Need Advice on a "Safe": Amsec v. Sturdy v. Other?

[justindo]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and looking for an RSC or "safe." I've read many of the posts on the subject here and while I'm tempted to purchase a large Graffunder B, C, or E series safe, I'm planning on moving from my current residence within a few years and I really don't want to go through the expense and inconvenience of moving a very heavy safe. Also, there's a strong possibility that my future residence will be a 100ish year old old house with no basement, so weight will be a factor.

I think I've done my homework and while a lot of the gun "safes" look nice, I'm more concerned with security and, to a degree, fire protection. Right now I don't imagine myself needing a huge safe until many years from now as I can't see myself owning more than a half dozen long guns and a half dozen handguns, along with storage space for some watches, jewelry, and papers. Based on my research, I've narrowed my options down to an Amsec BF6032 and a Sturdy 2419, although I'm open to other suggestions.

Both Amsec and Sturdy seem to be good values, offer fair fire protection (I'm in and will be in an urban area, so the fire department is never very far away), and good "common criminal" protection. There are things I like and dislike about both "safes." The pluses with Amsec are that it's a large company, I can get in-home installation, the model I'm looking at is a bit deeper and wider than the Sturdy model, the door plate is thicker, and the interior is nicer. The pluses with the Sturdy are that its body steel is thicker (7 ga. v. 10 ga. for the Amsec), the dial is better and I can reset the combination myself, and I like their no-frills, no-nonsense, no-advertising sensibility. Both safes are within $500 of each other delivered (the Sturdy is cheaper), although I'd probably have to move the Sturdy inside my house with an appliance dolly or a pallet jack, so that might make the prices close to equal.

So which "safe" do the experts and the enthusiasts recommend, or is there another company I should consider, and why? Thanks in advance.

[a1abdj]

The AMSEC is almost impossible to beat in its price range.

The body steel is thinner than the Sturdy, but the Sturdy is a single layer of steel with gypsum board up against it. The AMSEC has a double steel wall in which the void is pumped with composite "concrete". This not only provides a better fire barrier, but also make a thick monolithic wall which will hold up better against a brute force attack.

The combination locks will be similar, and both can be changed. Unless you are very familiar with changing combinations you shouldn't do it. It is very easy to mess up, and can result in your locking yourself out of your safe. Combination changes performed by non locksmiths also void the lock warranties.

[jaytex1969]

"Also, there's a strong possibility that my future residence will be a 100ish year old old house with no basement, so weight will be a factor."

Count on the 100 year old house supporting the weight as well or better than any of the crap houses they are putting up today.

[Pure Kustom]

Amsec. I have one. There are one of the best!!

P.S. Only the BF SERIES!!!!! There cheap series is made in China.

[Guns R Tools]

a1abdj
...Sturdy is a single layer of steel with gypsum board up against it...

I thought the Sturdy used fiberglass on their product with fire protection, they use gypsum board?

http://www.sturdysafe.com/fireliner.htm

[justindo]

jaytex1969: What I mean about the 100ish year old house is that it won't be on a slab so, at the very least, I'd have to reinforce the floor, which, I think, would be both difficult and expensive.

Guns R Tools: You're correct that Sturdy uses the supposedly better fiberglass, not gypsum board.

a1abdj: Thanks for you quick response. From what I've seen and read, the Amsec BF safes seem to be the best of the major brands in their price range due to the fact that Amsec makes "real safes" as opposed to "gun safes," so they have vast experience and are more about quality than marketing. I understand that, like Graffunder, Amsec uses a type of injected "concrete" for fire protection, which is a lot better than the gypsum board in "gun safes." That said, what concerns me about the Amsec safes is their relatively thin outer metal body walls compared to the Sturdy Safe outer walls (7 ga. v. 10 ga.), especially considering that, based on what I've read, 90-95% of safes are breached through the body, not the door. (Although I've not heard much good about Liberty safes, at least their top of the line models use 7 ga. outer walls.) Based on what I've heard and read, the pictures I've seen on the Sturdy website, and in talking with owner/maker of Sturdy, one can get through 10ga. with an ax pretty fast compared with 7 ga. (Of course I realize that the Sturdy Safe owner/maker is trying to push his product over others, but his point it does make sense, especially when one considers that true safes use thick 1/4" plate at minimum.) Once through the outer metal of the Amsec BF, I would think it would then be relatively easy to get through the injected "concrete" and that the internal layer of metal is really more for the containment of the "concrete" and acts as a liner rather than an actual serious barrier to burglary. It this assumption correct or not? (Sturdy uses a 16 ga. liner and they say it's more for the containment of their fire liner than for actual burglary security. Like Fort Knox, Sturdy offers a 10 ga. interior liner, but the owner/maker doesn't recommend it, as he says that 10 ga. is easy to get through with an ax.) Regarding burglary, would you personally feel safer having a 7 ga. outer body with fiberglass liner and a 16 ga. interior liner or Amsec's 10 ga. outer body with injected "concrete" liner and their ?? ga. interior liner? How about regarding fire?

Also, what is your opinion of the Amsec HS series RF6528 compared to the BF series? I realize there is a large price difference, a large fire rating difference, and, most importantly for me, a huge weight difference, but is the HS Series RF6528 a significantly better safe in terms of burglary? What is the thickness of the metal plate of the body and the door, as Amsec doesn't mention it? How does the HS Series RF6528 compare to a Graffunder Bishop which seems to be in the same ballpark in terms of price? Once again, my main concern with the Amsec HS Series RF6528 is the thickness of the outer body metal. While it is a TL-30 rated safe, it's not a TL-30X6 rated safe and the latter rating would give me much better piece of mind.

Once again, thanks for all your help in answering my questions.

[a1abdj]

I thought the Sturdy used fiberglass on their product with fire protection, they use gypsum board?


You are correct. I get in a bad habit of not using the term "fire barrier" when I should and often replace it with "gypsum board" since that's what most gun safes use.

The insulation on their safes is in fact not gypsum board. My point was that the insulation does not add to the burglary resistance of the unit.

That said, what concerns me about the Amsec safes is their relatively thin outer metal body walls compared to the Sturdy Safe outer walls (7 ga. v. 10 ga.), especially considering that, based on what I've read, 90-95% of safes are breached through the body, not the door.

The easiest way to explain the difference is a simple piece of paper. If you hold up a piece of paper, you can stick your finger through it easily.

