure, you've got the freedom to walk around in a tuxedo made from PPKs. Doesn't make it a good idea.
MJRW,
Sorry, that "Straw man" tuxedo argument simply doesn't carry any weight. As for "don't tread on me", well eventually people get tired of getting stepped on when they've done nothing wrong.

TexasRifleman
September 23, 2008, 09:42 AM
I have a great desire to be able to OC, and this kind of thing is exactly why. There is a breaking point where, eventually, people just don't notice anymore. We need to get to that point.

Guns should not be seen any different hanging on a belt than a cell phone or knife.

High Planes Drifter
September 23, 2008, 09:56 AM
JesseL wrote:

I have absolutely no problem with anybody that chooses not to open carry. I think you should carry in whatever fashion you like. Just extend the same courtesy to others.

I have a major problem with people who say that:
1. Anyone who open carries is [looking for attention/has a chip on their shoulder/is showing off].
2. Open carry is rude/offensive.
3. Police treating open carriers as criminals until proven otherwise is acceptable.


Nailed it.

Flame Red
September 23, 2008, 10:17 AM
I wish we had OC here in Florida!

AntiqueCollector
September 23, 2008, 10:20 AM
Question, before do start OCing, I would like to call the the Police office and ask about their stance on OC. Who should I contact - the police chief? How do I find the right number? Also, if he doesn't know that it is legal, how do I politely educate him without inadvertently insulting or angering him?

The stance of the police legally has no bearing if it's legal. Don't call the police. Study the law carefully, know your rights, and if it makes you more comfortable carry printed copies of the applicable laws/regulations with you in case you have trouble. If they, knowing it's legal, try to stop you from doing so, file complaints, then sue if need be (in that order). Where are you, anyways (state)? And are you of the legal age to own and carry a handgun?

jahwarrior
September 23, 2008, 10:24 AM
I live in PA and Im wondering if someone can tell me what it means that we have an "Anomalous" open carry status?

i think (but don't quote me) that this means: open carry is legal by default in PA. it's not illegal, which makes it legal to do. there's no statute preventing it. having said that, many here in PA bash people who OC, warning them that continuing to do so will get OC banned.

guess what? if OCing gets banned, what do you think will get banned next? people claim that a visible gun makes them uncomfortable. you know what bothers me? the guns i can't see.

i think that it's a little ridiculous that the OP made a statement, expressing his thoughts on his personal evolution, and certain folks have derailed this thread into another stupid OC v. CC thread. how utterly mundane. is this the best you can do? people who OC are no different than those who CC, except for the fact that the public will know if an OCer is a glock fanboy or a 1911 lover. that's it.

why do i OC? simple; it's easier to do. i'm not a 2A activist, i don't have safe queens to show off, i'm not a pathological extrovert, and my penis works fine, thank you. i OC when possible, because:

1. it's much easier to draw a gun, G*D forbid, if i need to.
2. fannypacks fool no one anymore, and look stupid, frankly.
3. i'm not a photographer, and i'm not planning on going on a safari anytime soon. i refuse to wear those stupid vests.
4. it's too damn warm to wear a full length jacket in august.
5. i'd rather carry a .45ACP than a .380 most days.

i CC when i have to, like when i'm work, or when it's cold outside. i would never denigrate anyone who chose not to OC. i respect anyone who chooses to exercise his 2A right, and takes personal responsibility for his/her safety. please return the favor, and enough with the OC v. CC crap.

and kudos to Treo, for being honest. he admitted to giving people crap for OC, and recognizes that OC bashing is kind of stupid. that's being a man about things. respect his honesty, respond to his call for unity, and recognize his personal evolution, and leave it at that.

jahwarrior
September 23, 2008, 10:29 AM
Question, before do start OCing, I would like to call the the Police office and ask about their stance on OC. Who should I contact - the police chief? How do I find the right number? Also, if he doesn't know that it is legal, how do I politely educate him without inadvertently insulting or angering him?

~Dale

do not ask the police anything related to carying a gun, OC or CC. most police would discourage you from carrying, period. don't ask for advice, permission, anything. asking for either is like asking for advice or permission to speak freely in public, or to practice your religion. you ask about privileges, not about your rights. do your thing, man, and if a LEO needs educating, do it then. and if he needs further "education," do it in court, as many, many others have done, successfully.

Colt46
September 23, 2008, 10:33 AM
The mere presence of an armed citizen being disarmed at gunpoint by police and then possibly arrested and charged by the district attorney for whatever they think can possibly stick is a disgrace to the constitution.
Somehow we have allowed this sad state of affairs to become normal. By exercising our 'lost' rights we will be able to affect change.

Mr. D
September 23, 2008, 10:52 AM
Ok, thanks for the advice, guys! AntiqueCollector, I have studied up on it a fair amount. I am of legal age to carry and own (I'm 20 and I live in PA). However, I'll have to unload and lock the ammo away in the glove compartment when driving if I start carrying before I can get my LTCF. That'll be kind of a pain since my future carry piece is a revolver, but I guess that's what speedloaders are for.

~Dale

MJRW
September 23, 2008, 10:58 AM
Those of you who find it problematic that other people have an opinion of how someone does these things we do are worse than the people you have a problem with. We say, "Really? Three guns?" And then you are upset at our disagreement. Let me say this again, and this time read what I am saying: there's nothing wrong with disagreement. Those of us disagreeing aren't stepping on anyone's rights. We are not legislating things. We are not taking anything away. We are disagreeing that he makes sense. These are critical differences. If you do not know the difference between disagreeing that you're being reasonable and the government passing laws....

