Col Jeff Cooper said you should own what?


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Glockster35
September 10, 2003, 01:01 PM
I have read something many years ago, that Col Jeff Cooper said you should have several basic types of firearms.

I recall a lever action rifle, an auto loading pistol, a revolver, and a scout type rifle.

What exactly does his list include and where was this printed.

While I agree with a lot of the things Col Cooper has said over the years, I think his writing style is odd, and most of the stuff he writes about nowdays is useless to me. I could really care less about the adventures of others down in Africa on safari...But maybe some of you guys like this stuff.

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TonyB
September 10, 2003, 01:13 PM
I guarantee the auto pistol was a 45.......they're the only pistols he thinks can be effective.....:rolleyes:

Gunfyter
September 10, 2003, 01:16 PM
Cooper is an absolute master of the English language. I have enjoyed his writings for years and will miss them when he is gone. Because of Col. Cooper, we have the pistol techniques that we use today. He has a website and several years of his writings, a very worthwhile read. You might not always agree with him but he's as true an American Patriot as you'll find.

El Tejon
September 10, 2003, 01:18 PM
Tony, not so! He has used in peace and in war many different handguns.

Uncle Jeff has written extensively upon firearms. The question is when and where. Uncle Jeff's answer is always "it depends."

In Uncle Mel's book, he lists a "survival battery" to get one through the Carter years. Other places he has written about rimfires, pistols, lever actions, the CKC being a "must have", a Lee-Enfield, a Krag or an '03 being a "must have", a .460 GundA being a "must have."

TonyB
September 10, 2003, 01:25 PM
ok I stand corrected.....I have a small feild of expeirence of Cooper's writing....although I do find him amusing,and I think he is a great patriot.I didn't mean anything by my statement ,I just thought he was MR.Bigbore 45....:cool:

Pendragon
September 10, 2003, 01:35 PM
There seems to be this notion in our techno society that events, people and activities that we cannot directly relate to are of no value to us.

In another time, men learned all sorts of things that were not of immediate and direct use to them - like latin perhaps. The understanding was that learning a trade or a skill did not make one educated, but learning about the world and history and language and culture made one more aware of the world and imparted an understanding that while things may seem very different in different places, those are surface details - some things are very much the same where ever you go, some things are very different. The sophisitcated, educated gentleman understands this.

Kaylee
September 10, 2003, 01:36 PM
Well, from what I've read he is Mr.BigBore .45. Which isn't to say he -- or anyone here -- would volunteer to stand in front of an "ineffective" Euro round. Just that his preference seems to be for the 1911 pattern .45.

works for me. :)


Not to hijack the thread, but who came up with that ol' saw about "a pistol on the nightstand, a 12-guage by the door, a .30-06 for reaching out, you don't need any more?" Sounds like something he'd agree with, but I don't think that one was Cooper.

-K

keano44
September 10, 2003, 01:45 PM
Kaylee, that sounds like something Art would say.
:D

Brian Dale
September 10, 2003, 01:50 PM
just the link, because of the phrase, "not for publication" at the site:

http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/

One place where he discusses the topic is in Volume 10, No. 7, from June, 2002. His list includes:

a .22 rifle (he likes the Marlin 39, a spiritual descendant of Annie Oakley's rifles);

a .308/.30-'06 class rifle, for which he strongly recommends the Steyr Scout;

a compact .22 autoloading pistol;

a good-grade 12-gauge autoloading shotgun.

In a later issue (I don't have the issue number; sorry), I seem to recall that he remarks that one ought to add a good, centerfire defensive handgun to the list. He favors 1911s, to put it mildly.

{edited to add:} and TonyB, Col. Cooper has also remarked (for example, in Vol. 10, No. 2, Feb. 2002) that a .22 rimfire to the tear duct of an attacker can stop a fight. He advocates lots of practice!

Skunkabilly
September 10, 2003, 02:02 PM
Gunfyter is the website Happybob listed the one you mentioned or is there another as well? That's definitely going in the bookmarks...

