[Joe Demko]

The Winter Soldier Investigation (http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_entry.html) was the subject of a seldom screened 1972 documentary. Don't have a link to any kind of video, but here is a transcript of testimony from American servicemen. The brutality of the things these boys confess to boggles the mind.

The rest of the site will horrify some of you for a different reason, as it is dedicated to the '60s.

[Keith]

I looked at that, and noted that a lot of this testimony starts out like this one:

Also in Quang Tri City I had a friend who was working with USAID and he was also with CIA. We used to get drunk together and he used to tell me about his different trips into Laos on Air America Airlines and things. One time he asked me would I like to accompany him to watch...

Or this one:

I had some spare time this particular day so I left the compound and went to a bridge where people usually go and swim and they had a detachment on this bridge, in total about two platoons of people...

Or this one:

I was up in Quang Tri visiting a friend of mine who was on security, which is like a rat patrol. They go out in the little jeeps and patrol the perimeter. We were out about five o'clock in the morning, just about coming in, when they spotted this old woman about...

And it's all BS! These guys are describing wandering around like tourists in a war zone, or going on missions with other units and witnessing these things. That doesn't happen, ever, in a war zone. It doesn't even happen stateside - you can't just take off without a set of orders and ride along with other units, or go off swimming at the bridge in the middle of an operation... These guys are telling "legends" that they "heard about" and shoehorning themselves into the action as witnesses.

These are radical leftists with an agenda, making up atrocities to horrify the public. Nothing more.

Keith

[JBP]

__________________________________________________________These guys are describing wandering around like tourists in a war zone, or going on missions with other units and witnessing these things. That doesn't happen, ever, in a war zone.
__________________________________________________________
Can't comment one way or another as to the things that were purported to happen in Nam but since my outfit (TMA-MACV) was responsible for all non-tactical incountry transportation (both personnel & cargo) we could move around without any orders as long as you were off duty and your superiors knew where you were going. One of my unofficial duites as tne NCOIC of my operation up in Hue was to act as a tourist guide for new officers that came into I Corps. Since this was pre-Tet I'd take them around the old Imperial City and make arrangements with the Navy to take them on boat trips down the Perfume River. My first CO was a Marine Lt. Col. that hated being chained to a desk and enjoyed nothing more than hopping a USMC chopper in Danang to see the action that was going on around I Corps.

[Dave T]

Before you buy this crap, read Stolen Valor by B.G. Burkett and Blenna Whitley. It is subtitled "How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History".

Unlike this "documentary" their facts are actually "documented"!

[DorGunR]

Dave T posted:
Before you buy this crap, read Stolen Valor by B.G. Burkett and Blenna Whitley. It is subtitled "How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History".

Unlike this "documentary" their facts are actually "documented"!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree 100% with what Dave T said. I spent 3 years in-country and I was all over the place because I was on Flight Status and a helicopter crewmember..........but when we landed we didn't go wandering around the countryside........cause outside of the airfield was OFF LIMITS.
Dates in-country....
1966-1967 (18 months)
1969-1970 (18 months)

[jerryd]

Used to like to go to dodge city in Ankhe, Uniform was flack jacket weopon helmet and web gear, all this for a few beers! Funny how good the cherry girls looked after a few beers.

[Mark Tyson]

While we're on the subject, what resources are out there to verify the credentials of veterans and seperate them from the "wannabes"?

[Sean Smith]

Quotes look bogus to me. About as authentic as Chinese pizza.

You can always challenge an individual to produce their DD214. A real one looks something like this:

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/igc_76543/dd214.jpg

As for checking a bunch of people online, I dunno. There are websites that have info on fake SEALs and such specialized types.

[TexasVet]

This stuff sounds exactly like the "confession" of that Korean War soldier who told about the "massacre" a couple of years ago. Sounded really horrible until we found out that he was a cook about 200 miles away at the time he testified he was at the shooting site.:fire:

[Ala Dan]

I agree with my friends Dave T and DorGunR; before
you "buy the farm", read Stolen Valor. It is a "must
read" for separating a lot of truth from fiction; pertaining
to the Viet-Nam war.