MJRW
September 23, 2008, 11:02 AM
Printing editorials several times a week, in multiple newspapers, without even giving the opposition a chance to respond, "is still a pretty flamboyant exercise. Asking [them] to tone it down isn't at unreasonable."

When did exercising one's rights become "flamboyant?" When did asking somebody to "tone down" his rights become reasonable? "Gee, Dr. King, we really wish you'd tone it down a bit. Surely you can see how reasonable that would be."

<spit>
__________________

Did you just e-"spit" me? Any idea how condescending that is? And we do ask them to tone down editorials. All the time. We read editorials and go, "I wish they'd shut up. Excercising the rights themselves isn't flamboyant anymore than dresses and make up are flamboyant by themselves. However, don't tell me Rupaul isn't flamboyant, and let's not pretend that rights cannot be excercised in dramatic manners.

Seriously, that e-"spit" thing, what are you thinking?

siglite
September 23, 2008, 11:03 AM
Damn. I hope you low-roaders don't get Treo's thread locked. :(

kcshooter
September 23, 2008, 12:29 PM
I have a major problem with people who say that:
1. Anyone who open carries is [looking for attention/has a chip on their shoulder/is showing off].
2. Open carry is rude/offensive.
3. Police treating open carriers as criminals until proven otherwise is acceptable.Again, while I support your right to do so regardless of my choice not to, you have to understand that
1. Some people will have this perception.
2. Some people do have this opinion.
3. While unacceptable, it is the reality that this occasionally happens.

While I understand that you would have a difference of opinion on the first two and the third is infuriating, I don't think you should have a "major problem" with those that point things like this out. That's what I've run into when stating my personal choice not to carry like this, folks with major problems with my dissenting opinion. It isn't just the CCW people who occasionally are insulting to the OC's, it is a two-way street.

I say carry how you want, just carry. Not for political motives, but to protect your life and the lives of those you care for.

jahwarrior
September 23, 2008, 12:38 PM
I say carry how you want, just carry. Not for political motives, but to protect your life and the lives of those you care for.

+1! someone gets it.

gbran
September 23, 2008, 12:47 PM
More and more people are starting to OC, so many that I predict congress will pass a national ban on the practice. Just a hunch.

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:01 PM
To me, the views that open carry is rude/offensive or that the only reason someone might want to open carry must have to do with their desire for attention or compensation for their lack of genital endowment, is as wrongheaded as the arguments that antis use about concealed carry or gun ownership in general.


Anyone who owns a gun must get off on killing.
Anyone who wants to carry a gun is just itching to shoot the next disadvantaged person who asks for a quarter.
Only a coward needs a gun.
If people are allowed to carry concealed weapons, we'll have shootouts over parking spaces and grocery lines.
The only reason to conceal your gun is so you can bait someone into mugging you and then shoot them.

:barf:

High Roaders should know better.

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:06 PM
More and more people are starting to OC, so many that I predict congress will pass a national ban on the practice. Just a hunch.

1. Congress has no authority to do such. They can't even really make the Gun Free School Zones act pass constitutional muster.
2. It was at least implied in the majority opinion for Heller that open carry is protected the the 2nd Amendment.
3. Should we stop exercising our rights so that they don't get taken away? The defense of liberty doesn't work like that.

kcshooter
September 23, 2008, 01:12 PM
High Roaders should know better.Nobody said anything about high roaders being the ones with these views. I said "some people", should I clarify by saying "some people within our society will feel this way"? Does it really need to be spelled out that plainly for you? This is a true statement, period. Sorry to tell you that, but I thought it was pretty common knowledge.

Tacbandit
September 23, 2008, 01:30 PM
OC is great...in places where it's widely accepted, right circumstances, etc...
And I don't care how many guns you carry, OC, or CCW...However, just as we may think that our non carrying friends are too sensitive about seeing a gun in
plain view on ones person(not in uniform), perhaps we could be a little more
sensitive to their perspective, to help our own cause. I.e.,........We have an
OC permit, and we're carrying...We're on our way to little Johnny/Judys' ball game...Is it so hard to pull out the shirt-tail, etc., for the duration of a kids
outdoor athletic event..?You're stilled armed...Is it so important that we have to say"Hey...look at me...I'm armed, because I have a permit, and I can be?"
I realize that most of us DON'T think that way, but does it really help our cause, as to the perspective of those non-carrying folks??? Just food for thought...Now I'll duck, as I feel the storm coming...:confused::scrutiny:

Mr. D
September 23, 2008, 01:35 PM
Tacbandit,

I do see your point, but wouldn't you agree that should be changed? Sheeple shouldn't wince or go balistic when they see a gun displayed openly. And how do we change that public perception except by OCing?

Personally, however, my main reason for wanting to OC is because it's easier and more practical for SD. Changing public perception would just be a good side-effect.

~Dale

Treo
September 23, 2008, 01:39 PM
Ya know, if this many people on THR are against us exercising our rights, We've got a rough row to hoe.

The bright spot in this is that I'm pretty opinionated and THR changed my view point so it's not impossible.

As for OC being banned, I truly think that rising crime rates work for us. As more & more people realize that you can't depend on the police to protect you, more and more people will begin to carry to protect themselves. IMO

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:40 PM
kcshooter, sorry for the misunderstanding. In my first post (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4942171&postcount=13) in the thread I was speaking about High Roaders, not the general public.

Obviously various members of the public at large hold all kinds of opinions and few of them surprise me.

Harley Quinn
September 23, 2008, 01:40 PM
Either open or concealed should have to get a lic. as far as I am concerned. Prove you can shoot and have to go to classes...Simple really...:what:
If a business does not want you in there with the weapon that is fine, it is their business...
:uhoh:

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:45 PM
Either open or concealed should have to get a lic. as far as I am concerned. Prove you can shoot and have to go to classes...Simple really...

