[Cosmoline]

I'm currently sleeping in a trailer on five semi-remote acres near the Susitna river, taking care of a kennel full of dogs. Bear activity in the area is light, since they are heading for the hills. Still, the threat is there esp. around springtime. No matter how much you clean up, there's always going to be enough scent of dog food around for a bear to pick up miles away.

I've got my eye out for a well used CZ ZKK in .375 H&H, but until the money train comes back in, I've got these basic choices to deal with three AM visitations

Mossberg 500 12 Ga. w/ slug barrel. I know little about slug ballistics. Which would be best against bear?

K-31 with 2x scout scope, firing a cartridge right in the .308 range.

Mosin-Nagant 91-30 with 1 1/2x scout scope, firing a cartridge also in the .308/ .30'06 range.

Open to suggestions.

[Pendragon]

Count me way way low on the expert scale but this is my take:

1. If you are close enough to a bear that you have to shoot it, you are way way to close.

2. a rifle and optics would be cumbersome with a bear in your face.

3. a SG slug hits HARD and makes a BIG HOLE and I think is more inclined to get the bears attention.

I would go with an semi auto SG - short as you can, maybe load some double ought first, then some slugs - assuming you can shoot those in an auto (I dont know)

I would also get a good revolver as backup - as big a revolver as you can muster.

I lived up there for 5 years - in Wasilla and read more than enough bear stories to realize that luck is a huge factor in survival. Some people with rifles got 'et, read about one guy that killed on with a pocket knife.

I think the bears are going to keep their disance with the dogs, but be vigilant.

[WYO]

The 12 gauge with slugs is all you'll ever need for that application. Buy the .375 because you want it, not because you "need" it.

[Bigjake]

No expert here at all, but from all i've read, i'd say get some of the deep penentrating bullets in the .308 and ventilate that thar bar with it!

[Preacherman]

The only slugs I'd recommend for defence against something as big as a bear would be the Rottweil Brenneke slugs - they're made MUCH harder than typical US "Foster"-type slugs, and therefore don't expand at all, reserving all their energy for deep penetration. (After all, if you're making a .729" hole, who needs further expansion???) Also, their penetration falls off dramatically over medium to long range - I'd reserve their use to less than 25-30 yards.

Overall, I think either of your rifles would be a better choice for all-round use. They are effective at a much longer range, and with the right bullet (preferably a heavy, deep-penetrating type) will deliver more energy on target than the shotgun.

My personal choice for home defence against bears would be a lever-action Marlin .45-70 carbine stoked with Garrett Hammerheads. This is short and compact enough for confined spaces, but hits very hard indeed. It can also handle shots out to 100 yards or more if the need arises. Its lever action is faster to manipulate than a bolt-action weapon, too, in case rapid repeat shots are required.

[Al Thompson]

Second PM on the slug choice. I'd avoid buckshot like crazy. It's OK for deer or people, but worthless on big stuff. H&H and I discovered that it sucks and we've posted a couple of good threads on the subject.

May want to think about your placement of the guns. If a bear decides to drop by for a snack, are your guns close and accessible?

[Joe Demko]

Are you planning on defending yourself or the dogs? If yourself, I think you may find toting a long gun around every moment of the day will get to be tiresome. The rifle or shotgun you left on the rack isn't much good if you actually get face to face with a bruin. Do you own any kind of handgun in a serious caliber?

[Dr.Rob]

A shotgun full of slugs is fast and accurate at short range. Bennke slugs are tough, but foster slugs will do the deed if need be. Reloading a second shot is a LOT faster than any bolt gun you listed. Also a flashlight mount is readily available on a shotgun, something you'll want when going outside at 3am armed for bear.

Practice with them.

None of those 'reduced recoil tactical' nonsense rounds either. You want one ounce MAX dram at a minimum. 1.25 oz. If you are shooting a 3 inch shell. Yes, it kicks like a mule. Winchester makes an accurate inexpensive slug available at wal-mart in bulk, or any mail order house (though shipping is a bear):D

[Cosmoline]

Thanks for the advice! I suspect buckshot might not be up to snuff. Whatever I choose will be my go-to gun. I'm going to post in the shotgun section for more ideas.

