45 Acp For Bear?

[moooose102]

where i walk my dogs, and target shoot out in the woods, there has very recently been reports /sightings of black bear. i have not seen one as of yet.
but last night, i took my dogs to the woods to walk one, and the other i let run loose. the one i let run loose, i do so for 2 reasons, 1) she is so strong, she hurts me bad ( i have a terrible back ) and i usually spend 1-3 days & nights on the couch recouperating. 2) is because she is just over a year old, and is so full of p.&v. she needs to run to get enough exercise so we can live with her.
anyway. she normally runs out in 50-100 foot circles around me, and comes back often to find me. last night, on one of her circles, she never came back. i back tracked all the way to the truck, and she was in her kennel with the door open, shaking. something had scared the heck out of her, so it makes me wonder if it was a bear.
so back to my original question, i usually take my 45 acp with 230 g fmj bulltes in it, just in case i have some sort of trouble. last night, all i had was my 380, and a 16 gauge with #7 shot in it. neither one much of a bear stopper.
on the outside chance that i do run into this bear, am i just going to make it mad by shooting it with my 45? i wouldnt shoot it unless it was charging me. i would however shoot at a stump or tree to make noise to hopefully scare it off.

[Squeaky Duck]

Most auto pistols are awful light for use on a bear. But if the 45 is all you got, better make sure you have spare magazines.

I's be thinking more along the lines of a magnum for ANY bear.

[loneviking]

Well, it sure beats nothing and it sure is better than a .380! :D

Seriously, most black bears aren't all that tough and die rather easily so the 45 should do the job. The problem is that it might not have been a bear. If it was a cougar, the dog could be in trouble. Either way, I'd load the shotgun with 00 or 000 buck or make sure the .45 was with me. As for the dog being scared, sometimes a bit of fear can be really effective at making them grow up---just like some teenagers I know.

[Deanimator]

The problem is that it might not have been a bear. If it was a cougar, the dog could be in trouble.
I did a quick check, and while it's not impossible that it was a cougar, it doesn't seem that likely.

In any case, from what I've read neither black bears nor cougars are all that tough, both being susceptible to .357 Magnum from a revolver with a reasonable barrel length.

[Treo]

With all due respect I’m going to focus on the dog, letting the dog run loose is a good way to get it to piss of the bear and lead it straight back to you. I would suggest a Halti collar or a Gentle Lead collar for the dog. They’re relatively cheap and they cure the runaway dog problem instantly.( and I might add, they will do so w/out damage to your back) They also keep the dog from unpleasant encounters w/ skunks, porcupines, raccoons, mountain lions and idiots that see the dog running loose and think it’s a stray and take it home (I’ve actually seen this happen on Barr Trail in Colorado Springs).

If the area the bears are in is where you target shoot, the noise of the pistol may not faze them all so if you’re going to shoot I would shoot at the bear. And last comment, I would try bear spray first.

[scrat]

yep i agree with Treo try not to let the dog run loose

[wyocarp]

The .45 acp isn't the last caliber I'd want with me to shoot a bear, but it's a long ways down the list from the top. Bear hunting is my favorite hobby, I've shot them with a lot of different stuff, but I wouldn't take a .45 acp to do the job, ever.

[Dead]

A 45 us better than trying to stop a bear by poking it in the eye when it is eating you ;p

[ZeSpectre]

Okay, the -average- black bear is roughly human sized and carries roughly human weight so any round that is effective against a human is -probably- going to be at least somewhat effective against a bear.

HOWEVER, there are some important additional points to consider.

1) Thick fur, fat, and slightly heavier bone structure do make a bear (even a small black) slightly more "armored" than the average human.

2) Psychology, a human who is shot will almost always react to the PSYCHOLOGY of being shot at least as much as the PHYSICAL damage. A bear doesn't understand "being shot" and isn't going to suddenly pause and say "Oh my, I've been shot", sit down and start crying for an ambulance, so you are going to have to KEEP shooting until the bear is actually down (probably while it's charging).

Given those facts I think I'd much prefer something a bit heavier (.357 Magnum) but I suspect good shot placement from a .45ACP (if you could manage it) would get the job done.

[Farnorthdan]

.45acp 230 ball would be OK against a small blackie, not perfect but OK. Its all shot placement, depends on where you hit it. Now a brownie is a different story, muscle mass and penetration are big considerations. Myself I'd want a large caliber rifle but often carry my super redhawk in .454 Casull....

DS

[Tirod]

A recent article on the mythology of the .45 ACP invites the following:

The writer suggests that since the Cavalry was the dominant combat force, it was they who saw the .38 as ineffective. They wanted something big enough to knock down the horse, in the Cav's weapon of choice, the pistol. The Phillippine action was just coincidental to development - but if it worked for horses, so much the better for humans.

So, the .45 would be the caliber of choice to incapacitate 1300 pound four legged animals. Why not bear, too, at that rate?

Certainly runs counter to what I've been taught.

Offered strictly for your consideration, and not my idea.

[Kosh75287]

If I simply HAD to use a .45 ACP to defend myself from black bear, I would probably want it loaded with a cast projectile weighing at least 225 grains having a very large meplat, and driven just as fast as I could get out of the 5" barrel. The Lee Precision 225 T/C is the one I have in mind, but anything that'll feed well and has a large flat point on it would be to my liking.
With the judicious use of load data that is decidedly INjudicious, it may be possible to launch these at or near 1000 f/s. The use of an especially heavy recoil spring plus a buffer might help things.
Personally, I'd feel better fending off a cantankerous black bear with a heavily loaded .45 Colt Redhawk, but I understand well the notion of using the firearms one actually owns. The old advice about "beware the man who only shoots (owns?) one gun" comes to mind. It's possible that you can compensate for insufficient power with superb shot placement. I don't like to so things like that, because targets get small and backgrounds get big when the stress is on. Practicing one's shooting on a regular basis with an eye toward hitting the bear's snout (if it's facing you on all fours) at various ranges may prove to be life-saving.

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, the -average- black bear is roughly human sized and carries roughly human weight so any round that is effective against a human is -probably- going to be at least somewhat effective against a bear.

Right so in adding to your list...

3. But the only problem here is that bears will often attack shooters (if they understand the origin of the shot) and bears have a nasty propensity of not being stopped by the first shot(s) (and for a myriad of reasons).

