[NevadaPistolero]

Went into a friends gun store to talk today and he gave me the bad news. No more Romanian AKs. The ATF banned importation awhile back and out of 7 RSR wholesalers there were none to be had. He had the 2 last ones in his shop....a 2001 model and a new 2003 model, both SAR 1s. Whatever is in country right now is it and no wholesaler is sitting on a bunch because they could never get a bunch like the Chinese guns. get ready for prices to jump sky high just like the Chinese guns did. Ive got an excellent WASR 10 Hi-Cap for sale right now.

[Sir Galahad]

Now I can do my "I got ice cream and YOU didn't, hah hah haha hah!" dance at the shooting area and some folks I know who put buying one off.:neener:

[MAKOwner]

Has nothing to do with the ATF according to Century, merely a disagreement over price that couldn't be worked around so they have quit buying them... Haven't heard if that covers WASRs too or not... Alot of people seem to think it may be partly to do with the AWB sunset, they may not want to be stuck with a bunch of post bans at that time, not sure I buy that, seems to me like they could buy as many as they think they could get sold by then? Perhaps they have a better model AK they're lining up to bring in? Beats me...

So the official word is it does NOT involve the ATF or a import ban, but I have a feeling they're not telling everything...

[Chipperman]

Well, I got a second one for a good price last month. Still NIB.
Figgered if the price jumps, great. If it doesn't, well it sure won't fall much. I can think of worse guns to be stuck with.

[jsalcedo]

Can't someone else import them?

I just saw a huge stack of them at the gunshow for $319 so there is no shortage as of yet.

[AZRickD]

Figgered if the price jumps, great.Great? The price of that rifle increases inversely as to your right to keep and bear arms.

Wise up.

Rick

[Chipperman]

:confused:
"The price of that rifle increases inversely as to your right to keep and bear arms.

Wise up."


The gun is not being stopped from import by ATF. How does a price increase in this situation in any way reflect gun laws/RKBA?
It's simple supply and demand.

[bad_dad_brad]

I got my SAR-1. A few months ago. A really sweet AK-47 and I am a happy man.

Always something going on weird vis-a-vis ex-commie imports, so buy when you can.

[TODD3465]

I got my SAR-1 and 2, so no worries here.

Makes me wonder though.
If the AWB does go under that would mean Bulgarian SLRs direct from the original manufacturer in the normal configuration or Russian AK's the same way.(Semi-auto of course):D

So maybe they are holding back on making any more deals with the Romanians for a reason.:confused:

[SodaPop]

If the AWB does go under that would mean Bulgarian SLRs direct from the original manufacturer in the normal configuration

PLEASE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tamara]

If the AWB does go under that would mean Bulgarian SLRs direct from the original manufacturer in the normal configuration or Russian AK's the same way.

Unfortunately, that's incorrect. They would still be covered under the '89 Import Ban. (The one that brought you the goofy thumbhole-stocked rifles in the first place...)

[MAKOwner]

Yes but add the 5 or 6 US parts and they could come in just like the Romanian guns, only with their evil features intact as well unless I'm mistaken. That's at least true for most all of the imports. There could be a hiccup with the changes Clinton had done in 97 that affected the MAK90s and SLR rifles by name. I'm not sure how that effects US parts and such, it should still only cover "imports" so I think they'll be good to go with enough of the US parts on the Bulgys... Wonder how long before they close the "US parts" loophole???

The Russian AKs will still be out due to the agreement we have with Russian regarding "military weapons". Unless that changes we'll be stuck with Saigas...

And I seem to recall a 2 year or something ban on Chinese imports recently, so no chicom goodies at the sunset I guess...

[Rocko]

The ATF's current policy is not to allow complete rifles to be built using either imported barrels or receivers of "EBR-type" rifles. Doesn't matter if the complete rifle is considered imported or US made. Take a look at all the parts kits that are advertised as "for repair or replacement only" or the imbel FAL receivers, for example. However, somehow the SAR series has continued to be imported despite this, which uses both an unaltered imported receiver and barrel - neither of which the ATF is allowing for any other rifle. Can anyone think of another exception? I can't.