Now, take that same paper, fold it and glue it, and make some corrugated cardboard. You won't stick your finger through it.

The AMSEC works on the same principle. When using brute force on a safe, the flexibility of the steel is the biggest weakness. When you use a single layer of thin steel with nothing rigid behind it (gypsum board isn't rigid enough) the steel will bend, flex, and tear as you beat on it. This is not as big of a problem with AMSEC because the concrete fill between two layers of steel makes the walls very rigid.

Lay a piece of aluminum foil on your driveway, and hit it with a hammer. See how many times you have to hit it before it tears.

To the gun safe manufacturers who claim that AMSECs composite method is not as effective I ask this:

Why is it that most modern day Jewelers's safes and bank vault doors are concrete panels wrapped in thin steel?

[HIcarry]

I compared the two (Sturdy and Amsec) and went for the AMSEC. Because I wanted the best fire protection, I was a little leary about the "independent" company that provided the fire rating to Sturdy. In researching that aspect I found there are no real controls or standardization for how those "independent" companies do their testing. At least with UL you know what you're getting.

As for the lighter gauge of steel on the AMSEC, I can verify that the concrete creates a very sturdy, and what I think, IMHO, would be a tremendous deterent to a smash and grab scenario.

I am very happy with my purchase (BF6030) and would recommend the line to anyone.

[heeler]

Justindo,I commend you for doing so much research on your future purchase and I have been down this same road.
I researched practically every gun safe maker out there and have stacks of catalogs on my end table to bare that out.
I too worried more about burglary protection first and fire protection second.
I understand both a very important but where i live i think one will hear about far more home breakins than you ever will hear about someones house burning to the ground.
That being said my research tells me that the Amsec BF gun safe gives you much better fire protection than it's sheet rock filled competitors.
And i have no doubts at all that the person or two that breaks into your home will generally be equipped with some sort of pry bar that gains entry into your home and he/they will wear themselves completely out trying to pry or beat their way into your Amsec BF.
In fact i think they would have their work cut out for them even if the safe you owned was a 12 gauge bodied safe with at least a 3/16th plate door as long as the safe was bolted down.
As a matter of fact i got to do a little experiment two weeks ago.
I live here in Houston and we are cleaning up after Ike.
A large oak tree fell on and ruined a business's trash dumpster.
I looked on the web to check out the specs of that particular brand of trash dumpster (Roll Off made in Mead Ok.)and found out the body is made from 12 gauge steel.
I used my three foot axe on that thing and it took some work just to finally make a thru cut on the thing and that was after eight swings.
And even then it was not much of a gash.
So think about some dopey Opie trying to beat his way through that Amsec or for that matter some other brand using a more premium 3/16th steel body.:neener:
It will be a long day without the use of power tools my friends.:)

I still like the concept of a double wall safe.
And by the way the inner liner of the Amsec BF is 16 gauge steel which is the same thickness on most construction job boxes.
I priced a Ft.Knox Defender 60x41 recently with the fire rated door and the addtional 10 gauge inner liner and it was around 2800.00
The new Amsec 66x36 is a bit less in price.
So for me it will almmost surely be one of these two.
Good luck and let us know what you finally decided to buy.

[loose cannon]

i know not what course others may take but for me its going to be a zanotti which can be taken down into 6 peices and moved easily.

in my divorce i lost a good safe due to its portability issues.it was 1400lbs and 6 feet tall 4 feet wide and 3feet deep.

never again

[Nate C.]

Fort Knox. End of discussion.

[TEDDY]

Zanotti:I helped a friend with one it is awsum.and you can move it if you move.also you can lag it to floor or wall.
dont worry about old house.they were made strong.Probably2 x 8 joists.even then you can reenforce the spot with 4x4s upright.:uhoh::rolleyes::D
added.a cold chisel will cut thru sheetmetal.or drill and then saw.
there was not the portabl power tools there are now.but it takes time which is what crooks dont have.

[a1abdj]

Fort Knox. End of discussion.

Some of the Fort Knox line is certainly worth considering, but the ones that are cost much more than the AMSEC will. I sell Fort Knox also, but am not a stocking dealer. Most of our business with Fort Knox is vault doors or higher end custom ordered safes.

Fort Knox's top of the line safe retails in the $11,000+ range. I could sell you a real burglary rated safe with a much better fire rating, and a 3,400 pound weight tag for about half of that.

[jasper275]

I'm currently shopping for a safe too and have decided on either of 2 options: sturdy safe 2723 or amsec 6032 or 6030. Hard to argue with the ruggedness of 3/16" steel and the simpler side-mounted active bolt linkage of the sturdy safe. My concern is the 7 gauge steel versus the 10 gauge w/concrete barrier. I'd think breaching the 10 gauge is relatively easy. Then, a few bangs with a sledge shatters the concrete. Finally, an ax zips through the 16 gauge. Also, the Amsec is heavier, and, even with the door removed, is gonna be much more of a bear to move than the sturdy safe (810pounds for 6032; 885 for 6030; 740 for Sturdy 2723). My info says the sturdy has a 14 gauge fire liner as standard, which would provide some burglary protection possibly on par with the amsec's 10 gauge-concrete-16 gauge arrangement. Both are solid choices, but the thicker steel and lighter weight are possibly the clincher for me...but I'm still undecided.

[Pure Kustom]

If you are looking for a safe you should see this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

For the record. Amsec has a 1/2 plate door. A real 1/2 plate. Look at most safe with 3/8 or 1/2 door. If you look closely. You will see that it is 2 plates seemed togeather. I have seen a bunch that were splitting.:eek:

[MAKster]

While it's possible to break through the side of most gun safes with an ax, the hole would be too small to pull much out. If someone reached in through that jagged mess they couldn't pull out a long gun. All of the models being discussed are more than enough protection for the likely burglary. Don't go overboard to protect against a one in a million scenario.

[heeler]

I agree Makster.
Having had my home burglarized three times in 27 years most of the time they used some sort of prying tool to jimmy the front or rear door open and just ransacked all the closets and drawers.
Of course they always took the stereo,T.V.,etc.
And of course my guns.
The home has not been burglarized since i bought my gun safe five years ago.
It has a 10 gauge body and a 1/4 inch plate door.
So unless they had a massive set of pry bars or sawzall i trust it would hold the line being that they probably would be in the house less than ten minutes.
Even that low end safe,which is too small now for my needs it would more than likely survive the attack by hammer or small pry bar....I hope.