4. The problem here is that if the stop is not attained quickly before the bear reaches the shooter, the violence exerted by the bear on the shooter is going to result in the need for medical attention, quite possible immediate medical attention. Even very brief attacks involving a few bites and/or slashes of the claws can produce such results.

5. While the bear may eventually die, death may come to the shooter due to shock, even from wounds that might not otherwise be lethal if medical attention was immediately available.

6. It can be hard to get proper shots on a charging bear that will incapacitate the bear. Head shots sound really good, but the head is often missed due to the fact that there is so much fur and muscle around the head that shots fail to penetrate the relatively narrow cranium, actually glance off the skull due to its curved nature, or just hit soft tissue or fur around the head. In fact, you can shoot the bear through the eye and have the round pass along side the cranium, unlike in humans.

[Picard]

The writer suggests that since the Cavalry was the dominant combat force, it was they who saw the .38 as ineffective. They wanted something big enough to knock down the horse, in the Cav's weapon of choice, the pistol. The Phillippine action was just coincidental to development - but if it worked for horses, so much the better for humans.

I've heard that story as well, that the .45 was chosen because it could effectively take down a horse.

I thought I'd add this link. It's one of the most intense hunting videos that I've ever seen and fits well with the topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw

[Inspector]

If a .45 is all you have, then empty the magazine on him -- if need be.

[mp510]

You mentioned that you were keeping the 16 gauge at hand just in case as well. How about substituting some rifled slugs in place of the birdshot.

[sherman123]

if you have the 16 gauge with you my first though is either a slug or buckshot before considering a handgun

[10X]

A local cop required three rounds from a 9mm to kill a black bear.
A local Division of Wildlife officer has killed black bear with a 45 ACP.
A 45 will work, but like anything else shot placement is key.

[Colt46]

But, probably good enough for most casual encounters with black bears. I'd opt for penetration over expansion in ammo selection though. A .357 with heavier bullets would be better.

[Pure Kustom]

If all else fails :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7MGd_kakf8&feature=related

seriously I would use a .44 magnum .45 might just piss him off enough to be able to get to you before he drops, If he drops. :eek: I wouldn't want to find out!!!:eek:

[ArcherandShooter]

I just got back from 7 days in the Wyoming Rockies about Grand Teton NP, and the folks there (guides as well as park ranger types) say that a good bear spray IN A LARGE ENOUGH CONTAINER is much more likely to stop a bear attack than even a heavy handgun.

According to them, something like 80% of bear confrontations are resolved without injury to the human if they use a good bear spray, as opposed to a MUCH lower number where the human relies on a pistol, no matter the caliber. In fact, all of the hunters in camp were told that bear spray was mandatory equipment outside of camp.

One nice thing they pointed out - the sprays are good out to 10 to 12 yards, and your aim doesn't have to be quite as good as with a pistol, because at that range they create not just a stream, but a lingering cloud of irritant that the bear will have to pass through to get to you, giving you more protection than a bullet that either hits or misses and then is gone.

Now, these were grizzly bears, not blackies, that we were facing, and therefore tougher to kill with a pistol round, but I'd look at it the other way - if such a spray will stop a grizzly 80% of the time, it ought to be good for black bears, too.

Just my $.02.

[B.D. Turner]

You are way under gunned with a .45 ACP for black bear.

[Water-Man]

A revolver is more appropriate for a bear encounter. If you were actually attacked by a bear you would/should be pressing the muzzle of your handgun against the animal and depressing the trigger until the gun is empty. A semi-auto is not suited for such work. Get a magnum caliber.

[BBQLS1]

I'd want .44 mag.

[GE-Mini-Gun]

Same question was asked couple years ago in a magazine…the author mentioned to ensure the gun was fully loaded (8+1)…save the last shot for yourself…your death would be more pleasant. I’m of the belief to “use enough gun” and the 45 ain’t it. Your talking about an animal…how many times have you seen or heard of deer being shot with .308’s and bigger and still run off. As someone already mentioned he might die but not until he does some damage. I walk my lab in a similar environment as you and carry a S&W 329 with some VERY hot hand loads…you never know.

[JImbothefiveth]

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm
You could convert your 1911 to .460 rowland, which I hear is a little weaker than .44 magnum.

Or just get a heavy caliber revolver. And do you have a 12 gauge shotgun? There are some very powerful 12 gauge loadings available.

[MT GUNNY]

The rummer around here is that this hunter was caring a .45 1911
http://fwp.mt.gov/news/article_5996.aspx
I cant find local paper article but if I remember right he sid he emptied a mag at the Grizz.

You can find others if you skim through http://fwp.mt.gov/news/search.aspx

[Old Grump]

Back to original question, yes the 45 ACP will work but it is light for the job. Stick with the 230 grain hardball because you don't really care so much about expansion as you do penetration. I carry a 44 mag if I'm hunting or a 41 mag if just hiking because its 2/3 the weight but thats because I have them. Before I did I had the 45 and I practice regularly up to 100 yards with it slow fire and rapid fire at 7-50 yards. Use 8 round magazines if you have them and do some practice to make sure the gun and magazines are going to work for you when/if you need them. Never mind buckshot for a bear, use slugs. You don't really want to hit him anymore than you have to and the slugs will penetrate farther than any shot. Deer and horses are a lot thinner skinned than a black bear even if he is only 300 pounds.

Don't do like my buddy did. Shot once, the bear dropped, he dropped his rifle and ran up to the bear, she stood up. Fortunately he had his 44 mag and from 6' away he emptied it into her. Threw his pants away, cleaned up the best he could, wrapped his coat around him like a kilt and came home. He still has the guns but he doesn't buy bear tags anymore and he is ever so grateful it was a black bear and not a grizzly.

[paintballdude902]

.45 is fine as a handgun

i wouldnt want to use it for hunting but if you pop 3-4 shots into it its not gonna be coming anymore

i hunt bear every year and i take a .44mag rifle or a .30-30

doc, one of the older guys that hunts with us, only takes 1 gun a .22 pistol and he has killed more bear with that than anyone else with their rifles. given he is 83 and has been bear hunting since he was 12 he usually fires 1 shot a year and gets 1 bear a year hits it every time right in the ear

[20nickels]

I have an S&W 625. I would not feel undergunned around Black Bear w/ a 250 grain cast boolit at 1000-1100 fps. Brown and Grizz are a diff story.
My only question is would one go with a wide meplat wadcutter for a wider wound path or a RNFP for max penetration?

