School shooting in Finland


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Shung
September 23, 2008, 07:30 AM
I am affraid that for the 2n time in one year, this will affect the finish laws about firearms... Which are with Switzerland laws, the better in europe at the moment..

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ErikS
September 23, 2008, 07:46 AM
There are videos on YouTube of a 22year old in the same town (Kauhajoki) shooting a Walther P22 target at a range. The commenters there have identified him as the shooter. You find it by searching 'Kauhajoki gun' on YouTube

As for the Finnish gun laws, I googled them, and they seem to be about the same as in the rest of Scandinavia? Doesn't seem at all as Switzerlands laws, but I might have read it wrong.
The reason so many people in Finland have guns is because so many of them hunt, and own hunting rifles.

UPDATE:
The videos have now been removed from YouTube. Basically all they showed was a guy walking up in front of a camera and shooting his pistol, nothing more than that, no "gangsta style" or crazy talk. I did take a screen cap of his profile, as well as a screen cap of what was claimed to be his gf/cameraman, who seems to have a fettish for serial killers.

UPDATE 2:
Just found another video that wasn't in the guys profile when I first looked. This shows the guy looking down into the camera and saying "you will die next!" before he starts firing towards/under the camera. YouTube is removing them as they are uploaded by users, but I saved a screenshot.

Shung
September 23, 2008, 08:02 AM
you re right.. finland laws seems to be tighter than what I ever thought..

The Viking
September 23, 2008, 08:16 AM
They are still good compared to here. In Finland, "Hobby shooting" (I take this to mean "plinking") is a valid reason to get a license. Not so here. Also, no silly restrictions on how a bloody hunting rifle/shotgun can look like. If you want to buy an FAL to hunt with, or a Saiga 12, that's just fine. Fairly good laws compared to many other places in Europe as well, like the UK for example.

bukijin
September 23, 2008, 09:08 AM
I just read that Finland has the world's 3rd highest rate of gun ownership which was interesting.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/nine-killed-in-finnish-school-massacre/2008/09/23/1221935634586.html

Of course we all know here that righteous use of firearms is neccessary to combat criminal use of firearms. Lets pray for those killed and their friends and families.

iowajones
September 23, 2008, 09:29 AM
What is it with school shooters and Walther P22's? Isn't that (in part) what the VaTech a-hole used?

JohnBT
September 23, 2008, 10:31 AM
From Yahoo...

"34 minutes ago

Finland's interior minister says a man who killed nine people in a school shooting was questioned by police a day before the massacre but released.

Anne Holmlund says the gunman was detained for questioning on Monday about YouTube postings in which he is seen firing a handgun. She says police released him because they had no legal reason to keep him detained.

She says the man used a 22-millimeter caliber handgun in Tuesday's attack in Kauhajoki, 180 miles (300 kilometers) northwest of Helsinki. Holmlund says he got the license for the gun in August."


22 millimeters equals .86+ inches. Call it .87. :)

Shung
September 23, 2008, 10:31 AM
that is a big gun..

Loosedhorse
September 23, 2008, 10:35 AM
22 mm handgun--WOW! (Perhaps .22 LR...)

My condolences to the victims, their families, to Finlanders, and to all gun owners.

It seems that when someone drives drunk and kills someone, it doesn't "spash-over" and get read as a mark against all car owners. But we know that (either by itself or driven by media with an agenda) this latest school shooting affects us all, and will be mentioned someday even in the US Congress.

Prayers.

ErikS
September 23, 2008, 10:42 AM
Most likely the Walther P22 Target (.22 LR) he had on the YouTube videos...

Halo
September 23, 2008, 10:43 AM
Pretty soon this incident will be blamed on "the spread of America's diseased culture".

