[gearbox]

Y'all might remember that I was having extraction issues with my 12Ga 870 Express Magnum's new 20" DRS IC barrel.
Well, the problem was that it would not extract easily when I was testing for reliability at the indoor range. Good thing I tested, first of all. Secondly, the load was the WalMart promotional 100rd "All-Purpose" Federal #7.5 or #8 (12ga, 2&3/4"). I got an exchanged barrel, but that resulted in identical problems. So I tried different cartridges: Winchester and Remington loads, again in bird shot size. They worked fine.
So I took my shotgun to my friend's house for some skeet, blasted much clay with the 28" barrel and decided to try the 20" just for kicks. I tried the Federal and had problems. So I took the gun around back, set up a large dry stump and put a few shells of lead into it. Approx. 5 Federal "Tactical" (low-recoil) 00 buck, approx. 9 Federal "Tactical" 1oz slugs, and approx. 4 full power Federal Premium 00. No problem. The slide was slick as ever.
No problem on the watermelon either.
I had assumed that the chamber was too large and the brass was expanding excessively, but it seems to only have happened on that specific batch of Federal All-Purpose.
What are your opinions? Can I trust it as my HD pumpgun and blame the failures on the ammo?

[Dave McCracken]

There are occasional ammo/weapon incompatibilities that crop up, this sounds like one. If a load glitches in TWO barrels, it's more likely to be the load and not the weapon. Use this ammo in something else.

The Ayoob Test:

Run 200 rounds of the ammo you intend to use for "Serious" work through it. Crank it hard and fast. If the weapon makes it without a glitch, you're OK with THAT ammo and weapon.

IMO, that's a minimum criteria.

HTH...

[dport]

I'm suspicious of the Ayoob test. He sells Corbon on his website and recommends its for personnal defense. I wonder if there is a connection between that and his 200 round recommendation?

[BigG]

Gee, Mas Ayoob a possible capitalist. The horror! :eek:

[HSMITH]

A rough chamber will grab the federal ribbed hull and hold it. Check to see how rough it is, the newer production 870 chambers I have seen look like they were cut by drunken monkeys with Dremel tools, quite likely borrowed from Century Arms..............

If it is rough polish it out and all will be good.

[Al Thompson]

Nope. He's been advocating that for years. He may sell Corbon, but recommends many different brands of ammo for SD.

[dport]

I have no problem with capitalism. It is, however, the worst economic system, except for every other economic system ever tried.

Let's say I test 200 rounds of ammo brand 'a.' Everything functions well, so I buy 100 rounds for defense purposes. After a year I need more defense ammo, so I buy another 100 rounds of ammo brand 'a.' However, this time I notice as I run through the ammo that it doesn't always function properly. What I didn't know was since I purchased ammo brand 'a' last they changed (pick one) the powder, the primers, the source of the brass, the profile of the bullet, etc.

Instead of a 200 round test of a certain brand, I prefer a 20% test of a lot number. Let's say I buy 100 rounds of ammo brand 'a' lot number 1. I'd shoot 20 rounds, picked randomly, and use the rest. That way in another year when I got to buy ammo brand 'a' and they only have lot number 2 or 3, I'll just shoot 20% of that lot number. If I don't know the lot number, I'll pick 20% of the package, box, case, etc.

[dport]

Yep, Ayoob will recommend whatever ammo is currently paying for advertising in the magazine he is writing for. However, he seems to keep to the "energy dump" theory of stopping power, and we all know which ammo company is famous for their "high energy loads."

[Al Thompson]

Well, however you test, the point is to test. Ayoob first floated his thoughts back in the (IIRC) early '80's when some SD type firearms were very sensitive to the new JHP rounds.

Gearbox, if you had problems with all ammo, it would be a definite gun problem. One brand gives problems and the rest don't, it's an incompatibility issue.

Shoot some of your chosen HD load in the 870. If it runs a bunch with no problems your set.

[RussB]

OK, getting back to the question...

At my club a lot of folks run down to Wal-Mart and buy the "value packs" to shoot trap with. Some of them have had extraction "issues" with that particular ammo. The steel base expands quite a bit, and will lock up their guns...seen it in some auto loaders as well.

FWIW, Federals "Top Gun" load, with the brass-plated base seem to work fine in those same guns (my club often sells those loads to the trap shooters)

And a rough chamber sure dosen't help the cause, either.

[buzz_knox]

Yep, Ayoob will recommend whatever ammo is currently paying for advertising in the magazine he is writing for. However, he seems to keep to the "energy dump" theory of stopping power, and we all know which ammo company is famous for their "high energy loads."

Most of them, in one way or another. Some emphasize controlled energy dump along with penetration, others rapid energy dump.

By the way, I've seen Mas most often use and recommend Black Hills recently . . . and he doesn't sell it on his website.

My new 870P had only one problem with feeding or extraction when using Ranger slugs and Fed. Tac. buckshot. It locked up after firing and I had to work the action release to eject that round and feed the next. Hasn't happened since.

[Dave McCracken]

Re Ayoob....

Whether or not he pimps for any maker or in any magazine, he did come up with some of the best ideas in "Serious" gunwork since Jack Weaver and Jeff Cooper laid the groundwork.

The 200 round test is viable. Less than .5% failure rate is an acceptable risk level by my and many other folks' standards.

If that seems excessive,dport,WHAT is your criteria?

[Mannlicher]

There are many variables with ammo and shotguns. A failure may never duplicate itself, and then again, a load that 'tested' great, may fail the first time you have to depend on it. Each round is an entity unto itself, and the only guarantee that a particular round will go 'bang', is the sound it makes when it goes off. It's twn brother might be a dud.

For me, compatibility between a brand/style of shotgun round and the particular shotgun I am using, is more important than a statistically meaningless number of rounds fired successfully. I am interrested in how the round patters, and feeds. I pretty much trust that they will go off when I pull the trigger. If they don't, a quick pump puts you back in biz.



I personally have never been an Ayoob fan, but he does seem to have the experience to back up much of what he espouses. I don't care who he shills for.

[dport]

Well Dave, read my post. Test 20 percent of the lot # you are using. I think it is a more relevant test based on the variables in ammunitition manufacturing.

Acceptable failure rate for a lot? 0.00%

If you are using a home-gunsmithed 1911 with old Speer hollowpoints 200 rounds may be valid. However, QC has come a long way in both ammunition and firearm manufacturing.

I take what I read in gun rags with a grain of salt. Someone who earns a significant part of their income writing for a gun rag has and interesting dicotomy going on. They have to have some sort of "in" to get the job, so they probably are very knowledgeable about firearms. However, they also have to sell their articles to the publisher. They can't bash inferior products if they are advertisers. They are also liable to write articles that encourage you to buy more of the advertisers' products. The art, of course, is knowing which is which.

[redneck2]

but just thinkin'...(which hurts sometimes)

mebbe he sells a product because it's good

doesn't just think a product's good just cause he sells it

Seems lately that a lot of guys here are anti-capitalist. You think writers are supposed to be the end-all experts on every product available, but jump on them when manufacturers give them products to try out.

OMG :what: .....the manufacturer is BUYING HIM OFF!!!

Do you think a gun writer is gonna go out and buy one of every gun on the rack so he can do a "fair" evaluation???

I used to write the outdoor articles for the local newspaper. Took anywhere from 4 to 20 hours per article. Made a whopping $10-15 weekly. Did it more as a hobby.