[anymanusa]

Hello all,

Yesterday when surfing the internet I managed to find a place selling them for $516 a piece, but I lost that link, and today I've only been able to find them at $535/ea. If I can remember correctly the place was something like D__ guns or something.

Any help would be appreciated, as I don't feel like paying $85 extra for it from Atlanticfirearms... my last 2 gun purchases, I found a savings of $140 total after I'd already bought the firearms.:banghead:

If anyone knows where the tactical shotgun models are in stock also, that would be fine, but so far all I can find is the 12 model.

Thanks

[stiletto raggio]

$535 is a very reasonable price. They used to be chedaper, but they won't be again, and all it takes is an executive order to ban the import of anyhting with a detachable magazine. Get it while you can.

[anymanusa]

Is that all it takes? No congressional or senate interaction? Just and EO?

[Rustynuts]

I guarantee the $516 place is probably out of stock. That's probably an old page that hasn't been updated.

[anymanusa]

Just purchased mine for $600. I couldn't find anything else instock for less. I guess I'm happy to have one on the way though.

[forrestd]

Try going back in time. That will help. :neener:

[Jack2427]

I don't want to rain on anyones parade. I got a Saiga some years ago. It was a really interesting adaption of the AK action to a shotgun. I still have it in my collection, but it will be the last shotgun that I will depend on. Not because of any inherent engineering defects, but for the following:
1. If you leave the mags loaded(even downloaded by 1) they will alter the shape of any but all brass shells after a while so that they won't chamber-this means for a SD weapon you pretty much have to leave it mag empty.
2. The mags themselves are not easy to get now, and are expensive and not getting cheaper, and like most AK type products the mags are designed to be used a while then when they give trouble, toss em and use new-not so easy now, and probably a lot worse later.
3. Parts availability; I have scrounged spares even for my Winchester 1901(essentially a 10 gauge 1887) by buying up junkers, and could probably assemble a couple if I had to, again not so easy for the Saiga.
In its favor the Saiga is a reliable fast shooting gun, and as long as you have loaded mags handy you might be the king of the hill(literally). When you run out of loaded mags, anyone with a good double with ejectors, or even extractors has volume of fire advantage on you. Now I know such protracted engagement in real civilian life is very unlikely, but I do not notice ANY professionals toting Saiga Shotguns, and I have done my noticing in several areas of the world where such folks hang out-and I always pay attention to what the other guy is packing-particularly if he is on my side, today.
But, yeah they are a gas to shoot.

[Girodin]

1. If you leave the mags loaded(even downloaded by 1) they will alter the shape of any but all brass shells after a while so that they won't chamber-this means for a SD weapon you pretty much have to leave it mag empty.


Consult saiga12 forums for the various solutions that have been devised for that.

2. The mags themselves are not easy to get now,

I suppose if you doont have acredit card or access to the internet that is true.


like most AK type products the mags are designed to be used a while then when they give trouble, toss em and use new-not so easy now, and probably a lot worse later.


Honestly, I am not sure what you are getting at here. All things ak that I have experience with are very very durable. I have heard no complaints concerning the durability of APG mags. There could be issues but this would be the first I have ever heard of them.

As far as parts what is it that you want to get your hands on exactly?

[Girodin]

$535 is a pretty good price. I am not aware of anyplace that actually has them in stock for less.

[john1911]

1. If you leave the mags loaded(even downloaded by 1) they will alter the shape of any but all brass shells after a while so that they won't chamber-this means for a SD weapon you pretty much have to leave it mag empty.

Never had a problem with this. Got some mags that have been continuously loaded for 8 months now.

I have had some problems with fully loaded mags locked in with the bolt closed. The top shell can deform.

[frankd4]

Two years ago I bought 3 of them at 330.00 the reson I got three was that I was thinking thst some thing that good would be banned I also got 10 10round mags and 10 eight round mags and five five round mags. Buy them while you can.

[Browning]

Girodin : Consult saiga12 forums for the various solutions that have been devised for that.

Like what? :confused: Leave the bolt locked back (w/a BHO) with a full mag locked in?

I'm just curious and I wouldn't know where to look on the Saiga Forums.

[SuperNaut]

Like what? Leave the bolt locked back (w/a BHO) with a full mag locked in?

That is what I do.