So you believe that my state of Arizona should prohibit unlicensed open carry and require everyone who currently engages in unlicensed open carry to either stop carrying, get a permit, or go to jail? Why? What kind of harm have they been causing?

Tacbandit
September 23, 2008, 01:46 PM
"I do see your point, but wouldn't you agree that should be changed? Sheeple shouldn't wince or go balistic when they see a gun displayed openly. And how do we change that public perception except by OCing?

Personally, however, my main reason for wanting to OC is because it's easier and more practical for SD. Changing public perception would just be a good side-effect."

~Dale


Mr. D, I totally agree...People shouldn't freak out...but they do, for whatever reason...Lack of knowlege,upbringing(or lack of it), fears,phobias, whatever. I just wonder if a hard-line attitude about our rights is the only way. If you have the OC,...cool. Slight common-sense concessions(not forfeitures of rights) could go a long way...

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 01:51 PM
We have an
OC permit, and we're carrying...We're on our way to little Johnny/Judys' ball game...Is it so hard to pull out the shirt-tail, etc., for the duration of a kids
outdoor athletic event..?You're stilled armed...Is it so important that we have to say"Hey...look at me...I'm armed, because I have a permit, and I can be?"

You're overlooking one thing. In a lot of places no permit is required to open carry, but it is required for concealed carry. Someone without a permit often doesn't have the legal option to cover up their gun. I was in that situation myself for 6 years, before my wife paid for me to get a CWP for Christmas one year.

elChupacabra!
September 23, 2008, 01:59 PM
Treo,

I find myself at a conundrum of sorts... on the one hand, I wholeheartedly agree that OC is a good thing that should be exercised by EVERY "Free" American citizen who can. I agree with the quote that "if a man refuses to demand his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example."

The other part of me remembered, SOMEBODY around this board has a sig line that is pertinent to this discussion... who was it?

I'm not being sarcastic or joking at all when I say I did an alt+f for "authorities" knowing it would pull up the quote if on this page, and I was suprised to see, it's your sig line -

It is very possible that we have arrived at the time when a wise man feels the need to avoid the notice of authorities -- regardless of his personal character.

I think there is a great deal of wisdom in this statement.

To be honest, I've been wondering for the last several days whether just participating in these discussions - just being a member of this board - is a wise thing to do.

What the question really comes down to is whether we have yet reached the point where our actions are futile, or whether there is still hope for positive change.

I'm really struggling with this and don't know which way to go.

The idealist in me says I should open carry and fight for my rights.

The pessimist in me warns that that point may have passed, and drawing attention to myself at this point may only lead to loss.

Winston Churchill once said "If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

So the whole question is, which time are we in? And, if the latter, is the best way to fight by OCing?

This deeply troubles me. I do not know.

Mr. D
September 23, 2008, 02:08 PM
Tacbandit, Ok, I see what you're saying. Loose a battle now and then; win the war.

Chupacabra,

I think your quote from Churchill should answer your question. If we are in the time when we can "easily win without bloodshed" and our "victory will be sure," we had better be fighting! If the time is past that, and all the odds are against us, we should still be fighting - fighting for survival. If we are in times where there is no hope of victory, than we should be fighting so as not to live as slaves.

I'm sure you're familiar with Henry's famous quote: "Give me liberty, or give me death!" I think that applies here, whatever the case may be. You might say "ok, so we fight. But is OC the best way?" Well, what other way is there?

~Dale

Tacbandit
September 23, 2008, 02:09 PM
Quote:
"You're overlooking one thing. In a lot of places no permit is required to open carry, but it is required for concealed carry. Someone without a permit often doesn't have the legal option to cover up their gun. I was in that situation myself for 6 years, before my wife paid for me to get a CWP for Christmas one year."


You're so right...(And hooraayy for the wife). I was really addressing our
willingness to make concessions where they might benefit us overall, as to public perception, where legal of course. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sort of on the opposite side of the coin, in that mine HAS to be concealed. In so much as I want to do all I can to help, I make sure mine stays unseen, totally.
I don't advertise. From the other perspective though, if I could carry either way, I would still be willing to let good judgement over-rule my shirt tail...:)

Creature
September 23, 2008, 02:12 PM
Excellent post elChupacabra!.

Sir Winston was a very wise and crafty old man.

So, IRT to OC...no better time than the present. I have never OC'ed and I am quite nervous about doing so. But I am going to do it..because a right not exercised is a right lost.

Treo
September 23, 2008, 02:13 PM
Either open or concealed should have to get a lic. as far as I am concerned.

And what happens when the Government decides to revoke everybody's license?

Colorado allows OC sans permit and we don't seem to be killing one another.

It's been said once you license a right it's not a right any more.

ZeSpectre
September 23, 2008, 02:14 PM
The idealist in me says I should open carry and fight for my rights.

The pessimist in me warns that that point may have passed, and drawing attention to myself at this point may only lead to loss.

This sounds like you would willing to "give up liberty for security". Ben Franklin had some biting words to say on that matter.

Mind you, I struggle with it myself.

At this point in my life I feel like I have a GREAT DEAL to lose and it is very tempting to "lay low" and try to avoid notice. Yet some gnawing, relentless, drive will not allow that to be and thus someday I suspect I'm going to find myself risking it all to try and preserve the basic human rights and freedoms in which I strongly believe. I have no shame in admitting that the thought of such a situation scares me spineless which is why I work so hard NOW, within the system, to try and stave it off for as long as humanly possible.

Treo
September 23, 2008, 02:15 PM
The other part of me remembered, SOMEBODY around this board has a sig line that is pertinent to this discussion... who was it?

