So my wife had a ND....of the worst kind.


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GlowinPontiac
September 23, 2008, 10:02 PM
The kind where she shot herself in the leg with a .40 S&W Sigma.:what:

After hearing some strange noises outside and having a few random cars pull up the driveway then back down i had been keeping in on the table next to the bed with a loaded mag but none in the chamber. This was nothing new as i usually keep my snubnose .38 out and she keeps her beretta out and ready as well.

Turns out she picked up the gun while i was out in the driveway working on my car and was looking it over and she racked the slide then pulled the trigger sending a flat nosed FMJ through her leg a few inches below the knee.
All i heard outside was a "pop" and her yelling "OUCH" then a few seconds later her screaming for me to get inside right now. she was able to walk down the stairs on her own and was taken to the hospital and released 2 hours later. The bulled missed the bone and any blood vessels. Threre was almost no blood at all.She is doing fine now and will be going back to work in a few days but will be using crutches.

She knows all about gun safety and usually is the one lecturing me about it! Just goes to show you that one single second of carelesness can lead to something very bad happening. Thank god the bullet did not hit anything vital as a few mm in any direction and it could have shattered bone or severed a major blood vessel.

The police have the gun now but said i can come down and claim it in a day or two and they were very professional and did not lecture us on how guns are bad or that we should not have them. As the officer handed me her beretta to put in the gun cabinet he acutally commented on how nice my collection of guns was and that he would like to buy a few new ones sometime soon.

I'm going to go down to the station friday to get the sigma back and then at my wifes request it is being sold ASAP so she can buy the .380 she saw at the gunshop.

(If its ok with the mods and noone has any objections i can post pictures of the entry/exit wounds if anyone is interested in seeing what kind of damage an accident like this can cause)

on a side note when the police secured the gun i told them of the beretta and my .38 that were upstairs loaded....they unloaded the beretta but did not even notice the .38 was loaded until the asked me to take it downstairs and put it in the cabinet. He told me he unloaded it but his eyes just about popped out of his head when i swung out the cylinder to show him 5 live rounds in there!

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VARifleman
September 23, 2008, 10:05 PM
Glad she's ok.

oneshooter
September 23, 2008, 10:05 PM
Glad that she is going to be alright.

LESSON LEARNED!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope.:D


Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 23, 2008, 10:07 PM
I'm also glad she is alright.

You're selling her beretta though? Does she have more or has this turned her off to guns completely?

p2000sk
September 23, 2008, 10:07 PM
To minimize pulic embarrassment, were you able to have your identities made private if a press release was issued?

Hk91-762mm
September 23, 2008, 10:08 PM
I sure hope all works outwell!
Must have been quite a scare.
Training traning Traning and double practice --!
Question -Was it loaded setting in the house -?
I keep the mag seperate from my gun it only takes a second to slap it home and rack the slide .
I do hope you Have no problems !
Good luck!

jakemccoy
September 23, 2008, 10:11 PM
Wow, she got lucky. I'm glad she's ok.

Did she say why she racked slide? I got the impression you both kept chambers empty.

rodregier
September 23, 2008, 10:11 PM
I can think of a number of possible motivations, but what is her stated reason for wanting the pistol to be sold?

Just curious...

(if you feel like sharing and you know).

GlowinPontiac
September 23, 2008, 10:12 PM
TAURUS: Im not selling the beretta. She loves that little gun and would never part with it! im selling the Sigma. She is not turned off to guns she still has her beretta a winchester 12ga and my mossberg 20ga that she has claimed as her own.

P2000sk : The only press release we found was in the towns online newspaper. THey used her full maiden name and said she was cleaning it at the time. I tried to email/call/write them to tell them their story is wrong but they have absoloutely NO contact info listed. (probably because they write whatever they want wether it is right or wrong)

Jim March
September 23, 2008, 10:15 PM
I'm not a moderator, but I believe such pics are considered on-topic here. It would be irresponsible of us NOT to understand what bullets can do.

Etiquette might be to link to pics off-site with a warning as to what they are - some ARE squeamish. As both a biker and a gunnie I've deliberately trained myself off of squeamishness of that sort and it's worked out well for at least one emergency.

What you need to do next is get her a nice DA revolver for now. These have very low rates of accidental discharge for a reason: they can be operated without ever touching the trigger until it's time to fire. There's no "racking", and no question as to whether it's loaded or not - you can see sideways into the cylinder to check for shell rims, or (without pointing the gun RIGHT at you, look at the front of the cylinder and see the actual rounds. To load or unload, you have to disable the gun's functionality by swinging the cylinder out, which locks the trigger and must be done with finger OFF the trigger.

They're also adjustable in terms of "horsepower levels" - a 357Mag gun can shoot anything from 175ft/lbs energy 38 target ammo up through 800ft/lb stompers in full-house 357, with lots of stops in between at whatever power level you're comfortable with for the weight of gun you have and your experience level. A heavier gun will take you further up the horsepower scale faster.

A K or L-frame S&W 357 or a Ruger GP100 (with optional smaller grips if need be) would work very well.

GlowinPontiac
September 23, 2008, 10:16 PM
I can think of a number of possible motivations, but what is her stated reason for wanting the pistol to be sold?

Just curious...

(if you feel like sharing and you know).

She racked the slide because she did not know that there was any ammo in the house for the gun as she thought we shot it all last time we went out but i saved a mag full as i dont like having a gun around with no ammo. She wants to sell the gun because she thinks it is jinxed. She also has her eye on a used .380 that she wants so i might sell the sigma to a friend and buy her the .380 as it is a bit better than the .22 she carries now. (its going to be interesting explaining what happened to the guys at the gunshop though when she comes in saying she shot herself but still wants to buy another gun!)