Colt46
September 23, 2008, 11:22 AM
One of the national symbols of finland is their Puukko.
Most populated areas forbid them to be carried on the belt unless you can prove some kind of neccessity for your work. Despite the fact that Puukko is nothing more than a knife used for utility purposes.
Can't speak as to how their gun laws are set up.

ridata
September 23, 2008, 02:44 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/23/finland.school.shooting.causes
The suspect in the fatal shooting at a vocational school in Kauhajoki, Finland is pictured in this frame grab made from footage posted on the YouTube website. Photograph: Reuters

As Finland reacted in horror to the shooting by a student at a vocational college in Kauhajoki, now known to have claimed eleven lives, teachers and officials were asking what more could have been done, despite a flurry of initiatives following a shooting less than a year before at Jokela High School which killed eight.

Officials had described Finland's first major school shooting at Jokela high school last November as an isolated incident.

Nonetheless, the government reacted swiftly, putting special student welfare teams into schools and colleges, including at Kauhajoki's college for home and institutional economics - the location of the latest shooting.

"We already had the experience (of Jokela) and this time the help was available immediately," said Anita Lehikoinen, director of higher education at the Finnish ministry of education. "There were major efforts made to support schools and the school community and to help young people to feel safe in schools. We also sent a letter to all the rectors of polytechnics and colleges to update their safety regulations and to pay special attention to student welfare."

She insisted the college where the shooting took place was not to blame.

"The institution had taken all the action. They had a multi-professional team of psychologists, social workers in the community, and also a pastor. But still we saw this kind of tragedy take place," Lehikoinen said.

The government today announced extra financial help for the region, to help train youth workers, community workers and even parish priests to reach out to young people.

Although Matti Saari, 22, a student at the college, was a young adult, Lehikoinen said even in higher education there was a close relationship between students and staff, "particularly at this institution, which is a very small one".

"There is always the question of whether there enough [welfare] services are available. But at this institution we think this was not a problem.

"With multi-professional teams in place we think the help could have been there," Lehikoinen said.

However, as a vocational student, about a third of Saari's time was spent in the workplace. A recent European Union study said workplace bullying was more common in Finland than in any other EU country with Finns twice as likely to report harassment than workers in other European countries.

Bullying was also an issue in the case of Pekka-Eric Auvinen, who carried out the Jokela shooting.

Meanwhile interior minister Anne Holmlund said the perpetrator was questioned by police the day before the shooting, regarding videos posted in recent weeks on YouTube showing him firing a pistol, but no further steps were thought to be necessary.

Holmlund said she would step up efforts to draft amendments in the country's firearms law. "It goes without saying that one must analyse carefully what has happened and what sorts of changes may serve to prevent these kinds of situations from happening," Holmlund said.

Teachers and officials were searching for clues of a systemic problem in society as education minister Sari Sarkomaa, interior minister Holmlund, and minister of health and social services Paula Risikko met in emergency session to discuss the Kauhajoki shooting.

Lehikoinen said the government would be looking at wider issues in society such as greater individualism, and would look to fostering a spirit of community in schools and colleges.

"There is now a major emphasis in community-building in schools," she said.

After the Jokela incident, cuts in funding for psychological services and social support in recent years were criticised. The shooting had been a wake-up call, and local level collaboration between support services had already increased since then, teachers in Finland said.

"Jokela made teachers more sensitive to student problems. In a very general way it made teachers more alert," said Jarkko Hautamäki, professor of special education at the University of Helsinki.

At first glance, the two incidents do not seem similar. "The present shooter is a young adult, and so we cannot say the teachers are responsible," Hautamäki said.

"These are random encounters that cannot be prevented by any specific policy. They are difficult to anticipate and to be able to monitor in any way."

But media reports have stressed the rising use of the internet among young people and its pernicious influence. Jorma Lempinen, of the Finnish Association of School Principals, said: "There is a great deal of discussion. Parents say our children are not out on the streets, they are not doing drugs or alcohol, they are at home and we believed they were secure. It is now the opposite, and young people are now unsafe even at home because of the internet?"

Few answers were immediately evident as Finland was digesting the enormity of the latest shooting.

"Both the incident in Jokela and the present incident are very surprising to us. It is very difficult to understand why young people should feel so miserable as to do such desperate acts," Hautamäki said.

"We have precise and very good plans of what to do in an emergency since the Jokela incident. But these only tackle what is happening afterwards. Teachers are discussing and wondering how do we tackle the problems before they occur," Lempinen said.