Time to change the sig line

As has now been done

Creature
September 23, 2008, 02:16 PM
At this point in my life I feel like I have a GREAT DEAL to lose and it is very tempting to "lay low" and try to avoid notice. Yet some gnawing, relentless, drive will not allow that to be and thus someday I suspect I'm going to find myself risking it all to try and preserve the basic human rights and freedoms in which I strongly believe.

Liberty and old age are not for the faint of heart.

Tacbandit
September 23, 2008, 02:20 PM
Any Arizona poster...What are the laws/requirements/restrictions about OC in your state, as they apply to each resident...Just curious...
Thanks...

CentralTexas
September 23, 2008, 02:27 PM
My rational is this, when people carried the first Cell Phones people gawked. No one looks twice now.*

With us carrying concealed, it seems to the public that there are no gun owners and when they do see one they freak out.

The public will get used to it in a short time, realize lots of people have guns -and they seem normal and get on with life.



*please feel free to point out that people don't get killed by cell phones if you must. :rolleyes:

PTK
September 23, 2008, 02:27 PM
I'm about to get flamed, hard

You and me both, brother. ;)

With the right to CC comes the responsibility to keep things concealed. He didn't do that, he got hassled.
Isn't OC legal in Colorado?

Entirely.


It sure is an interesting dichotomy here on THR to have some fully ok with OC, and some quite against the right to carry a gun openly.

elChupacabra!
September 23, 2008, 02:40 PM
ZeSpectre -

I have no shame in admitting that the thought of such a situation scares me spineless which is why I work so hard NOW, within the system, to try and stave it off for as long as humanly possible.

That's the point I'm at now, and truly, I'm doing what I can to defend our liberties, as well. I am a contributing member of the NRA, I write my Senators and Representatives on a fairly regular basis, I take my coworkers shooting, discuss firearms in an honest, open and positive light with everyone I can - heck I even addressed a County Commission a few weeks ago to defend Concealed Carry into county owned buildings.

I currently don't OC (save to and from the range) due to the social stigma... maybe I should consider doing it more often.

Again, please don't misconstrue my previous post to hear that I'm afraid to fight. I'm not... I'm just troubled. I'm just expressing here the turmoil that I'm going through inside with (really) no outlet for it but here.

Thanks for listening friends.

JesseL
September 23, 2008, 02:44 PM
Tacbandit:

In Arizona, open carry is legal for anyone who can legally own a handgun. Places off limits are the same as for concealed carry (prisons, public schools, game refuges, power plants, polling places on election day, places that serve alcohol for on premises consumption, etc.) Car carry without a license requires the gun be in a belt holster, map pocket, glovebox, plain sight, or inaccessible (under the seat is a no no unless you have a CWP).

An openly carried weapon has to be "carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons".

State preemption is pretty thorough, with the only exception being that cities can prohibit unlicensed carry in parks and such.

I suggest looking over at opencarry.org's Arizona page (http://opencarry.org/az.html) and the Arizona Revised Statutes Title 13 Chapter 31 (http://www.azleg.gov/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=13)

ZeSpectre
September 23, 2008, 02:46 PM
*please feel free to point out that people don't get killed by cell phones if you must.

Cell phones as dangerous as drunk driving (http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-6090342-7.html)

Is having a cell phone pressed to your ear while behind the wheel the equivalent of driving while intoxicated? According to a study by University of Utah psychologists, the answer is, unfortunately, yes.

"Just like you put yourself and other people at risk when you drive drunk, you put yourself and others at risk when you use a cell phone and drive," writes David Strayer, a psychology professor and the study's lead author. "The level of impairment is very similar." .....

Just couldn't pass that one up, especially since I know a student that wrapped his car 'round a light pole while having a screaming phone argument with his parents.

AntiqueCollector
September 23, 2008, 02:47 PM
Ok, thanks for the advice, guys! AntiqueCollector, I have studied up on it a fair amount. I am of legal age to carry and own (I'm 20 and I live in PA). However, I'll have to unload and lock the ammo away in the glove compartment when driving if I start carrying before I can get my LTCF. That'll be kind of a pain since my future carry piece is a revolver, but I guess that's what speedloaders are for.

~Dale

Doesn't PA require all handgun sales go through an FFL? Well if you were legally given the gun by a parent I guess that's probably legal (double check). Don't carry in Philadelphia, a license to carry is required there no matter if it's open or not. Elsewhere in PA, open carry is legal without a license except for off limits places. Some areas' police departments will harass people, go to opencarry.org's forums to see details, but stand up for your rights...there's plenty of caselaw on the side of open carriers in PA.

Surat
September 23, 2008, 02:56 PM
most police would discourage you from carrying, period

Don't over generalize. This all depends on where you are at. I'm all for more law abiding citizens carrying/owning. Keeps me from having to work as hard and I can go write more trafic tickets :eek: so we can get more grant moneyfrom Feds & state.

Personally I have no issue with OC, but then OC and gun laws in general get a trifle odd in NC.

For example, you can open carry all day long. I personally am not gonna hassle someone unless their behavior registers as anomalous or suspicious. What constitutes that depends on the situation, time and location.

Wave the thing around and do it in such a maner as to scare the straights and it's considered "Armed to the Terror of the Public." By the way a baseball bat or samuri sword falls into this law as well. . .

Fire a BB gun or paint ball gun in the city limits where I work and it's a violation of city ordinance and gets you a ticket (BB guns at neighbors cats, paint balls at cars) or a trip to the magistrate (firing actual weapons in the city).

We also have city ordinances on panhandlers and charity groups collecting money at intersections, so don't feel bad.

