Pointed Bullets in a Lever gun....


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HB
October 5, 2008, 11:35 PM
For so long it has been said that pointed bullets in a tube magazine can cause some big problems, but is there any cases of a round going off because of the primer being popped by the bullet behind it?
It seems highly unlikely that a lead tipped bullet could set off a primer just by the force of recoil, or even a fall from a treestand :uhoh: Lead is a very soft metal and it would seem that the lead would deform before around could be fired....

Anybody want to make some dummy rounds (NO POWDER) with a live primer, put them in a small diameter pipe and drop them out a window :D

I just have a hard time believing that the above situation could occur. That being said, I have no reason to more than 2 pointed rounds while hunting, one in the mag and one in the pipe

HB

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sargenv
October 5, 2008, 11:44 PM
Ok, say that the lead will deform.. what about FMJ's? Copper is a LOT harder than lead. Besides, pointed bullets don't really play a factor in lever guns mostly due to the situation that you will rarely if ever use them beyond 200 yards. I would think most people who are using a lever gun are working at "woods" ranges as opposed to the western wide open country where you would likely pick a bolt gun.

Another argument against pointed bullets in a lever gun (save box magazine fed guns) is that for certain cartridges (30-30 for instance) pointed bullets will generally fail to completely "mushroom" since they are constructed for higher power rounds like the 308 and 30-06. The blunt nosed bullets meant for those cartridges will likely open up better in the limited velocity situations that you'd see in those cartridges.

YMMV :)

Tully M. Pick
October 5, 2008, 11:55 PM
Putting pointed bullets in tubular magazines is a real bad idea. Hornady's Leverevolution ammo gives you the ability fire pointed ammo and skip the whole chain fire phenomenon, which is very real.

texfed
October 6, 2008, 12:04 AM
Ever drop a lead tipped round on the garage floor by accident...I have and the tip was deformed.....No, I definitely wouldn't run pointed tip rounds in a tube magazine....I figure that the people that built the rifle know more than I do, when they tell you not to in the manual!

HB
October 6, 2008, 12:11 AM
Ever drop a lead tipped round on the garage floor by accident...I have and the tip was deformed
That is kind of my point. I don't see how a round could go off with the force of a low drop or the force of recoil. The cartiges weight very little, so the force would be little on each round. It's not like the round is in free fall either though, it is trapped in the mag.

Ok, say that the lead will deform.. what about FMJ's? Copper is a LOT harder than lead
Just don't factory load them like they do now with pointed bullets. That is a legit concern though, I could see a FMJ setting on off it the fall is VERY high...

Thanks for the replies, I won't do the above until I test it, or might not even bother.
HB

.38 Special
October 6, 2008, 12:14 AM
Rifle magazine did a fairly thorough review of this a while back, and conclusively demonstrated that pointy bullets can set off other cartridges in a tubular magazine.

R.W.Dale
October 6, 2008, 12:26 AM
Rifle magazine did a fairly thorough review of this a while back, and conclusively demonstrated that pointy bullets can set off other cartridges in a tubular magazine

I took the articles results differently

They seemed to prove there is a real possibility of ignition shooting FMJ RN bullets in handgun cartridge carbines because the straight walled cases will line up end to end.

But lay some 30-30 ammo in a line on the table and even when loaded with spitzers it's obvious that bullet tips and primers would never line up.

then if by some freak chance a round did get set off the mag tube on a rifle isn't nearly sealed enough to build the pressure required for an explosion, the worst you'd end up with would be a mess to clean up.

and what about using plastic tipped bullets much like the hornady SST or B-tip?



I don't want to be the guinea pig who finds out for certain, but any time I think through this logically I come to the conclusion that this is most likely a myth from a bygone era.

Much like the open windows for a tornado garbage we were told many years ago

woof
October 6, 2008, 06:54 AM
How often does a der hunter need more than two shots? Just load one in the chamber and one in the tube. As for the argument that the bullets won't expand at the lower velocity, a >30-30 round at 50 yds has the same velocity as a .30-06 round way out there somewhere, where deer are shot with the .30-06.