[Pure Kustom]

While it's possible to break through the side of most gun safes with an ax, the hole would be too small to pull much out. If someone reached in through that jagged mess they couldn't pull out a long gun. All of the models being discussed are more than enough protection for the likely burglary. Don't go overboard to protect against a one in a million scenario.

Axe, Not really sure on that one. Little grinder and a few minutes. They can open the safe like a sardine can. It is called skinning and it works very well. Especially if your safe only has one wall and drywall in it. opps excuse me. I meant fire board. :D

[a1abdj]

While it's possible to break through the side of most gun safes with an ax, the hole would be too small to pull much out

This safe was emptied out as a result of the hole in the side.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/libertyburglary1.jpg


If someone reached in through that jagged mess they couldn't pull out a long gun.

The problem isn't loosing your long guns. Many manufacturers have tricked the consumer into believing that these gun safes are in home replacements for your safe deposit box at the bank.

Cash, jewelry, coin collections, silverware, and other valuable items are easily removable through that hole.

Don't go overboard to protect against a one in a million scenario.

Although this is good advice, you have to know what's overboard and what's not. What's overboard for $1,000 worth of guns is certainly not overboard for $25,000 worth of guns.

[Pure Kustom]

Thanks a1abdj , That picture makes me appreciate my Amsec even more!!!

[jasper275]

Thanks for the photo!

I'm assuming it was a 12 gauge body and a Chinese-made safe, right? Isn't Chinese steel softer than American steel? At least I've heard this, and it makes intuitive sense, since the Chinese are expert at producing sub-quality products since they don't answer as directly to the market place as an American-based business.

[a1abdj]

I'm assuming it was a 12 gauge body and a Chinese-made safe, right?

That is a 12 gauge Liberty, which according to them, is US made.

Isn't Chinese steel softer than American steel?

Sometimes, but not always.

the Chinese are expert at producing sub-quality products since they don't answer as directly to the market place as an American-based business.

You would be surprised. The Chinese finally figured out that they couldn't keep selling junk to the US. They have reverse engineered many US designs, and are producing them for import.

We sell a line of Chinese safes which is built better than a lot of the US made safes they compete with.

[Joe Cool]

It seems to me that it would not be that hard to buy an RSC and then weld up a 5-sided box of sheet steel at 3/16" thick around it. On second thought that seems too easy.
So guys tell me what's wrong with that idea? Like I said it seems too easy...

[a1abdj]

So guys tell me what's wrong with that idea? Like I said it seems too easy...


You could just buy a safe with 3/16", 1/2", or 1" steel plate walls.

[springmom]

When we bought our first gun safe it was an Amsec. When we bought the one we have now (quite a lot larger, imagine that.... :neener:) I looked around a lot. a1abdj posted some good data about the Amsec's, and although I found cheaper safes in the Houston area, we didn't find one better for the price range. We're real happy with ours, and I'd highly recommend them. And if (when) we get another one, it'll be the same brand. If it ain't broke...

Amsec is a real good choice.

Springmom

[TehK1w1]

I have a friend in Houston who owns a locksmithing company. I've seen several safes at his warehouse that were "skinned" as Pure Kustom described. A 3-sided cut into the steel plate on one side, then the flap peeled back and the concrete pounded away. Another cut through the inner wall and they were through (These were business safes, from department stores and such) It's a crude method, but it works. One of the safes had over $15000 of cash, jewelry, ect. stolen through a 9" X 13" hole.

To keep this on topic, We got a great Amsec safe from him. It's a "16-gun" safe, and we've actually gotten 17 longguns in it!.

[Pure Kustom]

Amsec is also harder to skin because it is made out of one piece of sheet metal on the out side. Not 2 sides and a back then welded. The are the easyest to skin because the weldes were already ground down for the finish.
Amsec's a broke then the tops and bottoms are welded on or capped.

[MAKster]

Regarding the photo of the Liberty, how did he actually unlock the door bolts by reaching his hand in through the hole? I am skeptical that the door was actually opened by reaching in.

[a1abdj]

Regarding the photo of the Liberty, how did he actually unlock the door bolts by reaching his hand in through the hole? I am skeptical that the door was actually opened by reaching in.

The door was opened by a safe tech.

The safe was emptied through the hole in the side during the burglary (which lasted just minutes). One bad guy was beating the lock on the door, and the other bad guy was beating the side.

[heeler]

a1abdj...Do you have any idea of what sort of tool was used on the Liberty safe??
Having seen that picture a number of times on this site i have always been curious of this.
It looks as if the whole side of that safe is pock marked.
Wonder how long it actually took them??
One of my earlier posts on this thread i mentioned taking my three foot wood chopping axe to a 12 gauge trash dumpster,mainly because i have read on this site how easy one could do this to a 12 gauge safe and it was not all that easy to put a hole in the thing.
I know my axe is not a fire axe with the hardened spike but still to get a hole in that trash dumpster the size of that one on that Liberty safe seems to take a lot of effort.
And i weigh 175 pounds and am in pretty good shape.

[justindo]

Thanks for all of your replies.

I saw safes by Amsec, Fort Knox, Cannon, Liberty, and Champion this weekend in person. While they all had nice paint jobs, I walked away very, very impressed with the Amsec BF. When one looks at the BF compared to the others, I can't believe it is the same price or less than the others. The Amsec appeared to be a "real" safe in comparison to the others. They had a cutout cross-section of the Amsec steel and concrete wall and it sold me. While the 10 gauge outer wall isn't too thick, when one considers that it's from one piece of steel and that it is combined with concrete, it makes a formidable barrier. The 1/2" steel plate on the door is also something none of the others had.

The Fort Knox safes have nicer interiors, better paint jobs, and more bolts, but I'm not convinced they are better safes than the Amsec BFs. The cheapest Fort Knox I'd consider buying is the Executive, due to its 3/16" outer plate (the thickest Fort Knox offers) and that safe would cost more than double an equivalent Amsec BF model. To me that's not a good value, as I'd rather spend a little more and get a Graffunder.

a1abdj: Just out of curiosity, if you were a regular consumer buying an Amsec BF, what would be the maximum dollar amount in goods (e.g. guns, jewelry, coins, etc.) that you would feel comfortable storing in it? $10,000? $100,000? At what dollar amount in goods would you move up to a true safe like a Graffunder or one of the "High Security" safes you sell? Also, assuming both Amsec BF safes were bolted down, would it be harder to knock over a 6030 than a 6032 due to its squarer footprint? Thanks.