I think a lot of this comes down to place and politics. We are strongly conservative down in this area (Republican Sheriff, town & city counsels etc.). Never lived or been there but I'm guessing PA is a trifle more “blue” in addition to being full of yankees. :neener:

Mr. D
September 23, 2008, 03:04 PM
That is correct, all handgun sales must go through an FFL. However, anyone can give an 18-20 year old a handgun. In fact, parents and grandparents can give handguns to children or grandchildren without incurring any paper work whatsoever. My Dad gave me both of my handguns.

~Dale

Tacbandit
September 23, 2008, 03:19 PM
Quote:

"I suggest looking over at opencarry.org's Arizona page and the Arizona Revised Statutes Title 13 Chapter 31"




Jesse L...Appreciate the info...:)
Thanks for the input, and the insight...

stevemis
September 23, 2008, 04:32 PM
The timing on this thread, at least for me, is perfect.

I came across a wholly fantastic thread "The Open Carry Argument (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=371028)" on THR a while back. OC came up last week and I showed my wife that thread. I think Mainsail's argument about Open Carry being an active deterrent and concealed carry being a passive solution struck home.

Last night, she approached me with an idea. Let me preface this by explaining how much I despise shopping for clothes. I really, really, really despise it. My wife had an offer... if I came with her to Kohl's to pick out some new threads (for me), she wouldn't give me a hard time if I wanted to OC there. She made it clear that we also needed to get some groceries on the way home as well, but her offer only applied to Kohl's.

So... we're in Kohl's (a regional department store) and I've got my Dan Wesson CBOB untucked in a Galco Yaqui. If anyone noticed my 1911, it certainly didn't bother them. My wife was paying extra attention to the sheeple customers and employees milling about and she didn't see any long stares or double-takes... certainly nobody ran the other direction screaming "OH MY GOD HE HAS A GUN!".

It was completely uneventful. I will say that OC is a whole lot more comfortable than CC ever was.

When we started up the car, it started acting funny. My wife was just at the dealer with the problem earlier in the week and they couldn't find anything wrong. Since the dealer's service department closes at 11pm, we decided to head over there and show them the problem first hand. My wife asked me to go back to concealed and I said "naah!". This dealership is huge.. there's waiting rooms all over the place, big screen TV's in some spots, a break room with coffee and soda. Service employees, sales employees, service customers and sales customers were all over. Nobody looked at me twice until the sales manager walked by while I was smoking outside. He said "Sir, that is a gorgeous .45". We talked about firearms and hunting for about 5 minutes and then he got a page and had to get back to work.

I guess at this point, my wife was pretty comfortable with my OC. We were all over WalMart .. again, no funny looks and no trouble of any sort.

I agree with others who say this is a right we will lose if we don't use it. The VCDL seems to also agree. They organize OC events like council meetings, picnics and restaurant get-togethers. Initially, this kind of organized en-mass and "in your face" OC bothered me.. until I realized that it works and figured out why they're doing it.

Remember, the antis have rallies and "die-ins" where they slather each other in ketchup and lie down to play dead. The media eats this cr@p up and they get lots of free publicity. The VCDL's response is to gather law-abiding, peaceful gun owners together to let them carry.. The VCDL even gets face time with reporters at these events. This is the polar opposite of the anti's technique and it appears to be working well. Virginia is a great place to carry openly for a reason.

I applaud the efforts of the VCDL and it's members. I wish we had a like-minded group here in North Carolina.

jahwarrior
September 23, 2008, 05:01 PM
stevemis said: Nobody looked at me twice until the sales manager walked by while I was smoking outside.

ack! smoking! in public! whatsamattawityou?!? don't you know that's offensive, and scares people? if you want to smoke in private, fine! we don't need to see it! it's people like you that are going to ruin it for all of us discreet smokers.....:neener:

MT GUNNY
September 23, 2008, 05:27 PM
Our #1 threat is people that don't know about Gun ownership. I cant think of a better way to spread the word than OC. It will show that we are law abiding citizens, and show that guns just don't Go off killing people.

Elza post#7 That is the right attitude!!

dmazur
September 23, 2008, 09:05 PM
I'm completely in favor of OC, CC, whatever is legal.

And, if you are an "OC person", be aware that it is remotely possible that you are a target by BG's who might want to either 1) take your weapon, or 2) neutralize you first, then continue with their robbery/whatever.

I'm not starting a OC/CC argument, just suggesting that situational awareness might be even more important if you choose to OC. In most situations, nothing is happening to "raise your hackles", so it's a good thing to do.

I've read quite a bit about OC/CC, and it seems to start violent arguments, but I'm not sure I've read a "just be a little more aware" caution...so I thought I'd toss one out there. :)

BTW, my pet peeve is the "you can carry, except _____ <location>". That location isn't any safer than anywhere else, so why should I give up my right to self defense there? Well, it's a federal building, so that's different. Well, it's private property, so that's different. This is off-topic, but it is what I'm trying to fight for, through legal channels.

I agree 100% that we need to be united. We don't need a "who needs EBR's" type problem derailing self defense rights.

Who knows. Maybe, years from now, guns will be commonplace and some of the more nonsensical anti-gun laws will have been repealed. Maybe OC is a path to that, as others have said, by increasing public awareness that "normal" people carry guns. CC protects you, but there is no positive publicity because the carry is, well, concealed.

I might have to try that out, in my "anomalous OC state".

jahwarrior
September 23, 2008, 10:37 PM
And, if you are an "OC person", be aware that it is remotely possible that you are a target by BG's who might want to either 1) take your weapon, or 2) neutralize you first, then continue with their robbery/whatever.