JIM: I do have a K fram .357 but she says its too big for her so when she wants to carry a wheel gun she uses my J fram .38
Recoil is no problem for her she does not really even complain firing 12ga slugs.

Geno
September 23, 2008, 10:16 PM
Glad to hear that your wife is well.

Doc2005

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 10:19 PM
Ouch indeed! Been there, done that!

Give your wife a few days and she may change her mind about wanting to get rid of the Beretta. That, or suggest that she switch to a 38/357 revolver as they tend to have fewer problems with AD/ND.

Remind her that the AD wasn't the guns fault---it did exactly what it was designed to do!

Zedicus
September 23, 2008, 10:22 PM
Glad She is ok & thank god it wasn't a JHP.

jakemccoy
September 23, 2008, 10:22 PM
She racked the slide because she did not know that there was any ammo in the house for the gun as she thought we shot it all last time we went out but i saved a mag full as i dont like having a gun around with no ammo. She wants to sell the gun because she thinks it is jinxed. She also has her eye on a used .380 that she wants so i might sell the sigma to a friend and buy her the .380 as it is a bit better than the .22 she carries now.


I pray for her speedy recovery and for her humble understanding that the gun wasn't jinxed.

Firethorn
September 23, 2008, 10:24 PM
jakemccoy - I'd be glad that she doesn't want to sell/dispose of ALL the guns. Like it or not, people can have negative reactions to things that hurt them. You can always get a different gun, perhaps a different model that doesn't have the connotations that this one does now.

Cmdr. Gravez0r
September 23, 2008, 10:25 PM
Remind me never to use FMJ for defense.

GlowinPontiac
September 23, 2008, 10:26 PM
I pray for her speedy recovery and for her humble understanding that the gun wasn't jinxed.

She thinks it is jinxed because one of our friends bought it and then a few months later enlisted in the army and we have not seen him in months and now she just shot herself with it.

IRemind me never to use FMJ for defense.


Yeah...if it was a hollowpoint it would have really torn her leg up! but it really proves that fmj does not do much damage at all. Hell she was able to walk down stairs after that went through her leg!

Maelstrom
September 23, 2008, 10:27 PM
If you rack the slide on a pistol with an empty magazine it should lock back.

The fact that it went into battery should have been clue one that it was loaded.

Secondly, anyone who has ever chambered a round knows there is a very distinct feeling over racking an empty weapon.

Are you absolutely sure she's being completely honest with you? I'm not faulting her. It's human nature to place blame away from themselves. It would probably explain why she wants to sell the gun as well. She's moved the blame to the gun.

jakemccoy
September 23, 2008, 10:27 PM
jakemccoy - I'd be glad that she doesn't want to sell/dispose of ALL the guns. Like it or not, people can have negative reactions to things that hurt them. You can always get a different gun, perhaps a different model that doesn't have the connotations that this one does now.

I hear you. I've never shot myself. So, I can only imagine.

She thinks it is jinxed because one of our friends bought it and then a few months later enlisted in the army and we have not seen him in months and now she just shot herself with it.

OK. Before, I thought she was blaming the gun for it going off.

crebralfix
September 23, 2008, 10:28 PM
Keep the booger picker off the bang button! She'll never do that again!

mr.trooper
September 23, 2008, 10:28 PM
Good grief people... they are not selling the Beretta.

kostner
September 23, 2008, 10:32 PM
Have always worried about ND's around my house because there is always loaded guns. Everyone in the house knows a lot about firearms but I am the only who is armed 24/7. And you have all heard "out sight out of mind". Will say a prayer for her.

Poor East Texan
September 23, 2008, 10:39 PM
I've had guns for 30+ years. I've had one AD in that time. Blasted a .45FMJ through a wall in a rent house as I had been fighting feeding problems and just forgot about the round in the chamber.

Maybe mag disconnects ARE good for something.....

Glad the wife is okay and didn't turn anti by this!

kingpin008
September 23, 2008, 10:40 PM
First, glad that she's OK (well, you know what I mean). Glad she came out of it with relatively minor wounds considering what could have happened.

That said, I second Jim March's post - I think that one of the best things one can do in these cases is post pics of the injury. We can all read the posts detailing the incidents, but seeing the actual, real results is something even more motivating. I also agree that they should be hosted somewhere else and a link posted, so as not to force those who really don't want to (or can't stand to) stomach them to see them.

Legionnaire
September 23, 2008, 10:42 PM
Ouch! Sorry to hear of the mishap. Praying for complete and speedy recovery.

ColinthePilot
September 23, 2008, 10:50 PM
Wow, glad she's ok. I'm just waiting for my first ND, because I haven't had one yet, and I know I never will. From what I've read on THR, thats what every shooter says until they have a ND.

Blues Brother
September 23, 2008, 10:54 PM
Glad to hear she is going to be OK

I just laughed out loud at the "keep the booger picker off the trigger" comment. :D

CountGlockula
September 23, 2008, 10:56 PM
I commend your bravery and honesty in sharing this.

jahwarrior
September 23, 2008, 10:57 PM
hey, stuff happens. be glad it wasn't a mossberg 500. ask me about my headboard.....

distra
September 23, 2008, 11:02 PM
Let me first say I'm extremely glad your wife is ok. Sore leg beats the alternative. Unfortunately these this do happen. It seems like the PD were pretty respectful, but one bit I didn't like was the plug by the PD for gun locks and how they could have prevented this incident. :banghead: No lock will prevent a momentary lapse. Anyway, glad things are going to turn out ok for everyone.

larry_minn
September 23, 2008, 11:10 PM
So how long has your wife been a DEA agent? :)
Honestly I am glad she was not hurt worse. You MUST train yourself (and your wife) to keep muzzle pointed AWAY from yourself/others you care for.