[mainebear]

I shot a 200 lb Maine Black Bear with a 45 acp. Three times before it died. It'll do the job in a pinch but unless you place that shot just right big big troubles could be roaring your way.

That day I thought I was gonna pass out when that thing finally dropped, about 15 feet from me. The hair still stands up on the back of my neck when I think about it. When I called my friends to come help me drag it out I told em it weighed, best as I could guess, between 400-500 lbs. (Much giggling ,chortling , snorting and ribbing when they saw the bear) Anyway the point is your pushing it, even with a smallish bear.

[rugerman07]

If your hellbent on carrying a handgun for black bears, get a S&W 500. It will splatter their blatter.

[Artiz]

The reaction of a bear, as I have seen a couple, will be: Outch! What is that thing? Oh it's him, GO!
The fact is... the bear will know you are there, you won't know it, but he will, he will smell you and your dogs from a couple of kilometers, and will be more likely to get you from your back than anything else, always take a look at the direction where the wind is going, the bear won't smell you if you have the wind in your face and him in front of you, but if he is behind you, you're done.
BUT, the fact is that bears won't charge a human unless you surprised him, if you make some noise, he will run away and you will never notice it.

[moooose102]

OK, SOME of you guys are missing the point. first, the 16 gauge was for shooting squirrels, and second, the 45 is what i normally carry, just in case of s.h.t.f. . my preffered gun (that i own) for black bear, would be my 45/70 with 405 flat points driven @ 1950 fps! almost enough to tip over a tank, but not quite. i would never consider setting off to purposly hunt a bear with my 45. a 454 casull, or 500 s&w mag would be a different story. i am and was thinking that my 45 was really light for black bear. but i usually over gun for everything. i was curious as to how you guys thought i would fair against a black bear if i was not specifically prepared for one. as in, "surprise, roar, i am bear" when i turned the next corner.

[kcshooter]

Shoot fast.

Run faster.

[paintballdude902]

artiz if i was on a walk or hiking i would rather have th bear smell me so it knows im there

most black bear will just run off in 5 years of bear hunting i have never seen someone get charged...might have sumthing to do with th 3-10 hound nipping at its heal but still

[cavman]

.45 for Gummy Bears.

The skull is the biggest problem. If it is a charger (unlikely for Blackies, tho', they normally will run away from you), the head might be all you get a look at. Then you are in trouble.

[Hk91-762mm]

Im told that if you shoot bears with a pistol its best to file down the front sight ==That way when the bear takes the thing away from you and sticks it up your arse it wont hurt so much !!
Now a shotgun with slugs is a stopper -Alaskan Guides carry 12 ga with slugs as a back up !
I have shot 12ga federal 3in Mag slugs they dig a 6in wide 3in deep trench 3 ft long in hard pack dirt behind the target-I shot 4 saved the 5th for a souviner as my sholder had enough !! They kick worse than a 375H+H

[ants]

Yep, I was waiting for someone to offer the 'front sight' trick!!! I love it!

If bears are reported in a certain section of the woods, why don't you avoid that section of the woods?

I love all you guys, but in 54 years of dealing with wildlife I find that we usually miss the simplest and most important aspect:

If you're hunting for them, you frequent the place they are known to be.
But to avoid being the victim, you avoid the place they are known to be.

Last point is humorous: Here out west it is often advised that you hunt with a fat guy. If a bear attacks, you don't have to outrun the bear. You only have to outrun the fat guy.

[KelVarnson]

I recommend a pinch collar for your dog. It's like a choke chain, but it has little tongs on it that pinch his flesh if he pulls. I have a 110 lb lab mix that was a beast to control, and that brought him in line immediately.

[TallPine]

if i was on a walk or hiking i would rather have th bear smell me so it knows im there

Taking baths might be a hazard to your health :D


I've only had one bear approach me, and s/he apparently did not realize I was (still) there. I had woke him/her out of his/her bed, and s/he ran off. Scared both of us I think as I was only maybe 30 feet away. While I was just standing around looking at the spot, s/he came ambling back apparently aiming to get back in a nice warm bed and get some more sleep. I watched with fascination until my self-preservation reflex started screaming "that bear is too close!"

I started backing away slowly and the bear noticed me and took off for good. The point of the story is that though I never even drew, my .357 seemed awfully puny in comparison with that big hairy living bear. :uhoh:

Other bears I've actually followed or stalked just to see how close I could get. They apparently don't hear or see all that well because if they don't smell you then you can sneak up on them pretty easy. A bear can look straight at you from 10-15 yards and not even see you if you stand still.

BTW, I have to wonder how many "successful" bear spray contacts are with bears that weren't really attacking ??? I.E. people pepper spraying at bears that were not a problem to begin with ...?

[jaholder1971]

If you're in bear country and waling the dog unleashed, you're asking for a bear encounter. Leash the dog.

If you reload, I'd consider a hardcast 200 or 255 LSWC moving at +P velocities. Add a Shock buffer and a #22 recoil spring and you should do well.

[gentleman987]

I would go with something with more power at least a 44. magnum in my opinion.

[Loosedhorse]

Why would anyone want to shoot such small bears?

:)

[wyocarp]

What the heck is everyone talking about shot placement for? Are we talking about hunting bears where there might be time for shot placement, or are we talking about self defense against a bear where I would doubt very many would even have time to think about shot placement much less get it done?

[Sir Aardvark]

There was an incident in the mid-80's where the Buena Park, CA Police Dept. had to shoot a cow that got loose on the freeway.

If I remember correctly, they shot it more than 40 times with their .45ACP's before they could kill it.

The media gave them a lot of flack over this.

The Police Dept's. response was that the .45ACP lacked sufficient penetration to kill a big animal - the cartridge was designed for man-sized threats - cows can weigh around 800 pounds, or so.

So... if it's a small bear, it will probably work good enough.

[Golden Hound]

Lorcin makes a great .25-caliber "Bear Buster" - you've got to hit 'em right in the eye, though.

[Dihappy]

If tearing a deer's heart in half with a .308 and having it still run off is how we base our choice of caliber for a bear, then your going to need a lot more than a .357, and even then, youll have to shoot him in the head.

The point is, even with a .357 through the chest at close range, the bear may still kill you.