I'm not starting a OC/CC argument, just suggesting that situational awareness might be even more important if you choose to OC. In most situations, nothing is happening to "raise your hackles", so it's a good thing to do.

on this point, you are absolutely correct. SA should be practiced at all times, but for OC, it's critical.

jakemccoy
September 23, 2008, 10:49 PM
My biggest fear with open carry is being concealed for a moment and getting busted for carrying concealed without a license. I live in a county where CCW permits are basically impossible.

dmazur
September 23, 2008, 11:09 PM
As my OC has been confined to rural, National Forest type settings, it doesn't really count. During hunting season, nobody raises an eyebrow.

Regarding the concern for accidentally concealing a handgun, you can either go "cowboy" and carry it low on your thigh (and there are nylon versions of this for those that want to be "tacticool"), or go "hunter" and carry it in a shoulder/chest holster outside your jacket.

The danger of accidentally concealing, IMO, would be the typical OWB belt holster...

As I'm new to the concept of OC in more urban settings, I can imagine that the more obvious holster arrangements are also a lot more "in your face" with the presence of a gun. Something one might not want to do.

I'm going to have to research this. I haven't any idea how folks are OC'ing.

XD-GEM
September 23, 2008, 11:25 PM
I have been OCing on a fairly steady basis in the Greater New Orleans area since June. (My wife is not entirely comfortable with the idea, so I appreciate the shopping story ealier in this thread.) Prior to this June, I only kept my gun in my car or readily accesible at home. I have mostly had positive experiences when in public. Go to OpenCarry.org and search for my thread about what happened to me the day after Hurricane Gustave for the only negative encounter I've had (my screen name is the same over there).

This past weekend, I finally took a concealed carry class so that when I carry during the winter, my coat will not be an illegal concealment problem. Both OC and CC can be valuable means of having one's weapon at hand if needed. Knowing the risks inherent in both methods is every bit as important as knowing the safe handling rules.

We should all support each other as fellow gun owners, even if we disagree about our choice of carry. Ben Franklin once said, "If we do not hang together, then surely we will all hang separately." For all of us, how we "hang" it ought not to be a "hang-up," otherwise, our right to keep and bear arms may get permanently "hung up" in the closet of history.

Aguila Blanca
September 23, 2008, 11:48 PM
perhaps we could be a little more
sensitive to their perspective, to help our own cause. I.e.,........We have an
OC permit, and we're carrying...We're on our way to little Johnny/Judys' ball game...Is it so hard to pull out the shirt-tail, etc., for the duration of a kids
outdoor athletic event..?You're stilled armed...Is it so important that we have to say"Hey...look at me...I'm armed, because I have a permit, and I can be?"
I realize that most of us DON'T think that way, but does it really help our cause, as to the perspective of those non-carrying folks???
No, I respectfully submit that it does NOT help our cause. We have allowed society to regress to a point where the sight of an armed citizen is cause for alarm if not outright panic on the part of large segments of the population. You don't help overcome that by ensuring that those people never see an armed man. To the contrary, they need to be desensitized. They NEED to see neatly dressed, well-groomed men and women openly carrying firearms in order to dispel the perception that anyone who wears a GUN! must be an evil-doer.

crzbiker
September 24, 2008, 12:11 AM
I was under the impression that it was ok to carry in a national forest ,but not ok in a national park. In fact, there is now some bureaucratic nonsense regarding changing the law so that the carry is legal in both. The nonsense is that the time to get informed opinion has been changed twice. I guess they're hoping Obama will kill the idea and the bureacrats can be once again in charge of America.:barf:

RaisedByWolves
September 24, 2008, 12:56 AM
Aguila Blanka (SP)



I agree with your sentiments, but I feel it only does harm to shove this down peoples throats. A more societally acceptable way may be to hand out fliers at the local gas station/mall/red light and get people talking about this. Once its in peoples daily conversations/thoughts it would be easier for them to accept the sight of an armed civilian seeing as they now are aware of the right of them to do so.



I have had many people who shoot regular tell me this is illegal and I have directed them to the OC website, they (some of them) still dont agree its legal, but none of them knew about it prior to this. These people are lifelong PA residents and avid shooters.




"Isn't OC legal in Colorado?"





Could be, but in PA if you carry concealed, it must be concealed. Theres no quasi concealed allowed due to OC laws.

jahwarrior
September 24, 2008, 07:11 AM
in PA if you carry concealed, it must be concealed. Theres no quasi concealed allowed due to OC laws.

wrong. no one is required to carry concealed, no matter what anyone tells you. if you can't see it, it's concealed. if you can, then you're carrying openly. there's no such thing as "quasi" concealed. either it is or it isn't.

Harley Quinn
September 24, 2008, 11:33 AM
Here is a link that will give you information on the state of AZ...Some think good sense is not needed for open carry...It is a lot more complicated than some think. http://opencarry.org/az.html

If you don't have a good lock box in your vehicle and you are going somewhere you are not allowed to open carry, do you leave it at home or hide it CCW, (lock it in your trunk and many observe it) and if so, are you in violation, or do you have the license to carrry CCW, and if not, why not :what:

Some think stopping at a corner stop sign is not for them, how about carring concealed and breaking the law? :uhoh:

Many consider the laws that are made, are for others IMHO... Tombstone territory, 1800's comes to mind...

So if you are under the influence of alcohol and driving your vehicle intoxicated and are open carring what laws are broken? Drinking and carring open, is it a violation? Drinking and carring concealed, is it a violation?

Think about it as if you would be driving a car, only now add in anger, impaired judgement, and a few other things, and you have a gun on your hip... Now tell me it does not matter ;)

Regards

Gray Peterson
September 24, 2008, 11:49 AM
You know, what's funny is that it's always the concealed carry only crowd that bashes OC'ers and admonishes them for open carry. I've never seen it the other way around.

