This is mostly a summary of Jerry Kuhnhausen's excellent book; "The S&W Revolver - A Shop Manual".
The pre-checklist in the book and the checkout stickied in the revolver forum are helpful preliminary & diagnostic steps before beginning disassembly.
Ok, let's roll ..
Sideplate screws removed. The first two screws, from left to right, are identical. The last is the 'Yoke Screw Assembly':
Strikeline in red. Light blows with the hammer handle set up vibrations to drive the sideplate off. Thumb lightly in place to ensure that the sideplate does not spring off and hit the floor. Mine was tight and needed a dozen smacks:
Hammer Block Safety in red. Easily removed by lifting it out. Take a look at the corrosponding guideways in your sideplate:
Holding the cylinder while sliding out the yoke:
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October 1, 2008, 10:12 PM
These pics were taken after S&W did the action work (mostly polishing stuff and replacing the mainspring).
Removing the mainspring tension screw. To remove the mainspring, lift it out at the bottom of the frame and carefully unhinge it from the hammer stirrup:
Hammer stirrup (red dot) rotated up in preperation for removal. Take care not to force it. If it hangs up while trying to rotate it, just back off and push it close to the hammer, then rotate it up:
Once it is rotated up, it slides right off the hammer:
If you want to see how things work inside, reinstall the yoke, cylinder and lightly seat the yoke screw (in red). Push down as shown to seat things properly. It locked up on me a couple times until I figured this out :p:
October 1, 2008, 10:13 PM
Removing the hammer while holding the trigger back. Holding the trigger back allows the hammer to slip past the 'hand'. (To remove the hammer with the cylinder out, just pull the thumbpiece back).:
Removed the locking flag. The little nub on top is what locks the hammer. The little nub can be ground flat to disable the lock, if you so desire. Be aware, S&W will not sell locking flags, but they will install one if you send the gun to them.:
So far .. :
Rebound spring removal tool. (Note, the rebound spring is tricky to re-install . I used a deburred flat-head screwdriver to do so). This tool is made by Wheeler Engineering, #641106. (Brownells carries a different model eqipped with a handle).:
Pressing in and carefully lifting the rear of the rebound to just before it clears the frame pin:
A couple cursewords and a de-funkification of the spring after a crash landing behind the dryer and the rebound spring is now ready for picture posing :rolleyes::
So far .. :
October 1, 2008, 10:15 PM
Trigger assembly removal. The hand has a spring residing within the trigger which pushes the hand foreward toward the muzzle. Gently pull the hand out of the frame window and work the trigger & hand up and out as one unit. The trigger lever may flop around or fall out.:
Trigger assembly with hand and trigger lever:
Trigger lever removal. It fits into a slot in the back of the trigger:
Trigger lever. Note, the little ball end (on the left) is what interfaces with the socket on the rebound slide.:
October 1, 2008, 10:16 PM
Cylinder stop and spring removal. Press the cylinder stop down and hold it with your fingernail. (I grew mine out just for this:p):
Get a thin screwdriver (should deburr edges of screwdriver to keep from marking stuff up) and slide it underneath the cylinder stop and slowly work it up. If your careful you can catch the spring against the frame rather than launching it:
Cylinder stop and spring. Onward and upward!:
Removed the thumbpiece nut:
October 1, 2008, 10:17 PM
Lifting off the thumbpiece:
Take a look at the 'cylinder bolt' before removal. Note the pivot end is inside of the recoil plate, so take care not to bend it while removing.
In the picture I'm pushing the hammer-stop portion of the cylinder bolt backwards and easing it out of the frame towards the camera.
If your careful you can catch the plunger against the frame and lessen the risk of launching it and the spring:
Cylinder bolt with spring and plunger (the protrusion on the left of the cylinder bolt itself is referred to as the 'hammer stop', on the far right is the 'pivot' and on the back is where the thumbpiece nut threads to)
October 1, 2008, 10:18 PM
Using the 'bugger scoop' tool to lift out the end of the lock spring. Once it's off a bit, just walk it out the rest of the way.:
Used the lock key provided with the gun to get the lock cam centered and used a flat head screwdriver to slide the locking fork toward the muzzle.:
The locking cam plops right out:
There 'tis (the locking cam thing):
October 1, 2008, 10:20 PM
Sliding out the locking fork:
Safety lock assembly. :scrutiny: (Looks like it could summon unholy spirits or something):
Firing pin retaining pin slips out easily with some tweezers:
Firing pin and firing pin spring.
October 2, 2008, 02:06 AM
That's it for now. I've got a few tools coming from Brownells for the inspection part of the thread.
October 2, 2008, 02:09 AM
Nicely nicely. Good, clear and well lit photos too. Thank you.
How do you like the 10? How does it shoot?
October 2, 2008, 02:24 AM
Thank you, MartinS. Most welcome. :)
It's a stretch for me to reach the trigger proper, but with small grips it's feeling better. I'd say it ranks as fair/ok (for this day and age) as far as overall build quality. The barrel face had a litle metal rolled off the left side, making for a sharp edge and is not perfectly square to the bore or cylinder. It shoots a tight group, but prints a little to the right. The trigger frame pin is slightly bent down which cocks the trigger over to the left a little bit and the there is a small chunk out of the frame near the hammer opening.
As noted, there was quite a bit of rust inside.
S&W took the edge off the barrel face but did not set the barrel back and true the barrel face (I should have asked them to).
They must have missed the trigger pin being bent (I did too) when doing the action work.
I didn't say anything about the chunk and neither did they.
They did get most of the rust out and the action work was pretty nice.
It's currently submerged in an oil bath while I wait for some tools to show up.
October 2, 2008, 02:44 AM
I'd like to add a note:
I'm not super familiar with revolvers, so when I was taking stuff apart I would often times put them right back in again to commit the procedure to memory.
As an example, when I popped the sideplate and pulled out the hammer block, I went and put it all back together again and tested function just to make myself sure.
Did the same thing with the rebound slide. And hammer. And trigger.
Thanks for these... :cool: I was thinking I might want to start working on my smiths but now I know I'm not smart enough... :scrutiny:
October 2, 2008, 08:28 PM
October 2, 2008, 09:15 PM
If this doesn't get stickied there is no hope for mankind.