They've come to the conclusion that all school shootings can't be prevented by psychological means. :rolleyes:

Medusa
September 23, 2008, 06:07 PM
Ten people died, not including the coward who decided not to take the responsibility after all, as he kicked the bucket too. And now their prime minister wants to review the issue of having handguns in civilian hands. :barf: it starts to look very much like a long-term anti-gun campaign.

Anyway, the killer also used Molotov cocktails, so by the newspaper some of the bodies are hard to identify as they are burned too extensively (not sure whether he lit up living people or corpses). Why not ban glass bottles and gasoline?

Where are the car buying licenses? :rolleyes:

It is interesting, though, that within a relatively short time span two Finns have flipped the lid, as they are very phlegmatic people (no offense :) )

Halo
September 23, 2008, 06:33 PM
A few years ago a student in Japan killed several people with a knife. It can happen with any implement and in any society, there is no way legislation can prevent it.

Medusa
September 23, 2008, 06:42 PM
Continuing the thought from Halo: yeah, when there's a will then there's a way.

Criminals will do whatever the laws forbid them doing and I'm pretty sure that they don't care a bit. Banning guns won't make the streets safe, so why not go an extra mile and ban living at all?

Crunker1337
September 23, 2008, 06:45 PM
Violence is a universal problem.
Guns are not.

elrod
September 23, 2008, 07:07 PM
There will always be an idiot who will come unhinged for some unknown reason, and commit an atrocity upon some population (be they students, postal workers, etc.) with the weapon that is available. If there are no guns, then a knife. No knife, then a bomb, and so forth. The only way to prohibit these crimes is to isolate each person from all contact with others, and as the human race is social in nature, this is ludicrous. If anyone (and I know I'm preaching to the choir) can present data to reinforce the notion that banning any type of weapon can make us safer, then please present them!

ErikS
September 23, 2008, 07:13 PM
One thing to remember is that this guy was 22 years old, and no criminal record. He joined a gun club, practised and trained there, waited and got his license for a .22, and bought the gun legally, to have for plinking and competing.

The people that might argue that the Finnish gunlaws are too lax should know that even the Swedish gunlaws, that are really strict, would not have stopped this guy from getting the gun the exact same way.

And even if the had, he could just as easy, and just a legal, have gotten a hunters licens and bought a shotgun or a rifle instead.

And if he couldn't have gotten a gun, he could have done what another Finn did a few years ago, build a bomb and use it to blow up people in a mall.

Fburgtx
September 23, 2008, 09:22 PM
Once again, the media "reinforces" this kind of behavior by giving out this guy's name, talking about his opinions, and showing his pictures/videos. The media needs to STOP doing this!! All it does is assure the next wacko who is thinking about doing this that he, too, will be famous (although in death and only for a very short time).

The media should make it a point to not show photos of these types of criminals and not mention their name. Talk about the incident?? Sure. But don't publicize these guys and give them the "immortality" (fame) they were hoping for.

jakemccoy
September 23, 2008, 09:26 PM
I am affraid that for the 2n time in one year, this will affect the finish laws about firearms... Which are with Switzerland laws, the better in europe at the moment..

Please explain, or at least write so I can understand the sentences, thanks.

Hoppy590
September 23, 2008, 09:29 PM
Please explain, or write so I can understand the sentences, thanks.

hes saying that this event will impact Finnish gun laws, which are at the time rather pro gun like Switzerland

razorback2003
September 23, 2008, 10:30 PM
I read that it took police ten minutes to get to the school, of course that is 9 minutes and 58 seconds too late. I am assuming it is impossible or near impossible for someone to legally carry a handgun in Finland, like most of Europe.

I don't think it's easy to own a gun when I have to pay a chunk of change to join a gun club and prove my worthiness to the police. Seems like Finland has fairly strict gun laws, which are what all the bed wetters here in the USA want. Obvious that even those strict laws did not stop this guy, they only kept people from defending themselves. I'm sure it is also illegal to make homemade bombs in Finland, I guess the nut forgot about that law.

