.357 148gr HBWCs


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Quoheleth
September 25, 2008, 02:40 PM
I found a couple hundred of these bulk Remington HBWCs in my cabinet last week and was thinking about loading them up to shoot. Checking through Lee's manual, there are loads suggested for the three powders I have in the cabinet - Bullseye, Universal and Titegroup. Any of them be better (better means what you want it to mean) than another one for mild target loads?

One thing I did notice...the Bullseye and Universal loads are much higher pressure (40% more) than the Titegroup load in the "max load" category, so I assume that carries over, more or less, to the starting data. Would the higher pressure start-load be better for the HBWC bullet to seal it? I'm not worried about blowing the center out of the bullet, as I'm using the starting loads and plan to keep these as soft shooting as possible.

Q

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ReloaderFred
September 25, 2008, 03:02 PM
Bullseye has been the standard for accuracy with 148 grain HBWC bullets for many, many years. I've shot thousands of them when I was shooting PPC matches regularly.

Just make sure you don't double charge a case, as it can be catastrophic.

Hope this helps.

Fred

rcmodel
September 25, 2008, 03:09 PM
Lee's manual doesn't get very specific about whether or not they are 148 Hollow-base, or 148 solids.

The solid base WC can be loaded way hotter then the HBWC.

There is a chance of skirt separation leaving a skirt in the barrel, or forcing cone blow-out if you load HBWC very hot.

Make absolutely 100% sure you are looking at HBWC load data, and not DEWC or BBWC data!

rcmodel

Quoheleth
September 25, 2008, 03:19 PM
Lee's manual doesn't get very specific about whether or not they are 148 Hollow-base, or 148 solids.

Right, that's why I was asking.

There is a chance of skirt separation leaving a skirt in the barrel, or forcing cone blow-out if you load HBWC very hot.

Been warned about that; in fact (and maybe it was even you, remodel) who suggested to me a year ago that I save these until I have had some practice reloading solid bullets, just to avoid that very thing from happening.

I printed off the various pages from these powder manufacturers; I'll cross-check them for HBWC loads, just to be sure.

Q

SlamFire1
September 25, 2008, 03:26 PM
A common target load with the 148 LWC, hollow based or not, was 2.7 grains Bullseye. The bullet was seated deeply in the case with very little of the bullet sticking out. And a light crimp was applied. This load is very accurate and very mild.

I have shot it in various pistols over the years, I thought the data might give you an idea of the velocities you will get out of different barrels.

I believe this load was used by the Bulleye shooters used a semiautomatic Smith and Wesson. I don’t remember the model, but got to shoot one. The pistol was set up to shoot this load, and it shot very well. I think it is a collector’s item now.

I don't consider a 148 LSWC a self defense round, even though I have read articles where people hot loaded the thing and turned the hollow base around. It is at its best as a light target bullet.



S&W Airweight 2” barrel

148 LWC 2.7 grs Bullseye thrown Mixed Brass WSP
18-Mar-07 T = 52 F
Ave Vel = 611.6
Std Dev = 22.04
ES 75.92
High 648.1
Low 572.2
N = 25

M66-2 4” barrel

148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
17-Oct-93 T = 65-70F
Ave Vel = 704 fps
Std Dev = 18
ES = 57
High = 742
Low = 685
N = 6

Colt Python , 6" Barrel

148 gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases CCI500
24 Sept 1999 T = 78 F
Ave Vel = 710
Std Dev = 18
ES 72.02
High 746.1
Low 674
N = 33
shot fine at 25 yards, no leading, light recoil

dmickey
September 25, 2008, 04:15 PM
The Smith and Wesson semi-automatic is the Model 52. I know, I have one!! :D

bluetopper
September 25, 2008, 09:05 PM
I have a Model 52 too.:) It is a beautiful, shooting machine.;)

It never sees a hot load. Try 2.8 - 3.0gr of Bullseye

joneb
September 26, 2008, 12:10 PM
Will you be loading the HBWCs in 38spl or 357mag cases ?

Quoheleth
September 26, 2008, 07:22 PM
I have a whole pot-wad of .38 cases, so I'll probably go that route.

Yeah, I know it makes a ring in the chambers of my GP100 & Sp101, but I'll deal with it.

Q

the foot
September 26, 2008, 08:08 PM
Bullseye in .38 special cases, light loads, is a great all-around starting point.

20nickels
October 13, 2008, 12:26 AM
Does anybody have a good starting point for Bullseye and target wadcutters in a .357 case? Should I just add 10% powder to the .38 Spl data?

dmickey
October 13, 2008, 12:01 PM
Did you ever think of buying two (or more) loading manuals? Speer does list loads for the .357 Magnum and the hollow base wadcutters. You shouldn't depend on the web (except maybe for the bullet and/or powder manufacturers web sites) for loading data. Too many of us with bad memories and even worse typing skills! :)

20nickels
October 13, 2008, 01:45 PM
Okay, so does anybody with a good memory and typing skills know?

Walkalong
October 13, 2008, 02:04 PM
Would the higher pressure start-load be better for the HBWC bullet to seal it?