BigG
September 10, 2003, 02:06 PM
Cooper is an absolute master of the English language. Cough... splutter... :uhoh: :rolleyes: Cooper THINKS he is an absolute master of the English language. I think he is ok but pretty stilted and self congratulatory to an obscene degree, but you have a right to your opinion... :uhoh:

bogie
September 10, 2003, 03:42 PM
Cooper is an absolute master of the English language.

We must disagree with the aforereferenced statement, and concur with the previous poster as to the degree of linguistic skill evidenced by the master of the combat .45...

keyhole
September 10, 2003, 04:02 PM
IIRC Jeff's thoughts were a .45 was better to carry.

I always told the other officers who questioned my carrying a 1911, condition 1, that " God carries a .45, and gave Moses a Gold Cup when he crossed the Red Sea."

Mike Irwin
September 10, 2003, 04:07 PM
I'll agree with the first three, but a Scout rifle?

I failed to see the overt purpose of it when Cooper was kicking the idea around in the early 1980s, and I still fail to see its overt purpose now.

Penforhire
September 10, 2003, 04:13 PM
I like his opinions about recoil, how any 13 year old girl should be able to handle a .308 and such. I like his writings as many of you do. But at least admit the writings show the obvious lack of an editor.

Quartus
September 10, 2003, 04:18 PM
I could really care less about the adventures of others down in Africa on safari...But maybe some of you guys like this stuff.



Perhaps more reading of writing of that caliber would help your use of the language.

If you "could really care less " then you must care SOME. It may be a little, it may be a lot, but if LESS is possible, then you care MORE than zero.


Focusing only on what is of OBVIOUS and immediate value is a good way to remain uneducated.

MacPelto
September 10, 2003, 04:20 PM
LOL

Bogie - that may be the best Cooperific writing that I have ever seen!

Archer
September 10, 2003, 04:33 PM
I was fortunate enough to have participated in a three hour conversation with Jeff last Friday at his home.

In my opinion his sharp mind, refined wit and cavernous body of knowledge isn't something to denigrate, but you are entitled to your opinion. I certainly enjoyed the time as much as anything else I did at Gunsite last week (including waxing a guy with Simunitions).

In the past Jeff has said that every household should have (needs) a .22 such as a Ruger Mark 2, and all else is more or less optional (needs as opposed to wants).

As for his preference for the .45, it comes from personal experience. All three men who Jeff has had to shoot in his past were instantly downed with single shots to COM from his .45 (the first with a Peacemaker, the other two with 1911s.) Facts tend to outweigh opinions, as well as reinforce them.

seeker_two
September 10, 2003, 04:49 PM
a good-grade 12-gauge autoloading shotgun.

IIRC, his ideal shotgun was an exposed-hammer double-barrel shotgun--or what he called a lupara ....

His reasoning was that you could keep it fully loaded w/o stressing the mainspring, and he liked the short overall length for "household" use.

Can't say that I disagree, since I have a Stoeger Coach Gun as my HD SGN (minus the exposed hammers, of course)...:D

Andrew Wyatt
September 10, 2003, 05:00 PM
I failed to see the overt purpose of it when Cooper was kicking the idea around in the early 1980s, and I still fail to see its overt purpose now.


It's an accurate, handy carbine. It's got lots of purposes.

Brian Dale
September 10, 2003, 05:16 PM
seeker_two, he did recommend the lupara as well, in a different essay. In my above post, I paraphrased the list found in Vol. 10, No. 7 of the Commentaries. He discusses the double with exposed hammers elsewhere.

I recommend that anybody bookmark the site, start at Vol. 1, No. 1, and go through the essays as they have time. They're full of nuggets that I wouldn't have picked up on my own. I think the essays are delightful, and I like his writing style.

BigG
September 10, 2003, 05:25 PM
Geez, when this guy passes we're going to be seeing the faithful quoting Coop. 10:7 ...and the anger of the Lord waxed hot and he broke out against the heathen of the caliber which may not speak its name... :eek: :uhoh:

Bob41081
September 10, 2003, 05:39 PM
KayLee

It wqas Kurt Saxon that made the statement you asked about.