[SN13]

Some people put a pull-pin from a fire extinguisher through their mag (drilled a small hole), which holds the rounds down away from the bolt, preventing round deformation and allowing for a quick, pull & shoot effect.

But honestly, I've left mags FULLY LOADED for 2 Months in my Saiga on a closed bolt and the first round always chambered.

I think it has somewhat to do with which hulls and what type of shell you're using.

Dude, where did you see them for $535? PM me.

10rd AGP mags. Always in stock at AGP website.

Jack2427 Wrote:

"When you run out of loaded mags, anyone with a good double with ejectors, or even extractors has volume of fire advantage on you. Now I know such protracted engagement in real civilian life is very unlikely, but I do not notice ANY professionals toting Saiga Shotguns, and I have done my noticing in several areas of the world where such folks hang out-and I always pay attention to what the other guy is packing-particularly if he is on my side, today."

This is like saying, when you run outta AR mags, anyone with a Lever-Action 30-30 or Break-open single-shot, is going to outgun you. Yes, loading 2 into a chamber on a double by hand is faster than loading 1 by hand into an empty chamber on an S-12.

100 Rds of 12ga is 100rds of 12ga. If you have to carry it in 5 Drums, 10 Stick mags or 4 loose boxes, you still have to carry it. Volume of fire is with the pre-loaded stick mags/drums over the one loaded tube and 4 boxes of loose shells.

I'm pretty confident that If I ran out of 10 stick mags and hadn't already won against a double/Tube-feeder hand-loading 4 boxes of shells, then the odds weren't in my favor.

I hand-cycled (not by choice) my S-12 against tube-feeders (SA and Pump) in a shotgun match and still managed to beat most of them.

(My bolt was sticking back as it rode under the spring assembly after I had replaced the rear trunnion. I fixed it the next day, but I should have test fired it before the match, Dumb, i know.)

RELOADS are king. Empty Mag to 10+1 in 2seconds. vs. Empty Mag to 8+1 in 8 Seconds. After the mags are gone, the tube is going to have an advantage, but if we're both packing 100rds and mine are already in mags, then I win.

[rbernie]

Some people put a pull-pin from a fire extinguisher through their mag (drilled a small hole), which holds the rounds down away from the bolt, preventing round deformation and allowing for a quick, pull & shoot effect.
So there's no issue with round deformation from leaving the mags loaded on a shelf?

[Ben Shepherd]

Rbernie-

Not if they are decent shells(NOT the wally world value packs).

I've had a couple factory 5 round mags sitting on the shelf for over a year with the remington 2X6 buffered loads. No trouble.

The problem is storing them long term in the gun under a closed bolt.

[Atla]

If you find it for under $550, buy it.

The next shipment that comes into the states will probably be up around $650-700.

These things are really catching on.

[akanotken]

In all fairness, some folks have had issues with leaving loaded mags on a closed bolt. Others have not. I'm talking HD stuff, so likely it's higher quality stuff, guess I could be wrong.

I left a 3 inch 00 shell in mine for a month to see (should be worse case scenario as the lenght increases the force on the side of the shell. No problems noticed in handcycling, certainly couldn't see any deformation visually.

Some put a disk in the front of the top shells. Actually, I don't know why all shells don't deform, they all push against each other.

slugs will NOT have a problem, I'd dare to say, so if that's an acceptable load then it's a no brainer.

Buy one, see how your HD rounds of choice do. If they squash, change loads or sell the shottie, neither would be hard to do.

No one's brought up the drums now available? :)

Honestly, I'd likely be working the factory 5 round mags in a HD setting, just less stuff to hang down. But I prefer an AR for that roll. Can I say that in this forum?

Lastly, there's some 5 round mags coming in from the orient that are getting good reviews too. I just haven't bothered to try them as I'm pretty set with mags.

[357wheelgunner]

To find better prices on Saigas....

1. Build time machine
2. Go back in time, to when they were first being imported
3. Buy 1 for you, and 3 for me, at $299 (I'm good for it, don't worry)
4. Enjoy

[stiletto raggio]

Tube feeders=obsolescent. Just wait until the next generation of magazines comes out. And LRBHO mods. And mag wells. And ergonomic safeties. Then tube feeders=obsolete.