[H&Hhunter]

I recomend a shotgun using 8 shot or 6 shot for really big bears 10,000Lbs or larger. Also I would recomend a larger high power scope for any close in dangerous game work something like a Bushnell banner on 14X.

Anytime I'm in bear country I also like to wear some "big ole sow in heat" scent either that or "oduer de rotten dead meat or fish" that way the little bears will stay away and you only have to mess with the really big aggressive ones.

As a final note it's always best to find a young grizz cub before entering the bush and drag it along by it's ears to make it scream that way your sure to find out where the momma bears live.

But in all seriousness either of your mentioned chices would work. And a .375H&H in the CZ configuration is a good piece of property. It's a do it all Alsakan rifle. If you can get one do it!!!

[Atticus]

Do I sense just a TINY bit of sarcasm there? :D

[Bigjake]

hehe, next time in bear country i gota try that "drag em along by his ears" method.

[Keith]

Preacherman,

I think you're confused about what constitutes "bear defense". If you shoot a bear at 100 yards (out of season or without a permit), you'll find yourself paying a huge fine. If it's a brown bear, you may a end up spending about 90 days in a very small room with "Bubba".

Keith

[Preacherman]

Keith, what about a situation where you shoot a bear at close range, and he turns and runs off? Surely you're legally required to finish him/her off, even at 100+ yards, rather than have a wounded bear at large?

[Keith]

Good Point!

Keith

[JShirley]

With those choices, I'd take the Mossy 500 w/ good slugs. With a midling high-power cartridge in the .308 power range, I'd take good quick repeat shots w/ 3" mag slugs for close-range defense instead. If you had more effective rifle choices (.35 Whelen/.338 and up), might be different.

[Futo Inu]

The only thing more annoying than those who leave their location blank in their profile are those who put some smart-alecky comment under location. Thankfully, you've not done the latter. :)

[stevelyn]

Cos,

I would recommend the short barrel shotgun stoked with the Brenneke slugs since any bear defense is going to be a fast, short ranged affair.
In July I had to kill a 3 yo brown bear in town that didn't respond to the usual methods of discouragement. I shot him from about 40 paces through both shoulders with a Brenneke slug (never did find it). In my experience, the results were spectacular in that the bear dropped where he stood and rolled to his side never to get up again. I was able to walk up to him for the coop dee gracy with a load of 00 Buck under the chin and out the base of the skull, but it wasn't necessary.
My usual method of loading when I know I have to kill one is a Brenneke for the first shot (placed carefully), a 00Buck to break up a possible charge followed by Brennekes to capacity. However I do a lot of loading and unloading due to the particular situation which includes using #4 steel shot loads to further discourage retreating bears.

Futu Inu;

The Susitna River flows out of the Alaska Range and empties into Cook Inlet near Anchorage. It one of three major river vallies in the area.

[Art Eatman]

See there, Futo? You can get all edjumacated on geography at THR!

:D, Art

[TallPine]

Futo:

The Susitna River also has a tributary called the "Little Susitna"

Locally, they are (or were, at least) known as the "Big Sue" and the "Little Sue"

So Cos could have really confused you and said he lived next to Big Sue :D

Now you know more that you ever wanted to know ....

[Keith]

Actually, he was trying to be geographically friendly because if he was just writing to an Alaskan audience he would have said he lived in "Mat-Su" - the Matanuska/Susitna region. That's the usual term used to describe that area.

By the way, for my money the most impressive day-trip out of Anchorage is to take the Glenn Highway (a two lane blacktop) out of Palmer and follow the Matanuska river up into the high country. You'll go up into mountains that dwarf anything found in the rockies. There's glaciers and ice fields up there larger than some states, and you'll see moose, dall sheep and caribou once you get up near the pass and beyond. There's a mountain up there called "Sheep Mountain" where you might see as many as 100 sheep at a time. You can see all of that from your car.