Poor East Texan
September 23, 2008, 11:13 PM
Booger picker off of the bang switch goes a long way towards safety!

Mike128
September 23, 2008, 11:13 PM
I hope your wife has a speedy recovery. Thankfully it was nothing worse.

Also, thank you for sharing. As embarassing as it can be, it serves as a reminder to the rest of us to be careful. It's easy to get lax with familarity.

Jim Watson
September 23, 2008, 11:17 PM
.38 revolver
Beretta DA-SA auto
Sigma mushy pull.

Three different action types might be two too many for a non enthusiast to keep track of. It is one more than I try to keep track of at any given time. I think she should specialize; pick one action type, stick with it, and leave the others to you.

Travis McGee
September 23, 2008, 11:56 PM
After this experience, I'd seriously recommend she go with a revolver, not a .380. Keep it simple. Nuff said.

GigaBuist
September 24, 2008, 12:05 AM
Did she rack the slide with her finger in the trigger guard or stick it in there after chambering a round?

Sounds like a classic case of picking up a pistol with your finger on the trigger. One of the first things suggested to me when I bought my first gun was to put it on the couch next to me, unloaded, and pick it up and put it down about a thousand times with my finger off the trigger as I watched TV for a couple of nights.

It worked. Never put my finger on a trigger by accident after that.

Sounds like your wife might want to try it.

RancidSumo
September 24, 2008, 12:17 AM
My brother almost did the same thing. He racked the slide on my .40 which chambered a round. I was in the room at the time so I was able to tell him, "You just chambered a round" and he unloaded it and put it away.

loneviking
September 24, 2008, 12:19 AM
One of our TH members has a sight for AD/ND stories at:

www.negligentdischarge.com

He's posting my story over there and there are lots of other stories well worth looking at there. You could post this AD there as well.

conw
September 24, 2008, 12:27 AM
She wants to sell the gun because she thinks it is jinxed.

I know people say that kind of thing jokingly, but you may want to work with her to get rid of that type of thinking.

Reasons to sell the gun
-It reminds her of an unpleasant accident (logical)
-it may be jinxed (not logical; how could a gun magically affect her concentration and cause her to shoot her own leg?)

Reasons to keep the gun (bear with me)
-It will remind her not to make the same mistake! Seriously, do you think she would ever be careless with that same gun again??

It's natural for the mind to look for, and sometimes settle on, external causes...but there is only one variable here that mattered, and that was her safety protocol.

It seems like a terrible reason to sell a gun if nothing else has changed. Plus, she needs to take full, 100% responsibility for this one in order to avoid future accidents/negligent incidents.

I am very glad she's okay though.

Old Grump
September 24, 2008, 12:43 AM
I am a 1911 user and skilled in the use of it but I have seen 3 ND's, 2 with 1911's and one with a 22 pistol in stress situations. This is precisely why my personal bedside gun is a revolver because I don't expect to be fully up to speed if I am roused out of a sleep late at night. Every single discharge was done by people who knew better and ordinarily were competent gun handlers. Stress makes everybody do things or not do things they would ordinarily do. It happens, its not a weakness its just reaction to how your body reacts to adrenaline and stress. Nobody knows till they are at the party. A different gun that one is more comfortable with may help with a different frame of mind and that might help in a stress situation. Anything that works is good.

XavierBreath
September 24, 2008, 12:43 AM
Glad to hear she is on the mend.

I'll give you the go ahead on the pics, just keep them in thumbnail sizes using the attachment feature available in the advanced posting mode so members can decide if they want to view them full size or not.

mstirton
September 24, 2008, 03:27 AM
Scary topic so it was nice to read she was lucky and everything was ok.
Good luck selling a Sigma, let alone a jinxed one that doesn't stop a leg at point blank.;)

Kind of Blued
September 24, 2008, 03:31 AM
I'm glad she's alright. This certainly wasn't of "the worst kind". Be grateful for that!

Odd Job
September 24, 2008, 03:36 AM
Glad she is okay.
Yes please, do provide the pics, I'm always interested in entry and exit wounds.

Gunshots to the lower leg are quite common. If you spend a weekend in a city trauma unit you are bound to see at least one or two.

RDak
September 24, 2008, 07:51 AM
Glad she is ok!! Make sure she knows it was her fault and not the fault of a "jinxed" gun!!

Floppy_D
September 24, 2008, 08:43 AM
Hope she gets well soon. One of my good friend's rommates ND'ed his leg in a BAD way... his leg swole to the point that they had to split the skin open in several places to avoid tearing... he had to carry a vaccum pump in a backpack to keep fluids from building up.

Glad she made out!

rondog
September 24, 2008, 08:47 AM
I, too, am glad she's OK! I'm also glad there weren't hollowpoints in the gun!

You won't miss the Sigma, I hear they have awful triggers anyway.

FieroCDSP
September 24, 2008, 08:57 AM
Another reminder to always check the gun to know it's condition. Or to be more specific to the rule, "treat every gun as if it's loaded."

I'm glad she's okay, and I hope she's learned from this. Always rack the slide several times and visually check for ammo.

3KillerBs
September 24, 2008, 09:05 AM
Glad she's OK. Thanks for sharing this humbling incident as a lesson for all.

texastony
September 24, 2008, 09:16 AM
Glad to hear that she's ok.

rantingredneck
September 24, 2008, 09:22 AM
Again, glad to hear she's OK.

I had a Sigma .40 for awhile. One of the reasons I sold it was the "pull the trigger for takedown" thing. Just not a design feature that I'm very happy with.

May her recovery be swift my friend. Thanks for posting.