October 2, 2008, 09:42 PM
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this post. It's very helpful. I've recently been tinkering with my revolvers. I purchased the Kuhnhausen book and this thread is a great supplement.
I am going to save this link.
October 2, 2008, 10:00 PM
1KPerDay, if I can do it, anybody can. Like I said, I reassemble nearly every part or assembly to keep myself in check. I'm a little verbose, so maybe that makes it seem harder than it really is.
parisite & .38 Special, thanks for the votes of confidence. I'd hope if I screw something up royally that this thread would disappear into obscurity rather than be stickied! :p
NCBeagle, thanks for the kind words, just defer to Kuhnhausen before me, I do! :D
October 2, 2008, 10:06 PM
That is great.
October 3, 2008, 02:44 AM
Another vote for "sticky" material!! Great instruction!!
RON in PA
October 3, 2008, 05:55 AM
Thanks for the thread.
October 3, 2008, 08:26 AM
Thank you Mr. Williams.
Mick, thank you.
Ron, most welcome and thanks.
October 5, 2008, 03:26 AM
Frame pins (4) highlighted in red. All except the trigger pin appear smooth and straight. Since S&W has already done the action job, I'm just going to leave the trigger pin alone. Maybe one day I'll grab some new parts, straighten out that pin and do the action job myself.:
Rolled metal edge on safety lock hole. Since some of the edge is breaking free, I'll clean it up.:
I know, I know :rolleyes: I was very careful! :D:
Used a round file to clean up the inside of the hole after using the dremel.:
October 5, 2008, 03:27 AM
A chunk out of the frame near the hammer slot and a span of thin and weak metal that breaks away under the fingernail. It wouldn't be good to have this possibly end up in the action.:
The thin metal span was rounded so I used the dremel to flatten the span so I could get the file to it.:
Flat file with safe edges. Not much room to work.:
Polishing up with a felt wheel and polishing compound. Verified there is no metal rolled over to block the hammer's access to the firing pin or in the notch where the sideplate tab fits.:
October 5, 2008, 03:28 AM
Carefully filed a raised edge by the damaged area and blended it as best as I could.:
Inspecting the firing pin bore, pivot bore and hand slot for burrs. Looks good.:
Cylinder stop slot looks good too.:
Put the yoke into the frame (without yoke screw). It swings smoothly, so nothing needed here.:
October 5, 2008, 03:29 AM
The portion of the frame where the rebound slide, um, slides. If I had a stone I might try and clean the surface up a little bit, but it's ok. The contact marks indicate even contact with the rebound slide.:
The roll pin that locates the grips is sticking out a little more on the right than the left :p:
Brownells 1/8" roll pin punch (has a little pilot that fits into the roll pin) and a couple light taps sets things aright.:
Checking the hammer block for trueness.:
October 5, 2008, 03:30 AM
Checking the hammer block for trueness part 2. It's good to go.:
Cleaned and Inspected the sideplate. The hammer block moves smoothly and sets slightly below flush in the guideway. All good.:
I don't have a Smith and Wesson. I can't wait for your next lesson. This is gunkrankism of the worst sort.
October 6, 2008, 12:09 AM
Uh, thanks MartinS, I think :D
October 8, 2008, 07:25 AM
Lewis Lead Remover Kit.:
I forgot to mention; inspect the thin area of frame underneath the barrel threads for any cracks. Preparing to clean the forcing cone with the Lewis Kit.:
Brownells 080-617-038 Range Rod Combo (Service). Used for testing barrel & barrel/cylinder alignment.:
Close up of the range rod head. Service and Match sized heads available. The heads thread onto the rod. Since this is a factory barrel I'm just using the service size.:
October 8, 2008, 07:26 AM
Testing barrel alignment with the range rod. It's good. (Later I'll use this tool to check the cylinder alignment).:
Very tight fit! I had to clean inside the yoke barrel very thoroughly, lightly lubricate and tap the alignment tool in (and out) with the brass/plastic hammer.:
Yoke and yoke screw in place for alignment test.:
October 8, 2008, 07:27 AM
Hard to see, but the alignment gauge is showing that it is ever so slightly off to the 9 o'clock position (as viewed from the front). If this were over the same amount in the 3 o'clock position, it would be acceptable.:
A couple smacks with the plastic side of the hammer with the yoke in the fully extended position and alignment tool in place.:
Exactly centered! Note: For up/down adjustments, there is a simple tool shaped like a wedge. For left/right adjustments, any non-marring hammer can be used.:
Yoke function & endshake check. The 'Yoke Barrel Flange' is in acceptable contact with the frame and no yoke endshake detected. For yoke endshake correction, please see the Kunhausen book and the thread by THR member, machinisttx, http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=18&t=63290 .:
October 8, 2008, 09:20 AM
Here's the yoke terminology.:
Close up of the 10-14 yoke and yoke screw assembly. I believe S&W went from the older style, solid yoke screw to the yoke screw 'assembly' for models 10-9 and thereafter. The assembly has a pointed pilot that rides on a spring within the screw. If yoke endshake developes in these later models, I'd guess (but I'm not sure) that it could be corrected in much the same way as the older ones, with the exception of using a larger yoke screw, as it seems no oversized yoke screw assembly currently exists.:
October 8, 2008, 09:29 AM
More to follow in a few days!
Truing the yoke face, disassembly & inspection of the cylinder parts, cylinder endshake check, cylinder endshake bearing installation, ..
Any input and critique is definitely welcome. I'm no editor, photographer or gunsmith, so if you have advice or see anything to improve or edit, please let me know. Thanks!
October 8, 2008, 10:18 AM
This is without a doubt one of the best threads I've ever seen - thank you.
I was just getting ready to do some action work on my 63 and the info & photos are invaluable...
October 8, 2008, 03:01 PM
I also think this is one of the coolest threads I've seen! You say you are neither a gunsmith or a photographer...I'm sure most of here vehemently disagree on both counts! Fantastic photos - and the red highlights really make the info pop out.
