Firing G3/HK91 with collapsible stock, historical question.


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TexasRifleman
October 4, 2008, 05:01 PM
Wondering if the G3 models with collapsing stocks were ever fired in that position by nations that deployed them as a standard operating procedure.

I've searched all over for info on this and all I find is this one picture of some Portugese soldiers, but they have no magazines so it's hard to say if they would actually shoot them like this :)

Anyone have a reference book or know anything about this?

No reason other than historical curiosity.

Thanks.

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/G3.jpg

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tntwatt
October 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
don't know about actual field use. but I tried and absolutely hated the collapsable stock on mine. german original and sucks. I'd imagine it's usefull for CQC. but for actual use as a "shoulder" weapon I found it totally useless. Mine will always have the full or even better, the magpul.

TexasRifleman
October 4, 2008, 05:27 PM
Oh I've fired one on full auto with the collapsing stock many years ago and I have no interest in ever doing it again LOL. Much nastiness :)

I'm just wondering about the historical use of that stock, whether it was actually fired from the shoulder while collapsed or simply used as a method of making the rifle shorter for carrying etc.

rfurtkamp
October 4, 2008, 09:29 PM
Soldier + can = did.

Since it can be fired from that position, someone somewhere did it with an issued gun.

Doubt you're going to find photos or documented accounts of it though.

stubbicatt
October 4, 2008, 09:36 PM
I don't know how it is with the G3, but the HK33 with the collapsible stock is just fine.

Bwana John
October 4, 2008, 10:06 PM
The Mexican Army Mechinized Calvery uses the G-3 A4 extensivly, their Manual of Arms calls for extending the stock before firing.

The stock is kept collaped unless the weapon is being presented, or fired.

TexasRifleman
October 4, 2008, 10:17 PM
The Mexican Army Mechinized Calvery uses the G-3 A4 extensivly, their Manual of Arms calls for extending the stock before firing.

The stock is kept collaped unless the weapon is being presented, or fired.

Thanks. THAT is what I'm looking for. I have no doubt some soldiers did it now and then, I was just trying to see if any group ever documented this as being SOP.

I saw the picture of the Portugese Army above and it made me wonder.

MGshaggy
October 5, 2008, 08:46 AM
Tex-

Just a thought, but perhaps the heli in the background may have something to do with it. My guess is that they keep stocks retracted while in the aircraft for a little more maneuverability and ease of getting a lot of guys out of there quickly. Coming out of the heli, though, I wonder if its just SOP to immediately have some take a position the ground, guns out, and ready to lay down some covering fire, before even wasting time to fiddle with stocks - it doesn't have to be deadly accurate at that point, just close enough to keep the enemy's head down while the rest of your guys get out and the heli has a chance to get away.

TexasRifleman
October 5, 2008, 09:44 AM
My guess is that they keep stocks retracted while in the aircraft for a little more maneuverability and ease of getting a lot of guys out of there quickly. Coming out of the heli, though, I wonder if its just SOP to immediately have some take a position the ground, guns out, and ready to lay down some covering fire, before even wasting time to fiddle with stocks -

Probably the right guess.

I just saw this picture and it made me start to wonder.

Thanks for taking the time to think about it, it's not real high on the importance list lol.

Soap
October 5, 2008, 11:20 AM
Experienced Guy on the Left: "What the hell are you guys doing with your stocks retracted!?"

SlamFire1
October 5, 2008, 01:43 PM
My German made, GI issue collapsible stock was way too short for me. If you are six feet tall, and not wearing body armor, you may find it is too short for you too.

Really makes the weapon very compact. Drops a lot of weight, I decided not to shoot it as the pad was small and the rifle kicks hard enough as is.

I suspect that is why most of the HK91 pictures show the regular buttstock.

sinistr
October 5, 2008, 06:05 PM
iirc it's for paratroopers ,so they don't crack their jaw on the butt when they land.

ktd
October 11, 2008, 12:56 PM
Traditionally, the idea was to use the retracting/folding feature for confined space carry, mostly in aircraft, which is why many of these rifles are called "paras".

I would guess that being able to use the rifle was in many cases secondary, as many designs prevent one from accessing the safety or mag release or such with the stock folded. In some cases with non-folders, the practice is to take the weapon apart and carry it in a bag to reduce its length.

In shooting you do not get any advantage to firing with the stock retracted. I would think that no manual would ever say to do that, kind of like no car manual would say to drive on flat tires on the highway. Sure you could do it, but why would you advise someone of that? Interestingly, a lot of anti-gunners wanted to ban assualt rifles with folding stocks because they were designed to be "shot from the hip" or some such junk. Although I think I have seen photos of Soviet troops dismounting from APC's with the stocks folding and firing, but who knows what is official practice. Probably the same with this photo. Shooting with the stock folded on the line is the kind of thing that gets a "stop horsing around" yell from the drill sgt.

In the old days (80's-90's) many of us did not like the CAR15 telescoping stock because it did not do much to reduce length, and was kind of a hokey stock. Some actually used full length fixed stocks with short barrels, or preferred rifles with side folders if we really wanted compactness. These days M4 stocks are now considered cool because we all wear body armour, and the adjustable feature is now handy.

Ed DCB
October 11, 2008, 05:57 PM
Stock was retracted mainly for parachute jump and confined spaces like armoured vehicles ( MP 2 aka UZI was the main gun of armoured vehicles crew)

Realbigo
October 11, 2008, 06:09 PM
When I was still in High School I saw a Documentery about a joint training OP where the German Airborn, Norweign Jager Co., and elements of the USMC Mountain warfare cadre went against one of the US Army Regt. in Germany. One of the scenes showed a DET of the Jagers clearing a building. SOP seemed to be: toss grenade; Wait for it to go bang; two on either side of the window, or door would then spray the room, from the hip. And yes they had the butstocks retracted.

lrrs1
February 11, 2009, 09:42 AM
I know this is an old thread, but I have hands on experience with this. In 1996 I was stationed at Ft. Bragg and we went to Germany to train with the German paratroopers. This included quite a few live fire exercises. We did not take our weapons over there, we used their G3s and MGs. The G3s used had the retractable buttstock, they used steel mags and the G3 was a brute of a weapon. Heavy and built like a tank. When shooting on the range, we used the stocks in the open position. We did some MOUT (urban for you civies) training and there were several times I went into a room on rock and roll with the stock completely retracted. It does get a bit squirrely like that considering the power of the round it shoots. To answer your question, do they shoot the weapon with the stock retracted, the answer is yes. Obviously it depends on the situation, you won't go on the qualification range and shoot it like that. So there you go. +1 for the jumps, the stock makes the weapon easier to jump. +1 for the chopper rides, it makes it easier to maneuver in a chopper. +1 for MOUT, much more maneuverable when clearing rooms.
Oh yeah, I got a bloody nose and a nice bruise on my cheek from the first qual I did with the G3. Not exactly meant for a tight cheek weld, LOL. The G3 was an awesome weapon though, and I now own a PTR for that reason, still contemplating putting on one of these stocks cause every once in a while I need a sock in the face to straighten me out....

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