[a1abdj]

Do you have any idea of what sort of tool was used on the Liberty safe??


The burglars had an axe and a sledge hammer. If I had to guess, they started with the axe to tear the steel, and pounded it down using the sledge hammer.

Are you sure that dumpster was only 12 gauge? That seems pretty thin for something that would endure the abuse that a dumpster would.

if you were a regular consumer buying an Amsec BF, what would be the maximum dollar amount in goods (e.g. guns, jewelry, coins, etc.) that you would feel comfortable storing in it? $10,000? $100,000?

This gets a little complex, because there are other factors involved. Do you have an alarm? What type of police response times do you have? Nosey neighbors?

With just the safe, I'd probably be comfortable up to the $20K range so long as I had insurance on the contents. You could probably increase that slightly if the questions above were answered properly.

Anything over $25K in a stand alone unit should be kept in something more secure. By most standards, a B rate safe (1/2" door, 1/4" body) is not suitable for the overnight storage of cash in commercial service.

The TL-30's that we sell to jewelry stores are usually insurable in the $150K to $300K range depending on the insurance company. Storing cash cuts that number down to 10% of the posted figures.

[heeler]

A1abdj..Yes that dumpster was truely 12 gauge in body according to Roll Off's web site.
The floor is 10 gauge and other components like the framing was 7 gauge or 3/16th.
Strangely enough i looked up some other things on the web and found that those containerized cargo boxes used for shipping and that now you see every where today as storage buildings for farms,home owners and construction crews are made from 12 gauge or 14 gauge steel depending on the manufacterer.
That's the corrugated side walls and not the reinforced framing areas.

[Guy B. Meredith]

a1abdj

It seems I remember you or someone else mentioned a safe which is not commonly known as being the real deal but I cannot find the thread. Any ideas what that might have been?

[a1abdj]

It seems I remember you or someone else mentioned a safe which is not commonly known as being the real deal but I cannot find the thread. Any ideas what that might have been?

There are only three companies that I'm aware of that build a real safe with gun safe interiors.

AMSEC builds the RF6528. This is the only gun safe on the market with a UL burglary rating.

Graffunder builds safes ranging from B rate to F rate.

Brown also builds safes B rate and heavier.

I am not a fan of Brown, because I have seen some very poor products for the amount of money paid for them.

There are a number of other companies that build real commercial safes that you could buy and then install a gun safe interior.

[357phase]

If you can buy the best large safe,that's good.If you're like me and don't want to spend that much,you could buy two smaller well built safes.One for long guns and one for your hand guns and smaller items.That would take twice the time as breaking in to one safe of medium quality.I tossed the 3/8" anchors that came with mine and put 1/2" wedge anchors in place about 3" into the concrete.Those were as big as I could get through the hole without drilling bigger.Whatever you get,bolt it down.Your 1500lb safe might seem heavy but two strong men can take a hand truck and leave you an empty space in a few minutes.:(

[Powder_Burn]

Very helpful thread. Interesting - are all RSC's made with 10->12 gauge steel vulnerable to a brute force attack with common tools (prybar, axe, sledge, diamond bladed saw, etc.)? If so, it seems like the wise option for the OP would be to just buy a light, low-end 10 or 12 gauge RSC for under $1,000 unless one could afford $4,000+ for a real gun safe. Otherwise, one could spend lots of $$$ on RSC's in the gap between $1,000 and $4,000 but not really gain any security from a brute force attack. Am I wrong? Thanks for all the insight as I am shopping right now as well...

[a1abdj]

are all RSC's made with 10->12 gauge steel vulnerable to a brute force attack with common tools (prybar, axe, sledge, diamond bladed saw, etc.)?

UL thinks that A36 steel is vulnerable in all thicknesses less than 1 inch. In all honestly 1/4" is pretty tough, but can still be bent with pry bars. 1/2" is going to be pretty stout against most hand tools.

Otherwise, one could spend lots of $$$ on RSC's in the gap between $1,000 and $4,000 but not really gain any security from a brute force attack. Am I wrong?

This is what CB900F and I have been saying all along. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, you're right on the money.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

If you want a quote on an AMSEC, contact A1abdj. If you'd like a quote on a Graffunder, contact me.

900F

[justindo]

Would you say the Amsec BF series is the exception to the "not worth it under $4,000" rule?

[heeler]

Although i dont sell safes for a living i would say the Amsec BF is certainly the exception for an under 4k gun safe.
Where i live i can buy a gloss 60x30 Amsec BF for under 1800.00.
That's a lot less than 4k and it's a better box than anything out there at that price that is called a gun safe.

Please note what a1abdj mentioned previously about a 1/4 inch plate body safe with a 1/2 inch thick door for the most part is not suitable for storing cash for over night in a commercial application.
The reason is obvious.
What i am getting at is your gun safe at your home would be very hard to breach by most burglars who would enter your home with simple prying devices if it was put together have right at all.
That goes for your sub 1k 12 gauge safes or your premium priced units with a 3/16th body.
But if i entered your non alarmed home and had myself an 18 volt Dewalt sawzall i could even enter your 4k plus Graffunder in a matter of several minutes.
And if i had a fireaxe or 16 pound sledge hammer i could huff and puff my way into your 12 gauge gun safe as well.

We all want to secure our stuff and we all agree on that but sometimes we get to the point of straining gnats with this.
I think that BF will serve you or any of us well 99 per cent of the time.

[ImARugerFan]

I have a Liberty, made in the USA. I don't expect it to go anywhere. I should however bolt it to the ground....

[Beren]

Keep in mind that a RSC is only rated to survive five minutes under attack with common tools. I plan to buy an Amsec safe after I buy a house.

[heeler]

True Beren but that does not mean at the end of that five minutes you will be in that RSC.
I dont think i could enter that BF with a three pound hammer and an 18" crowbar in five minutes or even 30 minutes.
Maybe i could with some cheesy Chinese 12 gauge wonder but even then i think it would not be that easy.
After swinging my three foot wood chopping axe against that 12 gauge dumpster i mentioned a few days earlier in this thread i came away from that knowing using brute force against even a 12 gauge safe to breach is some work.
Doable but still an effort.