Bob

Dean Speir
September 10, 2003, 06:55 PM
Cough... splutter... Cooper THINKS he is an absolute master of the English language. I think he is ok but pretty stilted and self congratulatory to an obscene degree... The style he has for years affected is "stilted." But he uses it very well, and if you've ever discoursed with him in person on anything, I think you'd be impressed with the breadth of his knowledge and his command of the language.

That said, he has become increasingly impossible over the past couple of years, so much to that he's not permitted to come onto the instructional portion of the ranch with a loaded firearm.
... but you have a right to your opinion... But then, you knew "holograph" and I didn't, so what do I know?!?

Skunkabilly
September 10, 2003, 07:42 PM
from the Commentaries linked above:
Being of the old school - the very old school - I wish to warn youthful readers against putting their faith in "gun writers." These people have a right to their opinions, but these opinions should not be taken as incontrovertible. As a youth I was led astray on a number of subjects and had to learn of my errors by personal field experience. The fact that a man "has been there and done that" does not necessarily mean that he knows what he is talking about. Read as much as you wish, but read critically, and then submit your conclusions to the test. This is not always possible, so read carefully, read critically, and then reserve judgment.
:)

BigG
September 10, 2003, 08:11 PM
Hell, Dean, as Will Rogers (I think) said, "We're all ignorant, jes on different subjects."

Skunk: Good quote. It looks like Cooper still has some lucidity left, thankfully!

swingset
September 11, 2003, 01:14 AM
Yeah Skunk, great quote. I'll follow Jeff's advice and assume he's full of it, even tho he's been there done that. ;)

Skunkabilly
September 11, 2003, 02:24 AM
You know, I don't know a lot about the man, a lot of what he says makes sense, and although I think it makes sense, not all of it applies to me, my situation, lifestyle, tastes, et cetera...I just try to keep an open mind and be healthily skeptical. :)

I really ought to order his books, I've been long overdue on that one.

Art Eatman
September 11, 2003, 09:20 AM
The thing that folks oughta remember about Cooper's comments is that there is no "one size fits all". In general, he is correct insofar as the situations he's seen. Somebody in a totally different set of scenarios has different needs.

The Scout rifle is great for Cooper's intended uses. It ain't the deal for urban SHTF. So what?

The 1911 works, as does the .45ACP cartridge. So do a lot of others. Hitting the target is a whole bunch more important than what you're using to do that job. IMO, Cooper and I are in accord about the aesthetics of the Colt vs. most others. If they all work, why not pick the one that appeals to your eye? I grant that after over 50 years of meddling with the Colt, I've found it sorta fits my hand real good...:)

As far as writing style, he's using that more formal phrasing common to the years of his education. I fail to see how that's a problem. At least the man knows how to spell and punctuate, which would be a whole new asset for some folks who post here. :D

Hey, anybody who thinks up the usage of "Hoplophobe" has just gotta be a good guy!!!

Art

Edward429451
September 11, 2003, 10:50 AM
Isn't it a shame when know it alls denigrate know a lots with narrow minded shortsightedness?;)

Focusing only on what is of OBVIOUS and immediate value is a good way to remain uneducated.

That was well said. Dynamic world ever changing means that some of the stuff that older people have said, will not neccessarily ring true for us today. Where are you guys books?:D When was your time?

You guys who bash cooper probably don't respect your grandparents either. So he's from another time. Jus cuz you don't inderstand him, or take him out of context don't make him wrong. Hell, with your logic, the founding fathers were wrong. Who's next, Art?:rolleyes:

I beleive there'll be a time when some of us will say...Who was that writer guy, what'd he used to say?...:banghead: Even if you read all his stuff and only get one bit of wisdom from it, you did good. I got more respect for cooper than the president...