Halo
September 23, 2008, 10:46 PM
And that's just the thing, focusing on the implement rather than actor will only guarantee that law-abiding people pay the price and the criminals continue to be, well, criminals. As we all know, the motivation of a deranged person is not restrained by law nor a lack of one particular tool. Strapping two glass bottles together, one with chlorine bleach and the other with ammonia would yield a crude gas bomb. Just wait till some nut uses something like that, then you'll have to show ID every time you clean your laundry.

I think what I hate most, other than the fact that a nutjob wasn't satisfied with taking only his own life, is how the media reliably whip the public into a frenzy demanding that the government "do something!" Has any abridgment of liberty in history not been preceded by such?

NCsmitty
September 23, 2008, 11:09 PM
Finland's prime minister has called for gun laws to be tightened after a school shooting that left 11 people dead.

Matti Vanhanen said he believed handguns should no longer be used outside shooting ranges.

Of course the BBC has jumped all over this. They mention the legal age to purchase a firearm in Finland is 15.
Yemen is listed #2 in gun ownership behind the US.

NCsmitty

dmazur
September 23, 2008, 11:42 PM
The politicians just don't have the integrity to speak the truth - senseless violence is tragic, and cannot be prevented. They seek public approval, and "tightening gun laws" seems to get them that, even though it is a flat-out lie.

As mentioned, the media is the other culprit. In a "Dirty Harry" movie, Inspector Callahan directed the cameras be turned off and told the would-be-suicide that he wasn't going to be on the 10 o'clock news. That was fantasy, as so much of his character's behavior was fantasy. In real-life, nobody steps forward to muzzle the media's inappropriate behavior.

What is unfortunate is that some basic ethics and intelligence test isn't required for either of these positions - public official or news director.

Green Lantern
September 23, 2008, 11:59 PM
The version I read also mentioned trampling internet privacy, as well as gun control...!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7632661.stm

Mr Vanhanen said authorities would also look at whether there needed to be changes in internet monitoring.

Matti Vanhanen
Matti Vanhanen vowed to look at gun and internet laws

He said: "The internet and YouTube forums... are not another planet. This is part of our world and we adults have the responsibility to check what is happening, and create borders and safety there."

:(

Y'know, I'm addicted to the Finnish metal band Nightwish...and liked them more after hearing 'The Kinslayer.' It's a song about Columbine, with NO anti-gun message whatsoever. It actually focused on how screwed up the KILLERS were..and how they could have been driven to that point: "Time to die, poor mates, You made me what I am!"

And they didn't actually WRITE "Over The Hills And Far Away," but I love the moral of the song. In a nutshell, "If you live in a country with gun registration...for pete's sake, DO NOT leave it laying around where your best friend can get ahold of it and use it to frame you for a crime....while you're sleeping with his wife!!! :what:

Medusa
September 24, 2008, 06:41 AM
Just a thought for the anti-gunners: 8 of 10 victims were women (police thinks so), gunned down and torched. As said, some are too much burnt to be easily identifiable (even the gender). It's still a bad idea to allow carrying in campuses, in case some fellow in your country looses it and tries harder?

Calibre44
September 24, 2008, 10:01 AM
Interesting article - here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/24/finland)

JackW
September 24, 2008, 10:30 AM
I read that it took police ten minutes to get to the school, of course that is 9 minutes and 58 seconds too late. I am assuming it is impossible or near impossible for someone to legally carry a handgun in Finland, like most of Europe.

No it's more like 10 minutes and 1 second too late. I read an article that said while gun violence is rare, violent attacks are not. (I'll look for it and post a link). There are many cases of stabbings and beatings in Finland.

miko
September 24, 2008, 06:19 PM
Are there any details on the shooting? How the heck did he achieve such lethality with a .22? Did the victims cooperate, like many in VT massacre - by sitting still and waiting for him to approach and deliver an aimed point-blank shot?

miko

Cosmoline
September 24, 2008, 06:27 PM
I heard about this on the world service last night. The BEEB reporters were practically warmed their hands in the afterglow. They are pushing hard for a total ban as the only sensible response.

