Stray round hits house, source alleged to be nearby range


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Devonai
September 11, 2003, 02:28 AM
I caught this one over at Packing.org (http://www.packing.org).

The source article. (http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2003-09-10/local/254210.shtml)

September 10, 2003

The bullet hit the side of the garage at about 9 a.m. one recent Saturday while Bob and Karen King were in bed reading the newspaper.
The projectile drilled a pencil-size hole about 5 feet above ground level through the shake-covered wall, shattered the backs of two plastic hardware drawers on a shelf inside and bounced off the opposite wall. Spent at last, the slug fell to the concrete floor.

On the other side of that wall, the noise interrupted Bob King's concentration.

"I heard something rattling around in the garage, but we kept reading the paper," King said of that Aug. 23 morning. "Later on, I was messing around in the garage when I found little pieces of plastic lying on the floor. Then I found the bullet lying there, and I said to myself, 'This is not a good thing.'

"And I called the police."

The Kings' neighborhood hasn't been the same since.

Police officers called the Bainbridge Island Sportsmen's Club, which for more than 60 years has had a pistol firing range south of the Kings' 5-year-old subdivision just north of New Brooklyn Road. The range, which is used by the police themselves for training, is about three-quarters of a mile from the Kings' house.

A club official told the officer that the pistol range had been used that morning by an off-duty Bainbridge Island Fire Department firefighter and a friend. The slug found in the Kings' garage was a 9 mm Glock semiautomatic pistol bullet that was "consistent" in caliber and make with the ammunition being used by the firing range shooters, police said. The shooters denied firing any bullets out of the range or above the protective dirt berm behind their targets.

The investigating officer didn't find any evidence that the two people practicing were negligent in any way. He called the incident a "freak accident."

The club closed the pistol range immediately, said Bill Omaits, its president.

"I didn't sleep for five nights," Omaits said. "This was very disconcerting to me. I believe this is the first time this has ever happened, although I don't know for certain. But it was time to do something anyway.

"Our No. 1 concern is safety."

Several days later, the club allowed shooters to resume target practice from a distance of 10 yards, but not from the 25-yard shooting stations.

The Sportsmen's Club is among dozens of clubs across the country that have been fighting encroaching urbanization. A shooting club in Gig Harbor has been seeking approval to move its operations to a new location away from the town.

Bainbridge's Sportsmen's Club was founded in 1929 when the island had only a few dirt roads. It was miles from the nearest habitation. New housing developments have been creeping down the hillsides from Bainbridge High School since the 1970s, and the club has been getting increasing numbers of complaints about noise coming from the practice ranges.

No one can recall any incident involving a stray bullet.

Bob King couldn't stop thinking about that bullet and how it could have gotten to his garage.

"I remembered the real estate agent who sold us the house a year ago telling me there was a shooting range over south of us somewhere, but I never gave it much thought," he said.

King got on the Internet and downloaded a satellite photo of his neighborhood. It showed that his house was almost directly due north of, and in the direct firing line of, the pistol range.

The range has a high berm of dirt behind the target area at the northernmost end. Someone would have had to fire a bullet over the top of the berm or the bullet would have had to skip on the dirt to get over the barrier and reach King's house, several officials said.

The bullet traveled some 2,200 feet through dense forest and undergrowth, narrowly missing two other houses just to the south of the Kings' on Laughing Salmon Lane.

King's photo shows that six houses are within a 10-degree arc from a line King drew north from the firing range, and 12 are within a 20-degree arc.

"I think it was just an accident," he said. "It sounds like somebody just aimed a bit higher than he should have. I haven't lost a minute's sleep over it."

Karen King says she is just glad nobody got hit by the bullet.

"But it's a wake-up call," she said.

That's not the way their neighbor John Green feels about it.

Green, president of the Brookfield Homeowners Association where the Kings and Greens live, said he didn't hear about the bullet until Sept. 3, and he immediately set up a meeting for 6 p.m. Friday at the Madison Avenue Fire Station to discuss the issue with city and Sportsmen's Club officials.