There is even a section in the book that describes how
Presidential candidate, Sen. John Kerry D-Mass. joined
the war protestors after his tour of duty; and openly
denounced American involvement. He was even seen
throwing military medals (not his, of course!) at the
White House. Why, this idiot would probably select
"Hanoi Jane" *as his choice for a vice presidential
candidate.:uhoh:

Sorry for the rant, but it just turns my stomach to
think of the nearly 58,000 names on "The Wall";
and these three "undesirables" walking, talking,
and breathing the fresh air that these men and
women died for.

*FootNote- For those that might not know, "Hanoi
Jane" is Jane Fonda; ex-old lady of Ted Turner. In
all likelihood, being a celebrity kept her from being
tried for TREASON!

POW's - MIA's I Will NEVER Forget!

[Hkmp5sd]

As for Kerry, how does a person that doesn't really want to be in the Navy, doesn't really want to be a SEAL and even before he volunteers for Vietnam, knows the war is "wrong", manage to volunteer and end up in battle?

It is no wonder he has no concept of the war on terror. He doesn't even have a clue as to how he ended up in Vietnam.

But like any true liberal, he does know who to blame. Guess what, it ain't himself. In his apoligist publication written to correct the minor little flaw in his history that might render him unqualified to be a leftist democrat (ie military service) called When I was a Young Man, he made some very interesting statements.

One was, while on the way to the White House to receive the MOH, "On the way, my father and I talked briefly. He knew my dislike of medals and my distaste for President Nixon. The two might become an explosive mixture."

Nice way to inform everyone of his medals, yet include a disclaimer for those that might be offended by a warmonger.

And as Nixon was presenting the medal, Kerry states, "I let the president give me the medal. In truth I was badly confused. The war seemed like such a terrible mistake: politically, morally and militarily. The suffering that was being inflicted on the people of Indochina did not seem worth the potential gain."

Since when is taking war to the enemy and concern over their pain more important than the security of the United States? Although the politicians screwed it up as best as they could, the Vietnam war did slow down the expansion of communism until we could get a president that knew how to destroy them.

[Mark Tyson]

Hkmp5sd, you are talking about a different Kerry than the one Ala Dan is talking about. The SEAL was the one from Nebraska. The one who became a war protester is the one from Mass. curently running for president.

[Hkmp5sd]

The one I'm talking about is Senator Bob Kerry, the one accused of "war crimes" for killing 21 VC in Thanh Phong on 2/25/1969. Not Senator John Kerry, the dude about to lose the presidential nomination. Although John has managed to overcome his military record and Silver Star by saying the war was wrong also.

[Zip06]

I went to that war. Like our Civil War that war will never be over.

[fallingblock]

"I went to that war. Like our Civil War that war will never be over."
************************************************************

For those of us who were 'in' at the time.....there is agonizingly more perspective available than for those who wish to divine hindsight for answers:( .

[Gray Peterson]

This stuff sounds exactly like the "confession" of that Korean War soldier who told about the "massacre" a couple of years ago. Sounded really horrible until we found out that he was a cook about 200 miles away at the time he testified he was at the shooting site.

When did this happen?

[wingman]

I was there, met some of the finest people I ever knew many draftees.
I have never seen a movie or read a true version , but the
young men who died deserve much respect.!!

Vietnam Statistics:

*

VIETNAM VETS: 9.7% OF THEIR GENERATION
*

9,087,000 MILITARY PERSONNEL SERVED ON ACTIVE DUTY DURING THE VIETNAM ERA. AUG.5, 1964 - MAY 7, 1975.
*

8,744,000 GIs WERE ON ACTIVE DUTY DURING THE WAR. AUG.5, 1964 - MARCH 28, 1973
*

3,403,100 (INCLUDING 514,300 OFFSHORE) PERSONNEL SERVED IN THE SOUTHEAST ASIA THEATER (VIETNAM, LAOS, CAMBODIA, FLIGHT CREWS BASED IN THAILAND, AND SAILORS IN ADJACENT SOUTH CHINA SEA WATERS.)
*

2,594,000 PERSONNEL SERVED WITHIN THE BORDERS OF SOUTH VIETNAM (JAN.1 1965 - MARCH 28, 1973).