Patrick Henry
September 24, 2008, 08:46 PM
Are there any details on the shooting? How the heck did he achieve such lethality with a .22?

May I respectfully suggest that a .22 is a deadly weapon? Despite the deluge of BS to the contrary. I can't wait to read the excuses they come up with on the 1911 forum...:rolleyes:

But I also have not seen any report yet of the number of wounded, only killed. He could have wounded far more than he killed with it.

By the way, I quite agree that it's a tragedy, and also fully agree that it's blown out of proportion. The comparison to drunk driving is fully apt -- if I'm not mistaken Finland has one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. When are they going to ban vodka?

Although I do find it interesting that when the 1st "massacre" happened a year ago, according to the reports, the Finnish attitude was essentially "well, sometimes sh*t happens." :) There were no gun law changes.

Of course the BBC has jumped all over this.

Yeah...if you'll pardon the expression, screw Britain. British media love criticizing the United States, and always have. Apart from ancient history, America has almost nothing in common with Britain. The idea that we are "natural allies" is complete BS. I think Washington & Co. had it right 200 years ago when they freed us from those inbred old bags and their parliamentary tyranny.

Sorry for the diatribe. :o

Yemen is listed #2 in gun ownership behind the US.

Yemen rocks. :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI_AGXb1-Ec

They may be dirt poor, but they're more free than Americans today.

igor
September 24, 2008, 08:49 PM
Erik, this is false: He joined a gun club, practised and trained there, waited and got his license for a .22, and bought the gun legally, to have for plinking and competing.

The murderer never joined a club and all proof of any training are the plinking videos he uploaded. Joining a club is not a prerequisite for gun ownership in Finland - just about the only constitutionally protected part of the process. Saari got his .22 licence with minimal hassle, an application and a short interview took care of it, as is the current practice.

Saari was kicked out of the army once, due to return to see if he'll finish his service November this year. That's the only tangible earlier proof of any problems he had that is known at this point.

JackW, the Finnish violence stats as such are quite bad. The reality though is that the overwhelming bulk of stabbings, beatings etc. happens within the heavy drinking subculture and doesn't really affect the average citizen's life at all. There is precious little armed violence, robberies or such. The burglary rate is low and home invasions are just about nonexistent - thanks to the prevalence of firearms in homes, so far. Carrying is categorically not allowed, only transport in a legit purpose - going to the range or hunting, and getting back.

The Finnish gun laws have been quite good. Owning and using anything has been in principal possible until recently. There is a clearly observable campaign to tighten the practices ongoing, though. New collector permits have gotten even more rare (full auto available for very select collectors only) and several jurisdictions have taken a bullying practice in handling licencing even for long-time, serious sportsmen.

This repeat event is major bad for the future. The media are hysterical and so is the public opinion. All kinds of really-out-there suggestions have been voiced, such as organizing some kind of central warehousing of privately owned firearms. That is an obvious no-go; or would amount to a de facto ban if pursued.

There is a tad of hope in the initial statements on the gun laws though - the Interior Minister Holmlund did clearly state that a categorical ban of handguns wouldn't be practically possible. It is very likely that the entry threshold to owning firearms will be heightened considerably. The laws were under revision in any case due to a final harmonizing round with the EU directives.

Oh, and the #3 ranking in gun ownership is baloney too. The Swiss "researchers" extrapolated as to the Finnish as they failed to do as to Yemen... in reality, there are about 27 guns per 100 citizens in Finland and approx. 12% of the people are the actual owners. The register is pretty well up-to-date which the Swiss summarily ignored. In Yemen OTOH there are more than one gun per inhabitant as per _their_ own authorities, so there goes...

ErikS
September 24, 2008, 09:08 PM
Igor,
you're right, my mistake.

The Finnish gunlaw (http://www.finlex.fi/sv/laki/ajantasa/1998/19980001), 5kap 45$ only says the person has to be over 18 and give reliable statement of his hobby.

igor
September 24, 2008, 09:13 PM
Yep. There is an additional set of guidelines that was introduced after the previous incident, albeit only coincidentally - it was already prepared and going to be introduced anyway. As per those, an interview by police should now be mandatory for first-timers.