We had a build out in the commercial building i operate a few years ago and some one tried breaking into one of the Greenlee job boxes with a crow bar and failed and those things are only 16 gauge steel.
Steel aint no lightweight issue to get through.

[David1958]

I purchased an Amsec BF 6030 from a1abdj back in 12/06. Very happy with the safe (RSC) and every aspect of the transaction. However, I learned, like many others, that you should always buy a larger safe than you think you will need:o.......it's true!

[a1abdj]

Keep in mind that a RSC is only rated to survive five minutes under attack with common tools.

It's actually worse than this. The RSC is only rated to survive 5 minutes under attack from a hammer and large screwdriver. This test does not include any real pry bars, real hammers, power tools, or pressure applying devices.

The RSC label means nothing. This is a rating that you have to pay big money to get, but it doesn't really do anything other that misleading consumers even further. I would not purchase a safe based on whether or not it had a RSC rating.

[Sturdy Gun Safe, Mfg.]

My concern is the 7 gauge steel versus the 10 gauge w/concrete barrier.
This is a common mistake to think of when it comes to amsec safes fire protection.
* Not A Solid Material

DryLight or other cement compounds are not really like cement. It's a plaster-pars type of substance and although it adds a lot of weight, it's not sturdy. It's capable of breaking easily, so assuming cement would add to the thickness/security/strength of the safe would be incorrect.

* Some Types Weigh The Safe Down

Some gun safes with certain cement like compounds for fire insulators have weights that are ridiculously high. With safes that use 12 gauge steel, the weight will have too much pressure bearing down. Therefore, they have been known to literally fall out of square several years later. It also raises freight prices.

* It's Cheap

It doesn't cost the manufacturers much money to use this as an insulator, so it will seem like your getting a good deal.

* It's Is Not Good Enough

Cement compounds work best on smaller safes about 2 ft high and in really, really thick layers, unfortunately they do not work best for larger safes. When it comes to DryLight, a 90 minute rating at 1275 degrees is not much better than sheetrock's UL ratings for an insulator, and we all know sheetrock does not work like an insulator, but turns the safe into a dutch oven.

[MAKster]

While I agree that the cement-like fire insulation doesn't really add much as far as preventing break-ins, I think it is beneficial for fire protection. The dry wall insulation turns the inside of your safe into a 300 degree sauna and will lead to a rusty pile of metal before you can get the safe open.

[a1abdj]

This is a common mistake to think of when it comes to amsec safes fire protection.

Although I'll be the first to admit that many safe companies do many things that don't make much sense, I'm going to give AMSEC a little more credit here than you are.

After all, AMSEC is one of the largest safe manufacturers in the US that produces tens of thousands of safes each and every year. They have full time engineers on staff that work with these issues day in and day out. I'm confident that this issue was thought through, and the conclusion reached that this design was superior to others.

* Not A Solid Material

No "concrete" is a solid material. Gypsum board isn't solid either. It being "solid" isn't the point. Take an empty sand bag and fold it in half. Now, fill it with sand (not solid) and bend it in half.

Or....take that empty sand bag, lay it across your chest and let somebody swing a baseball bat at it. Now, try the same thing with it full of sand, and tell me if it makes a difference.

I'm not cheerleading AMSEC for any other reason than they build one heck of a product. Sturdy builds a better product than a lot of the big names too. I still think the AMSEC is better though :D

I'm not basing this opinion on what I read on the internet. I'm basing this opinion on 15 years of experience dealing with safes. 90% of my business is commercial, so if it's been burned, burgled, moved, or malfunctioned, I've seen it in person.

DryLight or other cement compounds are not really like cement. It's a plaster-pars type of substance and although it adds a lot of weight, it's not sturdy. It's capable of breaking easily, so assuming cement would add to the thickness/security/strength of the safe would be incorrect.

So let's discuss the 99% of safes built between 1850 and 1930 that were built like this. There are a lot of these safes still in use today, and for obvious reasons.

The fill material itself is not hard like steel, and it doesn't add "a lot" of weight, because it doesn't have a lot of moisture inside of it. It is not a material that you would use for a driveway or a building, but that's not what it was engineered to do.

The weakness of any steel on a brute force attack is the steel flexing. The more rigid the steel is, the longer the safe is going to remain intact. There are essentially three ways of making steel rigid:

Use thick steel. This is obviously the best choice, but creates two big issues. Steel is expensive, and steel is heavy. So now you have a really expensive safe that is too heavy to go into a house.

Form the steel into a rigid shape. Think I beams, or car frames. If you shape a thinner piece of steel, it becomes much more rigid. This can work out for the door frame of a safe, but you can't really do this with the safe body or door.

Lastly, you can Sandwich the steel onto another rigid material. Think cardboard. On its own, the paper is very weak. Take two weak pieces of paper, and place them on either side of more weak paper with some glue, and all of a sudden it becomes very rigid.

So now the question becomes this: Is Sturdy's 7 gauge steel body more or less secure than AMSEC which uses a 10 gauge steel body, 2 inches of composite fill, and a 16 gauge inner liner.

I am not an engineer, but here's the simple math. The Sturdy has a body that offers a total steel barrier thickness of .1793". The AMSEC has a outer steel barrier thickness of .1345", and inner steel barrier thickness of .0598" for a total steel barrier thickness of .1943". So AMSEC is using more steel than the Sturdy, not counting the rigid fill material between the steel layers.

* Some Types Weigh The Safe Down

Some gun safes with certain cement like compounds for fire insulators have weights that are ridiculously high. With safes that use 12 gauge steel, the weight will have too much pressure bearing down. Therefore, they have been known to literally fall out of square several years later. It also raises freight prices.

Safes are supposed to be heavy.

Please tell me which gun safe manufacturers (there are only two that I'm aware of) sell gun safes with ridiculously high weights as a result of the fire fill.

If you could also tell me which 12 gauge safes using this construction method have had issues with their "squareness" I would also like to know.

The vast majority of fire rated safes and file cabinets have been built using the exact same method you describe for over 150 years.

* It's Cheap

It doesn't cost the manufacturers much money to use this as an insulator, so it will seem like your getting a good deal.