[357wheelgunner]

Tube feeders=obsolescent. Just wait until the next generation of magazines comes out. And LRBHO mods. And mag wells. And ergonomic safeties. Then tube feeders=obsolete.

*obsolete*

Real riflemen know that the M1 Garand was a fantastic design because of its ease of firing in different position.

I'd much rather use a tube fed shotgun for the same reason. The 10 round mag on a Saiga makes the weapon as tall as it is long, no good at all. I can rest a Benelli M1 or Remington 1187 across my bed, or couch, or brick porch wall, or car hood, or whatever cover I have.

Large, ****ty quality, plastic magazines get broken when they knock into things. They also get in the way. Large detachable magazines are good for bad shooters who miss a lot. Real shotgunners will be fine with a single barrel, double barrel, pump gun, or even a tube fed semi auto. There is nothing obsolete about the tube fed semi/pump guns.

[Ben Shepherd]

357 Wheelgunner-
Valid points. I don't disagree. Couple things on magazines though.

Some of us stick with the factory 5 rounders for the size issue you mentioned. But I'd hesitate to call them ***** quality. The factory ones are tougher than you might think. I have no interest in the 10 rounders, or the 20 round drums, pretty much a novelty item in my book.

To be truthful, after playing with them a lot, I find the russians knew what they were doing with the factory 8 rounders. Best all-around choice, IMO. Unfortunately, they're scarce as hens teeth here in the USA.

[Jack2427]

Ok guys, not trying to tell you what to like. But; leaving a mag loaded for 8 months or a year is not a good test for whether or not the shells might deform over a time period. Remember, the shell only has to deform just a little, and only one time to totally ruin your day.
There are very good reasons why box mags have not taken over in shotguns. This does not mean your Saiga is not a good gun, as I mentioned I liked shooting mine a lot. But if you are going to carry 20 5 round mags around, well, you just have not humped much equipment around in your lifetime.
Using a pin of some sort to hold the shells down sounds OK, but that is just increasing the pressure on a shell at one particular point, and whenever I have to mickey mouse around to get something to work as intended, I start thinking about it-real hard.
In the unlikely scenario of an extended engagement with a Saiga, you have a different situation than with an M16. With an M16 you have put 30 rounds downrange for each mag, not 5 (or 8). Further, with your M16 you are presumably using those neat 10 round clips to recharge mags as needed, it works really well, particularly if you are highly motivated. Lots different than loading 1 round at a time into a box.
By having spare parts available, I mean that if I need a firing pin, or a bolt catch, or some other small part(it is usually the small parts that put a gun out of action), I will be able to find it somewhere, unfortunately Saiga does not have the same parts availability as most domestic shotguns, and is unlikely to in the foreseeable future.
The really nice thing about tubular mags is that all you need to keep your gun running is ammo, the system is incredibly simple, and does not require parts external to the weapon to continue to function. Shotgun ammo by definition is large, making carrying a large supply of it somewhat difficult and heavy. Adding a box mag to the mix seems to me to be just another thing to go wrong-or lose-or break.
Again, no slur on anyone using a Saiga, but I believe there are better systems for a combat shotgun. A little research will reveal that the military has been looking for a way to provide lots of ammo in a fast reload for shotguns for some time. The result, the latest military shotgun has guess what type of ammo feed? Same as in WWI, shells out of a tube.

[stiletto raggio]

"A little research will reveal that the military has been looking for a way to provide lots of ammo in a fast reload for shotguns for some time. The result, the latest military shotgun has guess what type of ammo feed? Same as in WWI, shells out of a tube."

True and not true.

True, the military (namely the Marines) just adopted the Benelli M4, a tube fed auto.

Not true in that, as far as I know, the military has not gone out of its way to expediate shotgun relaoding. The military shotgun has, in the last 30 years, been relegated to guarding prisoners, breaching, and SF stuff. Nobody except the Marines has even considered new shotguns since a remotely reliable mag-fed auto shotgun has become available.

Also, the new under-barrel breaching shotgun has a detachable magazine, and the AA-12 (which is being considered for purchase according to the manufacturer) uses 10 round sticks and 20 round drums. The Russian military uses the Saiga 12 in various configurations, and most of their security forces use Saigas as well. The Russians are married to some silly pump-gun fetish, and the system familiarity makes the Saiga a perfect complement to AK rifles.