Patrick H., the murderer killed ten and wounded only one - she was shot in the head but seems to be surviving. In the tight quarters of a class room, against unarmed victims, a .22 is indeed nothing short of lethal. All the victims but two were female, too.

The Scandinavian
September 24, 2008, 11:00 PM
Here's an interesting list:

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

I wonder if such a link might have existed in this case?

When a similar incident happened here in Finland back in November :mad: the perp. was reported to be taking this type of medication.

Gunnerpalace
September 25, 2008, 12:49 PM
She says police released him because they had no legal reason to keep him detained.

On Google news this has now become the big issue with gun control fading out,

Looks like the same circumstances VTech had.

JImbothefiveth
September 25, 2008, 04:02 PM
I think this could have easily been stopped if CCW were allowed.

And I think the media shouldn't show this at all, ot at least shouldn't mention his name.
Might prevent this from happening again.
My prayers go out to the victims.

Mr. James
September 25, 2008, 04:22 PM
"The present shooter is a young adult, and so we cannot say the teachers are responsible," Hautamäki said.

No, you twit, you cannot say the teachers are responsible. Nor are the police, the local parish church, the Interior Ministry, the Education Ministry, or Carl Walther GmbH. There is only one person responsible, the "young adult," Matti Saari, and he chose a coward's end.

igor
September 25, 2008, 04:38 PM
The discussion on gun laws in Finland is frenetic. There are local council elections coming up, and all the parties are out for brownie points.

I just witnessed a truly weird situation in a very big talk show, where a local police chief was urging colleagues of his to break the law by imposing a moratorium on all handgun permits pending new instructions from the home office - with the minister of interior, his ultimate superior, on the other side of the table defending prudence and enhanced calm on any knee jerk reactions to legislation.

This is pure unadulterated panic. They're fixing everything in sight which isn't broken and ignoring the complication which isn't readily comprehensible, let alone actionable. The implications will be bad.

A true panic reaction was recent news where the Shooters' nat'l federation president and the Finnish IPSC RD went public pronouncing that .22 plinkers could be banned in their opinion. Oh boy, will those guys ever be sorry.

I hear they do kind of Practical shooting with airsoft in Taiwan or wherever...

igor
September 25, 2008, 04:40 PM
.....

Catherine
September 25, 2008, 06:43 PM
Quote from Patrick Henry:

Quote:
Originally Posted by miko
Are there any details on the shooting? How the heck did he achieve such lethality with a .22?

May I respectfully suggest that a .22 is a deadly weapon? Despite the deluge of BS to the contrary. I can't wait to read the excuses they come up with on the 1911 forum...

But I also have not seen any report yet of the number of wounded, only killed. He could have wounded far more than he killed with it.

By the way, I quite agree that it's a tragedy, and also fully agree that it's blown out of proportion. The comparison to drunk driving is fully apt -- if I'm not mistaken Finland has one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. When are they going to ban vodka?

Although I do find it interesting that when the 1st "massacre" happened a year ago, according to the reports, the Finnish attitude was essentially "well, sometimes sh*t happens." There were no gun law changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCsmitty
Of course the BBC has jumped all over this.
Yeah...if you'll pardon the expression, screw Britain. British media love criticizing the United States, and always have. Apart from ancient history, America has almost nothing in common with Britain. The idea that we are "natural allies" is complete BS. I think Washington & Co. had it right 200 years ago when they freed us from those inbred old bags and their parliamentary tyranny.

Sorry for the diatribe.