Drywall is much more expensive :D

It's not the material that adds cost, it's the process. Filling a safe with any type of fill material is much more labor intensive, and requires a variety of machinery.

* It's Is Not Good Enough

Cement compounds work best on smaller safes about 2 ft high and in really, really thick layers, unfortunately they do not work best for larger safes. When it comes to DryLight, a 90 minute rating at 1275 degrees is not much better than sheetrock's UL ratings for an insulator, and we all know sheetrock does not work like an insulator, but turns the safe into a dutch oven.

Then please tell me why every major safe manufacturer that builds fire rated safes builds all these huge safes with UL ratings. If these 6' and 7' tall safes using these cement compounds don't work, then UL must be wrong.....Especially on the safes that will withstand 1800 degree temperatures for four hours.

Sheetrock is not UL rated as an insulator, and to my knowledge, no UL fire rated safe exists which uses gypsum board. UL rates drywall as a flame barrier for construction purposes. A cement filled safe will outperform a drywall lined safe in a fire everytime.

There are other products gun safe manufacturers have used as well, but the bottom line is this. Millions of cement filled safes are being used daily, and the only safes with the UL fire ratings are cement filled. If all of the other methods were better, wouldn't more real safe companies be using them?

[waterhouse]

I don't know much about RSCs. In this thread we have (at least) 2 very knowledgeable safe dealers and a safe manufacturer. They can provide much better advice than I can, so I won't try to comment on which "safe" is better.

I will say that I bought a Sturdy safe, and I was very happy with both the service and communication from the company. I'm very pleased with my "safe." It doesn't have pretty glossy paint or anything, so you might not want it sitting in your living room, but I believe it to be a very good value. I have a 7 gauge one without the fire liner.

[lonegunman]

I own two AMSEC safes and think they are money well spent. They were fine when I bolted them to a wood floor in a hundred year old house and they are fine on concrete.

Buy more safe than you need and it will be money well spent.

[jasper275]

Waterhouse:

I got a sturdy too, but went with the fire-lining. Pleased with it immensely. Great customer service. I wish they'd have maybe put a little more effort/materials in the handle to improve its quality though. Botched the tricky corner decals too. All in all satisfied.

[Pure Kustom]

I was going to give my .02
But a1abdj allready said everything I was going to say. :D

[nofishbob]

Do any reasonable safes offer ANY protection from a torch or plasma cutter?

I am planning to build my own safe, but everytime I look at how compact my plasma cutter is, and how cheap they are, I get discouraged.

I thought I read about a layer of material inside some safes that burns with a noxious smoke when the steel is cut with a torch, but i could never find out what that coating was.

Any info or ideas would be appreciated!

Bob

[a1abdj]

Do any reasonable safes offer ANY protection from a torch or plasma cutter?


If by reasonable you mean cheap, then no. However, there are plenty of reasonably priced safes that are designed to do this, probably starting in the $8,000 range.

Small plasma cutters don't cut thick steel well. Many of these safes use thicker steel plates with copper behind them to disperse the heat of a torch.

Modern composite safes use "concrete" fill materials which are naturally resistant to heat.

Keep in mind that most safes designed to thwart serious attacks are going to house serious valuables. We have customers that will spend $100,000 on a safe without blinking an eye.

It's an ongoing joke that we share with our customers, but your best bet is to lock up your tools (inside of the safe). Most criminals are not carrying plasma cutters with them. They will either take the entire safe to where they have the tools, or use the tools found near your safe. If they can't get to your tools, you're already one step ahead.

[jakemccoy]

This thread confirms my theory that you either go cheap (e.g., Stack On) or go for the gold (e.g., AMSEC, Sturdy Safe, etc.).

Messing around with safes in between is a waste of money if you take a few moments to analyze the situation.

Fire Protection... For me in California, only an over-the-top security system could protect my belongings against a California fire. I'll bet some others have not stopped to think about the severity of a real house fire.

Theft Protection... I figure I'm dealing with either an non-dedicated thief or a dedicated thief. A dedicated thief can get into almost anything, but will have trouble with the top quality safes. That's fine. I have a lower-end safe with insurance. A smash-and-grab thief isn't going to mess with a Stack-On safe that's well-bolted down and in an inconvenient location.

With my cheaper safe, I still keep out kids, wandering guests, and non-dedicated thieves, and I save thousands.

[justindo]

I appreciate the continuation of this topic as I haven't yet made a decision on which safe I'm going to purchase. Thanks to all participants and especially to a1abdj and Sturdy Safe.

[krs]

It's an ongoing joke that we share with our customers, but your best bet is to lock up your tools (inside of the safe). Most criminals are not carrying plasma cutters with them. They will either take the entire safe to where they have the tools, or use the tools found near your safe. If they can't get to your tools, you're already one step ahead.__________________

Not such a joke, I have a GS-6 combination file safe cabinet in my shop for just that purpose. I was able to fit my 10 ton hydraulic ram kit, my portable plasma cutter and the extension cords that could reach my gun's secure storage from my 220 50 amp outlets in the shop so they won't be able to just roll the bigger cutter through the house and use it. I set a pepper spray bomb in the shop that'll make anything that moves in there too miserable to break into that file safe.

It's tough for anyone to justify the expenses of really good secure safes. Most of the gunsafes on the market are just not worth their $1000. - $3000. pricetags and there's no single answer to burglary anyway. No safe that will stop a determined and knowledgable burglar. Don't assume that all home invasions are committed by dufus druggies with skinny white needle tracked arms. There are people who make a career of it and act like professionals do in other technical fields.

Adjust your thinking to compensate for not wanting to budget a jewelry store vault like safe. I've been turning my whole house into a maelstrom - a burglar's bad day.


I've set up a combination of secured areas, a network of misery I like to call it.

I've put grade 2 locks on every door in the house so they think there's something good to steal in each closet and bathroom. I bought fifteen keyed alike Schlage entry locks in ebay for $14. each shipped and have them on every door in this house - even the linen closet. We don't, of course, lock them when home. I just liked the idea of the burglar having to do his burglary thing over and over, just to find out what's behind the door.

Use solid doors, not hollow cores and put grade 1 deadbolts - preferably two of them at entry points. Take a look at a device called "The Ultimate Lock".