Your going to have to get a few shots off with good placement and hope that nervous system shock drops him quickly.

If you dont own a .357, .460, or .500, I wouldnt go off and leave my .45 acp at home. Its better than nothing.

[Erik]

The list of thin skinned predators that the .45acp is inadequate for in terms of stopping a charge includes black bears.

[yeti]

Who gets attacked by Black Bear anyhow?:confused: Maybe all our Blackies are wimps, though they don't like to share the black berries, and they do tend to be a tad protective of their cubs. Mostly they want less to do with me then I with them.

Now the skunks and pork-U-pines, they are a pain. I hate pullin' quills outa the dog's muzzle:eek:, and I think I rather get et by the bear then have to drive off the mountain with a fresh sprayed dog riding shotgun.:what:

:evil:

[Claude Clay]

slap a GPS on the bear and 911 for reagan orbital satellite counter measures assist :rolleyes:

if you defense starts with 45, its gotta end with at least a 70

[Old Grump]

moooose102, some of us did get the point thats why I said use the regular hardball and keep a couple of slugs in your pocket or in your ammo pouch. I'm 63 and have seen a lot of black bears in the north woods of Wisconsin and a couple in the mountains of southern New Mexico. I have never felt the need to draw and shoot at one and I would rather stand 30' from a black bear than a badger who is only a fraction of the size. Never faced a grizzly but black bears have never been a problem unless you meet one that some dopes have been giving handouts to. Have had them come into my camp and rummage through the garbage can unsuccessfully in a state park near El Capitan New Mexico and even my 2 dogs didn't get excited. Enjoy the show and don't get all excited but if you have to defend yourself the 45 is enough gun.

The reason I carry my 41 or 44 isn't bears or wolves but the wild hogs in my area. Not that they are a danger but they are vermin that need to be eradicated so I want all the gun I can carry. I don't like having to shoot something twice.

[wnycollector]

+1 on the bear spray suggestions.

Before I picked up my 1st .357, my woods carry pistol was a SIG P220 loaded with DT +p 230gr FMJ flat points. While it may not be the 1st choice of many, it was the biggest pistol I had.

[gwnorth]

Okay, the -average- black bear is roughly human sized and carries roughly human weight so any round that is effective against a human is -probably- going to be at least somewhat effective against a bear.

Really? Boy, growing up in N. Ontario gives me a different perspective. Most black bears up in the Kirkland Lake Ont. area are in the range of 250-400lbs for a female and up to 600lbs for a male. I would generalize and characterize most black bears I've ever seen as between 2-3 times the mass of an average human. And at this time of year, they'd have a massive, thick layer of fat and skin that would likely keep a .45acp body shot from reaching anything remotely vital.

As a kid, I used to carry a 12ga shotgun with rifled slugs when hiking/camping and so forth in black bear country.

[ZeSpectre]

Wow, glad I didn't grow up in your area. We thought 300lb was a BIG black bear (Upstate NY).

[texfed]

I may get fragged for this.....but several companies make a huge pepper spray canister just for bears and they work quite well. If you ever go to a few of the national parks in bear country they rent em, if you don't break the seal..you can return it.
Guard Alaska ultra hot pepper spray has proven so effective repelling bears, it is the only one registered with the EPA as arepellent for ALL SPECIES of bear!

People pepper spray is not the same as bear pepper spray. Only EPA approved bear sprays may be sold as deterrents against bears and have specific minimum requirements that must be met. Guard Alaska has an EPA registration number on its labeling.
http://www.safetygearhq.com/images/bearspray.jpg

[ImARugerFan]

If you're carrying the 16ga with you, why not just bring a few slugs along in your pocket?

[wnycollector]

I remember as a kid in the 70's going up to a friends cottage up near sudbury, ont. Every few nights we would drive to the local dump and watch the bears tear through the garbage! Those were some BIG well fed bears:)

[coachteet]

I would generalize and characterize most black bears I've ever seen as between 2-3 times the mass of an average human. And at this time of year, they'd have a massive, thick layer of fat and skin that would likely keep a .45acp body shot from reaching anything remotely vital.

Perhaps if you threw the round at the bear...

I can see bone slowing a 45acp round sufficiently to keep it from the vitals, and that would be the tricky part. It would certainly be charging forward, so a body shot would likely hit sternum. But if you are talking about fat and muscle, it will react about the same as ballistics gel. A decent hollowpoint round should get 12 or more inches of penetration.

Once again, the man is talking about a "oh @#$%" encounter, not hunting. Best bet would be to plan ahead, especially if you walk the woods in bear couintry. I wouldn't go with less than a 357, but a 44 would be better.

[moooose102]

i have one of those "pinch collars" for my dog, it barely slows her down when i yank on it as hard as i can. when she gets excited and full of pent up energy, there isn't much that will slow her down. i keep telling my wife we should hook her to a harness, and have her tow a 1972 cadillac to detroit. that would calm her down. but, alas, i do not have a harness, or a 1972 cadillac. as for the 16 gauge slugs, i had thought of that, but unloading the shotgun, then reloading it with slugs is way to time consuming if i have a bear charging at me. i think i will just have to hunt alone (no dog) and when i take her out to the woods to run, take along my 45/70 with 5 - 400 grain flat points plowing along @ 1900 fps. if that does not stop a bear, well then, i guess it will have to eat me. the chances of it happening are small , and i know that. it's just that bears really do freak me out. i dont know why. but honestly, i would rather meet up with a cougar than a bear. i know what the cougar will do. the bear, is anyones guess.

[flyby]

For Bear Defense I'd stay with a quality Bear Spray ..Or multiple shotgun slugs :)
..some good bear links...
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html
http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/b_spray.html
http://www.ultimatesportsmen.com/stories2/bearattack.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pLsM2ijRao

[outerlimit]

This is the perfect excuse to get a S&W .460 and some 16gauge slugs.

[MechAg94]

After seeing this thread title, I was thinking: A spear would work for bear if that is all you got, but it ain't preferred.

[dmazur]

While I still am a firm follower of the 1911 in .45ACP for two-legged problems, I have read enough about bears to believe that something on the order of a .44Mag is minimum for bear protection.

In other words, people who have actually had to defend against an attack by a bear, even a black bear, were glad to have the .44Mag and wished they had something larger.