RobNDenver
September 24, 2008, 10:05 AM
Glad to hear that she is going to be ok. And it sounds like you handled it perfectly with her and with the police.

Good luck with the .380. My wife has a p232 that she thinks is the best gun we own.

Chipperman
September 24, 2008, 11:29 AM
Glad to hear she's ok.

What happened to the bullet after it went through her leg?
How far did it go before stopping?
Did you recover it?

baryon
September 24, 2008, 11:53 AM
Glad that she is OK. I wish her a speedy recovery.

Here is what I do while handling guns at home. Keep a stack of old telephone directories so that the total height is 15 inches. Point the gun vertically downwards towards the stack of books whenever you load/unload or do anything else with it. 15 inches of papers stops most of the handgun bullets. Make this a habit. Even if you do have a AD, there is no damage to anyone or property.

Loosedhorse
September 24, 2008, 12:05 PM
she racked the slide then pulled the trigger

Why, exactly, did she do that? (I understand that in an "unthinking moment" there may be no explanation.)

Biggest problem here is muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction (even more important than the "bang switch" rule). I would sentence your wife to 30 days of having to carry the gun (unloaded) around with her, IN HER HAND, at least an hour every day, so that it becomes unconscious second-nature to keep that muzzle pointed away from her and others no matter where in the house she is, and that it feels down-right awful, even with the action open for cleaning, to have it pointed at herself. Any portion of herself.

One of my instructors mentioned, "You can always tell the folks in the class who have been shot. You accidently cross one of them with your muzzle, and your next realization will be that you're on your back, your arm is sore, and your weapon has been taken away from you. So don't do it."

I keep the fired case from my AD, years ago now--no one hurt--on my night table, and look at it everyday.

Seems an advantage of FMJs over hollow-points is that accidental injuries are more minor. :) And I don't even want to think what a rifle AD would look like ('course, it's harder to cross yourself with a rifle!).

Wishing her a speedy recovery, and a long memory.

Old Grump
September 24, 2008, 02:25 PM
Its harder to shoot yourself with a rifle but I have a buddy from high school with a red puckered button sized scar even after nearly 50 years on the top of his right foot. Thats where he rested the barrel of his 22. He still shoots but he seems to be kind of paranoid about where his barrel is pointed. Messed up his shoe.

Flintlock Tom
September 24, 2008, 06:49 PM
Sorry for the wife's pain, now...since you're going to post pictures anyway, I'm kinda' partial to lacy/clingy stuff that shows lots of leg. :evil:
But cover up the boo-boo, I don't want to be distracted.

usmarine0352_2005
September 24, 2008, 07:08 PM
Wow, that's a close one.


Your wrong though.....the "ND of the worst kind" is when you hear a pop and you come into the room and someone is dead.


Your both very lucky.

Don Gwinn
September 24, 2008, 08:10 PM
Is it too soon to ask whether she assumed it wouldn't fire if she pulled the trigger because it's a Sigma?
:)

Ah, too soon, I see. OK.

springmom
September 24, 2008, 08:12 PM
Glad she's ok, but you know, it wasn't the worst kind of ND.

The worst kind is when you shoot someone else. Especially a child.

Springmom

porterdog
September 24, 2008, 08:55 PM
Holy crap. I don't think it was the worst kind at all; rather a soft lesson!

Post the pictures, and give her a hug!

wyocarp
September 24, 2008, 08:58 PM
Is it too soon to ask whether she assumed it wouldn't fire if she pulled the trigger because it's a Sigma?

She probably wouldn't have this problem if she had a Glock in her hand because she would know if she pulled the trigger it would go bang.

wyocarp
September 24, 2008, 09:01 PM
So my wife had a ND....of the worst kind.

That title is soooo misleading. It was clearly not the worst kind. She is still alive, which is good news.

jrfoxx
September 24, 2008, 09:13 PM
Glad she is gonna be ok.
I cant imagine how bad getting shot has got to hurt. I'm thinking new realms of unimagined pain, and that from a guy who had his breastbown sawn in half, yanked foreward, and tied together with stainless steel (yes, that does hurt quite a bit, but it was surgery, done by consumate professionals, and planned, so I'll wager getting shot is WAY worse).

again, glad she is ok, and on top of the deal, is not "turned off" of guns and such.

and +1 on the pics. not for a "thrill" or the gore, or simple curiousity, or anything like that, but as a sobering, visual reminder to us all of the seriousness, and power of guns.

torpid
September 24, 2008, 11:22 PM
The gun isn't jinxed. :rolleyes:

Always treat the gun as if it's loaded
she picked up the gun... and was looking it over... and she racked the slide because she did not know that there was any ammo in the house for the gun as she thought we shot it all last time we went out... Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot... then pulled the trigger... Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
sending a flat nosed FMJ through her leg

I have to join in on asking why she would ever treat the gun was unloaded, rack the slide, and pull the trigger while pointing it at her leg?

Your account sounds like she wasn't taking it apart, so was she trying to dry fire it?
Was she aware of the four rules?

She knows all about gun safety and usually is the one lecturing me about it!

I'm sure that has come to an end. ;)

GlowinPontiac
September 26, 2008, 12:14 AM
Glad to hear she's ok.

What happened to the bullet after it went through her leg?
How far did it go before stopping?
Did you recover it?

after going through her leg it nicked a pine table our fish tank is on then simply stuck in the carpet. did not even dent the subfloor.
the police have have the bullet and she wants it back as a reminder of just what can happen when you make a mistake.

Im going to call the PD tomorrow and see if i can pick up the gun yet. Hopefully they still have the bullet and did not just throw it away.

She was not trying to takedown the gun she knows how to do that as she is a very experienced shooter. she simply was trying to dry fire it.