I love Smith revolvers and I'm fascinated by all the detail. but like many others here, I won't be trying this at home any time soon.
I look forward to the next installments.
October 8, 2008, 08:49 PM
Thanks for thel lesson...Mike
October 9, 2008, 02:42 AM
Wow, continued awesome instruction!! http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/bows.gif http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/bows.gif
Looks like the "pinned" thread is ready to have another step added to it! ;) Hope the mods continue to accomodate you, and update the pinned thread as needed.. It would be a shame to let ANY of these lessons slip off the main page and into the archives.. :)
October 9, 2008, 05:35 PM
NGIB, thank you for the kind words. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know.
rainbowbob, aww shucks, thanks!
Big Mike, your most welcome!
Mickstix, hehe! Thanks!
Mr. Williams told me to let him know when the thread is finished up and he'll update the sticky.
Just want to send props out to Jerry Kuhnhausen. If it weren't for his book, I doubt I'd have been able to do this.
October 11, 2008, 07:06 PM
Mr. Williams told me to let him know
I didn't know you talked to my dad:), I will have to find him.
It is Brian, and this is a great thread. If only someone loved Colts as much to do the same.
After a couple twists with the facing tool (using lube), I deburred the edge with 600 grit E-Z Flex.:
All trued up.
Trimming the yoke barrel face creates cylinder endshake, so now I need to install cylinder endshake bearings inside the cylinder.:
Disassemble & Inspect Cylinder & Extractor Assemblies :
Found this extractor rod tool at gunsmithing-tools.com . Brownells carries one that fits multiple revolver models.:
October 12, 2008, 12:02 PM
Prepped the tool by taking it apart and adding a little bit of lube to the washer and pre-tightening it until it would no longer slide onto the extractor rod, then backing it off so it would. Here it's shown mounted as close as possible to the cylinder and 3 fired cases inserted for supporting the extractor star. Modern day S&W extractor rods are left-hand threaded, so "righty loosey".:
Thoroughly cleaned the cylinder & extractor parts.
From the left, starting from the top: Extractor, Cylinder, Center Pin, Center Pin Spring, Extractor Spring, Extractor Rod Collar, Extractor Rod.:
Checking the center pin and extractor rod for straightness. The rod has ~0.002 wobble which I'll have to live with since I don't have any tools precise enough to do the job. (It works fine as is). The center pin rolls smoothly across an old hard-drive disk.:
Reassemble cylinder & extractor assemblies with cylinder endshake bearing :
Assemble the extractor rod + collar and center pin + spring and set it aside.:
October 12, 2008, 12:03 PM
Dropping the cylinder endshake bearing into the cylinder.:
A couple drops of lube and seating the bearing with the yoke.:
While the yoke is still in, insert the extractor. Go easy as so you don't beat up the bearing.:
Remove the yoke. Make sure the bearing didn't come with it. Shown is the shaft of the extractor.:
October 12, 2008, 12:04 PM
While holding the extractor in with your finger, slide the extractor spring into the cylinder. The spring fits over the extractor shaft. Twist the spring like your screwing it in to ease it's passage.:
Don't forget like me and wonder why everything won't go back together :o Left-hand threads!:
Assembled! Extractor star seats flush, does not protrude into the charge holes and has very slight side-to-side and up-and-down play.:
Need to temporarily reinstall the cylinder bolt. Shown is the cylinder bolt plunger and spring.:
October 12, 2008, 12:05 PM
With the spring and plunger installed into the cylinder bolt, slide it into the frame, hammer stop end first.:
Push it back far enough to let the pivot clear the frame then press it down and guide the pivot into its bore.:
There it is.:
The pivot is flush.:
October 12, 2008, 12:06 PM
Cylinder function check and gauging :
Install the yoke, cylinder and yoke screw. Push the extractor rod a few times to make sure it operates smoothly. Push the cylinder in and out of the frame and check that everything is smooth and locks up proper at the pivot and locking bolt ends and that the cylinder turns smoothly in and out of the frame.:
While testing, I noticed it wouldn't close very smoothly in a small range of the cylinder's rotation. I traced it to the end of the extractor rod where a small portion of the bevel angle was too steep and would hang up on the locking bolt. Had to take everything back down and make up a little turning jig (really wished for a lathe) to file a better 45 degree angle. Shown is my 'not-perfect' filed bevel, but the drag is gone. Also shown, the center pin is flush with the end of the extractor rod when pushed in flush from the cylinder end (used a large pin punch).:
Extractor rod/locking bolt overlap around 0.125 or 1/8". Good to go.:
Brownells 080-633-668 Cylinder Gauge. (Also known as a headspace gauge) 0.68 No-Go, 0.60 Go.:
October 12, 2008, 12:08 PM
Headspace check must be made from the right side (sideplate side) only. The No-Go side of the gauge should not fit between the firing pin bushing and the cylinder. Checked 6 times, once over each charge hole.:
Go gauge passed all 6 times.:
Barrel face squareness + cylinder gap and endshake measurements using common feeler gauges.
To check for squareness, take measurements from both sides. First while pushing the cylinder toward the muzzle, then while pulling it back. Subtract the gap measurements from either side to determine endshake.