A good alarm system with sirens and bright strobes coming from at least one place in every room. 'Burglar Bombs' at selected locations where you want extra deterance. It's really amazing what kind of thing you can do if you put together your own alarm, and there's full time monitoring available for about $9.00 a month that's at least as good and probably better than anything provided by the major players for four times as much on contract.

My "den" or inside shop, or whatever this is called has the gunsafe and IS the gunsafe too.. I got tired of having to lock up my beauties every time we left. I've been building this room up over five years to be the most secure area in a pretty secure house and I think that by the time some burglar gets to this room he'll be half crazy from noise, flashing lights, locks everywhere and his own frazzled nerves that he'll take one look at the door that looks like a mideivel oak and steel bolted together torture chamber door that he'll decide to forget it and haul out of here if he still has time before the cops get here.

If someone breaks into my house while my wife, dog, and I are gone they're going to think they fell into the depths of Hell. The cops will catch them at the bottom of my driveway and be forced to 5150 them because of their incoherent babbling, their deafness, and their inability to breath.

If I could use concussion grenades without wrecking things in here they'd be bleeding out of their ears too.


I've made a hobby out of my imaginary burglar's miserable encounter here, and keep adding new traps as I think them up. :)

[Rustinorygun]

I just bought a American Security 6030 gun safe and during the installation the locksmiths had to take the inner door panel off. It was to my dismay that I saw that the hinge side 1 1/2 diameter locking bolts were just stubs bolted onto the surface with a 3/8 inch bolt holding each one into place. In short, on the hinge side there just 5, 3/8 inch effective bolts plus the external hinges for security. The 10 "massive locking bolts" seem to be an advertising ploy when in reality there just 5 bolts engaging the inner door frame opposite the hinge . Is this something that I should address or not worry about it?

[nofishbob]

Rustinorygun:

I would be very angry about this and attempt to get some sort of restitution from the manufacturer.

If I am looking at the correct AMSEC model, your safe has external hinges. It does not offer much security if there are no hing-side locking bolts. All you have to do is saw the hinges, and the safe is open.

I saw AMSEC's specs on their website stating that there was TEN locking bolts. Having only five seems really dishonest and fraudulent.

Sorry this had to happen.

Bob

[a1abdj]

I just bought a American Security 6030 gun safe and during the installation the locksmiths had to take the inner door panel off. It was to my dismay that I saw that the hinge side 1 1/2 diameter locking bolts were just stubs bolted onto the surface with a 3/8 inch bolt holding each one into place. In short, on the hinge side there just 5, 3/8 inch effective bolts plus the external hinges for security. The 10 "massive locking bolts" seem to be an advertising ploy when in reality there just 5 bolts engaging the inner door frame opposite the hinge . Is this something that I should address or not worry about it?

This is very common among all safe manufacturers. Dead bolts (which are locking, but not live) are commonly welded or bolted onto the door frame.

To know if it matters, you would need to know the shear strength of the bolts. I'll tell you this: A common nail usually has a sheer strength of thousands of pounds. From a quick google search, I'm getting numbers ranging from 7,500 pounds to 8,200 pounds for 3/8" bolts.

In other words, those five 3/8" bolts will withstand anywhere from 35,000 to 40,000 pounds of force. I doubt the door frame would.

Whether a safe has 2" bolts or 1/4" bolts really doesn't matter. In almost every case, the frame is weaker than the door bolts.

I would be very angry about this and attempt to get some sort of restitution from the manufacturer.

Restitution for what?

If I am looking at the correct AMSEC model, your safe has external hinges. It does not offer much security if there are no hing-side locking bolts. All you have to do is saw the hinges, and the safe is open.

There are 5 bolts on the hinge side, each being secured with a threaded bolt to the door frame. I don't know why they aren't welded, but I would venture to guess that the bolt method provides greater strength than a surface weld.

I saw AMSEC's specs on their website stating that there was TEN locking bolts. Having only five seems really dishonest and fraudulent.

There are 5 live locking bolts on the opening side, and 5 dead locking bolts on the hinge side. All ten are accounted for.

[nofishbob]

a1abdj:

Sorry- I misunderstood what Rustinorygun meant when he said "stubs bolted to the surface". I thought they were cosmetic only, not dead locking bolts.

Either way, the 3/8" bolts would not be loaded in pure shear. The hinge side door frame would not be able to constrain the locking bolts to remain perpendicular with the door frame. The load on these bolts would tend to load the 3/8" bolts primarily in a tension mode, where they are resisting a force applied 90 degrees to the long axis of the bolt. This force would attempt to rock the large locking bolt away from the surface that it is bolted to, loading the 3/8" bolts in tension.

This design may very well be strong enough, but Rustinorygun obviously thought he was getting live bolts all around, and was disappointed. I guess more information while shopping is a good thing....

Bob

[Rustinorygun]

I knew that the 'dead' bolts were just that, dead. I just thought that with the reputation Amsec has that they would be anchored in more of a stout manner, ie; bored through the frame of the door to and then anchored to make more use of the cross sectional area and create more resistance to tear out. Granted the bolt may have a 6000+ psi tensile but you have to look at the steel that the head of the bolt engages (thickness X surface area) I see that as the weak point.

[a1abdj]

It is a weak point, but you have to look it at in context.

Tool rated safes using 1" A36 solid plate are only rated to 60,000 lbs of applied force (don't quote me on this, as I'm going from memory). Most criminals aren't carrying around equipment capable of this. The closest you're going to see is a porta power, and there's not a lot of gun safes that are going to to be able to stop that.

There are many safes with real burglar ratings that use similar construction methods. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

[Rustinorygun]

Thats what I needed to hear,,,, Thanks!

[a1abdj]

For the record, I think just about every time I've had a customer standing behind me when I've removed the door cover, they've been disappointed. I think they're expecting something similiar to the round bank vault doors with all of the gears.

It doesn't really matter what type of safe it is, or who makes it. Although they function as intended, they certainly don't look impressive. You also get to see some interesting things that aren't visable on the outside. Things like inferior welds, boot prints on the fireboard where they kicked it in place because it fit poorly, and bent, incorrect, or completely missing parts.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

One thing that's easy to check for, and makes a huge protective difference is this: Is the frame that the bolts lock up behind plate steel, or folded sheet metal?

If you've seen the Youtube video "Security On Sale", you've seen a graphic demonstration of how ineffective a sheet metal frame is. If it doesn't immediately and obviously look like plate, it almost certainly isn't. IMHO, what the container then is, is a high-priced locker.