Green said he also plans to attend tonight's meeting of the Bainbridge Island City Council to discuss safety at the range.

"I don't believe that it was just a single round that got away one day," Green said. "I can't believe that's the only one that got away."

On Monday night, the Sportsmen's Club's officers decided to close the range to all shooting until it can install safety devices that will ensure that bullets can't escape. The devices, Omaits said, could include a concrete barrier along the east side of the range -- the west side already has one -- and an "eyebrow," a large metal deflecting screen, above the target area.

"It's not going to be a total roof, but the only way anybody would be able to get a round out of that range is to shoot straight up," Omaits said. "I can't see anybody shooting straight up."

The club also plans to require all of its members and anyone else who wants to use the range, including police officers, to go through a safety training course.

That's not enough to satisfy Green.

He said he feels the club should also place limits on the types of weapons that are allowed at the range.

"I am fairly comfortable in saying that the particular gun that was used to fire this bullet is a very powerful gun," Green said. "I don't know if we need that kind of weapon on a target range. To me, it's an egotistical kind of weapon to own. I think there should be a limitation on the power of the weapons people are allowed to use."

-----------------------------------------------

I'll let you guys rip this one apart, I'm too :cuss: ticked about it right now.

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feedthehogs
September 11, 2003, 02:54 AM
This story sounds fishy.
Do the math.

Sounds like another person who doesn't want a range near by either shot his own house or one of his neighbors shot his house.

The range has a high berm of dirt behind the target area at the northernmost end. Someone would have had to fire a bullet over the top of the berm or the bullet would have had to skip on the dirt to get over the barrier and reach King's house, several officials said.
.The bullet traveled some 2,200 feet through dense forest and undergrowth, narrowly missing two other houses just to the south of the Kings' on Laughing Salmon Lane.

Another magic bullet from the grassy knoll.


The slug found in the Kings' garage was a 9 mm Glock semiautomatic pistol bullet that was "consistent" in caliber and make with the ammunition being used by the firing range shooters, police said.

Gee I must have missed it when it was announced Glock was the only 9mm handgun out there. No mention of a ballistic matching report.

"I am fairly comfortable in saying that the particular gun that was used to fire this bullet is a very powerful gun," Green said. "I don't know if we need that kind of weapon on a target range. To me, it's an egotistical kind of weapon to own. I think there should be a limitation on the power of the weapons people are allowed to use."

This last quote is so stupid in content, no response is needed

cracked butt
September 11, 2003, 03:26 AM
How incredibly stupid are these people to build or buy a house that is less than a 1/2 mile downrange of a pistol/rifle range?

Majic
September 11, 2003, 05:09 AM
Not only stupid because he was told of the range before he bought the house and never went to check. He also have super hearing. While lying in his bed reading he heard the bullet rattling around on the floor. No mention of hearing it shatter thru the wall and 2 (?) drawers (how it shattered the backs of 2 drawers but no mention of the front is a mystery to me), just rattling around on the concrete floor. For 3/4 of a mile or roughly 1400 yards away that's mighty damn good for a 9mm.

Brian Dale
September 11, 2003, 05:54 AM
"I remembered the real estate agent who sold us the house a year ago telling me there was a shooting range over south of us somewhere, but I never gave it much thought," he said.

Neither did the developer or your architect, Mr. King.

OK, Mr. Green. Police, FFs and other citizens have been using that range for what, 60 years? Mr. and Mrs. King moved in ONE year ago. The housing development is FIVE years old. Fine. As the president of the Brookfield Homeowners Association, you've sworn an oath to uphold...what, exactly?

{Mr. Omaits, president of the club that owns the range, is panicking, with reason. He can't have reached his position by being anything other than absolutely on the side of safety. He's read about tidal waves. He knows he's about to be pilloried by a bunch of folks who've moved into the area. He tries to placate them. Wrong answer...}
That's not enough to satisfy Green.
"I am fairly comfortable in saying
{as if that were all it took!}
that the particular gun that was used to fire this bullet is a very powerful gun," Green said.
Yup, powerful enough to save a cop's life.
"I don't know if we need that kind of weapon on a target range. To me, it's an egotistical kind of weapon to own. I think there should be a limitation on the power of the weapons people are allowed to use." to protect their own lives, as they watch over you and yours. Now that's rich. :fire:

It's astonishing how complete was the assumption that this bullet came from the range. Certainly possible, but I'm with feedthehogs: it's a grassy knoll problem.

