[Blain]

What do you guys think? Not many of us here could hope to own or afford an Mp5 (which I think are overated anyway). But consider this, a Kel-Tec Sub2000 as a poor man's Mp5.

http://pdmall.com/1/KEL-TEC/SUB20009MM.jpeg

It is a 32" long semi-auto 5 lb carbine which can be had in 9mm or .40. It can have 30 round magazines with it.


As far as I'm concerned, the only thing the Mp5 has going for it is select fire capability (which I am not too crazy about, esp with only 30 round mags). So just what makes the Mp5 so much better than the kel tec? Why don't people consider the Kel Tec 2000 a poor man's Mp5??

I don't see much of a difference, in a combat situation I would use semi anyway. The kel-tech could be even considered superior in this regaurd!

[AK103K]

I'd take the MP5 over the Kel-Tec without a second thought. I really dont see a comparision. The HK is more robust, more versitile and select fire. Its very accurate, in both semi and auto fire and very controlable and easy to shoot , even for novices. Above all, its combat proven and tested. Full auto does have its time and place and the MP5 is one of the most controlable guns out there in that respect.

[hso]

I've got a Kel Tec Sub and I've handled several MP5s. The Sub is a compromise gun with a clever solution to the length restrictions that the MP5 doesn't have. It's eaten milsup and commercial JHPs without complaint. It fit's in a Camelbak when folded. It uses readily available preban mags (even the super capacity ones). I don't know if it would last as many rounds as the MP5, but I do know that the price is less than a quarter of the MP5 so another could be bought.

[Blain]

more versitile

How so? Name me one thing the Mp5 can do (besides select fire) that the Kel Tec can not?

[Marko Kloos]

Actually, if you disregard the FA capabilities, the Kel-Tec is more versatile than the HK. It'll fold in half for storage or transport, something the MP5 cannot do.

As far as ammo goes....they're both shooting 9mm, but the KT is also available in .40, which once again makes the Kel-Tec more versatile.

The MP5 can accept red dots or scopes via claw mount. The KT has no provisions for optics. That's one point for the MP5, but the Kel-Tec is still ahead in the versatility department. ;)

[bbrins]

Actually, the KEL TEC does have provisions for a red dot or scope, check their website.
http://www.kel-tec.com/new_page_5.htm

[Hkmp5sd]

The MP5K with vertical foregrip and side-folding stock (including a semi-only HK-94 registered as a SBR) is more versatile in my opinion. The MP5 series also includes the 10mm (MP5/10) and .40 S&W (MP5/40).

Name me one thing the Mp5 can do (besides select fire) that the Kel Tec can not?

Has the ability to accept a "snap-on" suppressor. Attached using lugs on the barrel.

And of course, I am in no way biased about MP5s. :)

[AK103K]

The biggest advantage is, the MP5 is always ready to go and can be fired while the stock is collapsed, the Kel Tec cant fire in its closed position. With the end cap on it, its as long as the Kel Tec closed and can easily be carried anyplace it can.(Its only slightly larger with the collapsable stock) It also has holsters availible for concealed carry, again, ready to shoot.

It will handle full power submachine gun ammo.(not sure about the Kel Tec on this)

The HK can, as mentioned, be scoped or have other type optics in an instant with the claw mount, and it is repeatable/no loss of zero. It also has the accuracy to take advantage of this.

It can be a full stocked gun, a collapsible stocked gun, or a "no stocked" gun with the removal and replacement of a pin.

It has a proven sling system that works.

The HK can be supressed.

Besides, could Bruce Willis use a Kel Tec for an anchor point in an elevator shaft like he did the HK in Die Hard? I think not! :D

[G&R Tactical]

I have fired a Kel-Tec and think it is a good rifle for the money. They are accurate, light and versatile....

[Schuey2002]

Name me one thing the Mp5 can do (besides select fire) that the Kel Tec can not?
Here's one. The Kel Tec doesn't make people drool uncontrollably over the mere sight of one like a MP5 does. ;)

[inGobwetrust]

Is this a serious question?

[CleverNickname]

Comparing an MP5 to a Keltec is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Pinto. I mean, they both have wheels and can get you where you want to go, so what's the difference? :p

[Blain]

911 has a power edge, the Mp5 does not.

[Sir Galahad]

All right, a better comparison. Your hand and...never mind...

[sanchezero]

Dude. What are you thinking? :uhoh:

Lack of funds could never justify putting the kel-tec above the MP5. Now if you can't afford an MP5 snatch up the kel-tec, but you must understand it'll never even be a poor substitute.

:p

[Soap]

But its soooo much harder to have ninja fantasies with the Kel-Tec! :p

[Onslaught]

Actually, the KEL TEC does have provisions for a red dot or scope, check their website.
Even the folks over at KTOG.org generally agree that this thing is a POS and a poor concept on KT's part.

Spring loaded mount allows the scope to fold
to the side while the rifle is folded. The scope
springs back into position when the rifle is unfolded.
Scope mount accepts 1" diameter scopes (Not included).