I'm guessing the ATF just realized this and quietly stopped importation. The WASR series isn't effected as they come in as single stack rifles and are converted to accept the normal AK mags after importation. At least, that gets around the receiver problem.

Rocko

[NevadaPistolero]

Rocko I think you hit it on the button. The BATF woke up for a minute out of there continual sleep and saw they had screwed up. I heard the single stack WASR will be ok but who the hell wants an AK that only holds 10 rounds. At the very least I think we will see prices going up and I still think it wont take long for whats in country to dry up. As soon as people see its true there will be a run on them that wont stop untill there all gone.

[Rocko]

I think they may be able to continue to offer the hicap WASR's. Once in US configuration, I don't think there is anything barring them from opening up the magwell on these, just like they do now. They aren't really an EBR-type receiver, so don't fall under the "repair or replacement use".

There is an email over on gunboards supposedly from a Century rep regarding this - they say they'll still be available, but will have the thumbhole style stock. Not quite sure why they can't/don't swap it out with the PG - perhaps they figure it isn't worthwhile. I'm still not sure how they are using the barrels, though, as they are the same as on a "real" AK. I think this is why you mostly see the saiga's, vepr's, etc. with the different length barrels, although they do come in 16" barrels, too, so who knows.

Rocko

[SodaPop]

Unfortunately, that's incorrect. They would still be covered under the '89 Import Ban. (The one that brought you the goofy thumbhole-stocked rifles in the first place...)




THANK YOU, TAMARA!!!

:cuss:

[MAKOwner]

I think the no-new rifles from parts thing has been shown to be basically toothless. The importer can't bring them in as parts, and then build them to sell straight away, but you the end buyer can build it yourself or have some 3rd party build it for you... The "for replacement parts only" warning is there to cover the importers ??? should a 3rd party buy a large amount of these with the direct intent to build them, keeps them out of some lameass conspiracy charge... This is only binding to the importer...

See the first response on this thread, it lays it out along with documentation: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49435

SARs kept coming in all this time because they were not brought in as parts, or as kits, they were full rifles, which with US parts added somewhere in the mix there (in a bonded customs location according to what I hear) were then legal to sell as US made rifles. All of the "replacement parts" crap was merely dealing with getting kits imported, not full rifles like the SARs/WASRs, and then has no binding on the end users (of course you still have to abide by the US parts count, and current evil features lists)... The Century rifles this would have an effect on would be the CETME and G3 clones, unless they have loophole around it I don't know about those are built from kits on a US receiver I believe...

I really don't think the ATF is the reason for no new SARs. If it were you also would not be able to convert the WASRs to highcap, there are distinct rules against taking a gun and converting it into a configuration that was not importable, which converting a WASR to highcaps would be doing if SARs and other highcap models were not importable all of a sudden (and without the US parts doing that still would be, so that is still in effect)... The Drag-style stocks are also already considered the same as pistol grip stocks from what I've heard the ATF say, I just bet they are cheaper to buy, which boils back down to Century doing all this for $$$ again... If the ATF was banning Century's AK goodies the highcap WASRs would be goners as well. According to Century those are still going to be coming in. At the very least I think Century would be throwing out loudly how they were banned in an effort to increase panic buying if they really had been...


The only direct word from Century is it was a monetary decision by them, I suppose we need an update/confirmation to be 100% sure though...

[Rocko]

I can dig up the ruling on ATF's website, but it pretty clearly states that no receivers or barrels from otherwise unimportable firearms can be used to build complete rifles. There is no distinction between a complete rifle vs. parts. And I don't believe these technically enter the US as complete rifles - that would be in violation of the GCA (or the 1989 reinterpretation thereof). Rather, they sit in a bonded warehouse where they have the imported parts to be replaced stripped off. By the time they leave the bonded warehouse and legally "enter the US", they have less than 10 of the specified imported "parts" and thus legal.