So one has to wonder, WHO is in a position to buy and develop the land between the range and the existing subdivision if, say, public outcry forced the Club to close the range? Yes, one would have to wonder that. And perhaps to follow the money.

And there's still Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. In this case, bad site selection.

NewShooter78
September 11, 2003, 06:25 AM
If the Homeowner's Association, or the subdivision developers want more saftey measures added to that range then they should have to pay for it. That range had been there 55 years before these housing subdivisions were there and they should have no right to play the ignorant card. There is always a chance for a stray or ricochet to end up outside of the range, no matter how safe any shooter is. It can happen. But shame on the developers for ignoring that fact and acting as if they can bully the range into acting any differently.

Devonai
September 11, 2003, 07:31 AM
Okay, now that I've calmed down a bit...

I'm sure that Mr. Green (almost the same name as the doc on ER who threw his $700 Sig into the Chicago river) would have referred to any firearm, regardless of caliber or appearance "egotistical." To him, a firearm is purely an extension of the Id and is therefore totally irrelevant to any kind of logical thinking. I'd like him to walk up to the nearest cop and tell him his sidearm is "egotistical." It would be pretty quiet around his neighborhood next time he calls 911.

I seriously doubt that such a ricochet is possible. No 9mm load on the planet has enough energy to travel that distance and penetrate a wall and two drawers and then hit the opposite wall. This reeks of a setup.


There are two stories out of Massachusetts, both of which I unfortunately have limited information about.

The first is the case of Camp Curtis Guild in Reading. The range there (which is beautiful, with resettable targets at 300 and 600 yards and an underground tunnel for walking back and forth without calling a ceasefire) has been silent for some years now. The story goes that a police officer firing a MP5 somehow sent one into the stratosphere, and it impacted somebody's home two miles downrange. I don't know if there was ever any proof beyond the resident's word, but the National Guard shut down the range, apparently permanently. Now the moving target stands are rusting away and the range is overgrown with weeds.

The second is the story of the Braintree Rod and Gun Club and Cara Donna Provision Company. I have spoken with both sides directly on this matter, and here's how I understand things. A Cara Donna employee claims that a round impacted his car while it was parked on CD's property. He was not in the vehicle at the time. No proof was ever presented to the authorities, but nonetheless Braintree Rod and Gun spent a great deal of money bolstering their backstops. They also reduced their number of high powered rifle ranges from two to one. This was done to placate CD and avoid a lawsuit.

Please let me know if any of this information is incorrect.

BogBabe
September 11, 2003, 07:43 AM
Capitalism Magazine did a good piece on the concept of Coming to the Nuisance (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=640). This is a classic example of this concept.

In my area, the folks who built homes around the airport are now complaining vociferously about the noise from the planes. Sorry folks -- you came to the nuisance, so siddown and shuddup!

keyhole
September 11, 2003, 07:48 AM
:fire: :cuss: :banghead:


Heard it before, but in that story, the homeowner had shot his own house, in an attempt to get support to close down a nearby range. An alert officer investigating it, found the casing, on the edge of the guys driveway.:what:

And people build next to airports, and then complain about the noise???:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

IAJack
September 11, 2003, 08:18 AM
Thank goodness one thing we do have good here in Iowa is a law that states once a shooting range is established and there 1st it has the right to stay there and cannot be contested or changed beacuse of urban sprawl.

I tend to be a conspiricy nut on this and think that the guy had someone put one through his garage on purpose (from a nearby location) just so he could complain about those nasty guns going off?

Hawkman
September 11, 2003, 08:36 AM
I wanna know what ammo the shooter was using - great penetration!