Jst1mr
September 26, 2008, 12:34 AM
of my uncle, who worked as an armored car security guard in Chicago for ~30yrs. Certainly no stranger to safe gun handling or dealing with adrenaline, but managed to shoot himself in the upper leg while unholstering his Hi-Power during a "bump in the night" episode. Bullet went in his upper leg, performed an amazing 'corkscrew' around his femur, and exited above the knee (not sure of bullet type). Recovered amazingly well, but had that bullet messed with the femoral artery it would've turned out different..

t3rmin
September 26, 2008, 12:48 AM
On what grounds did the police confiscate your weapon? And on what grounds did they not return it immediately upon request?

Zach S
September 26, 2008, 10:13 AM
the police have have the bullet and she wants it back as a reminder of just what can happen when you make a mistake.

The police didnt even come out when I had my ND, and I still have the bullet as a reminder. As well as the subwoofer and box I shot...

GunnerD
September 26, 2008, 10:17 AM
Thank God she's alright. She's lucky you don't keep your weapon loaded with hollow points. It would have been a considerable mess worse. Prayers for a speedy recovery.

jahwarrior
September 26, 2008, 10:21 AM
On what grounds did the police confiscate your weapon? And on what grounds did they not return it immediately upon request?

that's a good question. i never thought about that. no crime was involved, why would they confiscate it? hmmmm......:scrutiny:

larry_minn
September 26, 2008, 12:59 PM
On what grounds did the police confiscate your weapon? And on what grounds did they not return it immediately upon request

I would think as possible evidence in a investigation?

Do any of you realize how often a women who has been beaten REPEATEDLY will say when asked "who did this to you" She will say "I FELL"

It is POSSIBLE that you shot her and she is covering for you. They hold onto the gun for a couple days/ask themselves if anything felt (off) Maybe call her to see if she is feeling ok/gives any hint something else maybe happened. I have no problem with them holding it for couple days. I do have trouble when they take EVERY gun a person owns and refuses for months to return them.

zerosignal
September 26, 2008, 01:03 PM
Most cities have an ordinance against discharging a firearm within city limits. If his does, then that is their probable cause for confiscating the weapon.

Erik
September 26, 2008, 03:12 PM
Another "glad she is OK" comment.

RONSTAR
September 26, 2008, 11:07 PM
How unbelievebly irresponsible. Glad shes ok though.

GlowinPontiac
September 27, 2008, 03:50 AM
On what grounds did the police confiscate your weapon? And on what grounds did they not return it immediately upon request?

They took it as standard procedure. They wanted to make sure it wasnt a domestic violence crime. They knew i had more guns and did not care at all about them. They were very professional about it They asked me if i had any weapons on me and i told them no and they gave me a quick pat down and that was all. I was told that anytime there is a call about a gun being discharged and somebody is shot that the gun is taken until they are sure it was an accident. They already told me that they know it was an accident so i just have to get down to the station and pick up the gun.

On a side note my wife plans to make a necklace out of the bullet if she gets it back from the police. That way it will be a constant reminder that one mistake with a gun can have severe consequences.

I have some pics of the wounds that i will be posting as soon as i can get them uploaded to a hosting site.

Defensory
September 27, 2008, 04:15 AM
Posted by Comdr. GravezOr:
Remind me never to use FMJ for defense.
Posted by GlowinPontiac:
Yeah...if it was a hollowpoint it would have really torn her leg up! but it really proves that fmj does not do much damage at all. Hell she was able to walk down stairs after that went through her leg!

Don't make sweeping generalizations based on one incident. ;)

I know a guy who got shot in the leg with a hollow point, and it didn't do any more damage than that FMJ did to your wife's leg. He was able to walk to the ambulance when it arrived. He underwent routine surgery, and was back at his place of work in a relatively short period of time. No permanent damage whatsoever.

Defensory
September 27, 2008, 04:27 AM
Posted by GlowinPontiac:
She knows all about gun safety

I'm glad your wife wasn't seriously hurt, and will make a full recovery.

However, since she violated three of the four main rules of gun safety, you might want to go over all of them with her a few times, just to make sure she still "knows all about" them. ;)

plexreticle
September 27, 2008, 05:00 AM
I'm pretty sure she learned her her lesson about gun safety.

Odd Job
September 27, 2008, 06:05 AM
Glowin if you like, I can put those pics in the thread, with all the necessary editing :)

onebigelf
September 27, 2008, 08:39 AM
Only AD I've ever had so far was while lowering the hammer on a chambered round on a 1911 before leaving the range. Got sand in my eyes from the discharge barrel. Thumb slipped. Accidents happen, that's why they are called accidents. Otherwise we'd call them deliberates.

John

moooose102
September 27, 2008, 08:56 AM
i am glad your wife will be well soon, and it was not more serious. i am also glad that her mishap hasn't made her change her veiws on guns. it is not the guns fault, she made the mistake. but a lot of people refuse to believe that after an accident happens. she broke rule #1. keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. next time she is giving you greif about something, for a mistake you made, just remind her about rule # 1! and then, LAUGH! or it might not be so funny.

Claude Clay
September 27, 2008, 10:35 AM
"accidents can be forgiven with small children and women. men are not allowed that luxury."
PLEASE don't flame me.....i am quoting our friend R.A. Heinlein.
i can see how negligence happens, carelessness happens, unsafe gun handling happens. just plain stupid happens. but i cannot wrap my mind around the words 'accident' and 'gun' at the same time. the word 'accident' as used of late has come to mean--"hey man, it's not my fault; it was an accident". it goes to avoiding or even acknowledging responsibility for your actions. even if it is a mechanical failure--like in a car when a tie rod breaks or the well known cz52 decocker that may act as a trigger, if the operator has trained proper--even these events can be safely concluded.
there are things, that except in the most dire of situations, you can do, but never would. like put a car in PARK while it is still moving. or lower the hammer on a live 1911.

good that she is Ok and thank you for sharing this, what got to be emotionally and physically , painful event.

tigre
September 27, 2008, 11:17 AM
"accidents can be forgiven with small children and women. men are not allowed that luxury."
PLEASE don't flame me.....i am quoting our friend R.A. Heinlein.
What does her being female have anything to do with this? Plenty of men have shot themselves and called it an "accident." The above quote only applies to people who are apt to treat women as children and not hold them responsible for themselves as adults. If you think that way, that's on you. I certainly don't.

