Dpms Ar?


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camoman33935
October 5, 2008, 07:56 PM
Just want to know if this is a good brand to buy and what yalls experience has been with these

this is the one I'm lookin at

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_787/products_id/411535083

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Dutchman01
October 5, 2008, 08:10 PM
I was looking at a similar model in .308 at a local gunshop. I asked about the reliability seeing as how it was an ar based rifle and all. The owner of the shop told me it had a tendancy to jam early on but seemed to get better with time. He seemed to feel a breakin period was needed.

NavajoNPaleFace
October 5, 2008, 11:22 PM
I bought a DPMS AP4 (civilian version of the military M4) and it shoots great.

I toped it off with a tactical 3x9-34 scope and I've only put about 400 rounds of test loads through it but not a nary jam.

Special_K
October 5, 2008, 11:28 PM
Have the same rifle with an A-2 Stock. Shoots everything including wolf through it and works great. My only regret is not getting a flattop for mounting optics instead of the iron sights. No problems with jamming and the factory trigger is slightly heavy but very short.

:) I like it!

LJH
October 5, 2008, 11:32 PM
Its a good rifle but I dont much care for A1 sights. Special K hit the nail on the head with the idea of getting a flattop.

W.E.G.
October 6, 2008, 12:30 AM
DPMS is good product.

Just make sure you get the one with the features you want.

Keep buying until you get as many combinations as you "need."

Let us know when you get that figured out.

camoman33935
October 7, 2008, 01:59 PM
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get this one along with a bunch of mags and ammo

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_787/products_id/411535083

and maybe another upper in 7.62x39

possum
October 7, 2008, 09:11 PM
Dpms Ar?

Just want to know if this is a good brand to buy and what yalls experience has been with these

this is the one I'm lookin at

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...s_id/411535083
they are great for a little shooting here and there at the range, but i wouldn't take one to a training course or run one too hard, they don't seem to perform as well under hard use like many other models from other makers out there.

Brian Williams
October 7, 2008, 09:19 PM
I would not mind the Sportical, simple lightweight.

Timradcliffe345
October 7, 2008, 11:12 PM
I would say DPMS is not a good brand. There are a lot of better options out there. For a little more $$ you can acquire a quality weapon.

If you're looking for an AR15 that will perform when called for, take a look at the following chart for comparison purposes.

(Please note that these are all M4 style AR15s of varying degrees of quality)


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/Charts/080904-AR15-Chart-FEATURES.jpg

camoman33935
October 7, 2008, 11:26 PM
so your saying that DPMS is not up to the standards of their competitors?

What do you think about the S&W M&P15

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_763/products_id/36913

It's a couple hundred bucks more but if it will last longer than the DPMS and perform better when its run hard shooting, I figure it's worth the extra money.

The chart that was posted really helped

Thanks

SevenŠ
October 7, 2008, 11:31 PM
So, according to the chart posted above; DPMS offers a longer warranty than Colt, S&W, or Bushmaster. Just saying.

Timradcliffe345
October 8, 2008, 11:34 AM
camoman33935: The DPMS is NOT up to the same standard as the other competitors.

The best bang for the buck is the Charles Daly D-M4LE and the S&W. Get something that will serve you well and last a long time - I personally would. We're potentially facing a new ban, why purchase a lower quality AR15 if you might never get a chance to purchase another?

Browse over to www.m4carbine.net to learn more about the AR15 system.

Hope this helps. Have a good day.

lmccrock
October 8, 2008, 12:04 PM
DPMS is not bad. Not everyone is an Operator needing the best.

As other posts said, the A1 sights on the linked-to model are limiting and my old eyes work better with optics.

Lee

possum
October 8, 2008, 12:09 PM
What do you think about the S&W M&P15
If you can get a Stag built m&p then you will be good to go for sure.
So, according to the chart posted above; DPMS offers a longer warranty than Colt, S&W, or Bushmaster. Just saying.
if you get a good brand that performs you won't need that warranty anyway. and most gun makers today will take care of you even if you are outside the warranty window, just talk to them and be personable. For example kimber.

warranties on handguns are a big deal to me, but when it comes to ar's. i will either replace the inerds anyway, and/or i know how and don't need to send anything back.

fletcher
October 8, 2008, 12:42 PM
DPMS is fine - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Just know that it is not a top of the line rifle, but it's good and it works well as a range gun.

Soke
October 8, 2008, 12:58 PM
We're potentially facing a new ban, why purchase a lower quality AR15 if you might never get a chance to purchase another?

Cost/Time(potential ban) restraints :(

NavajoNPaleFace
October 8, 2008, 02:57 PM
Quote by possum: they are great for a little shooting here and there at the range, but i wouldn't take one to a training course or run one too hard, they don't seem to perform as well under hard use like many other models from other makers out there.


I can appreciate everyone has a right to their opinion but what is your basis for saying that? I am NOT trying to be arguementative but it would be helpful for information and a learning experience.

Are your observations from personal experiences or what you have read, etc?

Is it a matter of internal parts integrity...overall metalurgy, workmanship, strength of structure, or....?

I've personally known people who dismiss a particular brand while others have very good or decent luck with it. Sometimes people tend to relate negative issues based on what happened to them and that might not be inherant to others.

I don't put much into charts since anyone can slight a survey or chart to their benefit.

Soke
October 8, 2008, 04:20 PM
I would like to know as well. I hear things like this all the time and that AR's of this quality cant be used for anymore then going to the range which makes me stray from them.

feedthehogs
October 8, 2008, 10:17 PM
You can put up a chart with all kinds of features and some will shine and some will not.

It doesn't like many other charts, tell the whole story.

A better indication would be a chart based on failures vs rounds fired for each manufacture.

If you based buying a car on a chart designed like the one posted, Volvo's would be the only car that shines.

But strange how a lowly Saturn will run 100's of thousands of miles safely with little to no maintenace.

cat9x
October 9, 2008, 08:40 AM
Get what YOU want whatever brand that is.

People can debate on QC and this and that, when it comes down to it there is Colt then there are the rest. IMHO

NC-Mike
October 9, 2008, 06:41 PM
I just put a DPMS AP4 Carbine together and had it out to the range today. I fired about fifty rounds and never had a problem.

My Bushmaster M4 choked quite a few times during the first 100 rounds through it. It may have had tighter tolerances and needed to loosen up?

Anyway, the DPMS seems like its a good rifle. Has a better trigger than my Bushies too. :)

innerpiece
October 9, 2008, 08:17 PM
Im finally getting a DPMS Sportical next week. lookin foreward to makein some reports on it.

ip.

theken206
October 9, 2008, 08:28 PM
I have a few thousand rounds threw my AP4 and have gone around as much as 500-600 rounds with out fullyy cleaning it, it gets treated like a work horse like all my other firearms as well, it gets DIRTY AND DUSTY AND COLD AND WET and hasnt failed me yet but once or twice all that was required was to use to forward assist.

I have a ACOG on it and its damn accurate with good ammo.

That chart is off a bit by the way. It does indeed have m4 feed ramps and IIRC one guy on here said the gas key was stoked to spec on his

the barell is indeed 4140 chrome-moly steel though

possum
October 9, 2008, 08:28 PM
Are your observations from personal experiences or what you have read, etc?
i don't do that he said she said bs. when i state something on this forum it is fact that i know to be true, or something that i have seen/experienced myself.

i am not a weekend warrior, and i am not a square range tiny size group shooter, i train for a fight, therefore i run my guns hard, and i go to training courses. Put it this way i have spent 10days of my life in carbine training courses at a big named company that deals with training, the majority of issues were with DPMS rifles, i didn't dissect the guns when they went down, i didn't have time to get all the details, as i am worried about my training and not so much about the other people there, i would however make notes on brand and such if something did happen. the only time a stag, a bushmaster( i used one), a colt would have trouble was when the operator didn't lube properly. I will have to try to find my notes for the exact amount of issues and numbers of guns that went down. i didn't have any issues, i love grease.

furthermore, there are folks out there that see more rounds fired down range a year than 99% will shoot in their lifetime, and i have mad respect for them and their opinions, they say that a certain gun, piece of gear etc isn't a fighting gun, or something worth staking your life on then i am gonna take note of that.