Must have been doing about, oh, 3000 fps out of the muzzle.:rolleyes:

fish2xs
September 11, 2003, 08:54 AM
yep those super powerful 9mm bullets produced by Glock are strong enough to shoot thru schools! or so I've read in the NY Times

Monte Harrison
September 11, 2003, 09:02 AM
The slug found in the Kings' garage was a 9 mm Glock semiautomatic pistol bullet that was "consistent" in caliber and make with the ammunition being used by the firing range shooters, police said. We need a "pegging the needle on the BS meter" smilie.

BogBabe
September 11, 2003, 09:03 AM
those super powerful 9mm bullets produced by Glock are strong enough to shoot thru schools!

And the recoil's enough to knock a man down! :rolleyes:

DorGunR
September 11, 2003, 09:17 AM
The sheeple got a police gun range shut down in Huntington Beach, CA by using this same tactic..........some guy said he found a .45 ACP round on his patio and said it came from the range. I've fired on that range and there ain't noway.....NO WAY.....that a round could have come from that range.:fire:

TallPine
September 11, 2003, 10:19 AM
Ever heard of a car running off the road and hitting someone's house?

Of course you have ... it happens now and then.

But I don't hear any calls to have all of the streets and highways closed down .... :confused:

C.R.Sam
September 11, 2003, 10:31 AM
From the data given...
Setup
Phony.

Sam

tiberius
September 11, 2003, 10:32 AM
see below

Andrew Rothman
September 11, 2003, 10:35 AM
If the Homeowner's Association, or the subdivision developers want more saftey measures added to that range then they should have to pay for it....There is always a chance for a stray or ricochet to end up outside of the range, no matter how safe any shooter is. It can happen. But shame on the developers for ignoring that fact and acting as if they can bully the range into acting any differently.

There's a difference between being pro-gun and being blind. You are blind.

The safety standard for a shooting range must be ZERO hunks of lead escaping the property. Adding the "eyebrow" and otherwise beefing up the backstops is not only prudent from a safety point of view, but from a political one.

Besides, you've probably spent enough time on shooting ranges to know that occasionally an idiot comes to shoot. It is unfortunate but true that the range owner must build to protect the neighbors from his worst-shooting customers, not his best.

Just remember that there are shades of grey in the world. The "gun" side of things might be 90% right, 90% of the time, but there's that pesky 10%.

Matt

tiberius
September 11, 2003, 10:40 AM
We need a "pegging the needle on the BS meter" smilie

I forget where I stole this from, but it is appropriate.


Now where do I find that 9mm ammo...good stuff.

http://home.comcast.net/~tristram777/bsmeter.gif

El Tejon
September 11, 2003, 10:43 AM
Someone is shooting his own residence.

foghornl
September 11, 2003, 10:45 AM
Something in this story is at least "half a bubble off level". Lets say ithe distance from firing line to garage wall is 2,200 feet---733 yards. In checking the Remington ballistic charts for 9MM Luger ammo, the hottest load is down to a bit over 1,000 feet persecond (1019 fps) at 100 yards. I don't have the formula to interpolate that out to 700 yards, but I suspect that the round wouldn't go through a "shake" wall, and then break 2 plastic storage drawers. A.H. ain't happenin'

gun-fucious
September 11, 2003, 11:06 AM
can you imagine what would have happened if the bullet came from a .45?
:banghead:

We had a similar incident in DC where in the Lorton police range warriors were shooting prone, up at targets and many rounds exited the range

The range was not designed for this shooting style

My Walton League chapter range was shut down when a 30 cal bullet was found on a window sill at a near by townhouse

Now there is a shoot house and 2 windows that only permits a few degrees of range targeting

Mike Irwin
September 11, 2003, 11:46 AM
2,200 feet is nothing for even a 9mm bullet.

That's not even 750 yards.

I don't see this as being a stretch at all, unfortunately.

I don't have my ballistics software here at work, but even at 750 yards I'm pretty sure the bullet would maintain enough velocity to penetrate a "shake wall."

Remember, a shake wall is a thin veneer of wood shingles over a thin piece of normally medium density fiberboard, with possibly some insulation on the interior, and probably drywall on the inside. Not much of a barrier.