(Oh sure, pepper spray first. No reason to kill it if it can be convinced to run off...)

It took me quite a while to reach this decision, as I just didn't want to give up the comfort of my familiar 1911, even temporarily.

Then I recalled the "It's not supposed to be comfortable, it's supposed to be comforting" statement. While this wasn't intended to answer the .44Mag question, it answered it for me.

If it's bears and not human miscreants, I want a hand cannon. The .44Mag is the biggest one I can shoot with anything approaching control.

[S&Wfan]

45 Acp For Bear?

Naaah, a bear doesn't need a .45 if they want to kill you.;)

Seriously though,

My first recommendation is to stuff your pocket full of tiny doggie treats, leash the pup and start training him that he gets rewarded ONLY when he stops jerking your around and starts following your lead. It will take a few patient days, but soon he'll start following you! Then, walking will be a pleasure for you both . . . and also make it safer for you both too!

Here in Georgia, I probably would not have a problem toting a .45ACP automatic OR my chopped, 3" barreled Model 25-2 .45ACP revolver in black bear country, for the odds of needing it for bear are slim.

A properly placed head shot will put a bear right down . . . even with a .22LR bullet. BUT . . . miss by a little and things go downhill REAL fast!

Yep . . . your loyal dog BY YOUR SIDE would be a great deterrent too!

T.

[rolltide]

45acp for black bear?

DON"T DO IT!!!!!

Minimum 41mag, 44mag better

[TonyB]

Hk91-you beat me to it!!;)

[ccsniper]

black bear is roughly human sized and carries roughly human weight

ive seen some pretty hefty people in my time but none quite as large as a full size black bear, the females i have seen have been from 120 to almost 300 lbs. the males anywhere from 200 to 400 lbs. use buckshot or use your dear rifle. i love the 30 30 for blackies

[wyocarp]

Who gets attacked by Black Bear anyhow?

You must not read much.

black bear is roughly human sized and carries roughly human weight

Uh, not really. The fat, the muscle, the skin, the bone structure, the hair (dry/wet)? All of it works against a bullet. Heck, use whatever you want.

[ripcurlksm]

Ive asked the same question, these may help

.45 ACP Caliber Bear Ammo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=244436

.45-08
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=249551

Armed on a backpacking trip
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237931

in short, it seems like
1) pistols aren't ideal
2) perhaps any firearm would serve the purpose of making a loud enough noise to scare it
3) shot placement, shot placement, shot placement
4) hot round

[lloveless]

Amazing the differences in peoples reaction to the question. I was trained in tracking at the Tremont school in the Great Smoky Mountains and had a chance to talk with Ranger/trackers. Black bears in that area are 75-200 lbs. They advocated taking a walking stick and attacking them , beating them severely about the face and especially the nose. They mentioned since PETA came around the rangers were unable to do this and the bears became nuisances in the campgrounds. Of course these gentleman were also armed with .357 magnums, which were rarely used.
Interesting that the sound of a gun reportedly doesn't deter a bear, but the sound of Pepper spray does?
Bear Spray they claim is 1.4%-1.8%. Human Pepper spray typically is 5%-15%. A lot of this info doesn't make sense.
lloveless

[LightningMan]

I thinks I would want a little more punch than a .45 ACP, as many have suggested here a mag. cal. revolver would be better, which is what I would want, preferably a .454 Casull or bigger. If an auto pistol is desired then I would start with a .45 Win. Mag. as you can get up to 300 grain bullets loaded up to 1400 fps. Another auto option would be a Desert Eagle .50 AE. LM

[orionengnr]

as for the 16 gauge slugs, i had thought of that, but unloading the shotgun, then reloading it with slugs is way to time consuming if i have a bear charging at me.

Is there any reason you could not have the slugs loaded up and ready to go? I'd rather happen upon a squirrel and have the wrong load than happen upon a bear and have the wrong load... :)

[M203Sniper]

10mm

.41

.44

12 ga

.308

30.06

30/30 all suitable for bear. but .45ACP not so much. you Can't out run a bear.

[Troy26]

According to them, something like 80% of bear confrontations are resolved without injury to the human if they use a good bear spray,

Yeah, but if you're part of that other 20% and you're not sufficiently armed, it's gonna suck.

[Ben86]

If you are going to shoot a bear with a pistol its best that its a magnum. I don't doubt a .45 can do the job though. Just shoot until it stops, then once more to the side of the head behind the ears.

Keep in mind that bears are also killed with arrows. So is a .45 sufficient, I'd say so.

I'd look into bear spray still and not let your dog wonder too far.

[ZeSpectre]

According to them, something like 80% of bear confrontations are resolved without injury to the human if they use a good bear spray
Which is great, but you'd better have a "plan B" as well because if the odds go against you the consequences are pretty darn severe.

[Webbj0219]

There was an ad Id heard of of a .357 mag hand gun killing a grizzly bear. This was supposed to be true, but they didnt have all the details in the ad. I guess the guy had extra hot .357's in a revolver with maybe a foot long barrell. And there was a team of experienced hunters that knew exactly where to hit the bear and from what angle to be the most effective. Also they were tracking the bear down, might be alot different for someone that is totally caught off gaurd by a bear coming outa nowhere and firing random shots in the bears direction.

[ncpammo]

.45 is just a little to small for me when going up against a bear. I would go with a .357 of 44 more stopping power and penetration!!

[flyby]

There was an ad Id heard of of a .357 mag hand gun killing a grizzly bear. This was supposed to be true, but they didnt have all the details in the ad. I guess the guy had extra hot .357's in a revolver with maybe a foot long barrell. And there was a team of experienced hunters that knew exactly where to hit the bear and from what angle to be the most effective. Also they were tracking the bear down, might be alot different for someone that is totally caught off gaurd by a bear coming outa nowhere and firing random shots in the bears direction.
The .357 mag has at one time or other killed every large animal type on the North American continent ..but that doesn't mean its recommended :) ..a larger 357 revolver would probably be ok for Black Bear though ..so long as its not one of the rare 700 pounders. :eek:

[James T Thomas]

The "cousin" to the ACP; the Colt was used by the ranch hands against large cattle on the range and worked well, as given in various history documents about the Wild West.

I percieve a similarity in size, etc. to the black bear.

230 grain FMJ.