Jeff F
October 6, 2008, 07:15 AM
Years ago before the Internet I saw a few pictures at the rifle range in San Leandro of a 30-30 that had a mag tube detention and the shooters hand and arm. The gun was screwed and there was quite a bit of blood. He was shooting reloads with pointed bullets.

qajaq59
October 6, 2008, 07:15 AM
It's kind of like being hit by a bus.
You could go all your life and never have it happen. But if it does.... it'll definitely ruin your day.

Double Naught Spy
October 6, 2008, 07:21 AM
It seems highly unlikely that a lead tipped bullet could set off a primer just by the force of recoil, or even a fall from a treestand Lead is a very soft metal and it would seem that the lead would deform before around could be fired....

Lead may be a soft metal, but there are different hardnesses of lead depending on the lead you are using. Copper is harder, no doubt, but you are also talking about thin copper.

Funny thing...steel is harder than lead and yet I can shoot lead through steel. Wow, how is that possible, eh? The lead should deform before passing through, right?

So the lead deforms some. Does that mean it won't dent the copper primer and cause it to ignite?

I don't think you have quite reasoned out all the factors of the problem.

How often does a der hunter need more than two shots?

I don't know. Ask the ones that have had to fend off a bear and see.

Cohibra45
October 6, 2008, 08:45 AM
Why is this even an actual thought. Even if there is a remote possibility of something like that happening, wouldn't you want to avoid it. Remember, there are a lot of people that read these posts and never write. What if some half brain reads this and says to his brother that he read that someone questioned the ability to use 'pointy' bullets in his uncles old 30/30. The other nitwit loads some spitzer bullets in his uncles 30/30 and gives it to his nephew of 14 to go deer huntin'...bad day in the woods!!!:eek:

Like I said, even the remotest ideas seem to get out there. Be smart and if you want to use 'pointy' bullets, load the new plastic tipped Hornadys!!!;)

Neckshot5seven
October 6, 2008, 08:56 AM
lets take a gasoline shower and shoot bottle rockets at eachother..... It may happen, but there is a chance.... If you want pointed bullets in a 30-30 then get an Encore or a Ruger #1

TehK1w1
October 6, 2008, 09:02 AM
I seem to recall that Buffalo Bore actually had to switch to small rifle primers in their 'magnum' 45-70 loads(they make their own cases.) Seems they had experienced recoil-fires caused by the flat-point bullets hitting the primers and setting them off. Remember, the cartridges are staggered slightly in the magazine due to the pressure of the spring, and the rim of the cartridge means there is room at the front of the case to move up or down.

If your want to use pointed bullets in a lever action, use a gun designed for it such as a Savage 99 or a BLR, or at least use Leverevolution ammo.

Gottahaveone
October 6, 2008, 09:34 AM
It seems highly unlikely that a lead tipped bullet could set off a primer just by the force of recoil, or even a fall from a treestand
I understand your intuition there, but primers are a funny thing. I have had exactly one detonate during the reloading process. I was using a Lee turret mounted priming system and at some point had gotten a flake of powder on the primer ram. As I gently applied the pressure to seat a primer, BLAM. After I got down from the ceiling, I looked at the shell and there was just about enough of a dent to actually see in the primer, and the offending grain of powder was still sitting on the ram. That was a slow compression and not a sudden impact like recoil would be, and it still fired off anyway. Better safe than sorry :)

Vern Humphrey
October 6, 2008, 09:41 AM
Rifle magazine did a fairly thorough review of this a while back, and conclusively demonstrated that pointy bullets can set off other cartridges in a tubular magazine.

Well, not exactly. What they showed is that with straight cases, where the bullet tip definitely rests against the primer in front, if a round goes off, other rounds will go off.

The damage was minimal, and they never did succeed in making a round go off by recoil.

woof
October 6, 2008, 10:22 AM
If you need more than two shots to hunt deer because of bear attacks, I suppose that explains why we never see any single shot rifles - the bears ate their owners.