It could, of course, be a set up, or the bullet could have come from elsewhere. It would be good to know exactly where the bullet came from. And that could be done fairly simply by tracing the trajectory, the evidence of which is left by the two holes in the inside and outside walls of the garage.


As for people pulling this crap to get ranges shut down, yep, that happens. The Fairfax County Issac Walton league range in Centreville has been having problems with its neighbors, even though Virginia is a pre-emption state. Some years ago a neighbor complained about a bullet going through the window of his house. Alert investigator who examined it proved, by examining the trajectory as it broke the storm and interior windows, that the story was a complete fabrication. Turns out that the person used a slingshot to fire the bullet through his window.

spacemanspiff
September 11, 2003, 12:06 PM
"I can't see anybody shooting straight up."
heh. i almost had my brother convinced he was the one who put the holes in the awning of the pistol range. heh.

4v50 Gary
September 11, 2003, 12:18 PM
I've seen two ranges closed b/c of "stray" bullets. Both were B.S. claims. :mad:

Hawkman
September 11, 2003, 01:19 PM
115gr at 1350 muzzle velocity is moving about 620fps at 750 yards. It has about 95 ft/lbs of energy. Bullet drop is 1077 inches or 89.75 feet.

BS BS BS BS!

NewShooter78
September 11, 2003, 01:19 PM
There's a difference between being pro-gun and being blind. You are blind.

The safety standard for a shooting range must be ZERO hunks of lead escaping the property. Adding the "eyebrow" and otherwise beefing up the backstops is not only prudent from a safety point of view, but from a political one.

Besides, you've probably spent enough time on shooting ranges to know that occasionally an idiot comes to shoot. It is unfortunate but true that the range owner must build to protect the neighbors from his worst-shooting customers, not his best.

Just remember that there are shades of grey in the world. The "gun" side of things might be 90% right, 90% of the time, but there's that pesky 10%.

Mpayne,
The developers decided to enter the area of the range. If there are any problems it is because they decided to develope there after the range had been there for many decades. I'm not blind, but putting the pressure on the range owners for a foreseeable problem the developers should have noticed is not right. The residents shouldn't blame the range for something that can and does happen at every range. They should be the ones to help work out a solution for the range and not force it to close down until it fixes it's problem. As for the validity of the claim in the first place, see all the other posts.

:rolleyes:

BrokenPaw
September 11, 2003, 01:45 PM
115gr at 1350 muzzle velocity is moving about 620fps at 750 yards. It has about 95 ft/lbs of energy. Bullet drop is 1077 inches or 89.75 feet. I don't know whether 95 ft-lbs of energy is sufficient to cause the damage discussed in the article, but 90 feet of bullet drop is not unreasonable, since it's 90 feet from the line the bullet was taking when it left the muzzle; if the shooter shot at an angle that would have put the bullet over the berm, it's possible that 90 feet of drop would have put it right in the garage.

I'm not saying that it's not a setup, but that bullet drop like Hawkman describes is not grounds to dismiss the possibility that King's story is legitimate.

The way I read the article, King isn't taking a particularly bad stance on the whole thing; if a bullet hit my house, you can bet I'd be wanting to find out why, too. But he said "I think it was just an accident. It sounds like somebody just aimed a bit higher than he should have. I haven't lost a minute's sleep over it."That doesn't sound like an anti's attitude to me...

I regularly find arrows with field points stuck into the ground or trees in the back part of my land. I took a look at their probable trajectory, and figured out that my next-door neighbour probably practices in his back yard, and occasionally misses his backstop. I wanted to know where they were coming from. Now that I know, I'm not losing sleep over it. Like Mr. King.

-BP

Andrew Rothman
September 11, 2003, 01:56 PM
The developers decided to enter the area of the range. If there are any problems it is because they decided to develope there after the range had been there for many decades. I'm not blind, but putting the pressure on the range owners for a foreseeable problem the developers should have noticed is not right. The residents shouldn't blame the range for something that can and does happen at every range. They should be the ones to help work out a solution for the range and not force it to close down until it fixes it's problem. As for the validity of the claim in the first place, see all the other posts.