How many REMOTELY decent quality red-dots do you know of that are 1"?

As far as ammo goes....they're both shooting 9mm, but the KT is also available in .40, which once again makes the Kel-Tec more versatile.

Huh? Did you miss HKMP5SD's post just before yours?
The MP5 series also includes the 10mm (MP5/10) and .40 S&W (MP5/40).
Although HK did discontinue the 10mm, so the series doesn't TECHNICALLY "include" the MP5/10 anymore... The MP5/40 is said to be the most popular of the line.

But hey, as negative as these comments sound... They're really not supposed to be. I have nothing against the Sub2000. If I weren't left handed, I'd probably own one!

If you like yours, more power to you.

As for arguing which one is better, the MP5 or the Sub2K... well that's just silly :D

Oh... wait... one more thing I forgot to add regarding the two...

The Sub2K is UGLY as SIN, the HK is what all other sub-guns want to be when they grow up. :neener:

[USGuns]

I've never seen/fired one in person but the Feather Rav-9mm would appear to be a better poor man's MP5:
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html


Lots of accessories:
http://www.featherusa.com/page6.html



BTW, I have a Sub2000 and it is a kick in the pants for the $!

[Razor]

Besides, could Bruce Willis use a Kel Tec for an anchor point in an elevator shaft like he did the HK in Die Hard? I think not!

:D

[schapman43]

You cant possibly be serious!

[Nightcrawler]

You can't be serious! The MP5 is made by HK! They're all tactical and stuff! Nothing can be as good as what they make!

Pssh. :rolleyes:

Depends on how robust the Kel-Tec is. It certainly can't be any more complicated to take apart and clean than HK's roller locked guns. Select-fire capability, even if it is "controllable", provides only a modest advantage over semiauto fire, and even then only in certain circumstances. The HK is more compact, I suppose, but rare will be the times when the differences in length between the two make much of a difference.

As for submachine guns, the only HK model I have experience with (and that's limited) is the UMP45. HK REALLY needs to hire, I don't know, a human being to design their buttstocks. Seriously. Other than that (and the annoying square aperature rear sight) the weapon was reliable.

HK has also discontinued the MP5/40, replacing it with the UMP40. There is a UMP9, too, but AFAIK it isn't being marketed in the US.

[Destructo6]

HKs are easy to take apart if you've done it once or twice.

Spend about $1300 and get an IGF-built SW5 customized to your tastes. This is a poor man's MP5 and not so dissimilar, either.

[CWL]

Having owned an MP5 and handled the KT Sub2000, you have got to be kidding. KTs are great guns for what they are, but their pistols are not equivalent to H&K pistols, nor are their subguns the equivalent of H&K's.

One has been proven in battle by police and military, the other is an inexpensive fun-gun.

[enichols]

Name me one thing the Mp5 can do (besides select fire) that the Kel Tec can not?
Very rapidly deplete your savings account.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Joe Demko]

A better comparison would be the Kel-Tec and a Hi-Point Carbine. Or maybe the Kel-Tec and a Marlin Camp Carbine. Or perhaps the Kel-Tec and one of the Ruger pistol-caliber carbines.

I suspect that where the HK is going to shine is in long term use and durability.

Yes, they both use the same cartridge, but that isn't the whole story.

[hso]

As to appearance - neither the MP5 or the Sub wins any beauty contest (although the Sub is so fugly that it's cute:p ). That tiara belongs to the Beretta.

As noted the range of optics for the Sub is limited, options for style are limited, but I don't think anyone knows if the MP5 is more durable or accurate than the Sub because no one has tested them to the same criteria (that I'm aware of). This "of course" verges on snobery since none of us know or knows anyone that does know which is the better gun. The idea of comparing the two is so silly on the face of it that it merits consideration. Trouble is I'm not will to test my Sub to destruction nor do I know anyone else that has an MP5 that's willing to test theirs to that point either.

[AK103K]

My MP5 has 15000+ rounds through it now, a good number of them full power surplus submachine gun ammo. In all that the only thing that ever failed was the roller retainer in the bolt.(couple dollar fix) It worked fine broken until I took it apart to clean it. It will still make head shots at 100 yards all day long with Federal 9BP using a Beeman SS3 1.5x4 on an ARMS claw mount. Its been refinished, painted, unpainted, painted again and unpainted again. Its still got its funky HK trigger, but that trigger will still let you shoot groups the size of a half dollar at 25 yards, and thats full mag groups not 3 or 5 round groups. If you shoot it on full auto at 10 yards, shooting 3 round bursts(just using the trigger, no 3 round pack) it will consistantly give you three seperate groups, one at point of aim, one slightly higher to the right, and one more slightly higher than that.(I'm right handed) It will look like you fired three seperate groups each with its own aim point. It will do this all day long too. Its trigger is controlable enough to give you 1 round bursts once you learn it. Its so easy to shoot a 5 year old can shoot it and on full auto too, with trigger control to boot. I know this for a fact as my kids have been shooting it since they were 5 and were getting 2-3 round bursts without any trouble.(I wouldnt give them a full mag until the could prove they could. Within a couple of mags, they were easily keeping 3 round bursts on an IPSC target at 10 yards.)
I'm not planning to shoot mine until destruction, but I will keep shooting it till it stops and fix it. When you catch up with your Kel Tec, let me know how its doing, and we'll start the test from there. :)