Last, but not least, it should be noted that European militaries use the shotgun far less than we do, and the European gun makers are not inclined to develop shotguns they can't sell over there and have only recently been able to sell over here. The Saiga and Molot are changing the game. The few advantages that a tube-fed shotgun currently possesses are losing relevence as the mag-fed designs become more mature.

[stiletto raggio]

"Real shotgunners will be fine with a single barrel, double barrel, pump gun, or even a tube fed semi auto."

I own plenty of tube-fed guns and doubles. I shoot them just fine, and I vastly prefer them for hunting and clays. But if the potential target can shoot back, it is time to admit that technology has advanced and give the mag-feeders a try.

Then again, coming form a guy whose screenname indicates and affinity for other aged equipment, the "real shotgunners only need this or that" mentality is predicatable. I love my wheelguns, too, but they are mostly for recreation and sport. While I would be perfectly confident when armed my 686, the Glocks go by the bed.

[JImbothefiveth]

Real riflemen know that the M1 Garand was a fantastic design because of its ease of firing in different position.

I'd much rather use a tube fed shotgun for the same reason
Those who are riflemen for a living don't seem to use the garand, and we have some on this forum, who say they wouldn't take the garand over an AR.

And seriously, when was the last time you shot your shotgun prone?:confused: (Okay, maybe if it's your deer gun, designed for shooting slugs.

[357wheelgunner]

Some of us stick with the factory 5 rounders for the size issue you mentioned. But I'd hesitate to call them ***** quality. The factory ones are tougher than you might think.

You're right, that was poor wording on my part. Its not the quality I disagree with, but the design. A long magazine running perpendicular to the weapon means that when the magazine bumps into something, huge forces are created where the magazine attaches to the weapon. There's no way to brace it, like you can with a tubular magazine, to the barrel.

Then again, coming form a guy whose screenname indicates and affinity for other aged equipment, the "real shotgunners only need this or that" mentality is predicatable.

I keep a Sig for my bedside gun. It's hard to mount a light to a revolver. Technology has its place, but magazine fed shotguns have too many weaknesses compared to regular tube fed shotguns. The only advantage, quick reloading, is mostly unneeded. I don't even think that many LEOs get into shotgun fights where they empty a 7 round tube, then wish they had another large magazine to spray more buckshot and slugs into the air. Also, you can't keep box magazines "topped off" as you go.

Instead of "real shotgunners" I probably should have said "shotgunners who aim and hit things, and know how to thumb rounds into a stable, supported tube".

The Saiga serves a purpose, but seems more like a fad, and an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

edited to add:

Those who are riflemen for a living don't seem to use the garand, and we have some on this forum, who say they wouldn't take the garand over an AR.


By rifleman I mean people who can shoot at looong range with open sighted battle rifles, quickly and accurately. There aren't many of them who "do it for a living", and those do carry a rifle for a living nowadays are more worried about shooting at close range with high capacity .22 caliber aluminum rifles with vertical handles and widgets that require batteries to work.

Just because someone carries or owns a rifle does not make them a Rifleman.

And seriously, when was the last time you shot your shotgun prone? (Okay, maybe if it's your deer gun, designed for shooting slugs.

I've never fired my pump guns prone, but I shot an 1187 prone while sighting it in for slugs at 100 yards. Once I can afford it, I'll buy a tube fed semi auto, they're great, especially for shooting slugs (its hard to get a good grip on a moving pump, semi autos have solid forends and feel more....solid)

[SN13]

You make the argument that 20 5rd mags (or 10, 10rd mags) is alot to haul.... I'd argue that 4 loose boxes of shells is even harder... lighter? A little. Awkward? You bet. My mags don't disintegrate in the rain. If I reach into a bag holding my mags, i pull out 10 rounds at a time. Can you hold 10rds of 12ga in ONE hand? I reload from empty mag to 10+1 (Not empty chamber mind you) in the same time it takes you to go empty tube to 3+1. You MIGHT beat me to the second shot on a Fire, Reload 1, Fire. But I'll beat you to the Fire, Reload 5, Fire every time.