So not only do i have personal experience with folks with guns that went down hard, many experts in the field and many people's experience and opinions that i take very seriously have nothing good to say about dpms. none of my opinions are based soley on the fact of what someone else has said.

95% of gun owners/ "shooters" will be served just fine with a lower grade ar15 like the dpms, and olympic arms. and 95% will never see the need and the reason for the gun that cost a little more, but runs 100% better.

Dookie
October 9, 2008, 09:04 PM
I spent a lot of time looking for an AR and finally settled on a DPMS LoPro Classic, it was in my price range, under $700, it had everything I wanted, flat top, bull barrel, except an adjustable stock. It shoots perfect with no problems, put almost 1,000 rounds through it and not a single issue, no feeding problem, no ejection problems, nothing.

The ONLY issue was the trigger, I am so used to all my timney, rifle basix and such that it was a tank. Nothing a new trigger can't fix.

I would definitely buy a DPMS again. In fact my current build is using a DPMS lower, and will probably use a DPMS upper as they are the only ones I can find with the dust cover and forward assist are deleted. plus they have the hi rise flat top weaver rail.

possum
October 9, 2008, 09:15 PM
It shoots perfect with no problems, put almost 1,000 rounds through it and not a single issue, no feeding problem, no ejection problems, nothing.
that is great, and i am glad that it has performed well for you, try 750rds + a day for a 5 day block, and that will give you a good indication how good that ar really performs. repeat as needed. :)

Neener Neener
October 9, 2008, 09:53 PM
In the DPMS price range you should also be able to find a Daly, Stag, and possibly CMMG. While I do not think DPMS are bad rifles, I would buy one of the others first. Just my uneducated opinion...........

taliv
October 9, 2008, 10:06 PM
You can put up a chart with all kinds of features and some will shine and some will not.

It doesn't like many other charts, tell the whole story.

A better indication would be a chart based on failures vs rounds fired for each manufacture.

If you based buying a car on a chart designed like the one posted, Volvo's would be the only car that shines.

But strange how a lowly Saturn will run 100's of thousands of miles safely with little to no maintenace.

yeah, it does tell the whole story.

strange how if saturns cost the same as volvos, no one would own a saturn.

SoCalShooter
October 9, 2008, 11:02 PM
I have a DPMS AR 15 match upper and it works great shoots under 3/4 in at 100 yards.

aliveisalive
October 9, 2008, 11:19 PM
All i have to say is ive heard good things about nearly EVERY ar brand. Just because some may not take 1000k rounds / a day at a carbine course doesnt mean they are 100 percent worse. I dont know anyone [of course i dont really know any HARDCORE shooters either] that even has the cash to shoot that much in an outing.

I think the most ive shot at one time out of my saiga is 150 rounds, and that was the first time i shot it. Maybe its because i always have many guns to shoot when im out, but still on the other board i go to, most people seem to shoot only 100-200 rounds out of any one rifle per outing.

My point? Get whatever you can afford, im sure you shall enjoy it.

peck1234
October 10, 2008, 12:42 AM
Absolutely love MINE!! A1 is the way to go if you a die hard for iron sights.

Took me 7 months to get mine and let me say that it was well worth the wait!

Factory sights were wayyy off when I received it, but after sighting in; it is very accurate!

Get er DONE

P.S so far Ive put 350 rounds through it will 2 failures to extract...

Using dirty wolf ammo... a good cleaning after every session and this could be avoided.. I get lazy...

Dookie
October 10, 2008, 02:16 AM
that is great, and i am glad that it has performed well for you, try 750rds + a day for a 5 day block, and that will give you a good indication how good that ar really performs. repeat as needed. Send me the ammo, I also take personal checks.

Or I can put 500 rounds through it in about 3 hours, take it home and clean it, which is how it started life. Either way, I fail to see your point as to why I should waste my time and money on something that has worked perfect for me in the short amount of time I have used it, just to prove you right, or wrong.

The truth is, DPMS is a fine brand, no it's not as nice as a Colt or Bushmaster, however it also costs hundreds of dollars less and can do exactly the same upgrades.

Scope snobs, 1911 snobs, and AR-15 snobs, if it doesn't match their perceived "perfection" then it is garbage.

Ashaq
October 10, 2008, 02:47 AM
Seems to me a few of the people here are giving their uneducated opinion. I've had a AP4 for over a year now and put hundreds of rounds through it and haven't had a problem ever. Sure it's maybe not top of the line but if you neglect a top of the line firearm it's just going to turn into a piece of crap. I always clean mine either the same day I come back from the range or the day after and it has always shot perfectly. Mine is a carbine model with a detachable carry handle and I'm damn happy I made this purchase.

possum
October 10, 2008, 12:18 PM
Scope snobs, 1911 snobs, and AR-15 snobs, if it doesn't match their perceived "perfection" then it is garbage.
i am not a snob when it comes to guns, there are many ar makers out there that make good stuff, and there are a few that are not so good. if you don't like or appreciate my opinion that is fine, i am just sharing what i know and see. you can kid yourself all day and that is fine too.
I've had a AP4 for over a year now and put hundreds of rounds through it and haven't had a problem ever.
well i hope not. less than 1k rds in over a year time, yeah that is about average for most gun owners, as a matter of fact that is probally above average, and with that kind of use i am sure you will never have an issue.

Emfuser
October 10, 2008, 02:39 PM
This thread smells like barfcom... :barf:

innerpiece
October 10, 2008, 04:00 PM
possum, no offence but get real.. not everyone is a wannabe Spec Operator... not everybody that buys an AR style rifle feels like they should be either.. Not everybody that buys an AR is preparing for "battle" or a "fight" like yerself..
if folks dont agree with you, or yer "observations, that dosent mean they are "kidding" themselves... it merely means that they are a bit more interested in finding their own truth, rather than shooting in the dark by making decisions based off of yer opinin which we have NO idea if its experienced or not....

Im not a wannabe SFO.. but I wanted an M4style rifle.. I wanted it to be able to double as a HD/Varmint rifle. guess what, my brother-inlaw isa Navy Spec Operator, been since Y2k.. and he told me to look into DPMS.........

oh and just so you know, here in the states, (in reality) it dont take 750 rds in one day to defend yerself... nore does it often require an AR.. its usually a couple well placed shots, from a pistol...

Now Im not training for an end of the world scenario like you may be... but Im pretty shure between a couple SKS's, a DPMS carbine, couple bolt gns in a calibre that starts with .3, and a few pistols, Ill be quite safe n secure out here in the woods till I go lay in the ground...

you can still train to be a commando with a top end AR, and let folks have success with their DPMS ya know....

ip.

rc109a
October 10, 2008, 04:11 PM
I guess the question should be asked is what do you intend to do with the rifle? DPMS makes a good product and has good customer service. Charles Daly makes a good product and I have heard they have good customer service. RRA, Armalite, Colt, Stag, CMMG, Saber, and all the rest make good products. How much do you want to spend and what options are important to you?
I have shot and operated with a lot of those brands and have had good luck with all of them. Some feel better built then others. Some have better features then others, but what is it worth to you? How much are you willing to sink in a rifle that may be shot at the range? People who use an AR as a tool (life depends on it) spend a lot of money since they know their life is worth it. At one point or another I have seen something go wrong with at least one of the rifles listed above (never seen a CD fail that was a result of the gun, only magazine). Most could have been prevented, but others were just parts failing. Almost all were easily fixed and back up and running in minutes. None of those on the chart are garbage. It is a wide variety to choose from and not something that is easy to do for a first time buyer. Take your time and buy what you can afford for the job it will perform. In the end it is your choice and you will live with that decision.

innerpiece
October 10, 2008, 04:12 PM
Possum,
actually, mabey you could tell this group of soldiers that they are kidding themselves..

again, no offence..

http://www.dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=1265&postRepeater1-p=1#1597

wcwhitey
October 10, 2008, 05:21 PM
Peck and the others, glad to see a few other Long Islanders out there. Calverton is a good place to blast. I usually shoot at Islip, only open on Saturdays but a nice little 50 yard range. I shoot the Appleseed range simulator targets with my AR. Be glad to get you sighted in if you ever want to stop by. Bill

peck1234
October 10, 2008, 07:42 PM
Islip Town Rifle, Pistol and Archery Range


Hours
10 a.m.-4 p.m. Sat. year-round;
July & August, 5:30-7 p.m. Wed. and Thur.;
Sept., Oct., Nov., Sun. noon-4 p.m.;
November (hunting season) also Thurs. 11a.m.-2 p.m.