I have 0.007 and 0.008 measurements on one side and 0.008 and 0.009 on the other. So that's 0.001 endshake, which is perfect, but the barrel face is not square (visually apparant) and the gap is at or near max tolerance. I'm going to get the tools to square up the barrel face and I'll post some before and after chronograph results. Anyhow..:
October 12, 2008, 03:53 PM
Insert firing pin with spring. The notched part of the firing pin faces down.:
While holding the firing pin in, insert the firing pin retaining pin. It's only seated with finger pressure and it's done.:
If you decide to install the lock parts, stick the fork in as shown. Since the tang part of the fork was likely bent a little bit during removal, install it with the tang bend facing out to ease spring install. Slide it toward the muzzle with a screwdriver to clear the hole for the lock cam.:
Lock cam slips right in.:
October 12, 2008, 05:32 PM
Slide the fork against the cam to ease spring install.:
Prop the spring up and catch the fork's tang with it.:
Work the spring onto the tang with your finger or a screwdriver.:
Finish up by pressing the spring down firmly into its recess.:
October 12, 2008, 05:33 PM
There 'tis. Can you tell I got hold of some stones? Killed a stupid ridge along the slideplate junction!:
Set the locking flag into its recess in the frame. Note the notch (yellow circle); this is where you can stick a needle or safety pin to catch the flag spring and nudge it into the small recessed slot in the frame (red line).:
Cylinder bolt install, pic 1. Stick a little lube in there to help the plunger slide against the frame as the pivot end of the cylinder bolt is lowered into place.:
Install thumbpiece. Just snug it down, don't torque it :):
Set the cylinder stop on its frame pin with the spring captured against the frame.:
Coerced into its place by a deburred flat-head screwdriver.:
A little nudge to the end of the spring to get it sqaure to the stop and it's done.:
October 12, 2008, 05:36 PM
Trigger and hand with trigger lever pushed up prior to installation.:
Carefully pull the hand back while installing the trigger on its frame pin.:
October 12, 2008, 06:27 PM
Rear view of rebound slide. S&W did work on this. All edges and corners are rounded and polished smooth.:
Another view of the rear of the rebound slide. Note that the edges on the outside or sideplate side of the rebound slide are unfooledaroundwith. I guess that's just fine so long as there is no edge contact with the sideplate.:
The backside or frame side of the rebound slide was formed with a rounded lower edge and S&W rounded and polished the front corner edges.:
Medium-Fine India stone in the background and Fine-Fine India stone in the fore. Schleping some honing oil on.:
:eek: Just polishing up the bottom is all :D :
Not going to go any farther even though those couple low places are bugging me. Go too far and end up with the frame pin striking the rebound slide=ruination! I restrained m'self, thankfully.:
Cleaned up and ready to install. Showing the front of the rebound slide. On the very top is the rebound's hammer seat, in the middle is the nose, on bottom is the socket where the trigger lever ball rides.:
October 12, 2008, 06:30 PM
Since things are slicked up, I'm going to go with a lighter rebound spring. (After testing, I switched it for a 12lb. spring. Might even go to an 11lb. later).:
Preparing to use a flat head screwdrive to push the sping in. Got a box set up to catch the spring in case it slips.:
If you hold your mouth just right and say a prayer to the spring god, you can push the rebound down while pushing in with the screwdriver. The rebound's frame pin will push the screwdriver out of the way and the spring will catch against the frame pin (in theory of anyway :rolleyes:). The lower part of the spring's coil is on the post but the top is off, threatening that it will launch itself.:
Using just the lower corner of the screwdriver's tip to push the top part of the coil clear while pushing down on the rebound.:
Hammer stirrup install; rotate it down to complete.:
October 12, 2008, 06:33 PM
With the mainspring sorta lying parallel to the frame, finesse the mainspring into the stirrup first, then guide it into the grip.:
With the main spring centered squarely in the grip, tighten down the strain screw.:
Make sure to remove the yoke screw if it's in.:
Hammer block shown in its 'at rest' position. It is set onto the pin that's attached to the rebound slide. Make sure to push it all the way up between the hammer and frame.:
October 12, 2008, 06:35 PM
It's actually easier to install the sideplate with the gun tilted so that the hammer block does not slip out of its 'at rest' position. If it shifts it will block the sideplate from seating correctly. The hammer block needs to fit within its guideways on the sideplate.
This pic is just to show the tab at the top of the sideplate, which goes into the frame first.
After the top tab is in, press the sideplate in at the yoke screw end, then press it down in the middle while working toward the grip, pressing as you go. If you feel like it's catching, it's probably hitting the hammer block. Pop the plate as shown at the beginning of the thread and try again. If you have a real tight sideplate like I do, practice without the hammer block installed until you get a good feel for it. The shiney metal was from stoning away a ridge on the frame and sideplate.:
October 14, 2008, 01:58 AM
Here's a pic of 'er all in one piece.
I've taken it down a good four times after dry fire sessions for cleaning n' lube and found a few more things to tinker with, so I'll try and detail those 'fixes' soon.
Hopefully it won't be too long for the forcing cone cut + velocity comparison and I'm looking into using a jig for barrel setback as well as some other nifty jobbers.
October 14, 2008, 02:14 AM
Awesome! I was pleased to see it finished with the original stocks and T-Grip.
How's it shoot?
October 14, 2008, 02:27 AM
I haven't shot it since going into it. It will probably bug me to no end to see it hitting to the right :p so I'll just shoot it through the chrono and not think about hitting anything until I set the barrel back and get the sights lined up proper (they over-torqued the barrel :rolleyes:).
November 21, 2008, 03:08 PM
Great work! I've always wondered how and if I could work on my revolvers.
Have you done anything yet with the shiney metal on the sideplate?
November 25, 2008, 01:56 AM
At the feet of a Master.
Do you assemble all the parts dry or is there some lube I do not see?
November 26, 2008, 12:15 AM
A tip about rebound spring installation I have discovered:
If you don't have the specialized tool, the next best option is a small center punch - one small enough to fit inside the spring cylinder buy not too small so as to pass down the center of the spring. A tapered one works well as it catches on the spring even if the tip is smaller than the spring center. You can depress the spring nicely with this, without fear of your tool sliding or popping out sideways because of the spring tension, losing your spring or scratching your work. Once past the post, you just push it down with your thumb. For those not following, what I am suggesting is a punch like the first one pictured in the Wikipedia entry:
Thanks for this post - nice job.
November 29, 2008, 06:16 PM
This was the most informative post I have ever seen on the entire internet. Thank you very much.
December 18, 2008, 07:41 PM
aHFo3, S&W actually replaced the frame when it was sent in for repair (broken hammer stud) so now it looks great, though I still plan to duracoat it.
Thanks for the compliment.
MartinS, shucks, thanks. I'm always slopping around in ATFluid, so a small amount gets rubbed on the parts during handling.
Oro, I couldn't view the wikipedia page, but it sounds like a good idea, thanks for sharing and your welcome.
boatguy, thanks for that and your welcome.
S&W replaced the frame, turned the barrel back proper and recut the forcing cone. Kudos to S&W for treating a customer good.