And don't quote someone and then pretend you aren't responsible for it. You're the one who decided it was appropriate for the situation. It is ironic though, posting a quote about personal responsibility and then not taking responsibility for it.

gym
September 27, 2008, 12:12 PM
Accidental discharges are just like any other accident. There will always be accidents as long as humans are involved. And the longer and more comfortable folks get with anything, the more likely that they will take their mind off of it or get distracted. That's all it takes. Pro's like military and law enforcement personel have them and they are a lot more aware and better trained than the casual handgun user. Glad the wife is OK, and it didn't taint her feeling for guns in general.

Stevie-Ray
September 27, 2008, 12:53 PM
the police have have the bullet and she wants it back as a reminder of just what can happen when you make a mistake.
I'd have it rigged up with a 14K gold chain, and wear it for a necklace. That way, I'd NEVER forget. I'm happy she'll be back to normal of sorts, soon. Give her a "thank God" hug for us.

Claude Clay
September 27, 2008, 01:07 PM
i should have said " please don't flame the quote":uhoh: for that i stand corrected and also i stand behind picking the quote and what i said. pointers or sitters, if one try's to fluff off their actions under the umbrella of 'accident' than they may walk on two legs but they arn't fully human. the OP chose the term 'ND'. i don't see any hiding here.

Loosedhorse
September 27, 2008, 01:45 PM
Accidents happen, that's why they are called accidents. Otherwise we'd call them deliberates.
Accidental discharges are just like any other accident. There will always be accidents as long as humans are involved.
Despite their truth, I don't like these statements, gym and onebigelf (John), with all respect. They can be read as having a "s--t happens, what can you do?" attitude, not the best attitude to prevent ADs. And attitude is crucial.

Car accidents are probably close to what most people think of by "accident." Whether or not you have a car accident can be heavily determined by road conditions, weather conditions, and the actions of others--all of which are beyond our control. (Still, in MOST of these situations the driver might have significantly reduced his risk of accident by changing his behavior: driving slower, pulling over if visibility was poor, etc.)

ADs are generally NOT like these other accidents: except for that rare unanticipatable mechanical failure in a well maintained gun, ADs are preventable, and they are our fault. Most involve the shooter pulling the trigger when the gun was thought to be unloaded. Others may involve placing your finger on the trigger without intention to shoot, and then you get bumped, startled, whatever. And almost ALL injuries from ADs can be prevented by keeping the muzzle pointed safely.

We should, all of us, put as many reasonable behavioral obstacles between us and ADs as we can, so that more than one safety behavior has to break down to allow an AD. Even if that means rechecking the unloaded status of a firearm a seemingly unnecessary number of times (like I do), and going through ridiculous contortions to prevent muzzle-crossing any part of a person, even in gun stores.

Safe training and FREQUENT safe practice are keys. And an "I can prevent ADs" attitude beats the heck out of "Accidents happen" (even though they do).

Be safe.

"A seemingly obsessive concern for safety is the mark of a professional."--Massad Ayoob

NonConformist
September 27, 2008, 01:49 PM
Why did she rack it, then pull the trigger?

Even if it was supposed to be empty what purpose did racking it have, and then why pull the trigger to return it to the condition it was before she racked it?

That doesnt make ANY sense! Glad she is OK though!

Rxxdoc
September 27, 2008, 02:28 PM
Well, I ran my hand into a snowblower.

Worst part of being human is doing something human.

Glad she is OK.

scrat
September 27, 2008, 02:41 PM
Glow in Pontiac.

whats the update. Were you able to retrieve your gun and how is your wifes leg now

3rd Generation American
September 27, 2008, 09:32 PM
Glad your wife is OK.
My wife says she should just of told you she didn't like the color of the Sigma and wanted to sell it instead of shooting herself with it, so you would sell it. Women!

hemiram
September 28, 2008, 02:15 AM
I've been shot with a BB gun in the face (Been in my upper lip 40 years now) and also shot myself through my hand with one, and it hurt like hell. The hand took a long time to heal up, it was right at the fold, and kept breaking open. I wouldn't even want to think about how bad a .40 round would hurt. Glad to hear she's ok though.

Kentak
September 28, 2008, 04:00 AM
First, very happy to hear the injury was not nearly as serious as it could have been. You already know how lucky she is.

Now, *** was she thinking--or not thinking? She didn't notice the extra weight of a full magazine of ammo in plastic framed gun? She didn't follow the prime directive of assuming all guns are loaded until you verify its condition by careful inspection? She pointed the gun toward herself while pulling the trigger?

Even when I dry fire a gun I *know* is unloaded I would never point it towards me or anyone else when pulling the trigger.

These mistakes on her part are, really, unforgivable for a person who is entrusted with a loaded gun. Please make sure she understands and always follows all of the basic rules. Until then, she's more of a danger to herself and others than a bad guy would be for which she is arming herself.

Again, a hard way to learn from mistakes. I hope she has a speedy recovery and thanks her lucky stars.