Quote:
Yemen is listed #2 in gun ownership behind the US.
Yemen rocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI_AGXb1-Ec

They may be dirt poor, but they're more free than Americans today.
__________________
One man with courage makes a majority -- Andrew Jackson

~~~~~


Patrick Henry,

BINGO! Thank you sir!

I am sorry to hear about the loss of life. My condolences to all concerned.

PEOPLE KILL and they kill using ANY object or tool including vehicles.

Catherine

LAR-15
September 25, 2008, 09:46 PM
A true panic reaction was recent news where the Shooters' nat'l federation president and the Finnish IPSC RD went public pronouncing that .22 plinkers could be banned in their opinion. Oh boy, will those guys ever be sorry.

Your kidding right??

Gun owners should never cave or panic

hillosipuli
September 26, 2008, 07:35 AM
Nope, this is true. Only phrase that comes to my mind concernig this is "breaking under pressure". With these banning statements however, I fear that the pressure has not yet peaked. Not even close.

As Igor said, will those guys ever be sorry :(

A very annoying thing is the way of thinking that cheap .22lr pistols should be banned, but expensive competition guns should remain intact.
This is sad. Very sad. Somehow this brings to my mind the echoes we are hearing from England, somethin like "Only the cheap samurai-swords should be banned, the expensive ones are no threat to anyone"...

"Welcome to shooting sports, but only if you can afford it"?!

Shung
September 26, 2008, 08:08 AM
NO DEMOCRACY should ever vote and change laws or rules under the pressure of emotions.

It would be like voting for allowing or not the construction of minarets in Switzerland, september 12, 2001.

Luomu
September 26, 2008, 08:14 AM
I think this could have easily been stopped if CCW were allowed.

No argument there. That is, however, not politically feasible here.

Shung
September 26, 2008, 08:31 AM
not politally correct in Switzerland neither.. Peope think that banning firearms will make them disapear.. When you know that in Switzerland there are more guns than people, you wonder what drugs the antis are taking..

carrying was legal in Switzerland before 1999.. they decided to forbid it.. nobody knows why, and nobody has seen a drop i already rare gun violence yet..

igor
September 27, 2008, 09:31 AM
LAR-15, I dearly wish I had been kidding.

There are some glimpses of hope though. The Interior minister has at least stated clearly that a sweeping ban wouldn't make sense.

They will be increasing the hoops to jump for first time permit applicants considerably, which I don't consider a bad thing either... before flaming me for that, do bear in mind that Finland already has just about fully covering registration of both gun owners and each individual firearm.

LAR-15
September 27, 2008, 12:08 PM
Well if they are talking about banning .22s such as the Browning Buck Mark, then that does scare me.

Those are solid guns for target and plinking (assuming hunting and trapping with handguns is verboten in Finland)

Slippery slope

KI.W.
September 27, 2008, 02:40 PM
Yes Sir LAR-15, hunting with handguns is streng verboten here in my country. :mad:
The new gunlaw is ok for my. We old gun nuts can to continue like before. We can to have new guns if we like so. :uhoh: ;) :uhoh:








--------------------------------------
Kuolussa tuli luettua vain ruotsia ja saksaa!

Shung
September 27, 2008, 04:07 PM
The new gunlaw is ok for my. We old gun nuts can to continue like before. We can to have new guns if we like so.

I dont think this is "high road" .. You should also think about young people, that never hurt anyone, and that now will be spoiled of their right.. The antis are proceeding the same everywhere. Divide and conqueer..

KI.W.
September 28, 2008, 10:51 AM
Hello Shung, how are you! "Never hurt anyone" young poeples rights are not spoilet. Lunatics rights are very much so, because two policemen makes interview / interrogation and if nessesery can also to have medical- and army history from first time gunowners, old and young. Policemen can now visiting in internet. Before it was streng verboten. :) They already knows old fart like me with many guns. When I go visiting permission office, they only ask: "How can I help you Sir"? :cool:



----------------------------
A Finnish reloader and shooter. Never mind for it.

finlander
October 2, 2008, 07:06 PM
Hunting with handguns is not allowed in Finland but when used at trapping they're OK and to my understanding quite popular at that (easy to carry in backpack, lightweight and when equipped with suppressor not harmfull to hearing)

KI.W.
October 3, 2008, 07:34 PM
What are you thinking finlander, is it legal here to shoot magpies and crows with my scoped T/C G2 .22Hornet pistol? It is not hunting. I have also silencer with it.

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