Probably just as well that I don't get into setting a barrel back without a lathe or experience :uhoh:
Bead blast should be done after Christmas followed by some duracoating :)
A fellow may be looking for help with the hand spring, which I'll try and detail here.
December 22, 2008, 02:13 AM
Trigger & Hand Assembly Detail
Shown in red is the short leg of the hand spring.:
Hand spring orientation.:
From the rear of the trigger, the long leg of the hand spring is shown in yellow. It rides in front of the smaller diameter hand pin and is under tension. The short leg of the spring (not shown) is in its recess. The main coils (yellow zig-zag) are set in a cupped seat.:
View of the hand pins and trigger.:
December 22, 2008, 02:16 AM
Hand spring going in. Guide the short leg into the recess and the main coils into the seat. Note: The spring is retained by its seat in the trigger and the pressure exerted on it by its legs when assembled. There's no pins going through the main coils.:
Using a 1/8" brass punch to align the coils in its seat. Note the long leg is along the right wall in the trigger.:
Some duct tape on a 1x2 holding the hand + lowering the trigger over the hand pins while depressing the long spring leg with the punch. Push the long spring leg in far enough so that it will exert on the smaller diameter hand pin when assembled.:
Verify the hand has spring tension directing it toward the front of the trigger. The full fore and aft movement is about 90 degrees. Mine locks in place when when pulled fully aft. I notice the end of the long leg drags on the main hand pin when its in the fore position but this doesn't seem to be a problem.
Best regards and merry Christmas to all.
December 27, 2008, 11:01 PM
Actually, I take back what I said about setting the barrel back. I could have probably used this:
A four-inch barrel is a little too long for me to mobilize and sit with comfortably, so I decided to hack a little off. I started to look for a nice bandsaw, but right now there's just no room (or money) for it, so I went with using a hacksaw. I bought some fresh blades at the local Northern Tool and ended up only needing to use one blade to get through the barrel. The blade is a Lenox Thin Metal 32 TPI Bi-Metal 232HE. This honey is still sharp too.
I wanted to plug the bore to keep out the chips and ended up putting an X-Ring rubber bullet in backwards a little over 3/4" down the bore.:
I used an LE Wilson case holder for a visual reference and sometimes as a physical guide for helping keep the blade somewhat aligned. A tiny machined square likely would have served better.:
About two-thirds of the way down I started to angle the cut away from the muzzle a bit, but some filing done after this pic set it back to (mostly) square.:
To see if I was done cutting, I cleaned it up, put it back together and toted it around a bit. I was able to sit down without the muzzle hitting the seat. Draw speed and balance are much improved.:
The barrel is about 3.2" now, and will probably be around 3.1" after facing, crowning, some file radiusing and final polishing.
Time to order up the cutters!
(update coming soon)
December 29, 2008, 10:11 AM
January 1, 2009, 12:39 PM
Wow! Sylvan-Forge, you posess a great deal of talent and fearlessness. Many thanks for this thread. I'm currently awaiting Miculek's trigger-job DVD from Midway and your photos and descriptions make it clear that I can do this. Looking forward to seeing the finished barrel.
January 28, 2009, 04:48 PM
seapeers, you're welcome.
TheotherMikeG, Though undeserved, I do appreciate the kind words and you're welcome! Best of luck on the trigger job!
January 28, 2009, 04:52 PM
Time to square up the rough cut and filing done previously.
Shown is a 90-degree 1" rifle facing cutter (Brownells 080586910), brass .38 pilot (080944380), and cutter handle (080589000). The little allen screw locks the pilot inside the cutter.:
Facing cutter ready to go.:
I used ATfluid in place of cutting fluid. I had to stop often and clean out the chips from the cutter, wipe off the muzzle and blow air down the bore to be sure it was clear of chips. Here's the finished cut.:
Now it's time to cut some kind of crown. Shown is the same cutter handle and brass pilot along with an 11-degree (aka 79-degree) 3/4" crowning cutter (080586750).:
January 28, 2009, 04:53 PM
Crowning cutter all set.:
Much like cutting the face square, I had to stop often and clean out the cutter and bore. After one of the last cuts I found a slight gouge out of two of the lands about 1/4" down where a chip got caught between the pilot and bore. I should have been more patient, more thorough, and probably should have obtained a seperate pilot for this operation. Live and learn :o
I read somewhere about a fellow doing a crown cut and he used a progressively lighter pressure for each cutting session to obtain a smooth finish. It seemed to work out pretty well.
Here's the finished crown cut.:
After cutting I needed to remove the sharp edges and slight burring left behind. I used a 45-degree brass lap (080624045) first, followed by the rounded one (080764410). I used both with some abrasive compound. I only used this by hand, though it says to chuck it up in a drill. No edges at the transit of the bore-to-crown caught on my pinky nail, so I think it'll be good to go.:
I've yet to put a decent radius or bevel on the outer edge of the barrel at the muzzle. Hmm.. I wonder if there is such a thing as a cupped file?
January 28, 2009, 05:03 PM
I have a new appreciation for the quality of the MIM alloy after cutting off the hammer spur. I started to try and use a hacksaw to start the cut, and I'm sure if I'd have been more patient I would have eventually obtained a good bite with the blade (same Lenox used to cut barrel), but I went with using a pneumatic cut-off tool to get an initial bite.
The surface hardness was impressive!
Back to the hacksaw for the rest of the cutting. I swear I could feel that the metal inside the hammer was utterly uniform and my blade tracked perfectly striking no voids or hardspots.
It hung on right to the bitter end with a paper thin section of metal that was still quite strong!:
About a 1/32" ridge was left at the bottom of the cut when I finally snapped the spur off. I filed on this ridge to get it flat/blended. I then blended the area near the top of the cut to the original radius. Next, I applied some Dykem Blue layout fluid to aid my eyes for final shaping/blending.:
Almost all of the shaping was done with a 6" #2 cut, swiss pattern file with safe edges, some 3M 150 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper cut into thin strips for shoeshine style sanding along with some Norton EZ-Flex 600 grit (657110600) for same. Final polishing with some Cratex medium abrasive 9/32" bullet points chucked up in the Dremel.:
January 28, 2009, 05:08 PM
Well, I had the muzzle radiused/dehorned pretty decent, but smudged up the crown with a cratex bit. It probably wouldn't affect accuracy one bit, but I couldn't deal with that blemish (of course :rolleyes:), so I cleaned it up using the facing cutter and crowning cutter with only a few light turns on each. Seems pretty fair now.