Not just Saturday : )

possum
October 10, 2008, 09:06 PM
you can still train to be a commando with a top end AR, and let folks have success with their DPMS ya know....
i train like a "commando" because the 1st time i had to fight for my life, i was forever changed and never wanted to be that unprepared again. i am an nco in the infantry it is my job to shoot move and communicate. that is what i train to do because that is what i have to do to stay alive.

oh and just so you know, here in the states, (in reality) it dont take 750 rds in one day to defend yerself... nore does it often require an AR.. its usually a couple well placed shots, from a pistol...
seems like you are fooling yourself into thinking that the pistol and a few aimed shots will solve all your problems, you need to attend some courses, do some digging, handguns are not as effective as people fool themselves into thinking that they are. caliber dosen't matter a handgun sucks, they are carried for convience and comfort and ease of carry, not because they are the best option. they are carried because that is the only option that we have for carry 9 times out of 10. Any firearms instructer or professional worth thier salt will tell you the same thing. A handgun is or well should be the means to a shotgun/rilfe. (period)

X-Rap
October 11, 2008, 02:21 AM
Possum I think you should just get an ak and forget about it:D

possum
October 11, 2008, 08:07 AM
Possum I think you should just get an ak and forget about it
yeah i got one of those too, but i am seriously thinking about getting on Jim Fullers wait list.

wcwhitey
October 11, 2008, 08:44 AM
Peck, I hope you are right. Either that is the old hours or they just re instituted them again. It got much busier after Huntington closed down and the guys there have been wanting to increase the hours. Good to hear it if that is the case. I will find out today. LOL Bill

ForneyRider
October 11, 2008, 09:48 AM
I got the DPMS Panther Bull 20 1:9 in .223. It is very accurate with the cheapy trigger. I did a lot of research over past couple of years before buying. I really liked the Rock River and Bushmaster, but they were another 200-300$. The DPMS offers JD Enterprises trigger as an upgrade.

These things are as configurable as a PC. Barrel length, profile, twist, chome-lined, coating, chromoly or stainless. And that's just the barrel.

My DPMS did need some break in. It is accurate out of the box but reliable cycling was not there. This is my first AR.

So, I pulled the top off and pulled the trigger a bunch and it works much better. I would get the 45$ trigger job(ar15.com) or an aftermarket trigger as the basic one is well, basic. However, I can get sub-MOA at 100 yards with my scope and the 50gr Federal Power Shok bulk ammo (LC brass).

My dad's Remington 700 VLS and Remington pump 22, both new, required lots of break in as well. So did my Parker Hale 1200 when I had the bolt body and cocking piece replaced.

The dealer sold it to me with the MIAD grip. Pretty good tech and the surface offers a solid grip.

I put a Badger Ordnance charging handle lever on it to make it easier with the scope. And I upgraded the bolt release to a DPMS tactical one for single shot shooting.

I may put the DPMS 4 rail gas block on there to fit a flash light/laser. Okay- my tacti-cool addition. But hey, I actually make use of the flashlight for some hunting.

DPMS is in St Cloud, don't ya know.

Pmags are great!

vanfunk
October 11, 2008, 10:19 AM
possum, no offence but get real.. not everyone is a wannabe Spec Operator... not everybody that buys an AR style rifle feels like they should be either.. Not everybody that buys an AR is preparing for "battle" or a "fight" like yerself..


Correct, not everyone is an "operator" and that's just fine. Where things get disputacious is where folks claim that their "budget" AR is "just as good" as someone else's Colt or LMT or Noveske, et alia. It is just too simple a phrase to apply to the whole spectrum of uses an AR may be called upon to deliver. For a range gun, the good news is that virtually any off-the-shelf AR will perform well in that function. Where "serious social use" is concerned however, some brands simply are built better than others, made of better parts and demonstrating better skill in assembly. In sum, a Colt 6920 is in an inherently better firearm than a DPMS AP-4. It cannot be disputed that the Colt is made better, and made of better parts. What is disputacious is whether or not the added quality (staked gas key, shot peened MPC'd bolt, 4150 CMV steel, etc., etc., etc.) is worth it to the buyer. The futher a particular rifle or carbine strays from the technical data package (TDP), the more likely there will be problems in a "hard use" environment. Just how much more likely? No one can say. Claims that "my DPMS M4 went 10,000 rounds without cleaning, in the jungles of Myanmar" cannot be disputed if, indeed, the weapon did accomplish that stunning feat. Of course, the observation has little relevance outside of simply being a neat story to tell (references like "my DPMS bolt broke after 100 rounds aren't relevant either, taken singly). Some AR manufacturers can sell weapons more inexpensively because it costs them less to manufacture them, because they aren't spending as much on materials and QA/QI/QC. Again, that's fine, if the shortcuts are not important to the consumer. If they are important, then the consumer has to define for himself how important those differences are, and what's on the line - money? life? These are questions of a personal nature and have no bearing on the intrinsic quality of a weapon.

Not all AR's are created equal by any means- some are truly better than others, and some are not so bad as they are often portrayed. If you subscribe to the Stalinist ethic that "best is the enemy of good enough" then you'll likely do very well with just about any brand. If you need the added assurance of certain features, materials, or quality of assembly, you'll have to pony up the bucks.

vanfunk

peck1234
October 11, 2008, 02:56 PM
well said vanfunk...

NavajoNPaleFace
October 11, 2008, 03:33 PM
possum.....if the DOD signed a huge contract for DPMS ARs to replace the ones the military has would you desert? :)

I guess my point is you accept what you shoot as a soldier to be the best.

But the military adaptation and use of the Berretta model 92 speaks my case.

The military has a habit of outfitting soldiers with whatever they can get the cheapest. NOT necessarily what may be the best.

Urbana John
October 11, 2008, 03:58 PM
I bought a used Colt, that wouldn't cycle until I changed the carrier, had to use "FORCE" to operate the bolt!!
I've got a custom built Sabre Defense that's had some very minor problems.
Got an Anvil Arms lower with a DPMS parts kit in it, with a custom built Anvil Arms upper--thats REALLY sweet--BUT my DPMS AP4 in 308 is my MBR----It will "rock your world"!!
I don't think DPMS service is the greatest, but I haven't had anything to complain about.
I wanted to get the RRA's 308, but they kept setting back their production date on their 308's and it was going to cost a LOT more.
"If" I could find a reason for another AR,,,it would be a DPMS for sure.

ugaarguy
October 11, 2008, 04:16 PM
if the DOD signed a huge contract for DPMS ARs to replace the ones the military has
By requirement those ARs would have to be built according to the TDP, and would therefor be substantially better than DPMS' commercial offerings. With more than 40 years in service the M16/M4 line of rifles are very mature in terms of refinement and technical data.

Heck
October 12, 2008, 09:03 PM
Is Stag still Making the S&W rifle?

ugaarguy
October 12, 2008, 09:13 PM
Is Stag still Making the S&W rifle?
Nope. S&W brought it in house pretty early on because Stag kept building them with out-of-spec receivers. The Stag built guns have Mossberg barrels, marked "5.56 Nato". The S&W built guns have T/C barrels marked "5.56 NATO".

possum
October 12, 2008, 09:17 PM
possum.....if the DOD signed a huge contract for DPMS ARs to replace the ones the military has would you desert?
if they did would you stop writing about it and join the army?

The military has a habit of outfitting soldiers with whatever they can get the cheapest. NOT necessarily what may be the best.
are you sir in the military? or have you ever been?