TehK1w1
October 6, 2008, 12:39 PM
woof, that's a valid idea, but I for one would forget and at some point load it with 2 or more in the magazine. Besides, why limit yourself?

ziggy222
October 6, 2008, 01:00 PM
press that lead bullet tip into your arm and you'll see how hard it can be.besides that,primers are very thin.you can however buy pointed bullets designed for tubular magazines now.they have soft rubber tips that will not set off a primer.i think its made by hornady

jordan1948
October 6, 2008, 01:16 PM
Well it must have happened before to some ppl otherwise it would just be a myth

R.W.Dale
October 6, 2008, 01:22 PM
Well it must have happened before to some ppl otherwise it would just be a myth

but if it happened there would be pics or reports SOMEWHERE. Thus far no one has been able to dig up anything solid.

If a Glock Kbooms all by itself alone in a forest within the hour pictures of the event are posted on at least 90% of the gunboards on the net

Shawnee
October 6, 2008, 01:30 PM
The "knowledge" about pointy bullets being dangerous in a tube magazine goes back to at least the 1920s. Perhaps it is true - perhaps it was more likely back 90-100 years ago (maybe primers were different) than it is now - and perhaps it is an old wives' tale that modern day gun-industry corporate lawyers (and/or marketing lizards) deem advisable to keep alive.

:confused:

MikeD999999
October 6, 2008, 06:23 PM
I know a man who is missing the ends of three of his fingers from exactly what you are talking about. Kent Lomont of Lomont Precision Bullets in Idaho. http://www.klomont.com/

He was shooting a tube magazine rifle with pointy tipped rounds and the recoil set off ALL the rounds in the tube. He told me so himself and showed me his hand.

Call him and ask him about it. I sure he'd warn you against it.

Mike D.

Shawnee
October 6, 2008, 06:48 PM
Yeow ! :eek: That'll be one fellow who will need no more convincing.

Makes a good case for not "daring the Devil".

:cool:

Floppy_D
October 6, 2008, 06:50 PM
lets take a gasoline shower and shoot bottle rockets at eachother.....

I'll bring the beer. :D

ziggy222
October 6, 2008, 09:52 PM
i'm just sick enough to watch that lol.put it on utube.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 10:46 PM
"lets take a gasoline shower and shoot bottle rockets at each other."....

I'll bring the beer.

Lol! :D


If a Glock Kbooms all by itself alone in a forest within the hour pictures of the event are posted on at least 90% of the gunboards on the net

And rest assured, Glocks DO Kb "all by themselves alone in the forest". :neener:

phantomak47
October 6, 2008, 10:50 PM
Simple answer, get a Savage 99, .300 savage and .308 , pointed bullets all day long.

jjohnson
October 6, 2008, 11:10 PM
I like that idea. Okay, go ahead and load your 30-30 spitzer ammo and load just two rounds. If you miss with both shots, it's probably gone anyway. I doubt I could cycle a lever action for a well aimed third shot before whatever it was I shot at would be in high gear.

And... well, if you're that bad a shot.... maybe you need and M1A or something. :D

Cypress
October 7, 2008, 02:11 AM
Whoever thinks that they need to try this for whatever insane reason PLEASE DO NOT DO IT AT A PUBLIC SHOOTING RANGE. I have no problem with someone deciding to disfigure themselves but try not to hurt the bystanders. Oh yeah... and do it outside so no one has to clean up the mess.

jjohnson
October 7, 2008, 08:18 AM
Absolutely. Not only is there a mess to clean up, and I hate being around things that detonate because somebody ELSE did something stupid, :eek:
I hate having to fill out all that paperwork and answer all the questions that have to come from the police and insurance people. :what:

Please make sure you schedule your accidents when I'm not around. I'm too busy to fool with it.:p

moooose102
October 7, 2008, 09:58 AM
it does not take a lot of pressure to dent a primer, and once this happens, it goes off. while there does not seem like a lot of force from recoil in some guns, you have to think that there are 2 thing working against you from the get go.