[iamkris]

Behold...the new thing to "X vs. Y" argue over

[MLC]

iamkris, this argument is more like comparing a chef prepared apple pie to 7-11 orange cupcake.
Quality of engineering and ergonomics are two things that come to mind when comparing the two carbines.
Why not compare a Colt or clone 9mm carbine to the MP5?
That might be more of an analitical discussion.

[USGuns]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that a KelTech Sub2000 can be directly compared to an HK MP5. Everyone would agree they're weapons in 2 completely different classes. The price/quality/engineering/features, etc. of the MP5 are clearly superior. HOWEVER, given that most of us can't legally obtain an MP5 and wouldn't be able to justify the cost -- the Sub2000 offers an affordable and legally obtainable alternative that provides many (but clearly not all) of the features. Plus it has advantages of lighter weight and superior portability.

KT: http://www.kel-tec.com/prod03.htm
HK: http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/mp5frameset.html

[Gordon]

Can I compare my Calico 950 too? The crazy thing has never jammed, puts brass at you feet, digests real hot ammo and holds 50 rounds with the spring relaxed! Make that 100 rounds out of the one C mag I got, but I must confess that C mag affects the balance negatively for me. I sold my HK 94 right before first ban as it was a lot of gun for a little cartridge. I bought Calico cheap on a lark and it has turned out to be a real fun gun, nothing like ripping off a 50 round burst if tree huggers are in the area!:D

[JShirley]

I consider myself a Kel-Tec fan. Though I don't post anymore, really, I am a member of the owner's group. I have two KT firearms with serial numbers under 150. I have used KT's for years, and have used them for firearms classes.

I have a Sub-rifle. I like it quite a bit. There is NO COMPARISON with an HK MP5, other than both weapons being chambered in 9mm.

I believe there are potentially situations where the KT could be preferable to the HK, but even though I believe that the HK is overpriced and overweight, I will bet not even George Kelgren would attempt to compare the two. There are extant HK's that have fired more rounds than you will in your entire lifetime.

Kel-Tec makes affordable, innovative firearms. With the P-32 (and possibly, the P-3AT), they have a world-class offering, in that, faced with any other choice in the caliber, some knowledgeable users will choose the KT. This cannot be said of the Sub-2000. To even attempt to compare an inexpensive product with a horrid trigger to the world standard in submachine guns is laughable.

Blain, have you ever fired an MP5? I just want to be sure I understand your belief that they are overrated.

John

"HK UMP: the poor man's MP5"

[Tropical Z]

It isnt a fair comparison,but most of you are being WAYYYYYYYY too serious and COMPLETELYYYYYYYYYY missing the point!!! The Kel-Tec is a fun looking and competent 9mm carbine in its own right and affordable to the average Joe or Suzy who couldnt even think of owning an MP5.Come on people,lighten up!!!:what:

[JShirley]

C'mon, man. I'm a KT fan.

I'm also a realist. I can do a fluff and buff on a P-11, but the Sub-2000 (unlike the Sub-9) has an abysmal trigger. To pretend otherwise robs you of credence with anyone who has taken the modicum of time required to actually handle a Sub-2000.

John

[AUTIGER04]

What can either do that a Hi Point cant?:eek: :uhoh: :rolleyes:

[Hkmp5sd]

What can either do that a Hi Point cant?

Be sold very rapidly for an excess of $10,000 and it can get you 10 years in Club Fed for having an unregistered one. :) Oh yea, and empty a 30-round magazine with a single pull of the trigger on target with great accuracy.

[USGuns]

So what other firearm out there IS an obtainable alternative to the MP5? Is there one? Maybe the feather-USA Rav-9mm? I've always thought a 9mm version of an AR, properly outfitted, would be a good one as well.

[Black92LX]

Comparing an MP5 to a Keltec is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Pinto. I mean, they both have wheels and can get you where you want to go, so what's the difference?

I take offense to this comment. the pinto has real potential, it just needs a little boost;)

[TechBrute]

Comparing the Kel-Tec to any HK is like comparing the .223 to the .308... oh wait, it's more like comparing the 9mm to the .45ACP... no... more like comparing the 1911 to a Glock... hmmm...

Seriously, there is no flying way in hell that the KT is as accurate as the MP5, and the longer you shoot, the more apparent that difference would become.

[JShirley]

I like the Kel-Tec, but it's just not realistic to compare an arm with one that costs 5x as much...especially when the expensive one is the world standard.

And I don't even especially like the MP5. Sheesh.