NavajoNPaleFace
October 12, 2008, 11:26 PM
possum, if it's any of your concern I served in the Army from '68 to '71.

I know a thing or two about government contracts on firearms. Just leave it at that.

I will not discuss this any further with you since you have ALL the answers.

Besides "our" discussions are taking away from the purpose of the thread.

ForneyRider
October 13, 2008, 09:40 AM
ya'll gonna get this thread locked.

I like the DPMS discussion, I hope we can get back on track.

IndianaBoy
October 13, 2008, 10:23 AM
A colt will likely be a better rifle than a dpms. That is not to say a mpi/shot peened bolt won't break after 100 rounds, but it is less likely to do so, statistically.

For the average shooter, a dpms will be fine. Make sure the carrier key is well staked. If you are really paranoid, buy a spare bolt.

4140 vs 4150 is a pointless argument unless you have a rdias.

Sure the colt is better.

Better still? Buy the highest quality components and assemble it yourself with strict attention to detail. Properly torque everything, stake what needs it... And then test it thoroughly. Even colt ships some lemons.

Tarvis
October 13, 2008, 04:13 PM
I have the ultimate solution: Go buy one and shoot it for 6 months, make a log book noting every time you clean or modify the rifle and every round fired, then decide based on first hand observations. Problem solved; no opinions, "facts" or misrepresentations to cloud your decision.

Happy Hunting

onebigelf
October 13, 2008, 05:49 PM
I've got a DPMS 16" Stainless bull barrel with a flattop. It's been flawless, I just wish I'd gotten a 16" CAR or midweight barrel upper instead of the bull. The bull barrel is frightfully accurate with 69gr Sierra match hollowpoints over 24gr of Varget, but I've gotten into service match shooting and I can't use it for that. I have to borrow my brother's M-4gery (also a DPMS upper). Both have been run upwards of 600rnds at a time, neither has hiccuped.

John

possum
October 13, 2008, 07:44 PM
I have the ultimate solution: Go buy one and shoot it for 6 months, make a log book noting every time you clean or modify the rifle and every round fired, then decide based on first hand observations. Problem solved; no opinions, "facts" or misrepresentations to cloud your decision.

Happy Hunting
great advice, i wish more people would take it and run with it, i agree 100%

SHvar
October 15, 2008, 01:07 AM
Ive looked at, handled, shot, maintained, compared, and carried, colt, DPMS, bushmaster, olympic arms, Remington, etc.
I can tell you from experience that if you were to rate them by quality colt ARs would be a benchmark, among the others I would rate colt as medium or average quality.
The Smith and Wesson just like all of their firearms are low to medium quality, and very overpriced. S&W products (from anyone who has ever owned them, or shot many of them) have obvious machining mistakes, faults, and in general look like a high school metal shop class machined them. This translates to accuracy loss in the end.
Bushmaster are of obvious better quality than either of the 2 listed above, it takes a simple look at them, and to compare how the parts fit, function, and the general finish of the protective coating.
DPMS are good quality, I personally chose them after comparing the others in person. The first thing you notice is the finish of the protective coating it is better. Next when field stripping them, the DPMS parts fit better than colt and some of the others, tighter, better tolerances, and less movement between the upper and lower reciever.
Firing the DPMS, it has not jammed or had one malfunction with thousands of rounds through it (but then again ARs in general are alot more reliable and durable than they are given credit for, the claims of a few malfunctions always get blown out of proportion by people who have never even seen one yet claim alot of crap about them).
Ive seen DPMS firearms that were in military service (yes they supplied M-16s in quanities just like some of the others), the finish and coating seems to hold up longer, they seem to feel new and shoot like new longer than colt.
Its personal choice which brand you pick, all are more than good enough for the average person to own, shoot, and depend on. And dont listen to those who will tell you that price is everything. Compare them first hand for yourself. My DPMS is far more accurate than any AR from any other manufacturer Ive ever compared, but then again accuracy is what they are famous for.
Accuracy comes from a combination of closer tolerances, higher quality, better fit and finish, the parts matching better.
About colt ARs and M-16s, that nifty product called an accuwedge, it was created to get rid of the slop between a colt ar-15 upper and lower reciever and make it more accurate for match shooting, also for those who mix and match upper and lowers that are not matching so well.
Olympic arms are alot better quality than some people give them credit for, in fact most claims about them are from one complaint, from one person. The other people who cry about them have probably never even seen one, let alone shot one.
Its your choice, look them over in shops, strip them apart, compare fit and finish, function of parts, how they work together, and how smooth they operate, if you get the chance shoot a few of each.
Firing thousands of rounds a day without cleaning them is a decent test, but very few people will ever do that. Personally Ive done that with a few manufacturers. Colt and DPMS, Ive seen durability tests done on DPMS with 1,000-10,000 rounds fired non-stop through them, the weapon never once hesitated, this is not a true test of high quality, but a standard of what they should be able to endure, I dont think I would try that with Smith and Wesson, my personal experience with many of their weapons shows low quality and way overpriced.
Colt simply put their prices up years ago to make people think that their rifles are better in comparison. Also they have an incestuous relationship with the DOD, and unfortunately it keeps them going with endless contracts. Not complaining about their weapons, but Id definitely say that the M-16A2 was far better in quality than the M-16A1, the A1 was made here in the US, the A2 was made by Fabrique National in Belgium, this prevented M-16 parts from being more frequently distribuited without the proper permits, also took advantage of the quality control offered by FN, which colt has owned for many years.

ugaarguy
October 15, 2008, 01:51 AM
Ive seen DPMS firearms that were in military service (yes they supplied M-16s in quanities just like some of the others),
If they were in Military service, they built according to the TDP. DPMS Commercial offerings don't come close to being built to the TDP.
I can tell you from experience that if you were to rate them by quality colt ARs would be a benchmark, among the others I would rate colt as medium or average quality.
I've owned Colt and consider them amongst the best.
The Smith and Wesson just like all of their firearms are low to medium quality, and very overpriced. S&W products (from anyone who has ever owned them, or shot many of them) have obvious machining mistakes, faults, and in general look like a high school metal shop class machined them. This translates to accuracy loss in the end.
Did you examine an early, and problematic, Stag built M&P 15; or a later M&P 15 built in house? What other "low to medium quality" S&Ws have you owned?
Ive seen durability tests done on DPMS with 1,000-10,000 rounds fired non-stop through them, the weapon never once hesitated, this is not a true test of high quality, but a standard of what they should be able to endure,
Non stop you say? Bartholomew Roberts has posted about what happens when an M4 is fired truly non stop. Barrels tend to overheat and experience catastrophic failure at or shortly after 4,000 rounds IIRC. What, pray tell, wonder steel was this 10K round non stop firing DPMS barrel made from?
I dont think I would try that with Smith and Wesson, my personal experience with many of their weapons shows low quality and way overpriced.Again, please elaborate.
Colt simply put their prices up years ago to make people think that their rifles are better in comparison.
All top tier ARs cost more. MPI & HPT on bolts & barrels cost money. Properly staking critical parts requires more time on the assembly line, therefor higher production cost.
Also they have an incestuous relationship with the DOD, and unfortunately it keeps them going with endless contracts.
Colt currently makes only the M4. All other M16s are made by FN. Also, Colt's sole source contract for the M4 ends next year.
Not complaining about their weapons, but Id definitely say that the M-16A2 was far better in quality than the M-16A1, the A1 was made here in the US, the A2 was made by Fabrique National in Belgium,
You've proven your lack of knowledge. FN does not make the M16A2/A3/A4 in Belgium. They're made in the US, at FNMI. What does FNMI stand for? Where in the US is it located?
this prevented M-16 parts from being more frequently distribuited without the proper permits, also took advantage of the quality control offered by FN, which colt has owned for many years.
Colt does not own FN. FN does, however, own Browning and USRAC (the company who owns the tooling & has the license to build Winchester firearms).

Welcome to the forum, but please get your facts straight before you post.