It takes very little pressure to seal those dead soft HBWC's. Almost any sane load will do it.

Bullseye is a proven winner with HBWC's.

If you are worried about accidentally double charging Bullseye, try some 700X. It is much bulkier and works great with lead at low pressures and the resulting low velocities of target loads. It is my favorite low pressure powder (.38 Spl, .38 Spl loads in .357 brass, .44 Spl, .45 Colt), although Red Dot and American Select do very well also.

If you have or can "bum" some 700X from a buddy, give it a try with those HBWC's in .38 or .357 brass. I think you will like the results.

I can PM you some data if you are interested.

rcmodel
October 13, 2008, 02:08 PM
Speer #10 lists 148 HBWC Starting/Max loads as:

.357 Case:
Green Dot = 4.0 - 4.4
Red Dot = 3.0 - 3.4
700x = 2.9 - 3.2
WW231 = 3.4 - 3.8
Bullseye = 3.0 - 3.3

.38 Spl. Case, (Revolver loads):
Red Dot = 2.7 - 3.0
700x = 2.6 - 2.9
WW231 = 3.0 - 3.3
Bullseye = 2.8 - 3.1

rcmodel

Galil5.56
October 13, 2008, 02:09 PM
Okay, so does anybody with a good memory and typing skills know?

Sure, this data is from an Alliant manual Circa 1995. First load they list as "Target", the second a pretty snappy SD load.

148 LWC OAL 1.330 2.8 grains 780 fps 10,000 psi

148 LWC OAL 1.330 5.7 grains 1,475 fps 34,000 psi

It does not say what kind of WC, it simply lists "LWC", so if you plan on pushing them much over 800 fps, do not go with a hollow base WC. 800 or so fps and above means a solid WC. I would start at 3 grains for either type, and no way would I get anywhere near their max charge weight. Alliant IMO and experience treats some cast lead/lead bullets too much like jacketed, and their data is too hot. I would think 4 grains as a practical max with a solid WC would fill about any need a WC could do, and if it won't, time for a good 150/158 grain lead SWC.

20nickels
October 13, 2008, 09:50 PM
Tks. I was wanting to get my boolits closer to the rifling to start with instead of always using the 38 Spl cases. I didn't think the loads would be radically different, I just like to bounce things off of the THR Think Tank. This should get me a little more accuracy if I do my part.

GP100man
October 13, 2008, 10:39 PM
there`s not much difference in volume in modern 38 spl & 357 mag brass, the mag case head is thicker & i doubt they have different specs for head thickness just for a shorter case .
some older stuff will be a big difference though.

GP100man

loneviking
November 9, 2008, 10:49 PM
On these HBWC's, does anybody have a picture showing how deep you seat the bullet? Sorry if this sounds dumb, but I keep hearing 'flush'--which to me means 'flat'...and that doesn't sound right. The HBWC's I have are Speers with three rings and I'm guessing you seat to the third ring?

And then, the crimp is supposed to be a medium. I still don't understand the crimp instructions for the RCBS dies. Can somebody shed some light on how to crimp and what to look for when using the RCBS dies?

Thanks!

dmickey
November 9, 2008, 11:03 PM
For a typical .38 Special revolver, you don't have to worry so much about seating depth. It only has to be seated flush for the semi-automatic pistols chambered for this round, like the Smith & Wesson Model 52. Just load them and shoot them! :)

loneviking
November 10, 2008, 03:45 AM
For a typical .38 Special revolver, you don't have to worry so much about seating depth. It only has to be seated flush for the semi-automatic pistols chambered for this round, like the Smith & Wesson Model 52. Just load them and shoot them!

Thanks Dennis, things are becoming a bit clearer. I'm working from a Speer #10, and they list two HBWC's, one with a ballistic coefficient of .050 for which the test loads were fired from a 6" S&W model 14 K-38. The second HWBC had a ballistic coefficient of .052 and this one notes that the bullet has to be seated flush to function in the model 52.

I guess I'll just seat 'em till' they look right, fire away and see what happens! BTW, I'm using a Colt Peacekeeper .357 with a 6" barrel.

chriske
November 10, 2008, 04:26 AM
20nickels :

This formula has worked perfectly for me as long as I use:
- lead bullets (148 gr HBWC or DEWC, 158 gr LSWC or LRN)
- light to medium loads (not over 850 fps)
- fast powders (Bullseye, Vectan BA10, Vihtavuori N 310, Hodgdon HP 38, Winchester W-231, PCL 531)

loneviking
November 10, 2008, 05:53 AM
This formula has worked perfectly for me as long as I use:
- lead bullets (148 gr HBWC or DEWC, 158 gr LSWC or LRN)
- light to medium loads (not over 850 fps)
- fast powders (Bullseye, Vectan BA10, Vihtavuori N 310, Hodgdon HP 38, Winchester W-231, PCL 531)
Today 04:45 AM


Thanks! Yeah, I've figured this forumla out, but my problem is that I have a load for the .148's using the .357 cases and Unique. Now, if I could just go backward, but Unique just doesn't burn fast enough. Oh well, now to choose between W-231 and Bullseye....