Did some test firing and the first 6 went off fine, but I had 3 light strikes during the next 6 rounds due to a strain screw I had shortened too much. It was running in conjunction with a Wolff lightweight mainspring and the bobbed hammer.
I swapped the light mainspring for the factory standard weight, but still had light primer strikes. Pulled the shortened strain screw and put the standard length in and went back to the lightened mainspring = all good.
Lesson learned: There is a very narrow window for strain screw modding.
The trigger actually feels smoother, though a little heavier when using the normal strain screw over the (overly) shortened one. Maybe a couple-few thousands taken off the strain screw would be ok, but thats probably it. (Especially if using a bobbed hammer).
January 28, 2009, 05:09 PM
After the test firing I used the rounded brass lap for a few turns to insure there were no burrs at the crown. Went loopy and blended the original yoke to the new frame, dehorned the sharp edge on the frame under the yoke and the back of the locking bolt/barrel lug. Also put a slight bevel on the back of the cylinder.
I guess its finally ready to go get blasted and blued.
Yoke alignment, endshake & timing checks.
Fitting new cylinder bolt & extractor rod.
Fitting new cylinder stop & hand.
February 5, 2009, 08:53 PM
It's back from S&W today and they did an excellent job on the refinish.:
Yoke alignment, endshake & timing re-checks.
Fitting new cylinder bolt & extractor rod.
Fitting new cylinder stop & hand.
Sights & duracoat application Part I.
February 10, 2009, 02:15 AM
Yoke alignment (see post #33 & #34 on page 2 for detailed descript). It's good. Also, the yoke barrel flange is snug against the frame and there is no yoke endshake.:
The pivot (yellow) doesn't quite come to flush with the recoil plate. This is serviceable (though not optimal) as the end of the cylinder's center pin is radiused, but I'm going to deal with this later when I replace the cylinder bolt.:
The locking bolt looks good.:
Which leads us to a quick and dirty alignment check, say for when looking over a revolver before purchasing. Basically cycle the action with the trigger and watch to see if the space between the yoke and frame (yellow) expands or contracts. You don't have to let the hammer fall if you'd rather not, but cycle the action as far as possible. (Note: You may be able to feel the yoke deflecting down to maybe 0.0005" to 0.001", which I gather is fine, but you probably wouldn't be able to see it).:
February 10, 2009, 02:21 AM
There's no detectable endshake (yellow) but it's probably still around 0.001". There is a little more rotational play (red) than before. This is something else I'll address later when fitting a new cylinder stop.:
In red you can see the hand moved up a bit in its travel since the action is partly cycled. In yellow, the top of the cylinder stop, and in green, the cylinder's stop notch. (Note: In order to cycle the action with the cylinder out, don't forget to pull back on the thumb-piece).:
The extractor/ratchet looks servicable, though there is some minor scrapes from when the charge holes were beveled.:
Checkout : Carry-up test
At rest, the cylinder stop is fully in the cylinder stop-notch.:
February 10, 2009, 02:24 AM
Trigger squeezed very slowly.
At ~1/6 trigger travel, the cylinder stop drops below flush in the frame. A hair past 1/6th, the hand interfaces a slot on the ratchet and begins to rotate the cylinder.:
A little before 3/6 or 1/2 trigger travel you will hear a click as the cylinder stop pops into contact with the smooth portion of the cylinder.:
At ~5/6 trigger travel you should hear the second click as the cylinder stop drops into the stop notch on the cylinder. The cylinder should now be presenting the next charge hole in perfect alignment with the barrel bore.:
At last, the hammer falls. If the cylinder stop drops into the stop notch just as the hammer falls, timing will need to be adjusted. Sooner if you shoot a good bit, maybe later if not so much. At the very least the cylinder stop must drop into the notch as the hammer falls. [Mine is right at the raggedy edge on 3 of the charge holes, so I'm hoping it will be rectified by fitting a new hand and cylinder stop + a little ratchet clean-up.] Also, note firing pin protrusion, it should span the gap by a hair over half way. Make sure the firing pin retracts fully when the trigger is released.
February 10, 2009, 02:26 AM
Checkout : Cylinder to bore alignment
A quick visual check can be made to detect any gross misalignment using a flashlight and an eyeball. Alternately, you can direct the light to shine in at the recoil plate as detailed in the revolver forum's checkout sticky. Check each charge hole with the trigger held back after the hammer falls. You could do this test in conjuction with the carry-up test.:
For a more accurate alignment check, I'm using a service range rod.:
Range rod head just barely visable in the b/c gap. All charge holes are in alignment with the bore.:
Another check made but not shown was for hammer push off.. that is, cocking the hammer back and then while it's cocked, pull back on the hammer like your trying to cock it again, then putting moderate fore and side-to-side pressure on the hammer to check that it won't slip from the sear.
February 10, 2009, 10:36 AM
Checkout : Headspace indication (not for recessed-head cylinders), No-Go.
Note, this is for getting a basic idea of a hazardous headspace condition or NO-GO only. To be precise, you need a real headspace gauge.
A 0.010" feeler gage must not fit betwen the firing pin bushing and an empty (and preferably deprimed) commercially available brass case.
Make sure the cylinder, extractor/ratchet, recoil plate and firing pin bushing are clean and free of any raised burrs.
Pull back evenly and firmly on the cylinder and see if you can get a 0.010" feeler gauge in from the side-plate side between the firing pin bushing and an empty brass casing. Make sure that if a casing has a fired primer in it that it is not sticking out beyond the case itself. A 0.010" should not be able to get in there. (According to JK, this is debated to 0.012").