Art Eatman
October 15, 2008, 09:34 AM
I had gunshow tables for some twenty-five years. Handled a sizable number of S&Ws during that time. Even kept a half-dozen or so around from time to time, as shooters. My experience is just the opposite from the claims of SHvar. Excellent fit, finish, triggers, sights...

chbrow10
October 15, 2008, 09:40 AM
Here's why I'd buy a DPMS: I just returned from the MGM Targets-USAMU Junior camp in Fort Benning. DPMS was a sponsor, and brought 4 or 6 AR-15s for everyone to shoot. The rifles were great, the representative was more knowledgable than I on the products. But the real reason is that someone from DPMS talked Remington Arms into donating 50,000 rounds of ammo to the camp. Every junior shooter who wanted to shoot free ammo got to. I will buy from people who directly support this sport. DPMS and Remington Arms literally put thier money where their mouth is and ponied up for the kids.

That's why I'd buy a DPMS.

possum
October 15, 2008, 11:53 AM
Here's why I'd buy a DPMS: I just returned from the MGM Targets-USAMU Junior camp in Fort Benning. DPMS was a sponsor, and brought 4 or 6 AR-15s for everyone to shoot. The rifles were great, the representative was more knowledgable than I on the products. But the real reason is that someone from DPMS talked Remington Arms into donating 50,000 rounds of ammo to the camp. Every junior shooter who wanted to shoot free ammo got to. I will buy from people who directly support this sport. DPMS and Remington Arms literally put thier money where their mouth is and ponied up for the kids.
that is awesome, and a great thing to see. thanks for sharing.

innerpiece
October 16, 2008, 08:27 PM
I got a DPMS Sportical today, even tho possum wouldnt like it, I do.. ;) but thats because its mine.. Id expect him to like his more too, as he quite obviously does.

I think whats most important is that folks buy what they need for their specific application.. like I said before, not everyone is a commando, soldier, or LEO...

If I was over in the sand like my brother in law, whos been there on n off for 8 years, I might choose a different tool for that job... but Im not there...

nor is much of this topic....

but I know I am glad to have this DPMS so far, and if it functions well, and I become proficient with it, Im gonna rep the hell out of it!

ip :)

possum
October 16, 2008, 08:32 PM
I got a DPMS Sportical today,
congrats on the ar, and your above post i agree with 100%. please keep us informed with text and pics, it would be greatly appreciated.

taliv
October 16, 2008, 08:44 PM
that is awesome, and a great thing to see. thanks for sharing.

+1

while their M4-style offering isn't in the same league as Colt's, in my experience, they make excellent rifles for CMP/NRA HP and they support the community, RKBA, etc. And their stuff is reasonably priced. I'm glad they're in business.

innerpiece
October 16, 2008, 08:45 PM
right on, thanks, will do.
wanna start tonight, but gotta let the kids sleep..lol

Ill have some pics up tomorrow.

laters, ip.

230RN
October 16, 2008, 09:24 PM
I got an AR-15 for the simple reason that I didn't know anything about them and wanted to learn.

I poked around a little and lo! a DPMS Panther fell into my lap.

Fired fifteen rounds through it without a hiccup.

I'm happy.

I wish you guys would quit bickering and puffing about relative experiences, etc, when you are approaching the subject from completely different angles.

I fired fifteen rounds through mine.

I'm happy.

taliv
October 16, 2008, 09:29 PM
I fired fifteen rounds through mine.

heh, did you call Crane yet? :)

possum
October 16, 2008, 09:34 PM
I got an AR-15 for the simple reason that I didn't know anything about them and wanted to learn.

I poked around a little and lo! a DPMS Panther fell into my lap.

Fired fifteen rounds through it without a hiccup.

I'm happy.

I wish you guys would quit bickering and puffing about relative experiences, etc, when you are approaching the subject from completely different angles.

I fired fifteen rounds through mine.

I'm happy.
wow did you learn a lot in that 15rds, did you accomplish anything with that 15rds? why 15 that is such an odd number!



Ill have some pics up tomorrow.
awesome, can't wait

innerpiece
October 17, 2008, 01:54 AM
230RN's post is one of the two:

- the most snide, snobbish, passive/aggressive comments, just to stir it up a bit;)

or

- a wonderful display of ignorance that simpily CANT reflect on any one but that person....

pretty shure with over two thousand posts, in only 2 years, it wouldnt be the latter.... riiight?!..... riiiiiight..

eitherway, carries no relevance, and is butt a mere fart in the wind. and some folks like to add nothing but poop to conversations...

ip.

SHvar
October 17, 2008, 02:26 AM
I own a S&W handgun that has been around for years, its obvious that S&W made it, just as I described above, bad quality, obvious lousey machining mistakes, of which some I corrected myself.
Ive been in law enforcement for years now, and the army many years ago, S&W handguns compared to some other manufacturers are cheap, and not very well made, with obvious mistakes on many of them.
So I guess Ill be called a liar next.
Ive looked at new S&W ARs a few times, all looked average quality compared to the other companies I mentioned.
After years experience with their other products I sure wounldnt spend hundreds extra on one of their ARs.
The choice is yours what you want to buy, but my knowledge on this subject comes from actual experience with colt, bushmaster, FN, dpms, etc etc.
The DPMS that was tested with 10,000 rds was a 20 inch barrel, not a carbine, but Ive seen DPMS carbines fire 1000 rds with only a break long enough to change magazines. And multiple times thousands of rds fired a day.
Ive personally fired 1000-4000 plus rds a day through colt with no problems, just not as well made as the other 2.
Anyone who has picked them up, looked at them, field stripped them, and fired them knows what Im talking about. Bushmaster, DPMS, are a bit better quality than a colt. Believe me the colt Ar-15 is good quality, I have no complaints about them, but not as good as the DPMS or Bushmaster.
By the way if you go to almost any manufacturer of ARs, you can get milspec, basic models, and models equipped far beyond milspec.
By comparing anything made by DPMS I see models equipped the same, and produced the same as colt or bushmaster, but an average lower price.
Take similarly equipped models from each company, compare them, you will see what I mean.
By the way why is it that in over 20 years Ive never seen one AR-15/M-16 made by any of the manufacturers experience a catastrophic failure? Maybe the people I know, work with, and have worked with maintain their weapons, because they rely upon them, risking their lives every day. I can count the total number of rounds that jammed in those years on one hand, the mistake was always a faulty round, a bad magazine, or a mistake by the shooter.
The best way to make your mind up is for your own reasons, but compare all of them in person as I did before you make up your mind. Dont go by rumors, or what sounded good to someone on paper, or on their computer screen.
Ive been fortunate to have 20 years plus experience with several AR-15/M-16s to make my mind up, along with many thousands of 5.56x45 and .223 rds to make use of, along with other rifles such as the mini-14 (no comparison, a different type of rifle, and nowhere near as accurate as any AR).
Ill stick with my DPMS. If I feel like buying another AR some day it will probably be another DPMS also, unless maybe H&K makes a semiauto 416 available here.
Quality translates to accuracy, try it for yourself.

innerpiece
October 17, 2008, 02:40 AM
does that mean you like DPMS? ;)

Beren
October 17, 2008, 02:53 AM
A local SOT has only good things to say about DPMS. They lack some of the technical features that Colt and others have in terms of barrel steel, testing, etc, but if those features aren't critical to your intended use, then why worry?

You might also check what used DPMS rifles are fetching. If you do want to sell or upgrade some day, some rifles will hold their value better than others.