Now, there is something to be said about tube feeders.... they almost never loose a mag (Sometimes those tube-caps break and the whole piece comes apart, but for the most part, they always retain the mag (tube)). If you're speed-reloading a S12, you're dropping your mags. For competition, this isn't a big deal, but I can see why not giving the troops mags for a shotgun that will be a tertiary weapon for most, makes sense. Keep the Tube-Feeders.

[JImbothefiveth]

By rifleman I mean people who can shoot at looong range with open sighted battle rifles, quickly and accurately. There aren't many of them who "do it for a living", and those do carry a rifle for a living nowadays are more worried about shooting at close range with high capacity .22 caliber aluminum rifles with vertical handles and widgets that require batteries to work.
Do you know any "true riflemen" who feel the Garand is superior for this reason, especially when you factor in items such is bipods? This does however, say that high capacity is good for close range, such as shotgun ranges.


I've never fired my pump guns prone, but I shot an 1187 prone while sighting it in for slugs at 100 yards
If you're going to be firing slugs at 100 yards, what disadvantage does the saiga with a 5 round magazine have over a normal tube magazine fed gun?
If you're doing that, it's probably for hunting, where you don't need a high rate of fire.

That said, my shotgun of choice is an 870, and would be an 11-87 if I could afford it.

[stiletto raggio]

Here's my take on the whole "magazine protrusion" thing. If I am fighting with a shotgun, it is probably inside a building. I am not going prone, but I may be leaning around or moving over obstacles. I have never shot a shotgun in the prone, and I can't imagine a time when I would want to go to the prone.

If you are far enough away form your target that going to the prone is advantageous, a shotgun of any kind is not the weapon you want. And if you are getting on the ground to shoot under a vehicle or other raised obstacle, your weapon should be canted anyway. That is, you will be on your side, not your belly.

[Girodin]

All the discussion of extended engagements are so irrelevatnt to HD that it makes me laugh. For those that fear running their mags dry do you keep more than 50 rounds (5 ten round mags) with your tube fed guns?

It is hard for me to imagine a HD scenerio where I need to fire more than 50 rounds. If I do I gues I'll pick up the carbine I keep next to my S12. If I though this was likely i am far from convienced that the best option would be to arm myself with a tube fed shotgun instead.

Also if you are leaving rounds on a closed bolt for months at a time that is indicative that one is not shooting a gun they plan to stake their life on very often. Shooting more than every 8 months is much more important than what gun you have. I have not had an issue with round derformation but then I like to shoot more than a few times a year with a HD gun.

across my bed, or couch, or brick porch wall, or car hood, or whatever cover I have.


I hope you are aware that your bed your car and your couch are pretty poor cover. Concealment is the word you want for those things, bullets go right through them. That said you can lay the foregrip of an S12 across any of them, even with a ten rounder or a 20 round drum.

But if you are going to carry 20 5 round mags around, well, you just have not humped much equipment around in your lifetime.


What are we discussing here, HD guns or infantry weapons? That said the same can be said for the idea of carrying loose shells. Moot point IMO and certainly for a discussion of HD.

The fact is any number of shotguns can make very fine HD guns. Further it is important to differentiate between a weapon for HD and a weapon for other purposes.

I will say about saigas there must be some reason that using one automatically bumps one into the open class in three gun matches.

I have 870s and think they are fine shotguns. I have used Benellis and they are very nice shotguns. I firmly believe any of them (and a bunch of others) are more than up to the task as a HD shotgun. The saiga is more than capable. I have chosen to have it by my side right now and not one of my 870s and I feel very comfortable with that choice. If someone else prefered the 870 (benelli or what have you) I couldn't tell them they were wrong. Each have strong points and trade offs. We should be serious about discussion them though. Possible is a far far cry from probable and very often when doing worst case scenerio evaluations possible is pretty far from things that are even remotely likely to occur. worst case scenerio analysis often cases things that are more likely to be over looked and preparations for them to be neglected.

[gunnie]

i have a pump, tube mag mdl 12 winch. limited shots between reloads. works good.

i have a pump, box mag valtro, reloads faster, but needs it more oftem than the winch. works good.

i have a semi mdl 11 rem WWII veteran, goes dry real fast, and reloads slow. works good.

i have a saiga 12, 10 rds mags take longer to become empty. reloads fast. works good.

i don't forsee, or discount any kind of scenario that any or them wouldn't WORK GOOD for.

gunnie

gunnie