So what exactly is a tolerable number of bullets escaping range property?

Grow up. You can't leave undeveloped a two-mile, 45-degree arc past the backstop of a shooting range. It's not practical. And in your world, no new shooting range would EVER be built, because the owners would have to buy a couple square miles of property behind their range.

No, I think putting up a higher backstop is pretty damn reasonable for the safety, legal and political protection it provides.

Matt

gun-fucious
September 11, 2003, 02:02 PM
The golf course on Connecticut Avenue in Chevy Chase DC has about 150 foot tall netting along the road, but there is a limit to how far up you can wack a ball with a stick.

Whats a gun range gonna do?

Make hardened shoot houses?

Mr. James
September 11, 2003, 02:11 PM
Wow - grew up a mile from there, just west of the high school.

I was astounded the Sportsmens Club was still open when I last visited Bainbridge Island at Christmas.

Mpayne, they built those houses next to a club which had functioned without incident for over half a century. Your point is taken, but if they were acting in good faith, the Homeowners Association would offer to defray the costs. I suspect this fool, Mr. Green, is just salivating at a chance to close 'em up for good. Their Wednesday night shoots were always a hoot - sounded like the invasion of Grenada. Probably just the thing to keep Mr. Green up nights.

This is like moving next to the dump and complaining of the stink. BS meter pegged.

Bruce H
September 11, 2003, 02:27 PM
Somebody needs to run a check to see if Mr. Green owns a 9mm. This looks pure set up with an eye on property developement.

durango
September 11, 2003, 03:33 PM
I can't find the reference but I remember reading a year or two ago about a lawsuit against a gun range brought on by someone who claimed their house was hit. It was a longer distance than the one discussed here (1.5 or 2 miles I think), but an ammunition manufacturer (Winchester I think) got involved and showed convincing evidence that the round in question could not have travelled from the range and cause the damage claimed. The case was dismissed.

If there is trouble brewing for the Bainbrige club they might want to get some input from the ammo companies since they have the data and have probably dealt with this before. If putting in a better backstop makes everyone happy, then they'll probably be best to just do it. Life ain't always fair, but there you are.

Andrew Rothman
September 11, 2003, 03:33 PM
Mpayne, they built those houses next to a club which had functioned without incident for over half a century.

There was no incident because no one minded the occasional stray bullet flying across undeveloped land.

A sloppily designed outdoor range is okay as long as the area isn't developed. But once it is, the range needs to step up and provide the safety measures that should have been there all along.

Matt

rock jock
September 11, 2003, 04:12 PM
There is always a chance for a stray or ricochet to end up outside of the range, no matter how safe any shooter is.
IOW, private property rights are unlimited, except when it comes to guns, then there should be exceptions. I guess, given the possible distance that high-powered rifle bullets can travel, no one should live within 7-8 miles downrange of a gun club. I guess the property owner of all the land downrange ought to just right off their investment, leave it undeveloped, essentially subsidizing the gun club.


Try your sentence with a few substitutions:

1. There is always a chance for a piece of burning debris to end up outside of a brush pit, no matter how safe any neighbor is.

Therefore, when your neighbor inadvertantly burns down your house, its your fault for building next door to someone who occasionally burns leaves. Also your fault for not having an extinguisher at the ready.


2. There is always a chance for a vicious dog to end up outside of their yard, no matter how safe any pet owner is.

Likewise, when your kid gets chewed on by a pit bull, remember that it is your fault.


I could go on but I think you see my point.

Daniel T
September 11, 2003, 04:16 PM
There is a range near Austin that is in danger of being shut down because of some dubious claims by a single landowner near the range.

This person's house is about 2500 ft. from the back of the property the range is on. This person "discovered" a spent .30ish round on his back porch. He claims this round entered the top of his garage, ricochetted off the cement floor, exited the top of the garage about a foot from where it entered, then came to rest on his porch. Err, sure thing. He also claims that a 1" deep dent in a metal fence post was caused by a bullet from the range, but that he can't locate the round that made it.