Have you considered buying a stripped AR lower receiver, building it out, and then slapping a DPMS or LMT upper on it?

ugaarguy
October 17, 2008, 03:20 AM
Bushmaster, DPMS, are a bit better quality than a colt. Believe me the colt Ar-15 is good quality, I have no complaints about them, but not as good as the DPMS or Bushmaster.
Then why does Bushmaster only do batch MPI on their barrels and no HPT? Why does Bushmaster not offer any AR with HPI & MPT bolt? Why does DPMS not do any of that? Do you even know what MPI & HPT are? If you think DPMS and Bushmaster are building better quality rifles than Colt you're fooling yourself. Why is a hard chromed barrel an additional charge with DPMS, but standard on Bushmaster, Colt, Daly, LMT, and others? Why are the reports on the web of DPMS rifles with barrels marked 5.56, but reamed with .223 chambers? I've also seen that personally at work. I've also seen Bushmaster ship rifles that have undersized .223 chambers. You just don't get these issues with Colt, S&W, and higher end brands because they have better quality control.
I own a S&W handgun that has been around for years, its obvious that S&W made it, just as I described above, bad quality, obvious lousey machining mistakes, of which some I corrected myself.
Wanna name the specific problems and the model?
Ive been in law enforcement for years now, and the army many years ago, S&W handguns compared to some other manufacturers are cheap, and not very well made, with obvious mistakes on many of them.
I've not seen that with S&W handguns, but hey what do I know; I only work for one their largest dealers and handle hundreds of them every year. Taurus handguns I've definitely seen QC issues with out of the box.
Ive looked at new S&W ARs a few times, all looked average quality compared to the other companies I mentioned.
After years experience with their other products I sure wounldnt spend hundreds extra on one of their ARs.
First, they aren't hundreds more than DPMS or Bushmaster. They're about $175 more than a DPMS, and equal in price to a Bushmaster. For that extra money you get a MPI & HPT bolt, and a hard chromed barrel. DPMS offers neither as standard, and Bushmaster only the hard chromed barrel as standard. A new HPI & MPT bolt in a complete carrier that been properly staked (something else DPMS never does, and Bushmaster often doesn't do) is $130 from BCM or LMT. So you actually get more for the money with S&W over Bushmaster. By the time you add a quality BCG to a DPMS you've cut the price difference to a negligible amount, and DPMS doesn't even offer a hard chromed barrel on commercial guns. We haven't even gotten into other things like an F height front site base, or M4 feed ramps.
By the way if you go to almost any manufacturer of ARs, you can get milspec, basic models, and models equipped far beyond milspec.
Actually very few companies make semi-auto AR-15s that are otherwise truly Mil Spec. The closest thing I can think of would be a Colt upper on a LMT complete lower.
By comparing anything made by DPMS I see models equipped the same, and produced the same as colt or bushmaster, but an average lower price.

How are you seeing this? DPMS doesn't make a single rifle equipped the anywhere near the same as Colt. Did you just overlook the hard chromed MPI barrels (they're marked as such too) on the Colts? Did you not know to look for the MPI markings on the bolts?

Now one last thing
Before I'm accused of being an AR snob, I do own an Olympic Plinker Plus 20" AR-15. It's a perfectly functional rifle, and it works great as a range and fun gun. However, the build quality is not in the same league as my LMT Defender 2000, the Colt SP1 I traded toward the LMT, nor the CD DM4LE I recently purchased.

As I've said, I work for a pretty large dealer. From what I've seen any major brand AR-15 will work fine for casual users. However, that does not make all AR-15s equal. There are build quality differences. This is where the end user needs to educate himself or herself about what these higher end features do, and decide if they're worth the extra cost for his or her intended use of the rifle.

Edit to add: If those higher end features don't make a difference in your intended use, then by all means buy a DPMS or Olympic. Put the saved money into ammo, or toward a handgun or shotgun to go with your AR.

vanfunk
October 17, 2008, 09:34 AM
Anyone who has picked them up, looked at them, field stripped them, and fired them knows what Im talking about.

No, I'm afraid some of us don't know quite what you are talking about, and some of do have extensive experience with the brands you mention. You place great emphasis on "fit and finish" - can you elaborate on what the phrase means to you? In your previous post you mentioned that an accu-wedge improves accuracy in AR-15s, and I think that comment has left a few of us scratching our heads and wondering if you really know how an AR-15 works.

Bushmaster, DPMS, are a bit better quality than a colt.

Again, please elaborate if possible, with specific reference to the TDP, material specifications, QA/QI processes, and other objective criteria.

By comparing anything made by DPMS I see models equipped the same, and produced the same as colt or bushmaster, but an average lower price.
Take similarly equipped models from each company, compare them, you will see what I mean.

Exactly, when an objective analysis is applied, many substantive differences appear, and they don't favor DPMS or Bushmaster. "Similarly equipped" doesn't mean "identical" when it comes to the quality of the materials used.

The best way to make your mind up is for your own reasons, but compare all of them in person as I did before you make up your mind. Dont go by rumors, or what sounded good to someone on paper, or on their computer screen.

I concur with this sentiment exactly, though I would add that it is important to look at the "numbers" on paper - many of them relate very directly to the quality of the weapons in consideration.

vanfunk

hags
October 17, 2008, 10:10 AM
Did someone post that Bushmaster and DPMS are better quality than Colt?

After reading that I have discounted this entire thread. I'm not a Kool Aid drinker but I wouldn't even put Colt and DPMS in the same sentence when talking about quality.

Try Stag/CMT or LMT.

230RN
October 17, 2008, 12:18 PM
My remarks were either...

- the most snide, snobbish, passive/aggressive comments, just to stir it up a bit

or

- a wonderful display Of ignorance that simpily CANT reflect on any one but that person....

The former is correct, except that it was meant to be aggressive, and was not to stir things up, but to make a point.

And I would substitute "sarcastic" for snide/snobbish --though there's not much difference between the two concepts.

My point was that people argue interminably and passionately over some things when they are actually arguing from different viewpoints. I'm sorry to have to say that again.

I have always found that taking variables to their extremes reveals a lot about a problem. Sometimes from -1 to +1, sometimes from -infinity to + infinity. And sometimes from "5000" rounds per year to 15 rounds in a twenty minute session.

What did I learn?

That at my 25 yard range, the front sight cannot be adjusted properly to obtain 1 inch below point of aim. It is too low. I found, further, that the front sight mounted on this 16" carbine is probably for a 20" rifle. I found out that higher posts are available to cure this problem.

But I also found out (later) that I could remove the front sight detent plunger and put a strong spring under the front sight post so that I could raise it appropriately to match the barrel length without it wobbling around --a quite satisfactory temporary fix.

I found out that the recoil on this machine is negligible.

I found out that the collapsible stock on it was too short for me, since I picked up the right protective wing "instinctively," and that I'd probably have to put a pad on the buttstock if I were shooting it without a coat. I shall test that theory shortly.

I figured out how to bugger up the rear sight so that it will move smoothly and precisely up and down, but I haven't implemented those improvements yet.

I found out that the trigger sucks, but I'm used to crappy triggers on milsurps.

I found out how to strip it, how to not let the upper hinge down on my finger, that the mag release is on the wrong side (for my bum index finger only), but that putting the mag release and bolt release all on one side would be a bad idea.

That's why I got my AR-15. To learn something about that which I knew nothing before.

Fifteen rounds out of a DPMS Panther taught me a lot. Which was why I got it.

Ahhhh, now for the crappy trigger problem.

I'm happy.

taliv
October 17, 2008, 12:24 PM
i thought you were joking

possum
October 17, 2008, 12:49 PM
I found out that the trigger sucks, but I'm used to crappy triggers on milsurps
put some more rounds through it, it will get better.

230RN
October 17, 2008, 02:11 PM
^ I expect so, but that's only one aspect of the potential problem-solving process with the trigger. It's not all that bad anyhow. I'll do some dry firing with it and we'll see if it de-grates and gets a little crisper.

But I do want to learn how the trigger is put together. I understand it's essentially the same as a Garand, but it's been more than 40 years since I mucked with an M1, so I'll have to look at it with my own two baby-blue eyeballs to see what pushes what and when.

Oh. Why only 15 rounds? Because I'm a good shot, have regulated the sights on scores of new rifles, and I only needed three groups to ascertain and diagnose the problem.

Izzat snide enough for everybody? ;)

possum
October 17, 2008, 04:38 PM
Why only 15 rounds? Because I'm a good shot, have regulated the sights on scores of new rifles, and I only needed three groups to ascertain and diagnose the problem.

do what you do!