[Blacksmoke]

It is a bad idea to shoot Black Bears with a .45 ACP. You will most likely wound the animal and that presents numerous complications, the least of which is trying to explain yourself to a game warden without appearing to be a fool.

Game warden: "So, you thought the bear was a VC? just 'cuase he is wearing black?" Questions of that sort can be hard to answer. You thought you knew what you were doing at the time but later it is hard to articulate what was going through your mind.

You are a lot better off with bear spray and following practical advice about walking in bear country.

[Walkalong]

Sure, if you just want to piss him off. :uhoh:

[EHL]

I agree with Bear spray, but 80% is still 20% too short for me to rely on 100% of the time.
I think 45acp is bare bones minimal for a black bear. (better have extra mags) If I was tramping around bear country, I'd carry bear spray AND a Government 1911 with a Nowlin/Wilson .460 Roland barrel and spare mags full of .460 Roland as well. A lanyard loop with a strong cord would be a must in case I have to climb a tree in a hurry.

[Blacksmoke]

Ixnay on the tree climbing. Trees are where Black Bears go to hide. They can climb almost as fast as they can run.

Here are a few tips for walking your dog in bear country:

1. Stay in the open, away from brushy spots you cannot see into.

2. Make some kind of noise to announce your presence, talk to your dog, sing a song, chant a mantra.

3. If you spot a Black Bear stop and call your dog to you. Most dogs that are not trained hunters get a little anxious when spotting large predators and will look to their human for some guidance while standing back and barking.

3. Do not, repeat do not, take a bucket of KFC with you on the walk.

[moooose102]

WHAT! NO KFC ON OUR WALKS?! ARE YOU CRAZY!!! MAN, HOW ARE WE SUPPOSE TO ENJOY OURSELFS??! LOL ya just gotta have a sense of humor! good one blacksmoke. anyway, this is what i have decided to do. i am still carrying the 45. 2-12 round clips full of fmj ammo + 1 in the chamber. (when i buy some more bullets, i will load up 2 dozen +p fmj ammo). when i am taking the shotgun (a browning auto 5), i am putting 3 slugs in first, then 2 shotshells. it is doubtfull that i will need more that 2 shotshells in the same instant for squirrels. then as i shoot the shot shells, i just keep putting in new shotshells, keeping the slugs in the magazine. if, and really, the risk is slight, i do run across a bear, i can either shoot a warning shot with the shotshells, or rack them through (depending on the situation and range) and then, only if i have to, defend my self with the slugs. i do not now, nor have i ever, had any desire to shoot a bear for any other reason than self defense. if my funds were not short, i would buy a 500 s&w and a shoulder holster. but my funds are quite limited, so i will have to use what i have. the dog, is a half breed, that found me in the woods last year when i was scouting for deer hunting. she appears to be 1/2 pit bull, and 1/2 german short hair. she has the nose, and disposition of the short hair, and the build and looks of a pit bull. she is really a pretty good dog. but, she is a very high energy dog, she needs, and loves to run. i have on occasion, let her chase the truck through the woods. she will run @ 15 mph for over 1/2 of a mile! then she starts slowing down, but will still run for another 1/2 of a mile before giving up and just start walking. i do not know what is going to happen this year @ deer season. i certainly can not take her to the woods. maybe i can tie her to the front of the truck, and she can pull us into town(just kidding). thanx for all the advice guys. hopefully, i will not run across a bear. but if i do, i do not want to be defenceless. i can not run, or climb a tree anyway, so i pretty much am limited to standing my ground, or slowly retreating. i certainly am not above slowly retreating. in fact, it would be the first thing i tried, other than getting the dog back on the leash.

[gcmk13]

I don't know if this has been covered, but have you considered a high capacity 10mm? That's what I take into the woods with me. Barring that, a .357 magnum revolver would be the way to go, in my opinion.

I'm sure it can be done with a 9mm or a .45 ACP, but I'm not confident of how reliably it can be done with those calibers. For that matter, I'm not sure how reliably it can be done with any handgun; bear are mean and tough. A black isn't a grizzly, granted, but still...

[Rossshady120]

.454 super redhawk compact firepower or get your self a deagle, kel-tec PLR don't knowing about talking a walk with one of those. with the current economic situation i would't just buy a gun for this purpose but rather shop around and find something that you can also use it for. i don't see the point in owning a crazy pistol unless you need it for something like this or hunting ammo is just too crazy on these crazy guns. why did IMI make the desert eagle anyways it doesn't seem to be very pracital

[1911Gunslinger]

.45acp will do the job considering that the shot(s) are well placed. Personally I would suggest using a hot loaded HP like the ones from Georgia Arms 185gr HP at 1150 fps. Don't shoot lots of them unless you set your gun up with stronger recoil spring and buffer but in a self defense pinch will do a very good job on 2 or 4 legged terrorists, check all Sp and Hp ammo for function before using in self defense.

[ripcurlksm]

safe trip moose, and enjoy yourself!

[WVMountainBoy]

Well, what you have is a .45 and a 16 gauge...since that is what you have then I would just say use the hardest heaviest FMJ you can and load the 16 with 00 or slugs. Black Bear around here are usually smallish and I think that with in SD ranges a .45 would do the deal. We'd all want a cannon, but we use what we got.

[Inspector]

If you DO get a shot with the .45, then maybe three quick shots - bang, bang, bang!:)

[cornman]

I would rather have a 9mm +P for a bear than a 45. Penetration is what it is all about. The 45 is a man stopper only.

[MikePGS]

I seem to recall an article about a man emptying a Glock .40 cal into a bear that was attacking him, but I believe he had 180 grains, which typically have the bullet that penetrates particularly deep. Of course, it was in an ad by Glock (and he had to shoot it over a dozen times) so take it with a grain of salt :)

[Elmer]

I would rather have a 9mm +P for a bear than a 45. Penetration is what it is all about. The 45 is a man stopper only.

Unless you can find some hard cast swc 9mm +P, the .45 will probably penetrate far deeper.

If they're hollow point +P 9's. they won't penetrate worth a darn......

[Ben86]

No sir, .45s and 9mms penetrate to approximately the same depth. The 9mm has a smaller diameter which allows it to pass through more easily but has less weight and therefore less momentum to carry it. The .45 has a larger diameter and much more weight, which means more drag but also more momentum. They just about even out on penetration. With sometimes the .45 having a little less.

But that is assuming identical bullet design. JHP bullet design plays a larger part in penetration.