K

06
September 28, 2008, 04:26 AM
ADs do happen because we are not perfect ourselves. A buddy was doing a decocking in his truck and touched the trigger instead. Put a hole in the floor and red on his face. I do not use a decocker and like plain old 1911 styles because of the multiple safeties.
Reviewing safety and practicing occasionally keeps one aware of how to safely handle firearms. When lowering the hammer of my 45 I use two fingers. One is below the hammer so if my thumb should slip it still cannot fire.
Glad your wife is OK-could have been much worse. A buddy had a wheel gun fall from his holster when "heeding the call of nature" and got a round through his buttocks. He uses a 1911 style now because of it's safety records, wc

Defensory
September 28, 2008, 04:53 AM
Posted by Kentak:
These mistakes on her part are, really, unforgivable for a person who is entrusted with a loaded gun.

So what do you suggest? Permanently banning her from ever using a handgun again?

It was undoubtedly a very serious mistake that shouldn't be taken lightly.

However, the test of her "mettle" is if she learns from her mistake, and never allows it to happen again.

Kentak
September 28, 2008, 10:00 AM
So what do you suggest? Permanently banning her from ever using a handgun again?

How about a self-imposed ban until she can recite the Four Rules forwards and backwards? You NEVER assume a gun is unloaded. She racked the slide and didn't bother to glance through the ejection port? If she had she would have seen the loaded magazine. Then she pulls the trigger without pointing the gun away from herself.

Yes, we are human and make mistakes. I make them, too. I admitted on this forum a while back that I had a ND when I pulled the trigger on a gun I thought was unloaded. Even then, though, I instinctively pointed the gun toward the concrete basement wall of the crawl space. The only harm was a hell of a fright for both me and my wife who heard the shot from upstairs.

And, yes, I was a hard on myself as I am with this lucky lady. I didn't make any excuses for my complacency. I immediately changed my routine for how I handle guns during a cleaning session and when and where they are reloaded.

All of us in the "gun community" should be hard on ourselves and others to ensure we avoid accidents like this.

K

LongRider
September 28, 2008, 11:17 AM
Glad she is OK. Thank you for the share we all can use the reminder to follow the four rules. I especially appreciate your and her honesty and integrity. It takes courage to acknowledge a foul up of that magnitude, so that other are reminded not to repeat the mistake

To all those who keep saying AD there is no such animal. In the OP the gentleman's lady took full responsibility for her NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. She had the honor and integrity to acknowledge that she racked the slide and pulled the trigger. It is what was said it is what she did. Any of us can do it the instant we allow ourselves to get complacent and believe the myth of AD. With modern firearms there is not such thing as an Accidental Discharge

t3rmin
September 28, 2008, 11:26 AM
They took it as standard procedure. They wanted to make sure it wasnt a domestic violence crime. They knew i had more guns and did not care at all about them. They were very professional about it They asked me if i had any weapons on me and i told them no and they gave me a quick pat down and that was all. I was told that anytime there is a call about a gun being discharged and somebody is shot that the gun is taken until they are sure it was an accident. They already told me that they know it was an accident so i just have to get down to the station and pick up the gun.

My point was mainly: these are questions we need to ask, ya know? Your property has been taken by force by your government. Not just any property, but your firearm which represents the exercise of a fundamental right. What if that was your only one? You'd be defenseless until the powers that be decide you can have your rights back. That's serious business. Standard procedure doesn't make it right or legal.

I can see the city discharge ordinance thing. But from your story there was no indication they intended to charge your wife with that.

If this is a plain enough case of accident that they tell you so directly, where is the cause to confiscate? If you said something incriminating to him, it'd be used against you (rightly) in court. Yet a law enforcement officer articulates the absence of cause to seize, goes ahead and does it anyway, and we think nothing of it?

It smells bad to me, but obviously we don't have enough information here to say for sure whether it was legal. But again, my point is, if the government has just confiscated property, especially a defensive tool, we ought to know chapter and verse that they had the right to do so.

It's not a sidenote to the story. Along with the safety discussion and knowing your wife is OK, it IS the story. Just sayin'...

Loosedhorse
September 28, 2008, 01:12 PM
I think all of us "get" that an ND/AD is almost always the user's fault. Similarly, if I drop and break a glass while putting it away, it was my fault--but we don't call that a "negligent."

The term "negligent," however, has a specific legal meaning: that you had a duty and did not perform that duty. After basic training, the military considers that it's the soldier's (or sailor's, etc.) duty to be in control of his weapon--as I understand it, severe penalties attach to a military ND even if no injury is done. And bravo.

I, for one, do NOT prefer to use the legal term "negligent discharge" for a civilian, non-professional AD. If we think of a typical AD (say, someone with a 1911 who prefers Condition 2 carry, and the hammer slips as he's lowering it, discharging the weapon), well, let's count the "errors" he's made:

1. Chose a 1911, which some people feel are more prone to AD than DAOs. (But others feel ther's no mistake in going 1911.)
2. Chose condition 2 carry, which in this type of gun REQUIRES you to pull the trigger on a full chamber and NOT get a discharge (But some people feel condition 2 is best for them).
3. Didn't interpose something (his other thumb) between hammer and firing pin as he lowered the hammer, or did but insufficiently to prevent discharge.
4. Let the hammer slip away from him.

I would argue that the "mistake" happened at step 2, when he chose a mode of carry that would predispose to AD; or at 3 by not having a better decocking technique. But the AD happened at step 4. Is this then an ND--or a "negligent" decision followed by an AD? Or just an AD?

ADs are our fault. If they violate (or are later decided to have violated) a legal obligation, then they are negligent. But failing such a legal finding, can't they be just accidents?

I do not think that every accident, even if it is our fault, is per se negligence. If so, by similar logic we should consider every driver who "could have" possibly avoided an accident by changing his behavior (usually driving slower) to also be negligent. This would largely remove the term "traffic accident" from our vocabulary.