In the pic, I can't get my 0.010" feeler straight in because it is too wide, so I had to go in at an angle in order to clear the extractor/ratchet and the top-strap. This only gives one corner of useable feeler gauge. It would go behind the case that's next in line to be fired, but not the case in front of the firing pin, so it's good.:
I tried the 0.012" and it wouldn't go behind any case on the sideplate side.:
Every charge hole position should be checked.
I used Starline cases with a rim thickness of 0.058"
0.058 + 0.010 = 0.068
Please see page 2 for gauging with Brownells 080-633-668 Cylinder Gauge.
And it was not mentioned, but the cylinder should also be pulled back evenly and firmly when using the Brownells tool, even though the instructions omit this.
February 20, 2009, 09:45 AM
Fantastic work, thanks for taking the time and doing it right. I know the effort required to do this. Hundreds will benefit from the "Visual Aids" you have provided. Best regards
February 20, 2009, 05:27 PM
tractorshaft, thank you for the kind words and you are most welcome.
March 8, 2009, 10:58 PM
Here's a picture showing 3 mainsprings (aka hammer springs). In the fore is the factory (OE) spring, note how flat it is. In the middle is the Wolff TYPE-1 Power Rib Mainspring showing a little more bend or arch (same pull weight as OE, though it does seem smoother), and in the back is the Wolff TYPE-2 Power Rib Mainspring with the most arch and the lightest pull weight.:
March 8, 2009, 11:00 PM
Here's the new bolt.:
New bolt on the left, old on the right. The new bolt's pivot only needs to be filed so that it's just a hair longer than the old one. This is the only "fitting" that needs to be done aside from checking it for straightness.:
Steel rule and aluminum block for a makeshift filing jig.:
March 9, 2009, 01:00 AM
Top-down view of the bolt set atop the ruler and clamped against the block. The bench-vise jaws are only bearing on the ruler and alum. block.:
Really just using this setup as a visual guide (file not touching the ruler) and to give my hands a break.:
Pivot above flush. Just a little more to go. Even with using my jig, it isn't perfectly squared to the recoil plate. I'll use a magic marker to indicate any high spots needing additional file-love.:
I didn't use the jig for the final filing and deburring. Polished smooth with a medium cratex in the dremel. The pivot is maybe 0.001" longer than the old one, and sets just below flush, but it does function better. I had tested it when it was perfectly flush and it seems that any slight lateral movement (say bumping the thumbpiece) of the bolt when closing the cylinder can cause the pivot to stick out just enough to catch/bind against the extractor.:
March 9, 2009, 01:01 AM
On newer revolvers that do not utilize pins to locate the extractor on the cylinder you must use properly sized [and empty ;)] cases in order to obtain a correct indication on the carry-up test posted.
April 2, 2009, 12:48 AM
WOW!!! Thank you!
April 12, 2009, 02:05 AM
Great heavens; what a marvelous piece. You've put in a terrific amount of meticulous effort, and you've succeeded in creating an outstanding reference work for us all to use. Thank you.
June 4, 2009, 04:49 PM
Thanks Sylvan-Forge. Couldn't ask for a more detailed presentation! Now if I can survive the key lock Smith's so hung up on, I'll be all set.
June 7, 2009, 03:34 PM
Really excellent Thread...
I don't know how I'd missed till now, but glad I found it.
As it happens, I am similarly preparing to modify in his case, an older Model 10-6, and your info is much appreciated.
Would you know if there are Barrel-end Cutters available for duplicating the normal original S & W 'roundness' of the Muzzle end, after one has shortened a Bull Barrel?
Or, does one have to make their own Piloted Cutter to do so? ( I expect one could re-profile any large enough conventional Machinist's Counter-Bore for doing it...)
June 19, 2009, 05:48 AM
or you could just get a ruger. much easier to disassemble:D
July 7, 2009, 01:05 PM
Sorry for the late replies, it's been a busy last few months. ..
shootr, thank ya and you're welcome!!
Mr. Dale, thank you much and you're welcome!
raveneap, I hear ya there and you're welcome.
Thanks, Oyeboten. I have'nt seen any cutters like that, .. though like you said, one could probably be made up. Good luck with your 10-6!
rhatimi, there is that :D
July 22, 2009, 11:42 PM
Just finished placing in S & W model 642 and 60, reduced power hammer springs 8# and trigger slide springs 13#. Was able to do it fairly easily with the aid of your pictures and discriptions. Used a small phillips screwdriver to ease the trigger slide spring out and back in. Lubed assembly and took them to the range. Ran 100 rounds of +p 38 specials through them. Rapid fire slow fire and not any misfires. What a difference it makes. Smooth and no stacking of pressure on trigger. Wolf springs. Would recommend it to others. Had a woman friend that could not pull the trigger on 642 and now can easily. Loves it.
September 9, 2009, 09:27 PM
For that slide/rebound spring, I just hold my thumb over the end of the spring/slide to keep it from flying out while I gently pry up underneath the slide with a small screwdriver.
To reassemble, I used a tire valve-stem removal tool and using that, the slide/spring practically falls into place by itself. Seriously.
September 9, 2009, 09:36 PM
September 13, 2009, 11:27 AM
Are you Kidding me!!! I thought revolvers were supposed to be simpler than autos?
I have a nickle Rossi model 68 in .38 Special. It's in great shape, shoots good but didn't cost me much so I got into it, disassembled the action and reassmbled it without a problem and without making any modifications. I don't remember all the parts I'm seeing in the Sylva-Forge S&W model 10, but then a Rossi is no Smith.
How similar is a S&W 686 to a model 10?
Many thanks to Sylva, great great post.
Thank You Sir.
September 13, 2009, 01:27 PM
charliemopic, the model that Sylva-Forge is showing is a modern gun with the internal "lawyer lock" parts. Minus that stuff, the older guns like the model 10 are pretty much the same. I've been inside my S&W model 10's and Rossi model 68's and there's not much difference in the parts layout, except for the coil mainspring in the Rossi versus flat mainspring in the S&W.
It's a common misconception that revolvers are simpler than autos. They are simpler to OPERATE than an auto, but the fitting and craftsmanship of internal parts is (just my opinion here) much more critical in a revolver.