[Mike U.]

I admit I haven't read all of this long thread yet and this may have already been mentioned, but, maybe it bears repeating if it has.
If I were to find myself in bear country with only my .45 ACP (God forbid!) I'm thinking I'd like to have this load onboard:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=156
With this particular load I'd feel at least I had some semblance of a chance of making it back home and not being turned into bear scat.

[The Bushmaster]

When I go up to feed my horses I carry a .45 ACP. So far all I've found in my pasture have been turkey, deer, coyotes, someone's escaped guinea hen and stray dogs. All easily dispatched with the .45 ACP. If I thought that I might run into (and it's posible) a bear or a cougar I'd take my .30-30 instead of the .45 ACP. Just my thoughts. If I'm in "bear country" I would think a rifle in substancial calibre is needed...I hate wounded pissed off bears...

[Dogbite]

I was born and raised in Alaska, and spent a lot of time in the bush. I'M talking about months at a time in the bush. Against black bears, you might get away with a heavy loaded 45acp. I would feel a lot better with a 357, 41, or 44 mag loaded with cast bullets. I have seen 250 pound blacks and 500 pound blacks. If you come across a big blackie, you could have a problem with a 45acp. If a gun is alien to you, use spray. I would have a gun. Period. I want something that can KILL a bear. People have been mauled by bears, and before the bear made contact, they sprayed the hell out of it with a large bottle of spray, until they were out. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. I know I can stop any bear with a shotgun loaded with slugs/heavy rifle, etc. I'm not going to trust my life to a non lethal (maybe). Of course a ranger is going to give you spray advice. Many of them don't like civilians hiking around armed. My brother got attacked by a large bull moose. It came like a freight train through the trees at him. Spray would have been a joke. My family and I have lived through much of the stuff that is discussed about bears in the woods. Theory is one thing, being there is quite a bit different...

[S&Wfan]

Someone mentioned a high capacity 10mm. If a bear attacks you, he won't be circling you like Indians on the old cowboy movies . . . he'll be running at you at full speed.

Most auto shooters will be shooting so fast that they "milk" every round (milk: Prematurely yanking down on the gun trying to anticipate the recoil so as to be able to shoot faster). When you milk it, your shots will hit the dirt in front of the charging bear but you won't see it.

No, you'll get time for a shot or two off. You'd better be steady and LUCKY . . . for it is really hard to shoot a charging bear and hit him anyway unless you have the balls to wait for point-blank range. Even then, you're gonna get mauled before he bleeds out.

The only .45ACP handgun I'd consider in this role would be a .45ACP S&W revolver, loaded with heavy .451-.452 hard cast lead flat nose bullets designed for .45 Colt handguns, and handloaded HOT into .45 Auto Rim brass.

Those heavyweight flat point bullets will shoot straight through deer, end-to-end at 300 yards, and would have a pretty decent chance of killing the bear faster if your shot . . . or even shots, are true.

I wouldn't want to bet my life on it though. Strange things happen when folks shoot at animals that move!

T.

[CZF]

A recent poster on a forum told of his shot on a Blackie.
45 round failed to penetrate the skin.\\

My choice for the woods is a 10mm or .44 with the XTP
if possible.

[janobles14]

i usually dont argue with caliber choice much (.223 for deer is fine with me). but in no way is a .45 remotely good for bear. they are thicker and tougher than most animals and require some ooomph to penetrate.

your choices are much better and props for the XTP as well.

[aimbotter]

if you'r strong like these guys, just grab one of these bad boys and the bear won't get close..
http://world.guns.ru/machine/predator_minigun.jpg
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/531/Handheld_M134_minigun.jpg
hahahhahaha

[krs]

'Course, the dog could have been scared at it's first sight of a cow.

cows are formidable things from a dog's perspective, and if it was dusk the sudden quiet appearance of such a large moving mysterious and shadowy other being might litter-ally scare the crap of of the overly happy pupplike innocent that is a young dog.
Sheer terror if the cow mooo'ed.

[ZeBool]

While I do believe that .45 ACP is light for bear, I feel that it would be sufficient to ward off an attack. Black bears are thinned skinned and relatively timid, and one most certainly would not enjoy taking a 230 grain round to the chest, let alone 7 or 8. Unless of course you have a .44 Magnum, then what the hey, right? Take that!

[rcmodel]

A recent poster on a forum told of his shot on a Blackie.
45 round failed to penetrate the skin.\\That my friend, is internet BS!

1,000 to 1 odds he simply missed the bear completely!

rcmodel

[natural marksman]

We don't have bears in Australia. I've never shot at a living thing before, but I remember once I saw a documentary on tv about bears...

According to the experts, quoting from the documentary:
if you get on your tummy, cover your head with your hands and let the bear rough you up a bit - poke or jab you - he'll get the idea that you're no threat to him and that you're not worth the effort.

Just note this: if a bear is absolutely desperate for food, that is the only time he'll try to EAT a person.

Leave him alone and give him the impression that you're harmless, and he'll bugger off!

If I had to shoot a bear, I'd use a gun chambered for .30-06 like an M1 Garand. My uncle shoots kangaroos and wild pigs with a bolt-action .30-06, and I've heard the kick is tremendous! If so, it has to be powerful enough to kill a bear.

Yeah so, use the gentle leader collars - they are designed to make your dog behave and they work - and preferably carry something bigger than a .45 ACP. If not, flee from the bear, and if he catches up to you, get low and stay calm.

[Leanwolf]

NATURAL MARKSMAN - " My uncle shoots kangaroos and wild pigs with a bolt-action .30-06, and I've heard the kick is tremendous!"

N.M., whoever told you that hasn't done much shooting of .30-06 rifles. The recoil of most .30-06 rifles, including the M1 Garand (That was my issue weapon while in the U.S. Army) isn't punishing. I've no idea whatsoever how many rounds of .30-06 I've fired in many types of rifles and have no problem with them. Now moving up to the various .300 Magnums and .338 Magnums can make it hard on your shoulder, but when your shoulder begins to ache, why continue?

Ask your uncle if he'll allow you to shoot his. I'll bet you'll enjoy it.

As for Black bears not wanting to harm you but just push you around a bit, whoever made that statement in the documentary is very, very badly misinformed.

If a Black bear decides to attack you, he is coming to kill you and eat you. "Playing dead," will get you dead.