None of this changes the fact that a driver involved in an accident should use that event to develop safer driving techniques, and any shooter who has an AD TO WHICH HE IN ANY WAY CONTRIBUTED must change his ways.

(A bit off-topic, I know, but a lot of disputes are caused by parties using the same word differently, so I wanted to clarify my ideas on "accident" and "negligent.")

CDignition
September 28, 2008, 02:59 PM
the worst kind is where she or someone else winds up dead.. so it wasn't really the worst kind...She needs more training.

Afy
September 28, 2008, 03:12 PM
The wound will heal. Glad everyone is safe. We all make mistakes.

NonConformist
September 28, 2008, 03:26 PM
I still fail to see why she would rack an 'empty' gun, and then pull the trigger!

The hammer would have been down prior to racking, so why rack it and pull the trigger just to return it to the state it was originally?

LongRider
September 29, 2008, 01:15 AM
I do not think that every accident, even if it is our fault, is per se negligence.

Sorry IMO playing legal mumbo jumbo word games like that is totally irrelevant and irresponsible. Taking real world responsibility for our actions IS relevant. Being grown ups accountable for our actions is what responsible gun ownership is about. If we are going to minimize rationalize and justify not using due diligence than we should not carry a DEADLY WEAPON. Modern firearms DO NOT go off my accident. They do not just jump up and go boom. They REQUIRE specific deliberate step in order to fire. There are no accidental discharges only deliberate intentional firing and negligent discharges. Assuming anything else is shirking our responsibility putting not only ourselves but everyone around us in danger

Mortech
September 29, 2008, 02:12 AM
Well I'm glad to hear she'll be OK and I'd like to welcome her to the 'ND Perforation Club' . Anyhow I'm glad it didn't turn her off toward guns .

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2008, 01:00 PM
Sorry IMO playing legal mumbo jumbo word games like that is totally irrelevant and irresponsible.
Seeking agreed-upon definitions of words is never irrelevant.

Although it varies, usual definitions of negligence involve "failure to act as a reasonable and prudent person would under similar circumstances." I guess anyone who believes that no reasonable, prudent person has ever had an AD should side with ND. Those who believe a resonable and prudent person can still have an accident may opt for AD.

Irresponsible? If that's how I seem to you, you are of course entitled to your opinion. However, my response nowhere denies responsibility or accountability.

They REQUIRE specific deliberate step in order to fire.

Or specific, non-deliberate steps.

Appreciate the exchange.

crebralfix
September 30, 2008, 03:01 PM
Glowin,

Has your wife recovered?

The two of you may want to develop a "procedure" for safe handling. I found it works out well because the only thinking involved is safe gun handling. I do things like:

1) If a handgun is in a holster, it's really, really always loaded because it's "on duty". (As opposed to merely "always" loaded).

2) Loaded handguns get placed into holsters or the safe (something to cover the trigger).

3) Using verbalization:

When handling a gun, state out loud:

A) (Before touching gun) "This gun is loaded."
B) (Pick-up gun) "Muzzle pointed in a safe direction."
C) (Open action and clear). "Action is clear."
D) (Check again). "Verified action is clear."
E) (Move ammo away from gun) "Ammunition separated from the gun".
F) (Put gun down) "Gun is pointed in a safe direction and unloaded."

If you give the gun to someone:

A) (Hold out gun, point in safe direction) "Your gun"
B) (Recipient gets solid grip on gun) "My gun"
C) Recipient does clearing procedure ( should be already clear if you didn't intend for them to shoot) or shoots, depending upon the situation.

If you're dry firing:

A) Do scenario #1.
B) Double check that there's no ammunition IN THE ROOM. If that's not possible, it needs to go into a safe, box, or bag...something that you have to formally futz with.
C) "This is a NON-FIRING drill"
D) "Verified clear"
E) Do your drills.

If you do these each and every time, you will not have a problem.

BigStick
October 1, 2008, 12:11 AM
One of the first things suggested to me when I bought my first gun was to put it on the couch next to me, unloaded, and pick it up and put it down about a thousand times with my finger off the trigger as I watched TV for a couple of nights.
Thanks for the tip. I will have to try this. I just started using firearms less than 2 months ago and I've noticed that my finger automatically goes on the trigger unless I'm consciously thinking about where I'm putting it. I need to break that habit.

Serena
October 1, 2008, 07:08 PM
Hope your wife is recovering well. Thanks to all for underlining the need for drilling safety habits which are thorough and thought through.

baryon
October 5, 2008, 02:08 AM
A) (Before touching gun) "This gun is loaded."
B) (Pick-up gun) "Muzzle pointed in a safe direction."
C) (Open action and clear). "Action is clear."
D) (Check again). "Verified action is clear."
E) (Move ammo away from gun) "Ammunition separated from the gun".
F) (Put gun down) "Gun is pointed in a safe direction and unloaded."


Here is a easy one taught up North.

PROVE
P -------> Point gun in a safe direction.
R -------> Remove all cartridges
O -------> Observe the chamber(rack the slide)
V -------> Verify the feeding path
E -------> Examine the bore

mccook8
October 5, 2008, 03:56 PM
PROVE
P -------> Point gun in a safe direction.
R -------> Remove all cartridges
O -------> Observe the chamber(rack the slide)
V -------> Verify the feeding path
E -------> Examine the bore

That's awesome!

I'm "stealing" it.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
October 5, 2008, 11:43 PM
another glad she is ok,

but again another what the hell was she thinking.

i have a sigma .40 and love it(daily carry) ive dry fired it thousands of times and cleaned it about half that many times.

she clearly was not paying attsion to what she was doing.

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