It is arguable whether or not the "for repair or replacement" thing effects anyone beyond the importer or their agents, but in the case of the SAR, Century is clearly the importer.

Once again, I have to reference the fact that no other EBR-type firearm is being imported like the SAR. Gone are the guns built on new FEG AK receivers. Gone are the FMP and Greek G3/HK91 guns. Gone are the rifles built on Imbel FAL receivers from any large importer (as Century and Springfield used to offer). I have to think that the SAR series fell through the cracks.

I also don't think it is coincidence that this announcement comes at nearly the same time that Century announced their CETME and G3 clones are no longer going to have their muzzle brake - they are lopping off the threaded portion of the barrel. Apparently the ATF found issue with it or the way it was attached - many people have been removing them, so perhaps the ATF isn't considering blind pinning to be permanent anymore. People supposedly "in the know" have said the ATF has been hanging out at Century's warehouses over the past month or so, and these are apparently some of the results.

Rocko

[MAKOwner]

It only deals with receivers and barrels from parts kits from everything I've found, and it's due to what the importers have to put on the permits to get them imported. The ATF release sounds fairly bad and had alot of people up in arms, spreading the info. But the official interpretation is as below:

http://www.falparts.com/ftg.gif

This has been beat to death on the FalFiles board among others. As long as you aren't the importer and use the proper US parts and few enough "evil features" you can still build these... Only area to be careful in was if you wanted to setup shop and build alot of these for sale as a 3rd party builder.... Then accusations of being in cohoots with the importer to go around the law could be raised...

The SARs are a different issue, they may not truly "enter the US" before they have the US parts added, but they are not on the import permits as part kits either... Century still has their Cetmes and G3 clones as well (which as I pointed out I'm not sure of how they are getting those done, as they were parts kits... Perhaps they are built in the bonded customs place as well, so they aren't imported as "parts" either? I don't know...)

Alot of the reasons why we lost the MISR egyptian AKs, the L1A1 Sporters and other FALs that were common at the time and such is the crap from Clinton in 97 & 98 that banned those and the MAK90s, SA85s, etc from import by name... The SARs came about after that...

On November 14 1997, the President and the Secretary of the Treasury ordered a review of the importation of modified versions of semiautomatic assault rifles into the United States. Consequently, it was decided on April 6, 1998, that the following modified versions of semiautomatic assault rifles could no longer be imported under the sporting purposes test.

AK47 Variants

MAK90
314
56V
89
EXP56A
SLG74
NHM90
NHM90-2
NHM91
SA85M
SA93
A93
AKS762
SA2000
ARM
MISR
MISTR
SA85M
Mini PSL
ROMACK 1
ROMACK 2
ROMACK 4
Hunter Rifle
386S
PS/K
Galil Sporter
Haddar
Haddar ll
WUM 1
WUM 2
SLR 95
SLR 96
SLR 97
SLG 94
SLG 95
SLG 96

FN-FAL Variants

L1A1 Sporter
FAL Sporter
FZSA
SAR4800
XFAL
C3
C3A
LAR Sporter

HK Variants

BT96
Centurian 2000
SR9
PSG1
MSG90
G3SA
SAR8

Uzi Varients

Officers 9
320 Carabine
Uzi Sporter

SIG SG 550 Variants

SG550-1
SG550-2


I don't know the full story with the FEG receivers and Global Trades or whoever it was that was bringing those in. They were however bringing in the parts kits, and the receivers seperately and assembling them, which is NOT what Century was doing with the SARs... Century swapped out parts from fully assembled rifles to get US made status but that is significantly different than bringing in actual kits and seperate receivers and assembling them like almost everyone else was doing with these rifles, including Global with the FEGs. Unless I'm mistaken Global got in with Arsenal making full on, actual US made AKs, that may be the main reason behind the absence of the FEG receivers anymore at all combined with how they were indeed the importer and the assembler...