None of this person's neighbors report any problems. Also, did I mention that the area this person lives in has street signs that have been used for target practice? Yet, these rounds obviously came from the range. :rolleyes:

I doubt this ??? is even an anti. He probably sees what he thinks is a chance for some easy cash, to hell with anyone else.

MagKnightX
September 11, 2003, 04:24 PM
"I am fairly comfortable in saying that the particular gun that was used to fire this bullet is a very powerful gun," Green said. "I don't know if we need that kind of weapon on a target range. To me, it's an egotistical kind of weapon to own. I think there should be a limitation on the power of the weapons people are allowed to use."

*ahem.* I certainly will not deny that a 9mm Parabellum round can and usually will, if fired into a human being or other animal, kill. However, I have an issue with his statement. *cough cough*

AHAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAAHAAHAAAAA!
9mm Luger "very powerful?" Give me a break.

And of course, the whole "limitation on power" thing, and the "shouldn't be allowed at a target range, egotistical" BS.

Still, s**t like this never makes our sport look good.

Majic
September 11, 2003, 04:29 PM
Some of these numbers are not adding up to me. The range at first is 3/4 of a mile (or about 4000 feet) away from the King's house, but the bullet is supposedly to travel only 2200 feet some what. Exactly where is the firing line? If you rough guess the 3/4 mile figure, how do you come up with a figure like 2200 feet and not something like 2000 or 2500 feet? With the dense undergrowth and the berm you certainly can't see, so how was it measured? Was the flight path calculated by using the 2 bullet holes in the walls?
No matter where the firing line is, no bullet traveling that distance would have a flight path that would take it thru dense undergrowth. Hold over would dictate the flight path of the bullet to fly over the undergrowth and most trees.

Monkeyleg
September 11, 2003, 06:09 PM
Same thing happened with our club, except it was supposedly a .30 caliber rifle.

If there's any hint that someone wants to get the range shut down, get ballistics experts and attorney ASAP.

We were fortunate in that the police chief only demanded range officers on duty at all times, even though we had a ballistics expert say the round couldn't have come from our range. Other ranges haven't been so fortunate.

rbrowning
September 11, 2003, 08:09 PM
I just ran through the Sierra Infinity ballistics program what the MAXIMUM range would be for a Winchester 9mm 115gr FMJ round at 1190FPS would be. The results come with the muzzle inclined up at a 30 degree angle and the bullet comes down 1884 YARDS latter. I have shot at a lot of ranges and I have never seen a berm that went up that high. I have seen holes in the roof. I have seen dead trees that were bullet riddled at the top of a 30 foot berm behind the 100 yard back stop (approximately 5.7 degrees). But I have never seen an outdoor range that could contain an errant round.

At one local range there was a situation similar to this with a new neighbor. Fortunately the investigating officer noticed that the bullet hole in the wall was going up and not down. The last I knew the range owner counter sued.

Fortunately most shooters are extremely careful and when something does go wrong the consequences aren't as bad as they could have been. But when you have as many cartridges fired per year as we do in this country, eventually something will go wrong.

Standing Wolf
September 11, 2003, 08:39 PM
The slug found in the Kings' garage was a 9 mm Glock semiautomatic pistol bullet that was "consistent" in caliber and make with the ammunition being used by the firing range shooters, police said.

People who can't trouble themselves to get the facts straight shouldn't try to masquerade as journalists.

JohnKSa
September 11, 2003, 11:19 PM
Well, I'm not going to argue one way or the other, but as far as I can see there is nothing impossible or unbelievable about the claims of the homeowner.

A 9mm will most certainly go that far.

A 9mm will most certainly retain enough energy to penetrate a wall at that distance. I shoot airguns--650 fps is a typical STARTING velocity and the pellets are MUCH lighter than a 9mm bullet, and they will penetrate a surprising amount. 115 grains at 400-500fps will definitely make it through a light wall which is what a shake wall is.

I have seen shooters, especially new shooters, accidentally squeeze off a second round while the gun is in recoil. I had a coworker do this with my .44 mag revolver--I try not to think about where the bullet went.