Trying to second guess the intentions of an attacking bear, Black or Griz, is sheer folly!

L.W.

[S&Wfan]

A recent poster on a forum told of his shot on a Blackie.
45 round failed to penetrate the skin.\\

My choice for the woods is a 10mm or .44 with the XTP
if possible.


I once shot a big doe with my Thompson Center Contender, in .44 Magnum. Distance? She was nearly touching the base of my 12' metal ladder stand I was in when I touched off the round. The gun barrel was between both boots. I mean, I could have JUMPED on that doe! The distance that bullet traveled was probably six or seven feet at the most!!!

The bullet? 240 grain Hornady XTP. She ran off and I was stunned. For three hours I could find no blood at all and finally gave up.

TWO WEEKS LATER another hunter on my club harvested that big doe that casually walked into a food plot about 300 yards away to begin eating. When he skinned her . . . there was my Hornady 240 grain XTP bullet!!!

It mushroomed on bone and didn't penetrate or do any real damage . . . just some mild infection around the entrance. As I said, it was just under the hide and it FELL OUT when the deer was skinned!!!

I IMMEDIATELY SWITCHED to Federal 300 grain Castcore, hard cast flat-nose lead bullets . . . and have never looked back.


I SAY THIS BECAUSE . . .

If a .44 Magnum XTP bullet fails ya at six feet on a thin-skinned, easy to kill whitetail . . . I don't think I'd want to bet my life on ANY expanding bullet from any handgun stopped a running bear at six feet . . . especially in a .45ACP caliber!

And if I had to carry a handgun for bear defense, it would be a real heavy, flat nosed hard cast lead bullet. Elmer Keith proved how good they worked decades ago!!!

T.

[BHP FAN]

I'd trust a 250 gr..45 Keith style round nose flat point hard cast lead ..45 Colt though,not ACP,unless that was just what I had on me.

[Highland Ranger]

How does the joke go? just make sure you file off the sight on the 45 so when you are done shooting and the bear stuffs the gun up your pooper it doesn't hurt as much?!

Kidding aside - 44mag at least for the big ones we see around here. My guess is they are 500lbs. I have been up close an they are significantly bigger than me.

As far as the dog goes, we have a lovable 110lb lab who is a great dog the best with kids and goes absolutely nuts like genetic enemy nuts when he sees a bear. He absolutely will charge and don't even think of holding the leash.

It would be better for both of you if you could avoid a confrontation.

When the kids and he were young, he would block them from going in the yard if there was a bear out there. Now that they are older he has definitely gone from playing defense to playing offense.

I've watched rookie cops called by folks who move here from more citified parts go chasing them with an air horn and a .40S&W . . . . bad move. The air horn often works but if it ever doesn't, I'd want to be holding more than a 40 or 45

Oh and I second the heavy cast lead recommendation. My 629 sits with 300gr lead flat nose rounds - I'd wouldn't trust a hollow point to get through their tuff hide.

[BHP FAN]

I'd say that 629 with heavy hard cast Keith style bullets would be good bear medicine.

[Dogbite]

According to the experts, quoting from the documentary:
if you get on your tummy, cover your head with your hands and let the bear rough you up a bit - poke or jab you - he'll get the idea that you're no threat to him and that you're not worth the effort.

Just note this: if a bear is absolutely desperate for food, that is the only time he'll try to EAT a person.

Leave him alone and give him the impression that you're harmless, and he'll bugger off!
------------------------------
Several people have tried this "expert" advice in Alaska. Some got huge disfiguring bites in their backs/necks legs, and were crippled for life. A much bigger percentage are now in the morgue. I remember one fellow who took ONE swipe from a large brown and it took his nose, and most of his face off. Yeah, let him "rough you up a bit".

[ericyp]

Really? Boy, growing up in N. Ontario gives me a different perspective. Most black bears up in the Kirkland Lake Ont. area are in the range of 250-400lbs for a female and up to 600lbs for a male. I would generalize and characterize most black bears I've ever seen as between 2-3 times the mass of an average human. And at this time of year, they'd have a massive, thick layer of fat and skin that would likely keep a .45acp body shot from reaching anything remotely vital.

As a kid, I used to carry a 12ga shotgun with rifled slugs when hiking/camping and so forth in black bear country.

Well, things are different in Canada. Down here in the states, our black bears average 100-200 lbs for a sow, maybe 250 or so for a boar.
A hell of a lot of men have successfully fought off black bears with hands and feet down here. Some have even killed them barehanded. A .45 is fine. You're not going up against an Abrams tank here.


DO NOT play dead for a black bear. You will DIE. Do it for a griz or brown. The guy above is quoting from a grizzly bear attack scenario.

If you are attacked by a black bear, the recommended response is just the opposite that of a grizzly attack, and you should fight back as if your life depends on it. Using a stick, rocks, fists and fingers, fight with all your might.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/852155/black_bear_vs_grizzly_bear_attacks.html

[MikePGS]

A lanyard loop with a strong cord would be a must in case I have to climb a tree in a hurry.
Whenever I hear about someone climbing a tree to avoid a bear, it brings to mind this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktHQ-Z5WJdc

[Highland Ranger]

if you get on your tummy, cover your head with your hands and let the bear rough you up a bit - poke or jab you - he'll get the idea that you're no threat to him and that you're not worth the effort.

Sounds like that expert that went to live with them with his girlfriend.

They were both eaten.

I think bears are always desperate for food.

In northwest NJ, we have seen several black bears that have to be 500 pounds. The bear issue here is political, (anti-hunters from the city) so the 200lb myth and the they won't hurt you myth are continually put forth by the press.

Luckily the school system teaches the kids bear safety - being actually responsible for the safety of people and not reckless humans must die so that that nature can live environmentalists (and they mean other humans, not themselves).

My brother shot a video with a bear walking past the hood of his Jimmy/blazer and you can see the bear over the top of the hood. Big animal. Not 200lbs.

Had one scare the crap out of me walking to the car, I was 20 feet from him when he came out of the fog. I am big, twice the size of an average male and he was MUCH bigger than me . . . . in the cold mist, his breath was shooting out in a billowing cloud MUCH bigger than a human makes. Thank God he was old and didn't feel like mixing it up.

The 200lb males are in North Carolina. The premium garbage fed bears in Northwest NJ get bigger.