SHvar
October 21, 2008, 02:24 AM
Which stocks S&W, DPMS, Bushmaster, Remington, and a few other brands, including one model Im very skeptical of, a Vulcan made of plastic, hmmm?
Anyways, the S&W ARs I looked at there were very well equipped, and the prices dropped a bit recently. These 4 rifles were noticeably better than the last 8 I looked at, in fact other than the shinier finish, I didnt realize they were S&W at first. So comparing multiple models in multiple gunshops I would say look closely before purchasing one. These 4 impressed me alot compared to the others. The coating doesnt seem as good as some of the other manufacturers, but if you like it to be a bit shiny, then buy a S&W.
By stripping down all ARs on the shelf (and comparing specs from the parerwork) I can tell you that the prices ranged from $724 to $1137, they were all equipped with chome lined barrels, similar or identical internal parts, but various models ranged from 16-22 inch barrels, various sights, and even some had included holographic sights, tactical 4 rail grips, etc.
If S&W continues to produce models like those 4 they will impress me. Maybe they decided to take a closer look at their quality in more recent history, many of their past made firearms were not very good quality.
I still like the protective coatings on DPMS, bushmaster, and the quality of the finish in comparison. I also like the tightness between the upper and lower recievers on DPMS. Im sorry, but when parts fit together with closer and better tolerances, they operate more accurately, something DPMS is famous for, accuracy. Shooting is believing.
I have no problem with anyones choice of which AR they want, or have. But sometimes the quality is or isnt there.
Personally, my DPMS has been one of the most reliable, and best made firearms purchases I have ever made.

Tarvis
October 21, 2008, 11:30 AM
I found out that the trigger sucks
For a cheap $10 fix, get a JP trigger spring kit with the yellow trigger spring and the copper-colored hammer spring, this will get you down to 6 or so from 9 pounds, maybe less. Using both yellow springs produces a lighter trigger pull, but also produces 1-5 light strikes per 100-200 rounds fired.

If you go the replacement route, there are a plethora of choices. The only replacement trigger I have fired is the JP adjustable, which was superb and cost effective at $120, where many aftermarket AR triggers are $200 or more, with a few being less. I hear RRA makes a good 2 stage trigger, but I haven't shot one myself.

The problem with the AR trigger system is it cams the hammer before it releases it. You could do a little grinding here and there to fix it, but I hope you know how to hard-surface parts. Once you cut through the thin hard surface, you get a few hundred trigger pulls, then it turns to mush as the steel is deformed.

RockyMtnTactical
October 21, 2008, 01:10 PM
DPMS is ok. You can do better though.

tyler500e
October 21, 2008, 01:59 PM
I'm happy with my DPMS with A3 removeable sights

browningguy
October 21, 2008, 09:19 PM
DPMS is a fine brand, I shoot mine in 3 gun with absolutely no problems. And by the way mine has a properly staked gas key if anyone cares.

The last three gun was 5 man teams and all five used my AR since it was the most accurate of the bunch. We ran around 100 rounds each through it in 4 hours and had zero problems.

Now I don't do training courses like a bunch of people apparantly do, my training was provided free (actually they paid me) by Uncle Sam. And I don't worry about my AR being battle ready as I'm not expecting Taliban paratroopers any time soon. I value accuracy, with reliability, and you'll get that with a DPMS. My completely stock DPMS 16" bull barrel upper has several (4-5) thousand rounds through it, the only FTF I've had was due to a bad magazine, no other failures of any kind. I shoot lots of Black Hills in 55-69 gr. loads though it, and quite a lot of the cheap Remington 45 and 50 gr. JHP's.

possum
October 21, 2008, 09:27 PM
Now I don't do training courses like a bunch of people apparantly do, my training was provided free (actually they paid me) by Uncle Sam.
if you were in the big army what uncle sam gives you is not what i would call "training" in any form or fashion and it is worth what it cost.

A square 10
October 21, 2008, 10:26 PM
these threads always entertain me - those who have a favorite just do - if you have had a bad experience so be it , but i guarantee you , you can have a bad day with any rifle so dont be quite so quick to judge ,

i have 4 right now , 2 DPMS upper/lower combos - not one problem ever , 2 DPMS lower / 1 colt M16 upper and 1 dedicated 22cal upper , not one problem with eather ,

ive also built 2 for my son - hes not had any problems with his eather ,

im looking at buying a DPMS 308LR real soon - i expect no problems , thankfully the factory is just down the road so i know i can get service ,
but - thats not the only reason i believe in these , i know there are a lot of these in LE hands that are getting good reveiws , good service , and performing every bit as well as any other ,

pay for whatever name you want - but a proper build , properly maintainted , and opperated with proper ammo will perform up to your expectations and beyond ,

of coarse a nice trigger and sights make it better

SHvar
October 22, 2008, 12:27 AM
Unless your a REMF
They continue to learn, and refine their skills throughout their career.
Uncle sam is still providing the training, but not under his typical classes or standards when a real soldier trains in the field. Combat is a test, and a learning experience in itself.
Ive known many LE, and individuals who have taken advanced courses with DPMS, Olympic arms, without a single sign of wear, a single mishap, a single malfunction, and continue to use those rifles today, many many thousand rounds later.
I notice that the individuals who have actual experience first hand with DPMS rifles have never had a single problem with them, they rave about their accuracy, the quality, the finish, and many of them buy more DPMS after the first purchase because they like them so much.
They are all equipped with all of the goodies the expensive brands have (the extra tough parts, chrome lined barrels, forged upper and lower recievers, etc etc), dont ask me where anyone gets the old wives tales about them not being equipped this way, and for standard prices.
In fact I questioned a long time DPMS dealer who cannot find one instance of a single DPMS not being equipped with all of the tougher features standard on the more expensive brands, or without properly staked gas keys.
By reading the responces recently Im not the only one experiencing this.

ugaarguy
October 22, 2008, 12:52 AM
They are all equipped with all of the goodies the expensive brands have (the extra tough parts, chrome lined barrels, forged upper and lower recievers, etc etc), dont ask me where anyone gets the old wives tales about them not being equipped this way, and for standard prices.
In fact I questioned a long time DPMS dealer who cannot find one instance of a single DPMS not being equipped with all of the tougher features standard on the more expensive brands, or without properly staked gas keys.
No, DPMS does not equip their commercial rifles in such a manner. The forged uppers & lowers are the only thing that's accurate in what you list. A 4140 chromemoly steel is not the same thing as a 4150 steel barrel with hard chromed bore & chamber. I've owned a DPMS carbine, and I was happy to sell it. DPMS uses crappy parts, and their fit & finish is average at best. They don't come anywhere close to Colt, LMT, and others. I wish I'd taken detailed pictures of the DPMS while I had it. I still have an Olympic because I got into it for the right price, and it's strictly a range gun.

DPMS makes a fine AR-15 for range and casual use. They are not in the same league as Colt, LMT, Charles Daly, S&W, and Sabre, (and Noveske from what I've heard - I've actually thoroughly inspected all the others, and shot half of them) when it comes to defensive carbines. SHvar, I'm glad you're happy with your DPMS, but representing it as a serious defensive carbine when it's not is a disservice to those coming here looking for accurate information.

Let me say that again - DPMS and Olympic make excellent range & casual use AR-15s. In fact, if I wanted to buy a rifle for DCM Service Rifle matches I'd probably get an Olympic SM-1 or SM-1P. Olympic makes some great non-chromed heavy barrels that are consistently very accurate. That's yet another reason I've kept my Plinker Plus 20" model.

possum
October 22, 2008, 07:49 PM
Unless your a REMF
nope, i am an infantry squad leader.

JWarren
October 22, 2008, 08:22 PM
possum wrote:

nope, i am an infantry squad leader.


Amateur.

Come back when you are a Jr. High English Teacher AND a Football Coach. :neener:


-- John

possum
October 22, 2008, 08:25 PM
Amateur.

Come back when you are a Jr. High English Teacher AND a Football Coach.


-- John

tell you the truth i can't wait to be out, i think i am gonna try to go to work for the postal service, let my time carry over.

JWarren
October 22, 2008, 08:28 PM
tell you the truth i can't wait to be out, i think i am gonna try to go to work for the postal service, let my time carry over.


Not a bad move. My mother did 30 years and retired from USPS. The retirement is GREAT.

-- John

possum
October 22, 2008, 08:31 PM
Not a bad move. My mother did 30 years and retired from USPS. The retirement is GREAT.