Ala Dan
November 11, 2008, 07:00 PM
2.7 grains of Bullseye, would be my recommended load for the 148 grain
HBWC in .38 Special cases. I have NEVER loaded this bullet in a .357
magnum case; cuz when driven at higher velocities, barrel leading
becomes a serious problem~! :scrutiny: ;)

loneviking
November 11, 2008, 07:06 PM
Thanks Dan. My #10 Speer gives a .357 load of 3.9 gr. of Unique resulting in 950fps. out of a 6 inch S&W. That shouldn't lead too badly, but I'll probably use the .38 loads more.

rcmodel
November 12, 2008, 01:07 PM
We must have very different Speer 1979 #10 manuals.

Mine doesn't list Unique at all for either .38 Spl. or .357 Mag with HBWC bullets.

It only lists Unique in .38 Special using the 148 grain BBWC.
4.5 grains gives 868 FPS, and 5.1 gives 981.

The .357 HBWC loads all top out at a little over 800 FPS, and there is a warning to not exceed those velocities with HBWC bullets.

Both the .38 & .357 data was tested in Ruger Security Six revolvers, not S&W.

Very curious indeed!

Speer #13 does list Unique in .38 Spl, using 4.5 - 5.1 grains, but only with a BBWC,
Not with a HBWC.
Those loads were tested in a S&W Model 14.

Sunray
November 12, 2008, 01:09 PM
"...a good starting point for Bullseye and target wadcutters in a .357 case?..." Use regular .38 Special cast bullet data. However, 2.5 to 2.8 grains of Bullseye will give you an accurate target load. No crimp. Work up the load for your revolver. The same powder charge works with either a DEWC or HBWC. Shot bullseye for eons using .357 cases and .38 data.
"...just seat 'em till' they look right..." Seat 'em flush.
"...NEVER loaded this bullet in a .357 magnum case; cuz when driven at higher velocities..." The case has nothing to do with resulting velocity. Don't use 'em with .357 data though.

loneviking
November 12, 2008, 08:53 PM
We must have very different Speer 1979 #10 manuals.

Mine doesn't list Unique at all for either .38 Spl. or .357 Mag with HBWC bullets.

It only lists Unique in .38 Special using the 148 grain BBWC.
4.5 grains gives 868 FPS, and 5.1 gives 981.

The .357 HBWC loads all top out at a little over 800 FPS, and there is a warning to not exceed those velocities with HBWC bullets.

Both the .38 & .357 data was tested in Ruger Security Six revolvers, not S&W.

Very curious indeed!

Speer #13 does list Unique in .38 Spl, using 4.5 - 5.1 grains, but only with a BBWC,
Not with a HBWC.
Those loads were tested in a S&W Model 14.


Hmmm, O.K., let's take a second look and make sure I'm not getting both senile AND dyslexic!

I have in my hot little hands a Speer Reloading Manual, Number 10, for Rifle and Pistol. Mine lists 5 printings of this manual with the last being in April of 1984:
1st printing, Oct. 1979
2nd printing, Feb. 1980
3rd printing, Feb. 1981
4th printing, May 1982
5th printing, April 1984.

That's probably what the difference is, but let's continue on...

On page 359, in the .38 special section, is the load table for the .358 Dia. Speer, 148 gr. HBWC. The table lists two Bullseye loads:

2.8 resulting in 741 fps
3.1 resulting in 799 fps

And yes, tested in a Model 14.

Page 365 has the load table for the .357, and you're right! No Unique, Bullseye is still there with a load of 3.0 for 733 fps, and 3.3 for 806 fps. The warning is still there saying that bullet deformation may occur which might result in gun damage. The gun used for testing was a Ruger Security 6!

So, I stand corrected! And I have to get some Bullseye powder as all I have is Unique....:cuss:

slimshot
November 12, 2008, 09:23 PM
For years I have been loading my old DEWC's in .357 cases. All of my .357 cases get prepped with Winchester small pistol magnum primers for uniformity, including the ones for the DEWC's. I load with 3.0 gr of Bullseye and seat the bullet to the third ring. They are great light loads in a revolver, but beleive it or not, they worked out best in my Marlin .357 lever 1894! They feed fine because of the extra length, and shoot small clusters of sharp cut holes at 50 yards. (A REAL small cluster at 25 yards!) I don't mean to start another debate about mag primers, it's just that I've never switched from them for my 2400 powder loads, and I didn't want to mix up any standard-primed cases in that caliber. Just my two cents....:D

loneviking
November 13, 2008, 12:08 AM
No debate from me as that is what I use as well. Third ring? I thought so but everybody keeps saying 'flush' and that ain't flush! Looks like 3.0 to 3.3 gr. of Bullseye should do the trick!

rcmodel
November 13, 2008, 01:45 PM
I am of the opinion that all 148 grain WC should be seated flush for use in the S&W Model 52 autoloader, because that is all they will feed.

I seat them out slightly for revolver use, because I feel that gives the exposed bullet a slightly better chance of centering itself in the chamber throats.

But I couldn't prove it one way or another!

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