BigG
September 11, 2003, 11:18 AM
I agree that one should respect one's elders; that goes without saying. I tend to speak in hyperbole, quite often, in fact. As Tamara might say, I'm a smart alec. However the Cooper hagiography does get a little out of hand at times, especially since he so eagerly fuels it himself in his self-satisfied musings. I respect Jeff Cooper for his knowledge and contributions to the art of shooting and scoff at him for his poor attempts at expressing himself verbally. As a public figure he opens himself to criticism and, I'm sorry, his attempts at writing are a target-rich environment to someone who can string more than three words together in a coherent sentence. :D Understand: the content is good, the expression of it is all wrong and just harrowing to anybody who might have a flair for words. I just imagine Cooper reading his stuff and smirking with satisfaction, "this guy is a genius, witty, talented, and good looking, too." :uhoh: :rolleyes:

0007
September 11, 2003, 11:34 AM
Thanks for posting the site. I had lost it when I moved.

Archer
September 11, 2003, 12:37 PM
Dean Spier said:

he has become increasingly impossible over the past couple of years, so much to that he's not permitted to come onto the instructional portion of the ranch with a loaded firearm.

Dean,

I didn't see YOU at Gunsite last week, but I certainly DID see Jeff visiting the 350 class on the Hanneken range (on his ATV) and that WAS a cocked and locked .45 auto on Jeff's hip.

Do you really mean to imply that Jeff's pistol was unloaded ? Or would you care to retract your comment ?

444
September 11, 2003, 12:55 PM
One thing to keep in mind about Cooper is that he has done nothing more than we do here. He talks about his experiences, he defends his choices in firearms, and he even gives his point of view on current events and events of history. Not any different than what we do here. It is just one man's opinion. It used to be that he was different in that he expressed his views to a worldwide audience when the average Joe couldn't do that. Now we do the same thing here everyday. And, a lot of the stuff I read on-line including this forum is stuff that doesn't match my own experience. In other words I disagree with it, sometimes vehemently. What makes him any worse ? At least with him we have some knowlege of his background and I dare say it is more extensive than most.

I also met Cooper a month or two ago on a Gunsite range and he had a cocked and locked 1911 on his hip. I didn't ask him if it was loaded or not. I will be there again this Monday for 556. I won't ask about it. If it is true, I don't want to know about it. If it isn't, it would be insulting.

Mike Irwin
September 11, 2003, 01:52 PM
"It's an accurate, handy carbine. It's got lots of purposes."

Wow, God knows there are NONE of those available!

All the carbines made today are heavy and inaccurate!

And lord knows those non-scout rifles are simply too cheap to get the job done, too.

If it doesn't cost $2,500 retail (Steyr), it's not a true Scout rifle.

Mike Irwin
September 11, 2003, 01:56 PM
"You guys who bash cooper probably don't respect your grandparents either."

Since WHEN is disagreeing with someone the same as not respecting them?

Since I disagree with that particular point, am I showing you disrespect by doing so?

Quite frankly, that's a crock o'crap.

And I say that with the UTMOST respect.

444
September 11, 2003, 02:11 PM
Again, one man's point of view.
After shooting rifles and hunting for many years, Cooper sat down and put together a criteria that he considered to be the perfect general purpose rifle. And, he had it built. Eventually due to his prominence in the shooting community he was able to get his "perfect" rifle mass produced by a major gun manufacturer. Obviously, not everyone agrees on what the perfect general purpose rifle is anymore than we agree about anything else.
For years I didn't think much about the scout rifle. It certainly wasn't mainstream. But recently I gave the matter some serious thought and I have come to the conclusion that he had a pretty good idea. Again, it is a general purpose rifle. The kind of rifle designed to do most jobs required of a rifle pretty good. I don't think it does any one job as well as a much more specialized rifle, but it is able to do all jobs fairly well. It is a rifle that was designed for the guy that might only want to own one rifle. It was a rifle designed to answer the age old question; "If I could only own one rifle....."

Like anyone who expresses their point of view to the public, a lot of people won't agree with everything they say. I personally don't see why this is any surprise.

Edward429451
September 11, 2003, 03:41 PM
Sorry Mike, you're prolly right on that. It seems like some posters who disagree with the man on one or two things want to throw a blanket of incredibility over the guy though.

I'll humbly retract that statement.;)

Mike Irwin
September 11, 2003, 04:11 PM
444,

I agree that the Scout is Col. Cooper's opinion. He's entitled to it. Lord knows some wonderful things have come out of one individuals firmly held opinions over the years.