I also don't think it is coincidence that this announcement comes at nearly the same time that Century announced their CETME and G3 clones are no longer going to have their muzzle brake - they are lopping off the threaded portion of the barrel. Apparently the ATF found issue with it or the way it was attached - many people have been removing them, so perhaps the ATF isn't considering blind pinning to be permanent anymore. People supposedly "in the know" have said the ATF has been hanging out at Century's warehouses over the past month or so, and these are apparently some of the results.


That is worrisome (sp), but as I've heard it the particular muzzle brakes they had were reclassified as flash hiders by the ATF, so instead of spending money to come up with another design they are just leaving them off completely... You could be right though, I certainly hope the SARs weren't cut off by the ATF. I still think Century would be jumping up and down making it known if they were really banned. They flat out said a month or so ago it was merely a disagreement over prices with the Romanian source...


Also, the guys at AKUSA, InRange, and Independence Arms I believe it is are all still assembling new guns off of parts kits (provided by the customer), they just aren't the one's importing them.... In addition to that AKUSA jumps through some hoops and turns Saigas (that they import I believe, not just customer provided Saigas anyway) into very nice highcap AK rifles they sell as brand new...

[Rocko]

Well, without seeing the form 6's, I don't think we can be sure what they were imported as. While I'm sure they left the seller as complete rifles, I don't believe they could have legally left the bonded warehouse that way. However, I don't see how they'd get a form 6 approved for the complete rifle as the complete gun would fail the "sporting purposes" test, as the document attached states. In order for the "sporting purposes" test to not apply, it needs to have less than 10 imported parts. Presumably this is how it leaves the bonded warehouse - with all the parts to be replaced with US made ones removed. I don't see how that could be considered as anything other than a collection of parts, and thus the "repair/replacement" thing applies. It would seem that either one or the other restrictions must apply.

Perhaps Century was previously dancing around these points and was somehow getting the form 6's approved as complete rifles. Maybe they were completing the assembly with the US made parts in the bonded warehouse - thus were complete rifles and getting around the "repair/replacement" and at the same time had less than 10 imported parts so not subject to the GCA/922(r). Not sure if this is possible to do, though, since the bonded warehouse is considered to be outside the US...

But, as noted, the demand for rifles built on "real" receivers is there, and the law of supply and demand suggests that if the demand is there, someone will supply it, if possible. Somewhat strange that if all that was required to get a "real" barreled Galil receiver or SIG receiver or UZI receiver, etc., etc., etc. would be to follow the supposed SAR process to get a form 6 approved for the complete rifle and remove enough foreign parts in the bonded warehouse, then more folks would be doing it.

Rocko

[MAKOwner]

I sure would love it if someone from Century would lay it all out, could be some fancy dancing on their part, you're right...

Somewhat strange that if all that was required to get a "real" barreled Galil receiver or SIG receiver or UZI receiver, etc., etc., etc. would be to follow the supposed SAR process to get a form 6 approved for the complete rifle and remove enough foreign parts in the bonded warehouse, then more folks would be doing it.

I've wondered about that as well. It just seems like Century would have had to get incredibly lucky to get the 4 years of different runs of SARs through the ATF if it was just a mistake... Maybe they'll shed some light on it before too long.

BTW, if the bonded warehouse customs thing is considered outside the US, would they absolutely have to have a form 6 for them at that point already just to get them there? They'd be "US made" when they left, so what do they need at that point to get them out of customs? Very interesting stuff, why did no one other than Century do this crap during all this time with some other rifles, cost too high for anything other than a cheap AK?

I'm still interested in the CETMEs/G3 clones too, they apparently are still bringing them in even now, seems those would be harder to get in than the SARs...