-- John
i bet so! man i can't wait to retire, is that bad of me? i am only 23!

JWarren
October 22, 2008, 08:34 PM
i bet so! man i can't wait to retire, is that bad of me? i am only 23!


You'll be set. You'll still be young when you get to retire AGAIN.


EDIT:

And a .gov job isn't a bad thing to have in this economic environment. I left a 16 year career as a stockbroker to go .gov. I am glad I got ahead of this latest issue. Layoffs suck. I learned that in the .com bubble pop.

-- John

Waldo Pepper
October 22, 2008, 11:30 PM
25+ years, 3 wars, all continent's except Antarctica.

Used M-1, BAR, M-14, M-16, M-60, 30 & 50 MG's and various hand guns. I live in the US and normally only fear a bugler or stray dog, not invading armies, so I don't own a full AR in 5.56 caliber and 5 or 6 thousand rounds of ammo. Sorry but that is for the far right paranoid as far as I am concerned, but that is ok its a free country.

I often hear someone on these and other types of forums talking about the money and getting out after fist or second enlistment, and I have one thing to say. It is not about money, but duty honor and country.

What do I have for HD is a Mossy 500 20 gage, FNH 5n7 with one 30 and two 20 round magazines and a AR-57 upper that uses the P90 magazine on a DPMS lower. I can hit a man at 100 yards with either, but I am not going to war with the guns at 63 either. If an army comes over the hill I will just wave and throw flowers or hide in my bed as required.

Its bed time, good night kids. :neener:

ugaarguy
October 23, 2008, 12:16 AM
I live in the US and normally only fear a bugler or stray dog, not invading armies, so I don't own a full AR in 5.56 caliber and 5 or 6 thousand rounds of ammo. Sorry but that is for the far right paranoid as far as I am concerned, but that is ok its a free country.
Yet
What do I have for HD is a Mossy 500 20 gage, FNH 5n7 with one 30 and two 20 round magazines and a AR-57 upper that uses the P90 magazine on a DPMS lower.
:confused:

Why keep an AR-57 around? An AR-15 in 5.56 NATO will do the same job as an AR-15 in 5.7x28, and do it better. It'll also do it with cheaper and more readily available ammo and magazines. Why use a handgun round in a rifle? ;)

Also, many of us younger guys cut our teeth on the black rifle. An AR-15 was my first centerfire rifle, and the USAF followed up by training me on the M-16 (even though I was a REMF). I have more experience shooting AR-15s than any other firearm, and I shoot them better than I shoot any other long gun. It's completely practical for me to use that training and experience to my advantage and use an AR-15 for my HD long gun. I suspect that many others here in their 20s and 30s have AR-15s because of similar background with the rifle. It has nothing to do with paranoia and everything to do with practicality.

russcoh
October 23, 2008, 12:55 AM
My only objection to DPMS- no cromoly lined barrels...

ugaarguy
October 23, 2008, 02:24 AM
My only objection to DPMS- no cromoly lined barrels...
I'm beginning to see where some of the confusion is. Cromoly or Chromoly is an abbreviation for Chrome Molybdenum. This simply refers to using chrome and molybdenum in the steel alloy. Barrels are not chromoly lined; rather, they are lined with a layer of hard chrome.

Girodin
October 23, 2008, 03:50 AM
It'll also do it with cheaper and more readily available ammo and magazines. Why use a handgun round in a rifle?

You're right about the mags but these days 5.7 ammo can be had cheaper than many types of 5. The 5.7 upper really would only appeal to me in I had a full auto lower, then it would be sweet, especially and SBR with supressor. I just need a spare 20K.

ugaarguy
October 23, 2008, 04:25 AM
The 5.7 upper really would only appeal to me in I had a full auto lower, then it would be sweet, especially and SBR with supressor. I just need a spare 20K.
I'm totally with you on that. In fact I mentioned that to a customer the other day when he asked about the AR 57 upper we have at the shop. I told him that on a registered lower one could finally have the full auto utility of a P90 in a civilian legal rifle.

taliv
October 23, 2008, 08:42 AM
the full auto utility of a P90 in a civilian legal rifle.

not quite, when you consider the overall lengths of the p90 vs ar57

rem2429
October 24, 2008, 12:00 AM
Bought a Rock River and won a DPMS AP4. The RRA gun is more reliable and feels more solid to me. DPMS is decent only failed a couple of times - that is a couple more than the RRA, and accuracy is very good. It would not be my first choice, but if it would not be my last either. With a few select parts, I thin the DPMS will be good to go. Hard to beat a free AR.

Ravenslair
October 24, 2008, 02:20 AM
I agree with Art when it comes to the S&W. I have an M&P15T and it shoots great. Never a hiccup in several thousand rounds, and it has been run hard. The fit and finish is as good as my Colt. Maybe those that have poopoo'd the S&W's were looking at one of the very early models.

againstthagrane
October 24, 2008, 06:45 AM
my dpms has a better staked gas key than pictures of i've seen of colt keys

ParaElite
October 24, 2008, 01:19 PM
For my M4orgery, I got an LMT but the DPMS platform in .308 is excellent value for the money.

nuffsaid
October 24, 2008, 04:50 PM
I purchased a DPMS Panther light and it jammed frequently and even had a few FTF's. Other brands are better. Plus, I dont like the adjustment knob for the rear sight on the Panther light.

Bowfishrp
October 24, 2008, 09:02 PM
I have the DPMS LR308 AP4 (thats a DPMS AR10) and it is an excellent rifle. The only issue I had with it was the gas block was not crimped enough and worked loose. I fixed that and it shoots VERY well. I would get AR15 by DPMS any day.

Timradcliffe345
October 24, 2008, 09:40 PM
Bushmaster, DPMS, are a bit better quality than a colt. Believe me the colt Ar-15 is good quality, I have no complaints about them, but not as good as the DPMS or Bushmaster.

Are you kidding me??? That is a boatload of cr@p!! I can't believe the ignorance of some people. DPMS and Bushmaster are at the bottom of the barrel as far as I am concerned. I just wish people would stop spreading the bs around. Some newcomers to the AR system don't need to hear that kinda cr@p - enough is enough.

ForneyRider
October 25, 2008, 02:36 AM
I forgot to mention that I broke the bolt catch on my DPMS dry firing before shooting the gun.
It snapped in 2.
I replaced it with the DPMS tactical bolt catch. And it has been flawless.

I've shot a few Bushmasters at the range. They were a big hit this year. But biggest complaint about them was the accuracy of the barrel. But these were the low end model, not the varmint.

NC-Mike
October 25, 2008, 08:21 PM
Are you kidding me??? That is a boatload of cr@p!! I can't believe the ignorance of some people. DPMS and Bushmaster are at the bottom of the barrel as far as I am concerned. I just wish people would stop spreading the bs around. Some newcomers to the AR system don't need to hear that kinda cr@p - enough is enough.


Since when is Bushmaster at the bottom of the barrel? :eek:

Or DPMS for that matter... :rolleyes:

jinksnyou
March 5, 2009, 09:46 AM
Quote:Why only 15 rounds? Because I'm a good shot, have regulated the sights on scores of new rifles, and I only needed three groups to ascertain and diagnose the problem.


Nope! wrong answer. Only One Box of 20 rds. You never shoot all of your ammo. You never want an empty gun you might need it.:neener:

messerist
March 5, 2009, 11:12 AM
Last February I bought a S&WMP15. My two brothers also own ARs. One has a DPMS and the other a S&W and three RRA. We shoot together at our local range and occasionally use each other's ARs. For what it worth, two of us have over 50 years combined service with the U.S. Army. We have both done combat tours and my brother is "again" heading overseas to Afghanistan. How do we feel the rifles compare and contrast? Apart from the triggers(the RRA two-stage is exceptional) the ARs perform very well. They digest a various diet of hand loads and factory ammo with equal gusto. I never had a complaint with a properly cared for firearm while in the service from the M16A1 to the M240. My biggest beef was with a TOW missile that snapped its guidance wires and headed to parts unknown.

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