*

ANOTHER 50,000 MEN SERVED IN VIETNAM BETWEEN 1960 AND 1964.
*

OF THE 2.6 MILLION, BETWEEN 1 - 1.6 MILLION (40 - 60%) EITHER FOUGHT IN COMBAT, PROVIDED CLOSE SUPPORT OR WERE AT LEAST FAIRLY REGULARLY EXPOSED TO ENEMY ATTACK
*

7,484 WOMEN (6,250 OR 83.5% WERE NURSES) SERVED IN VIETNAM......
*

PEAK TROOP STRENGTH IN VIETNAM: 543,482 (APRIL 30, 1969).
*

HOSTILE DEATHS: 47,378

*

NON-HOSTILE DEATHS: 10,800
*

TOTAL: 58,202 (INCLUDES MEN FORMERLY CLASSIFIED AS MIA AND MAYAGUEZ CASUALTIES). MEN WHO HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY DIED OF WOUNDS ACCOUNT FOR THE CHANGING TOTAL
*

8 NURSES DIED - 1 WAS KIA
*

MARRIED MEN KILLED: 17,539
*

61% OF THE MEN KILLED WERE 21 OR YOUNGER.
*

HIGHEST STATE DEATH RATE: WEST VIRGINIA - 84.1 (NATIONAL AVERAGE 58.9 FOR EVERY 100,000 MALES IN 1970).

*

WOUNDED: 303,704 --- 153,329 HOSPITALIZED + 150,375 INJURED REQUIRING NO HOSPITAL CARE.
*

SEVERELY DISABLED: 75,000-----23,214 100% DISABLED; 5,283 LOST LIMB; 1,081 SUSTAINED MULTIPLE AMPUTATIONS.
*

AMPUTATION OR CRIPPLING WOUNDS TO THE LOWER EXTREMITIES WERE 300% HIGHER THAN IN WWII AND 70% HIGHER THAN KOREA. MULTIPLE AMPUTATIONS OCCURRED AT THE RATE OF 18.4% COMPARED TO 5.7% IN WWII.

*

MISSING IN ACTION: 2,338.
*

POWs: 766 (114 DIED IN CAPTIVITY).
*

25% (648,500) OF TOTAL FORCES IN COUNTRY WERE DRAFTEES.

*

DRAFTEES ACCOUNTED FOR 30.4% (17,725) OF COMBAT DEATHS IN VIETNAM.
*

RESERVIST KILLED: 5,977
*

NATIONAL GUARD: 6,140 SERVED; 101 DIED.
*

TOTAL DRAFTEES (1965-73): 1,728,344.

*

ACTUALLY SERVED IN VIETNAM: 38%.
*

MARINE CORPS DRAFT: 42,633
*

LAST MAN DRAFTED: JUNE 30, 1973.
*

76% OF THE MEN SENT TO VIETNAM WERE FROM LOWER MIDDLE/WORKING CLASS BACKGROUNDS.

* THREE FOURTHS HAD FAMILY INCOMES ABOVE THE POVERTY LEVEL; 50% WERE FROM MIDDLE INCOME BACKGROUNDS.
*

SOME 23% OF VIETNAM VETS HAD FATHERS WITH PROFESSIONAL, MANAGERIAL, OR TECHNICAL OCCUPATIONS.
*

79% OF THE MEN WHO SERVED IN VIETNAM HAD A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION OR BETTER WHEN THEY ENTERED THE MILITARY SERVICE. (63% OF KOREAN WAR VETS AND ONLY 45% OF WWII VETS HAD COMPLETED HIGH SCHOOL UPON SEPARATION).
*

DEATHS BY REGION PER 100,000 OF POPULATION: SOUTH-31; WEST-29.9; MIDWEST-28.4; NORTHEAST-23.5.
*

88.4% OF THE MEN WHO ACTUALLY SERVED IN VIETNAM WERE CAUCASIAN; 10.6% (275,000) WERE BLACK; 1% BELONGED TO OTHER RACES.