I've also heard of autopistols doubling which typically results in the second round being fired at a pretty steep upward angle.

Lastly, I could tell you in a second whether or not a 9mm fired bullet came from a Glock or not. Anyone who's seen a bullet fired from a Glock knows that it looks VERY different from a bullet fired from a typical land & groove barrel.

So, the guy may have set the whole thing up, but he hasn't done anything that's going to prove he's faking it--at least not as far as I can see.

They recently made a local range put up a cover that would deflect rounds fired high enough to clear the berm back down into the ground. The cover doesn't have to go that far down the range if you work out the angles. It was either that or they were going to close him down.

Double Naught Spy
September 11, 2003, 11:32 PM
Maybe the round did come from the range. As with the noted 90 foot bullet drop over the 2200 ft. distance, the bullet would not have traveled that far with a flat trajectory. So the bullet would have been launched over the berm like an artillery round. Taking the arc into consideration, that bullet would not have traveled all that far through the trees and vegetation of at all. It would have traveled OVER the trees and vegetation, at least over the majority of the distance. Depending on how close the vegetation is from the homeowner's home, it may have traveled through some of the vegetation if the vegetation is close, or through none of it.

For those who doubt 9 mm would travel that far, keep in mind that the Artillery Luger came with an 8" barrel and a rear sight calibrated to 800 meters.

One bothersome aspect of the damaged home (aside from there being no ballistics done on the bullet to compare it against the gun(s) the fireman was using) is that there is no indication that anyone checked the angle of the bullet's penetration holes. Determining the angle of entry could rule out the round coming from the range if the angle is 90 degrees off from the wall. There is no way a round from the range would have a flat trajectory.

One other bothersome aspect is that the bullet was said to have penetrated the wall about about 5' above the ground. That would be about the right height of where guns are commonly held for shooting while standing, say in your typical weaver, isoceles, or one-handed shooting. Coincidence?

C.R.Sam
September 11, 2003, 11:46 PM
My first post said that in light of the data presented......phony.
Not enough to work with but.
Thinkin at the keyboard.....
Was it a two car or single car garage;
If single car and bullet entered at 5" from ground and struck opposite wall at floor level.....after goin through wall and plastic....final angle would be around 22 degrees. With a slow bullet.
If double car then the angle would be around 12 degrees.
I think that at either reported distance, the final trajectory would be steeper.

Re keepin the rounds on the range.
I have shot at two outdoor handgun and rifle ranges that had overhead baffles that kept the rounds on the property....even from prone position.
El Monte Ca. and the international range at Chino Ca.

I am still leanin toward set up in the case of the wounded house.

Sam

Mal H
September 12, 2003, 12:08 AM
But Sam, and others who think it was a setup, why would Bob King, the home owner, have a couldn't-care-less attitude about it? "I think it was just an accident," he said. "It sounds like somebody just aimed a bit higher than he should have. I haven't lost a minute's sleep over it." It wasn't until the homeowner's association busybody got involved that the thing got blown out of proportion. (Gawd, I hate homeowner's associations. I've never heard of any good that comes out of them.)

Like JohnKSa and the DNS, I have no doubt that a 9mm could easily go that far and do the damaged attributed to it. As far as the Glock ammo statement, we have to remember that the statement is that of a reporter twit (who probably wouldn't know a Glock from a clock) repeating the statements made to him/her by the police who did examine the bullet and could legitimately come to the conclusion they did.

As gun-fucious mentioned, almost precisely the same thing happened in this area. The range was at fault and fixed the problem. As I recall, the distance was even greater than the 700+ yards in this story.

C.R.Sam
September 12, 2003, 12:13 AM
Mal....mayhap the homeowner not in on it. Could have been done by other with an agenda.

Lots of iffs n ands n mabys.

Sam

Mal H
September 12, 2003, 12:25 AM
That's for dang sure. And we aren't gonna get any real answers from a newspaper article.

kenehsr
September 12, 2003, 01:20 AM
Do you smell that???? I smell it.......Yep! Thats BS alright.
:cuss:
:banghead: :fire:

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