September 20, 2009, 11:27 AM
Sylvan-Forge, Your thread is the best I've seen on the net. Thanks to you I tore down (disassembled) my 65 last night with NO problems. Now to change out some springs & clean up I'll put her back together. Absolutly fabulous thread. Many thanks
October 12, 2009, 05:43 AM
Hi Sylvan-Forge! Thank'you very much for your job, it's simply fantastic. I'm from Italy(excuse me for my english), i have a question for you: what's the use of the Hammer Block Safety? How i can verify if his assembly is correct? Because I tried to assembly my S&W mod.10 without "Hammer Block Safety" and however it seems working. thank'you in advance!
October 16, 2009, 04:31 PM
laker1, that's great to hear!
christina2009, you're very welcome!
swampboy, cool idea!
You're welcome sir and thank you.
As swampboy says, the 686 (L-Frame) is about the same, as are most Smith & Wesson revolvers. The main thing I'd stress is to verify headspace specifications when looking at different calibers and/or different frame sizes.
reload68, thank you for all the kind words. Glad to have been of some help!
enrico, you're welcome and thank you!
The hammer block safety is an extra safety that helps keep the revolver from firing due to a hard impact, say from a fall onto a hard surface.
The hammer/rebound seat is one safety guarding against such impact, but if the impact overcomes the hammer stud and breaks it, the hammer could possibly cam-over the seat and allow the hammer to fire a cartridge. The hammer block is designed to "block" or intercept the hammer before this can happen.
The revolver will function fine without a hammer block, but chances are greater it will fire if dropped on its hammer from even a low height.
If you wish to re-install your hammer block (I recommend it), please see page 1, post 1, 3rd picture -or- this link (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4969150&postcount=1), the hammer block is highlighted in red in the 3rd picture.
Reinstallation instructions can be found on page 3 post #62 and #63, or these links : Post 62 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5000202&postcount=62) and Post 63 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5000207&postcount=63).
February 16, 2010, 10:20 PM
This post gave me confidence in putting a wide target hammer in my L-framed 686-3 myself.
I had to do a little sanding and fitting but everything turned out great and it works like a charm.:)
April 25, 2010, 09:03 PM
I just finished reading/viewing this thread with pleasure and amazement. As a former master gunner from the Army, and retired senior field engineer with a defense firm, I was quite humbled. Here I thought I actually knew a thing or two. I now realize just how much time and skill goes into such work.
August 7, 2010, 10:17 AM
excellent! while you are obviously well qualified, 99.237% of the time, the, picking up the dremel part is about the end of the gun. the, felt wheel part cant be stated strongly enough, all to often, if a felt wheel on low speed will take off a little metal slowly, a coarse grinding wheel on full speed will take off a whole lot more metal alot faster. you did a great job, heck i got a few revolvers you could tune. well done.
November 20, 2010, 08:02 PM
In regards to using the Wolff Power Rib springs in your revolver. I have found that many time even when using the standard power Wolff spring, I will sometimes get light strikes. It is because of the "rib" of the spring causes the strain screw to not put as much tension on the spring as the standard S&W spring. It would be similar to using a shorter strain screw.
An easy fix that I have found is to use the primer from a fired cartridge (removing the small piece of metal from inside the primer of course) in between the screw and the spring. It effectively lengthens the strain screw and you can then apply the correct pressure to prevent light strikes.
February 23, 2012, 02:00 PM
parisite, SaberOne, gun guy, and SWAddict, though I responded in private message some time ago, I just want to say I'm glad to have been of any help and thank you for the kind words. That's a cool fix-it tip, SWAddict, thanks for sharing that.
February 23, 2012, 02:21 PM
Here's some stuff that I thought I'd put in this thread a long time ago ...
..meh, getting old ain't what it used to be :p
Everything is pretty much the same with the small J-frame revolvers with the exception of mainspring being a coil-spring instead of a flat-spring.:
To remove the mainspring as an assembly with the hammer-strut, just cock the hammer, insert a paperclip throught the strut, and remove assembly.:
Minus the hammer-block safety, mainspring assembly, and hammer assembly.:
That's all I've got for the J-frames at this time.
February 23, 2012, 02:37 PM
Back to the model 10..
1/16" brass punch to get the pin started.:
1/16" punch gets squeezed a bit.:
1/16" punch moved the pin about as much.:
Time for the .040 short cup tip punch #4.:
February 23, 2012, 02:55 PM
With the cylinder securely closed, use the cup tip punch to drive out the pin the rest of the way.:
The extractor rod keeps the locking bolt assembly from flying out.:
Re-insert the cup tip punch or something suitable to keep the locking bolt and swing open the cylinder.:
Unrestrain thine locking bolt with care.:
February 23, 2012, 03:01 PM
Locking bolt spring, locking bolt, and locking bolt pin.:
Make sure to orientate the locking bolt pin-recess toward the top (don't forget the spring) and push the locking bolt in a bit (check in the hole to see how much you need), then with your third hand, tap in the pin with a brass hammer.:
Use a brass punch sized larger than the pin to drive it the rest of the way.:
Brass marks should come off of bluing, parkerizing, nickel, and chrome, but may scuff some coatings, so you may want to be a little more careful than I've been.:
February 23, 2012, 03:35 PM
The brass marks came off with some cleaning.:
February 23, 2012, 03:38 PM
Back in post #49 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4999297&postcount=49) I made things a bit more uniform but I went too far in beveling as illustrated in "Example 2" which in effect has more resistance when closing the cylinder than if I had just slightly radiused the end of the rod.
A much more appropriate ejector rod end is shown in Example 1. As you can see it has a lot less contact surface which lets the cylinder close easier.:
February 25, 2012, 10:38 PM
But saw you are still posting here.
You give me confidence in tearing apart an old model 10 (C4XXX).
Just have to figure out that extra screw in front of the trigger :)
Also, is there a thread that tells how to polish up the internals? This pistol looks to have never been cleaned.
February 25, 2012, 10:51 PM
Just have to figure out that extra screw in front of the triggerThat screw holds the true essence of those old S&W's in.
Kind of like the little "chewing gum" things and colored wires on circuit boards holds the smoke in.
If you take it out, the old S&W essence may escape, just like the smoke in a circuit board! :D
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