Most Anchorage tourists get directed down into the Kenai or up to Denali which are (by Alaska standards) "touristy". I just think that's a shame because to see Alaska you have to get off the tourist trail, and that drive is as impressive as anything in North America.

Keith

[RandyB]

I'd opt for the 12 ga. with slugs over any .308 for bear at close self-defense range. Of course if I was hunting bear I'd lean more towards a 30-06 over the 12.

[iluv308]

Hi,
I'm a new guy and in fact an alien from Canada....how did Charlton Heston put it...."Canada 'lies' to the north of us.....
I do know something about bear protection ( I operate a 200 square mile trapline near the Yukon) and have instructed several courses dealing with that subject. My comments are based on a 'pool of knowledge' gleaned from numerous bear attacks and encounters in British Columbia and Alberta....A 12 guage pump remington/mossberg c/w rifle sights is a fine tool.....forget 00buck and other such sillyness, stick to slugs and brennekes are the best.....50 yards MAX for this set-up and make sure you practice on a target running at you full tilt....we use a 5 gallon oil bucket with a 50 yard rope.....you start with and empty chamber and the buddy runs with the rope in a fashion that causes the bucket- bear to 'run' at ya.....2 outa 3 three hits is minimum....With this type of course of fire one learns that a scope is a handicap as is a bolt action rifle....dont get me wrong, iluv my 300 mag and my 350 remington but for defensive bear shooting I like a lever or pump....To me the ultimate setup for this kinda work would be a tanker garand in 35 whelen with barnes x bullets...open the rear peep up a bit for fast sighting and have the rig rustproof finished...
This rig would not be legal in our Country but I can always dream....
regards.......i use a stainless guide gun and HOT hoads...ouch:banghead:

[iluv308]

has anyone used a handgun to stop a bear....we can't carry handguns in the Canadian Wilderness.....i was curious if anyone has used a 9mm/45/10mm in a pinch......thanks.....all my information centers around longguns....

[The Janitor]

My grandfather shot a black bear at point blank range with one of those rubber slugs which was in his yard. It was enough to scare it off.

[Shawnee]

No doubt the 12ga.

Brenneke slugs are a notably better than the "Forester" types.

Will add that Capstick favored #3 Buck when facing wounded/annoyed lions in deep grass but a big Brown is probably "two scoops" of lion.

An authoratative handgun would be a nice supplement.

:cool:

[TCB in TN]

Have never shot a bear before but have seen 1st hand what a 12ga slug does to a big hog and it is impressive. Being charged at close range is NOT a good thing and it is very hard to make hits, so a quick repeater (lever, or pump preferred) is important IMHO. I would also say that practice with whatever you choose would be at least as important as what you choose.

[H&Hhunter]

Will add that Capstick favored #3 Buck when facing wounded/annoyed lions in deep grass but a big Brown is probably "two scoops" of lion.


Shawnee,

Capstick did a heck of a lot more witting than he did hunting. In fact I'd be shocked if he ever went after a wounded lion in real life at all. You would be hard pressed find a PH today whom recommends buckshot on lions. That is a really good way to get yourself killed. It has been proven time and again that buck shot and lions are a REALLY BAD idea. In fact using it on leopards is starting to be less common due to failures to stop. Of all the PH's I've hunted with and talked with to the man recommend an iron sighted heavy rifle preferably in a double when following wounded lion.

How exactly did this 5 year old thread come back to life anyhow? ;)

I've met very few experienced bear guides as in none, who would consider carrying a shotgun with any type of ammo including slugs as a back up weapon on bears.

Most of them carry either a .338 or a .375H&H or larger. I've seen a few .458's and .416's and even heard of one who carries a .505Gibbs.

[Shawnee]

Hi H&H...