Harley Quinn
September 24, 2008, 11:57 AM
Lonny, ccw requires a permit where I am at, and if I have to go to school and l take classes, so should others who want to carry a weapon in public...

The saftey of the public deserve it IMHO...

Not bashing, asking questions that you did not answer :confused:

kcshooter
September 24, 2008, 12:05 PM
I've never seen it the other way around.I have. I've had it implied that I'm not doing my part for gun rights, that I'm part of the problem too because I refuse to openly carry. My response to this is: I don't carry to make a statement, I carry to protect my life and the lives of those I care for.

RaisedByWolves
September 24, 2008, 12:36 PM
"wrong. no one is required to carry concealed, no matter what anyone tells you. if you can't see it, it's concealed. if you can, then you're carrying openly. there's no such thing as "quasi" concealed. either it is or it isn't."





First, re read what I wrote till you understand it, then go read the states CC laws.



If you have the permit and are carrying concealed, it Must not be visible, period.

MJRW
September 24, 2008, 12:41 PM
If you have the permit and are carrying concealed, it Must not be visible, period.

What state are you suggesting the law be looked up for? The states with the most recent discussion about OC/CC have been CO and PA.

MagnumDweeb
September 24, 2008, 12:46 PM
I would love OC here in Florida, I signed the online petition, don't know if it did any good. Granted I want to keep my CCW right, because I think we all deserve a choice. It'd be nice if we could just get a "Dangerous Weapons Permit" that allows by permit both and either/or open or concealed carry.

I normally carry a Taurus snub nose .357 in my cell phone pocket and a Rossi .357 in my wallet pocket, I can carry my P90 Ruger but it's a hassle even with heavy denim shirts.

I like the idea of OC because I'm convinced it's a constitutional right and to not have it is an infringement of that right (2nd Amendment). Plus it would make carrying more comfortable and allow me to carry my Ruger Redhawk 4" .44 Magnum, granted loaded with .44 specials for carry SD purposes.

If I ever buy a 1911 I'd carry that instead of my .44 magnum, I enjoy my Ruger and was glad to get it from my Uncle but the ambi slide safety just leaves me feeling odd about it and carring with the safety off doesn't sit right with me for some reason, a grip safety like that on a 1911(unlocked safety) , or a trigger safety on a Glock or XD would be acceptable granted I only like Semi SDs in 10mm or .45 ACP.

I'm a little too busy with lawschool right now but once I'm a member of the bar and a working professional I am going to return to my pursuit of bringing OC to Florida, might take ten years but better ten years than never.

jahwarrior
September 24, 2008, 01:03 PM
First, re read what I wrote till you understand it, then go read the states CC laws. If you have the permit and are carrying concealed, it Must not be visible, period.

um, wrong.

§ 6109. Licenses.
(a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

(b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.

(c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be set forth in the application: self-defense, employment, hunting and fishing, target shooting, gun collecting or another proper reason. The application form shall be dated and signed by the applicant and shall contain the following statement:

I have never been convicted of a crime of violence in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania or elsewhere. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that, if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application.

(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall investigate the applicant's record of criminal convictions, shall investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year, shall investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and shall investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) and shall conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency or mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to firearm ownership).

(e) Issuance of license.--

(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:



(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.)
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.

(3) The license shall bear the name, address, date of birth, race, sex, citizenship, Social Security number, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes and signature of the licensee; the signature of the sheriff issuing the license; the reason for issuance; and the period of validation. The sheriff may also require a photograph of the licensee on the license. The original license shall be issued to the applicant. The first copy of the license shall be forwarded to the commissioner within seven days of the date of issue, and a second copy shall be retained by the issuing authority for a period of six years.

(f) Term of license.--


A license to carry a firearm issued under subsection (e) shall be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years unless sooner revoked.
At least 60 days prior to the expiration of each license, the issuing sheriff shall send to the licensee an application for renewal of license. Failure to receive a renewal application shall not relieve a licensee from the responsibility to renew the license.

(g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.

(h) Fee.--The fee for a license to carry a firearm is $19. This includes a renewal notice processing fee of $1.50. This includes an administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the act of July 6, 1984 (P.L.614, No.127), known as the Sheriff Fee Act. No fee other than that provided by this paragraph or the Sheriff Fee Act may be assessed by the sheriff for the performance of any background check made pursuant to this act. The fee is payable to the sheriff to whom the application is submitted and is payable at the time of application for the license. Except for the administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the Sheriff Fee Act, all other fees shall be refunded if the application is denied but shall not be refunded if a license is issued and subsequently revoked. A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.

(i) Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail, and, at that time, a copy shall be forwarded to the commissioner. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.

(j) Immunity.--A sheriff who complies in good faith with this section shall be immune from liability resulting or arising from the action or misconduct with a firearm committed by any individual to whom a license to carry a firearm has been issued.

(k) Reciprocity.--The Attorney General may enter into reciprocity agreements with other states providing for the mutual recognition of each state's license to carry a firearm.

now, read what i posted, and find me the statute where it says you must conceal. i'll wait.
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find it yet? i thought not. i found myself in a debate this morning with two sheriff's deputies in Dunmore, PA, about this very subject. they also insisted it was illegal to OC if a had an LTCF, as if having one compelled me to conceal.

"officer, it it really was illegal, you'd have arrested me by now."

end of story. once again, it's either concealed, or it isn't. a license is required for one, and not the other, except for in Philadelphia, where it's required either way. like the song says: "...ain't no half-steppin..."

K3
September 24, 2008, 01:12 PM
Lonny, ccw requires a permit where I am at, and if I have to go to school and l take classes because I live an an area that generally has no respect for liberty and RKBA and most folks here have been trained in this way of thinking, so should others who want to carry a weapon in public...