*

86.3% OF THE MEN WHO DIED IN VIETNAM WERE CAUCASIAN (INCLUDES HISPANICS); 12.5% (7,241) WERE BLACK; 1.2% BELONGED TO OTHER RACES.
*

170,000 HISPANICS SERVED IN VIETNAM; 3,070 (5.2% OF TOTAL) DIED THERE.
*

70% OF ENLISTED MEN KILLED WERE OF NORTHWEST EUROPEAN DESCENT.
*

86.8% OF THE MEN WHO WERE KILLED AS A RESULT OF HOSTILE ACTION WERE CAUCASIAN; 12.1% (5,711) WERE BLACK; 1.1% BELONGED TO OTHER RACES.

*

14.6% (1,530) OF NON-COMBAT DEATHS WERE AMONG BLACKS.
*

34% OF BLACKS WHO ENLISTED VOLUNTEERED FOR THE COMBAT ARMS.
*

OVERALL, BLACKS SUFFERED 12.5% OF THE DEATHS IN VIETNAM AT A TIME WHEN THE % OF BLACKS OF MILITARY AGE WAS 13.5% OF THE TOTAL POPULATION.
*

RELIGION OF DEAD; PROTESTANT---64.4%; CATHOLIC---28.9%; OTHER/NONE 6.7%
*

82% OF VETERANS WHO SAW HEAVY COMBAT STRONGLY BELIEVE THE WAR WAS LOST BECAUSE OF LACK OF POLITICAL WILL.

*

NEARLY 75% OF THE PUBLIC AGREES IT WAS A FAILURE OF POLITICAL WILL NOT OF ARMS.
*

97% OF VIETNAM ERA VETERANS WERE HONORABLY DISCHARGED.
*

91% OF ACTUAL VIETNAM WAR VETERANS AND 90% OF THOSE WHO SAW HEAVY COMBAT ARE PROUD TO HAVE SERVED THEIR COUNTRY.
*

66% OF VIETNAM VETS SAY THEY WOULD SERVE AGAIN IF CALLED UPON.
*

87% OF THE PUBLIC NOW HOLDS VIETNAM VETERANS IN HIGH ESTEEM.



* A Special THANKS To 1st Sgt. @ The Veterans Hour - By The 1ST For The Information Provided

[RWK]

Sorry to respond to this thread late – and with such vitriol. I agree with my friends Ala Dan, Dave T and DorGunR, and, for that matter, with all of my fellow veterans who served with honor – and frequently with distinction – under truly adverse circumstances.

Let’s assume for a moment many of these “myths” are true (they are not, they are pure BS, but let presume they are valid). So what? Would that mean that the vast majority, thousands of kids – and we were all kids back then – who did their duties well and who were (and are) true patriots are less deserving of respect or credit? It, obviously, does not.

Further, who among us is so foolish and lacking in mature judgment that we will criticize another individual’s actions without both knowing the full situation – in context – and also have real experience in similar circumstances? It’s easy to sit in a peaceful room – relaxed, safe, content, under no pressures of time, of fear, and of desperately trying to protect yourself and your brother-in-arms – and to pontificate. It’s not so easy to serve.

I’ve been there. I will never criticize those who served and fought. And I despise all the “armchair commentators” who offer analyses and observations based on their elitist backgrounds, but who never were willing to serve or to make REAL sacrifices.

I know this post rambles and is not well organized. However, this thread really enrages me. I want to close with the following thought: William Calley and My Lai are the “poster children” for US Vietnam atrocities. Without doubt, the rules of land warfare were violated there. However, I do not criticize Calley – or his Twenty-Third ID brothers – because UNDER THE PRECISE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES many of us might have done just what his platoon did. As for those who sternly state they never would do so, I only ask if they have ever been in close combat. If they have not, then their commentary wholly lacks credibility.

With warmest regards to those who serve today and also to those who served in the past – Roy

:fire:

[King]

My hero's....Vietnam Combat Veterans. I great debt to those who servered that can never be fully repaid. There won't be any forgetting......

[Hkmp5sd]

There won't be any forgetting......

I agree. That's why I've worn a red MIA bracelet, bearing the name of a person I've never heard of otherwise, eveyday since the 70s.

SMS Paul L. Foster
USAF
12-29-67
LAOS
TN

[Doctor Wu]

Thanks to all the vets, especially those who served in Nam and Korea, they have never been given the credit they deserve.