I don't know if Capstick ever saw a lion or not but I have no reason to doubt what you're saying. He wouldn't be the first "paper lion hunter". I've heard several times that Kenneth Anderson was a 24k fraud so anything is possible.

To be fair - I don't know how the SSG compares to buck made here but it still may be a moot point. I once "attacked" a junk car ( a 50's model with real steel) with a Remington 1100 and Brenneke slugs and I know it would have to be a very healthy animal to withstand that kind of punishment.

I would sure agree with the double rifle. Personally, I would much rather have a double rifle in... say... .300 Win Mag. or even a 7 Mag. than a bolt-gun in .338 or .375. Even Better yet - YOU go after the Brown and I'll watch from the plane. :D

:cool:

[koja48]

I've carried a shottie with slugs for years & can attest to the fact that it works. A Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70 isn't a bad option, either. Up close & personal, quick handling/quick pointing authoritative power is the key defensive element.

[H&Hhunter]

I've carried a shottie with slugs for years & can attest to the fact that it works.

Koja,

Are you a guide using a shotgun on dangerous game back up?

[Shawnee]

The 7/8oz (387gr (+/-) slug has about the same energy at 50yds. that the 325gr. "Leverlution" .45/70 load has at 200yds.

No doubt the .45/70 slug is sturdier and will give more penetration - but there is the wild card factor of caliber (specifically frontal surface area) - the slug being roughly .70 caliber as opposed to the .45 caliber of the rifle.

Be that as it may - it would seem penetration would be the better choice assuming the shooter could handle the .45/70 well.

:cool:

[koja48]

Was a guide in Montana years ago. Unfortunately, had cause to use the shotgun on one Griz and several black bears, but it is an effective stopper & quick to bring on-target . . . never needed more than two shots (and <6-yards when confronting & finally stopping a hell-bent-on-destruction Griz is way TOO close & prompts a timely underwear change), but the repeatability factor is most comforting. Good slugs are effective. Don't know that I'd consider them as a viable option on some of the critters you are so fortunate to pursue, however, H.

[koja48]

The 7/8oz (387gr (+/-) slug has about the same energy at 50yds. that the 325gr. "Leverlution" .45/70 load has at 200yds.

And since "me or it" situations occur inside of skivvies-tightening range, that explains my preference for the shottie . . . big & slow arriving with authority. But then again, I carry a most-reliable 1911 with 230-grain insurance riders when 2-legged threats are a potential.

[H&Hhunter]

3.5" Brenekes out of a 12ga are some serious medicine. And a Marlin using 500gr Garret loads would be pretty tough to beat as well for a bear stopper. But I've got to tell you a short .375H&H or .458 win or Lott with good large ring aperture sights is pretty tough to get past as well especially when the guy using it knows how to run a bolt a gun. It all boils down to an adequate caliber and the ability to use it in your chosen platform. Training familiarity and comfort level have a lot more to do with this than caliber in the real world.

Koja how close were you to the park when you had your Grizzly trouble? It seems to me that I hear a lot about problems with Grizz in the south west corner down by Yellowstone.

[koja48]

Quite some distance NW (certainly beyond normal Griz territorial ramblings). Where I grew-up, hunted, & guided (east of the Bitterroot country), there was always a resident Griz population, plus, unbeknown to the locals, the Fed park service used to relocate problem bears in that general area on occasion. I feel fortunate to have seen my share of the big bears & feel bad that I had to stop one. She was welcome to the elk . . . I just wasn't inclined to be on either the menu or the fight card & she wasn't inclined to let me back out of the encounter. I actually had hairier encounters with black bears & more frequently, to boot. Some day I'll own a Lott or a .375 . . . don't have a real need for one, but the collection just isn't complete . . . yet. Should you ever hunt elk around the fringes of the park, be aware. There are hunter/bear encounters in that neck of the woods on an all-too-frequent basis. You are spot-on re: adequate caliber, ability, familiarity, and practice, however.

[ArmedBear]

I take it you're referring to the Grizzly/Brown/Kodiak class of bears, not Black Bears.