#1 is the tube magazine spring. it is exerting pressure on every cartridge in the magazine, and the more rounds in the tube, the more pressure there is.

the second thing going on in there is the tiny amount of area on the tip of the bullet. with a flat point bullet, the area is greatly increased, with a pointed bullet the amount of psi drasticly increases because the area decreases to almost nothing. if a flat point bullet had a pressure of 50 psi on the bullet tip, a pointed bullet would have something like 600 psi (i am no mathamatician, and have no way of calculating the actual pressure difference) when the gun is not being fired.

now add the recoil factor into this, and the pressure would be easily tenfold of the static loading.

this is how primers get dented enough to fire. and once one goes off, all of them do. so if you have 6 rounds in the magazine, you have six times the pressure, and shrapnel plus the srapnel of the tube magazine itself as it ruptures and shreds.

JUST DON'T DO IT!!! if you want to use pointed bullets, it can be safely done. you just have to hand feed them into the chamber one at a time.
i have been doing this on and off for years with my 30-30, and i do it with round nose bullets in my 45/70.

JUST DO NOT PUT THEM IN THE TUBE MAGAZINE!

The Lone Haranguer
October 7, 2008, 10:03 AM
You can use pointed bullets if you make your lever action a two-shot (one chambered and one in the magazine, or two in the magazine and the lever cycled just before you wish to fire). The problem here is that you may forget and load more than one (or two).

ocharry
October 7, 2008, 11:04 AM
i know this isn't a 30-30 but during the cowboy years of my shooting career,,,i have seen two henry rifles do the detonation thing,,and they were loaded with RNFP bullets in 45 cal.,,,,one i was about 10 feet away from and it was in the hands of a good friend of mine

on both occasions the follower slipped from the hand while loading

when the magazine is full and the follower is put down on the loaded rounds it has about 4" to fall to the rounds,, well it is the spring that is forcing the follower down hard on the rounds

while that may be more forceful than a round being recoiled upon while loaded in a magazine,, they are flat nose bullets

the result of a detonation is really ugly,,,,,lucky for my bud he had a glove on his left hand,,,,it still took a few stitches,,,,rifle was a wreck,,he never fixed it,,said he would use it to remind him and to look at

there are a lot of guys using henry rifles in cowboy action shooting and have no trouble,, and they look cool too,,,,,but it only takes one time to screw things up

i guess it's kinda like a chain fire in a cap&ball revolver,,,,,once it starts,, there is no stopping it

does it happen alot? no,,, could it happen? yes,,,would it happen with pointy bullets???? i'm betting you wouldn't have to wait long on that one

my .02

ocharry

1KPerDay
October 7, 2008, 12:56 PM
That is kind of my point. I don't see how a round could go off with the force of a low drop or the force of recoil.
You've obviously never taped BBs to pimed shells and tossed them in the air like... someone I know.

fastbike
October 9, 2008, 11:32 PM
The pressure would increase by a factor equal to the difference between the squares of the two diameters.

The whole thing may be an urban myth, but I'm not willing to test it in my lever gun.


"the second thing going on in there is the tiny amount of area on the tip of the bullet. with a flat point bullet, the area is greatly increased, with a pointed bullet the amount of psi drasticly increases because the area decreases to almost nothing. if a flat point bullet had a pressure of 50 psi on the bullet tip, a pointed bullet would have something like 600 psi (i am no mathamatician, and have no way of calculating the actual pressure difference) when the gun is not being fired. "

philuk44
October 10, 2008, 04:47 AM
I have seen the result of a magazine detonation in a repro Henry rifle. My local gunsmith had it in for examination. I believe it was the result of the magazine follower slipping as in ocharry's post. The damage wasn't too bad - mag tube was split and some fore-end damage. The shooter apparently had some splinters in his hand but was pretty lucky.

The strange thing was the rounds were still in the mag tube and the bullets had set back into the cases (some had split) and were rattling around in there. :confused:

Phil

ImARugerFan
October 10, 2008, 08:54 AM
Hornady fixed this question for you by creating leverevolution, just use that.

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