900F

[justindo]

Is the Amsec BF frame that the bolts lock up behind plate steel or folded sheet metal? Thanks.

[a1abdj]

Is the Amsec BF frame that the bolts lock up behind plate steel or folded sheet metal? Thanks.

It's folded 10 gauge steel, but it's not the same as most of the other gun safes.

On the AMSEC, the steel folds back into, and is secured into, the body of the safe. The "shape" it makes is filled with the same fill material that is in the rest of the body.

It is very rigid, and much stronger than your typical gun safe configuration.

[justindo]

Thanks, a1abdj!

[Auslander21]

Having worked in several types of industrial environments that did everything from metal fabrication to high-voltage control systems, it seems to be the way to go is layered protection.

While lethal booby traps are generally frowned upon, I wonder what the option to use CS/OC and an extremely high-voltage microamp capacitance system would excite in terms of legal objections?

How about:

1) A good RSC with lockable hold down bolts in heavy and unwieldy supports, say some I-Beams or U-Channel that can fit through a closet door and be turned 90 degrees to slide in place, but cannot be removed without unlocking the bolts from underneath - use Grade 8 bolts, put high-strength padlocks through holes drilled through. Hard to get to, hard to manuever tools around inside a close area.

2) A simple timer and digital keypad would give you off/on control or use IR motion-sensors and pressure mats to start the arming timer.

3) However you activate the arming control, if the door opens - they get a CS/OC grenade or two inside the safe - mess to clean up, but makes the contents hard to handle even if the chemicals don't get to their skin and face. Keep anything valuable in Blue Bags or similar.

4) Put a simple steel mesh net on sliders in front of the door, make sure the grounding to the floor is done correctly

5) Moving the mesh triggers an electrical discharge - anything from a Tesla coil high-energy arc that only frightens to a modulated wave similar to a Taser discharge that disables. Of course, you better have your ammo and flammables in a Faraday box. If you want to be cute, just put a Taser behind a sheet of tissue paper and trigger it when any weapon in the gun rack is pulled out. Just the Taser dart packs with an appropriate trigger and power source connection would offer multiple angles of attack.

6) ALL of this depends on your being very aware of the devices, having some not so obvious way of telling if it is armed (pulse the alarm, blink the lights in the room, LED somewhere you can see it if you look). Test, test and test again your arming circuits! Then test every few months, etc. Use that light/dehumidifier outlet to plug in a rechargeable power source with a surge protector and quick disconnect if pulled or a power surge occurs so no tampering by trying to burn out the system through the power connection will work.

7) Also, this is obviously not for quick access. However, unlocking the safe and punching in a 6-digit code or using a fingerprint pad takes seconds.

Sounds a bit elaborate, but if you have ever worked with digital timers and controls, it shouldn't take more than a few hours to construct. Depending on how elaborate you get, you could spend a couple of hundred or several thousand - smart sensors, thermal detectors, etc. - cheaper to buy a serious safe once you go giddy at the electronics store. Cheap FLIR and a processor/controller is still several thousand bucks. Having a nice shreiking siren in an inhabited neighborhood with multiple triggers may work; if it is a business or not within hearing distance of neighbors - perhaps a standard cell or telephone alarm attached to the motion sensors/pressure mat/window sensors/etc. to call whomever.

Too bad pressure plate triggered AP mines are considered overkill by the legal establishment, but if one must compromise . . .

Then there's always a heavy-duty hysteresis circuit around the door, but your power bills would be astronomical if you ran it full time. Not to mention it would have to put out a serious field to work as the guns were being moved through it. Simpler to just wire an old transformer to the safe itself and spray highly conductive fluid (something like sulfuric acid or potassium hydroxide, maybe) from a fire-suppression nozzle. Again, you'd want to build a Faraday box to isolate the guns. Darn it - I bet there's some silly rule against that, too.

[Deltaboy]

Thanks for all the info.:D

[sarj]

I also want to thank you guys for the professionalism and patience in answering all these questions. I feel pretty informed about what I'm about to purchase as a result, Much obliged.

[Grislic]

Sarj / Justindo.
Any update on the purchase? Curious which one you went with as I am also trying to decide.

[Z-Michigan]

I know I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but wanted to mention that I bought a Sturdy safe about a month ago and have been completely happy with it. Their website does an excellent job of showing the features, and if you get a quote you can talk with Alyssa or Terry and get any question you could have answered.

FWIW I was not aware of the Amsec BF series mentioned here. I had visited a local safe dealer/repair store and inquired about safes up to TL-30 but they didn't bother to mention the Amsec BF series despite being an Amsec dealer. They pretty much said they didn't recommend any of the gun safes they sold! (It is possible that this dealer wasn't aware of the BF series - in my area most people looking for "gun safes" are looking at cheaply made RSC's.)

My short take on the Sturdy is that it is a simple, well designed and extremely solid safe/RSC that is in a higher league than any "gun safe" I've seen sold in sporting goods or gun stores. It is not a TL15 or higher but I am quite happy with it. Now I would be reasonable and not rely on a Sturdy safe if you have pre-1986 machineguns or other exceptionally valuable items (for which I'd be thinking TL-60 or a dedicated vault), but for 99% of us I think it is an extremely solid storage "safe" and a good value.

[Grislic]

Z-Michigan,
Did you have to hire a moving company to place your safe? I am very interested in the Sturdy 3527-6 with fire lining, but from the three or four movers I have talked to, they all want from $500 to $600 to move it from the curb (where it would be drop shipped to) to my basement. With that added expense the BF looks like a bargain, as the Amsec dealer will place it for under $200.

[Z-Michigan]

My safe is bolted to the garage floor and we moved it off its pallet ourselves with some effort. Because I have a 900' driveway I was able to get the trucking company to deliver the safe on my garage floor using a liftgate and pallet jack. Getting it in the house would have definitely required movers. Around here none of the safe and lock companies would move a safe for money (which seemed odd), but they recommended piano movers and that was an option - but not far from the $500 range.

I would recommend bolting down any safe you get, and you should look at the bolt-down arrangement for each option you're considering. You may need help or special tools unless you have a really well stocked workshop. For instance, drilling good holes in concrete requires a hammer drill, which I didn't have - but an uncle of mine does, which worked out well.