Modified a tad.

Given the real purpose behind RKBA, wouldn't you say it's kind of odd to require people get licensed by the very entity that RKBA is meant to keep honest and in check? Seems to defeat the purpose.


The saftey of the public deserve it IMHO...

IMNSHO, this is irrelevant with regard to liberty and RKBA. The safety of the public isn't helped when real criminals break dang near every gun law on the books (exaggerating, but you get the point) and do harm to their own kind as well as regular joes.

This training and licensing would have what kind of effect? If I'm not mistaken, Alaska, Vermont, and Arizona don't have an inordinate amount of violence compared to DC, Chicago, New York, etc.

Harley Quinn
September 24, 2008, 01:45 PM
It is an interesting discussion...To bad middle ground is always hard to find.

What I see most of the time by those who are against freedoms and regulation is something similar to this:

***An autarky is an economy that is self-sufficient and does not take part in international trade, or severely limits trade with the outside world. Likewise it refers to an ecosystem not affected by influences from the outside, which relies entirely on its own resources. In the economic meaning, it is also referred to as a closed economy.***

So if we have a state that is totally right-wing and another very far to the left, one is conservative and the other is liberal, which would you rather live in?

Funny state of affairs as they are now, Thomas Jefferson was a liberal:confused: Hmmm. Bush (number 1) stopped importing such things as AK's and Daewoo's, but we export weapons to anyone willing to buy, who have governments that are not the best to live under, you know laws and the people ;)

Truly an interesting situation, that will never be understood IMHO

This is interesting, check out the 25 most dangerous cities :

http://phoenix.about.com/od/crime/a/dangerous.htm

Here is another opinion on states and liveability:

http://phoenix.about.com/cs/living/a/livable2004.htm

;)

moga
September 24, 2008, 02:17 PM
More and more people are starting to OC, so many that I predict congress will pass a national ban on the practice. Just a hunch.

Every time I hear someone express their disapproval for OC this way I can't help but to wonder if it is what they secretly want.

Georgia is an OC state, so you'd think there would be unity on this topic at our state forum, right? Nothing could be further from the truth. Needless to say I hear this sentiment expressed far too often, sadly.

Aguila Blanca
September 24, 2008, 09:09 PM
Could be, but in PA if you carry concealed, it must be concealed. Theres no quasi concealed allowed due to OC laws.
You have it reversed, Sir. Except in Philadelphia, PA is an open carry state and no license or permit is required to open carry. Which means there is no requirement to conceal. The requirement is that you need a permit IF you wish to carry concealed. However, if your concealment is less than 100 percent effective, since open carry is legal everywhere except Philly w/o a license (and I believe legal in Philly with a license but I wouldn't test it), if the breeze lifts your jacket or your gun butt "prints" ... no harm, no foul.

RBW, three people have said that your interpretation of the PA law is incorrect. Rather than tell the whole world to "read the statute," I respectfully submit that it is your responsibility to cite the statute you believe requires 100 percent concealmant.

jahwarrior
September 24, 2008, 09:29 PM
I believe legal in Philly with a license but I wouldn't test it

you need to have a LTCF to carry in Philly, open or concealed. however, most Philly PD have made it public knowledge that they will stop and detain anyone they see OCing, and find a way to revoke their LTCF.

Treo
September 24, 2008, 10:27 PM
You know, what's funny is that it's always the concealed carry only crowd that bashes OC'ers and admonishes them for open carry. I've never seen it the other way around.

That's not been my experience, I've seen it both ways and I've seen a lot of O.C.ers act like they're more RKBA than thou.

mike7465
September 25, 2008, 12:07 PM
Treo,
Glad to have you on board with OC.
The crowd here hates the idea, but you are right. We need to be ever vigilant and gain ground so that our RTKBA is always here.
Good Job!
Mike7465
OCs when ever he needs to, and darn proud of it.

Bob R
September 25, 2008, 02:30 PM
And, if you are an "OC person", be aware that it is remotely possible that you are a target by BG's who might want to either 1) take your weapon, or 2) neutralize you first, then continue with their robbery/whatever.

And, if you are an OC person, be aware that it is remotely possible that as soon as the BG's see your weapon, they will move onto a place where the threat of an armed defender doesn't exist.

We really don't know if either of the above scenerios have ever played out.

Here is an article by Tom Gresham on Open Carry.

http://www.guntalk.com/site.php?pageID=15&newsID=50

bob

Yes, another one who much prefers OC to CC.

dasmi
September 25, 2008, 02:42 PM
Welcome to the OC club :)

NonConformist
September 25, 2008, 02:43 PM
Im amazed how many support having to get License/Permits and pay to excercise a right!!! :what:

We already have the right to BEAR arms per the 2A, permits requirements are a slap in the face of our FFs sacrifices.

TEDDY
September 25, 2008, 08:52 PM
that seems to be a problem with gun owners.NOT in step.SC is a permit state to carry CONCEALED.HOWEVER if you put the gun in the glove compartment you dont need a permit.(seems crazy).some states Mass for one issues a permit to carry.not a CCW.must keep it in your control at all times.[not how]
remember the antis are looking for any thing to divide us.and the mer carrying
open can educate the public that they have been conned by police and media.once they see that it is legal they will not be bothered by it.and you MUST educate the patrolman what the law is.:uhoh::rolleyes:

moooose102
September 26, 2008, 08:26 AM
in the above map, it is shown that south caroilina is not an open carry state. i wonder when that changed. a long time ago i helped a freind move from there (coluimbia s.c.) back to michigan. at that time, it was legal to open carry. in an automobile, all you had to do was put it in the dash so it was in plain sight. if the map is true, looks like at some time, we lost ground there.

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