I just really wonder, however, how valid the entire "If it ain't a Scout, it ain't :cuss:" line of thinking is, however, cause whether you like it or not, that's the aura that's grown around the entire Scout concept.

As in the previous post...

"It's an accurate, handy carbine."

It is. But so is the Remington Model 7, and similar offerings from a variety of other manufacturers.

Yet, somehow, since they haven't been blessed with nearly 20 years of reflexive writing on the subject, they're somehow insignificant entities?

Nathaniel Firethorn
September 11, 2003, 04:36 PM
Shooting Master John Gannaway points out that all you really need is a 22 and a 30-06. While I go along with that, I cannot avoid making a couple of perhaps unnecessary additions. First of all, the 308 is the ballistic twin of the 30-06 now with modern loadings, and even without the modern loadings the differences are too slight to matter. So your Steyr Scout in 308 will do what you need, unless you are a specialist. Certainly you need a 22 rifle, and there are scores of good ones around, but also you can probably establish need for a 22 pistol. This is most obvious if you live in the country. And then there is the matter of the shotgun. Some people really need a shotgun, both for home defense and for recreation. So I guess I would expand my minimum list to include a Steyr Scout, a Marlin 39 22 (particularly an older model without the cross-bolt safety), a compact 22 self-loading pistol, and a good grade self-loading 12-gauge shotgun. That is four guns, hardly enough to satisfy an aficionado, but certainly enough for others. Living as I have all my life amongst shooters, I cannot think of anyone who owns only four guns. On the other hand I think that when you get up into the hundreds you are overstating the case.Why self-loading? He doesn't justify it anywhere nearby...

- pdmoderator

El Tejon
September 11, 2003, 05:26 PM
Mike, as with pistols, Cooper has used and written about many different rifles. The Remington M7 and 600 and the Ruger RSI both served as proto-Scouts.

As Uncle Jeff says, as a concept, his "Scout" is outstanding, but not without forerunners which he has long acknowledged or shortcomings which he acknowledges. As well, it is NOT the only and only rifle, but a general purpose rifle for those well-versed in riflecraft.

There is no more aura around the Scout concept than around the P7, Glock or 1911 pistol. As Cooper has written time after time, the gun is the tool, the man is the weapon.

Uncle Jeff knows what he is talking about and is vocal about saying it. This rubs people the wrong way sometimes and delights others. So be it.:D

pd, Uncle Jeff after pioneering instruction of the defensive (other than recreational) shotgun came to the conclusion that the self-loading shotgun had an edge over the slide-action weapon.

Mike Irwin
September 11, 2003, 05:36 PM
"Mike, as with pistols, Cooper has used and written about many different rifles."

The rifle is different from the concept for the rifle, and it's the concept that has formed the ad nauseum of 20 years worth of columns.

I know the Model 7 was a scout prototype, but it apparently just wasn't scouty enough to be a scout, so he had to continue to scout for something that he could turn into a scout... :barf:

BigG
September 11, 2003, 05:50 PM
There is no more aura around the Scout concept than around the P7, Glock or 1911 pistol. As Cooper has written time after time, the gun is the tool, the man is the weapon. Well said, El Teej.

The Steyr scout's biggest selling point to me is the forward mounted scope. Steyr built an aluminum receiver/rail/handguard that allows the forward mounted scope which is really very nice imho. The difficulty with pseudoscouts, if you will, is putting that for'ard scope on. Once you have tried that it is a mile ahead of a conventional mounting. Added to which is the synthetic stock with integral bipod. It is altogether a nice package and mine mounts with the ease and authority of my favorite shotgun. No, it doesn't answer every question for everybody, but it is a pretty good stab at it, now that I tried it. :D

Secondly, it is a Steyr, it looks funny, and it costs as much as two or three tricked out domestic products and some people can't handle that. :neener: The value of a Steyr is pretty high to me. It is like driving a Vette compared to a Bel Air. I learned that when I sold my mountain carbine that kept 5 in 5/8". I was pretty dumb to sell it but I did. I won't sell this one!

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