The CZ Safari rifles I've held are heavy suckers. That's nice for the recoil, but not for defense.

As others have said, if you have to shoot the bear, you're too close. Of course, that also means that you are handicapped by having a big, heavy rifle.

I'd lean towards a 12 Gauge slug gun with a shortish barrel and a good recoil pad. Not pleasant to shoot, but for defensive applications, it would seem to be ideal. Heavy slug, big hole, quick handling, plenty accurate enough for iron sights at 20 yards or less.

A .308 might just piss off the bear.

[H&Hhunter]

A Factory CZ 550 is a club. I specialize in fast handling short DG rifles and I own several of them. A heavy caliber rifle can and should be set to be fast handling rifle. The perfect balance in an accurate and lightening quick rifle is a piece of art but it isn't all that difficult to obtain with a bit of knowledge. After all the British gun makers have been doing it for quite some time now and they have proven themselves beyond a shadow of a doubt when it comes to capable DG rifles.

[caribou]

I'm a bit North of ya, sitting in Noorvik on Kobuk river, and I have shot dozens of Bears, both Black and Brown with my Mosin Nagants.
My M-39 is wonderfull with Czeck LPS.

Bears HATE dogs, I have never heard of a Bear in a dog yard, ever, and theres still plenty of dogteams up this way, inna Arctic.

Youe net, your cache, your house, but never a dog lot or a building near a doglot.

The dogs will let you know whan a Bear is around, and you will have time to use the Mosin at a distance...if your jumpe'd, youll have to use what you have.....

Leave a dog loose if your worried, though the others will bark and howl to be loosend too.:banghead:

The Big Su is a Beautifull River, Ive floated it for kicks and Beer before. Brrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

regards!
Chip

[Harve Curry]

No expert here either. At 3 in the moring I'd opt for the slugs in the shotgun, after shooting some for function and point of impact. Have fun, to cold up there for me.

[BigBuckMaster]

i have been Kodiak, polar, grizzly, Silvertip, black, and brown bear hunting here in the USA/CSA and in Russia, so i know a thing or two bout bears.

my bear defense gun is a 870 12 ga loaded with either #000 or #1, due to flat land and thick brush, respectively. in the many times i was in bear country, i only had to use a kill shot once on a large Silvertip sow. i did kill a black bear here in La with a slug, but i was bear hunting at that time.

my vote is for the shotty. of course, if your are bear HUNTING, bring a large caliber handgun (ie .44, .45 LC, .460 S&W, .500 S&W) either in simi or double action revolver along with your rifle/bow/muzzel loader/crossbow.

if you do use a shotty, for loads, i reccomend either a expanding slug or #000, #00, or #1 shot. i like the #000 and #1 cause the #000 had 8 .36 balls, and the #1 has 12 .32 balls.

just my $1/50

[Harve Curry]

Ben Lilly used a knife of his own making, sharp on both sides. He'd reach around the bear and stab him, the bear would bite at what just poked him, but Lilly would be just out of the way. He considered it more sportting then just shooting the creature.

[H&Hhunter]

Kodiak, polar, grizzly, Silvertip, black, and brown bear

BigBuckMaster,

Could you please give me a little lesson here.

I was not aware that a Silvertip and Grizzly were a separate species. I always was under the impression that a Silver tip was simply a color phase of the Grizzly family. And that a Kodiak was a brown bear that happened to live on Kodiak Island. I was unaware that they were also a separate species?

Thanks

[H&Hhunter]

I'll be dag nabbed....

http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/notebook/biggame/brnbear.php

I guess you can learn something new every day. Kodiaks are in fact a separate sub species of Brown bear..

But I am still trying to figure out the difference between a silver tip and a "Grizz". Is there an actual sub species or is it a colloquial thing?

http://www.light-science.com/articles1013.html

[koja48]

Silver tip is a Griz . . . with highlights, H. And as for bear loads . . . good slugs, period (unless, of course your intent is to piss them off).