Which of these two rifles for home defense carbine, with a twist?


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 09:51 PM
OK, got the home defense handgun and the shotgun locked, loaded, and stashed - check.

For a home-defense carbine for just-in-case high round counts are needed, and a little distance shooting past handgun & shotgun range, which of these two - bearing in mind that, this is a no-brainer *if* you're not considering their expense if stolen - in that case, the M1 Carbine wins out as the superior fighting weapon. But you have to also factor in, since the chosen rifle will be left outside the safe, if someone breaks into the house and steals everything not in the safe, I'm out quite a bit more with the genuine USGI M1 carbine with bayo gone:

1. M1 Carbine by Winchester, excellent condition, with bayo (all USGI), .30 carbine, semi-auto, 30+1 rounds, quick change, Market Value: $700 or more the way things are going with these. Hard to replace.

2. LSI/Rossi Puma 92, 16" bbl, .45 Colt (a little more oomph per round), lever action, 8+1 rounds, slow to reload. Not cheap, about $500 for this gun new, but easier to replace & less sentimental value.

In light of the fact that I'd probably never need a home defense gun, and even then, if I do, the handgun and shotgun will take care of 99.99% of needs - I'd probably never need this rifle as long as I live, I'm leaning toward leaving the Puma 92 out of the safe, just in case, and the M1 carbine in the safe - concur? I live in the city with a moderate-low to moderate crime rate (yet there is a home invasion reported on the news *somewhere* in the city regularly - about once every two weeks to once per month).

On the other hand, having the pig-sticker with M1 might be welcome in the event of a jam. :D

P.S. No way in heck I'm leaving the tricked AR or the XCR (when acquired) out of the safe! :p

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2TransAms
October 6, 2008, 09:55 PM
Just get a WASR. More power than an M1 carbine and not too heartbreaking if you lose it. Accurate enough to 1090 yards,and under 500 bucks to boot.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 09:56 PM
OK, but "until then" ?

Cosmoline
October 6, 2008, 09:58 PM
Why don't you just put it in a secondary secure location? I realize a safe is a PINA to get in and out of, but I've had really good results with a Knaack strongbox. It's enough to discourage theft and very quick and easy to get into with a single master lock key. You can store all kinds of other stuff in there as well.

Between the two, for HD I'd go with the M1 but either would be fine. Just remember to use HP or very soft lead on the small side for the .45 Colt. Not the heavy hardcast hunting rounds.

stubbicatt
October 6, 2008, 10:00 PM
I have a friend who, as a sheriff, was often called to "put down" rabid animals. They issued him a "war baby" M1 carbine. According to him, even with good solid hits, it took several shots to down medium sized dogs with that rifle.

Granted they are rabid, and who knows how that affects the central nervous system.

Based on his experience, I would choose something else.

gvnwst
October 6, 2008, 10:00 PM
#2. it is easier to replace, you said, and while it is slower to reload, how much must you reload with a carbine, pistol, AND shotgun? Then get a WASR.

ugaarguy
October 6, 2008, 10:00 PM
But you have to also factor in, since the chosen rifle will be left outside the safe, if someone breaks into the house and steals everything not in the safe, I'm out quite a bit more with the genuine USGI M1 carbine with bayo gone:
Leave it in the safe unless you or another responsible family member are home. If you must leave one out, leave the cheaper and still in production lever gun out.

RockyMtnTactical
October 6, 2008, 10:02 PM
Get an AR15 for home defense.

retgarr
October 6, 2008, 10:03 PM
I'd say keep both rifles in the safe. Your handgun and shotgun should be fine for home defense. If you are engaging rifle range targets you probably have the time to pull one out of the safe..

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 10:04 PM
RMT, check out the very last sentence ("PS") in my original post. :p

Guys, the deal is, frankly I'm too lazy to move the gun into the safe when I go to work, and then back out again in the evening when I get home - who's got time for that? I've got posts to be making on THR! So we're talking about a rifle left out all the time, which would be far more vulnerable to theft & fire. But I think I'll run with the .45 colt lever and thanks, Cos, yes with light & fast, soft lead loads.

I'd say keep both rifles in the safe. Your handgun and shotgun should be fine for home defense. If you are engaging rifle range targets you probably have the time to pull one out of the safe..

And then, this is an excellent point, too. :)

paintballdude902
October 6, 2008, 10:06 PM
id say buya cheap non usgi carbine or a ruger pc40 carbine or the marlin camp carbine

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 10:06 PM
PBD902: Good advice, but as I said above:

OK, but "until then" ?

PALIN-NUGENT 2012 (with R. Paul as Attorney General or Chief of Staff) :p :neener:

janobles14
October 6, 2008, 10:12 PM
so are we counting on this thing being stolen? (and by "stolen" i mean that if it is then you wont fall over from heartbreak) if its not will it be used for fun?

if gonna be stolen:

1. used mini 14
2. hi point .40 carbine (actually quite reliable!)

if not gonna be stolen or used for other stuff:

1. ar 15
2. M1 carbine (GI or other)

Squeaky Duck
October 6, 2008, 10:22 PM
Wouldn't a 12ga shotgun with 00 buckshot be better and a lot more affordable for home defense?

Cosmoline
October 6, 2008, 10:22 PM
I reiterate, if you think it's going to be stolen DO NOT LEAVE IT OUT. Get a strongbox!

2TransAms
October 6, 2008, 10:23 PM
Just get a WASR. More power than an M1 carbine and not too heartbreaking if you lose it. Accurate enough to 1090 yards,and under 500 bucks to boot.

Ok, but "until then"?

Sorry, I didn't realize you already owned both. In which case, lock them both up if you're worried about thievery. I don't think you're gonna bolt out of bed and need immediate rifle firepower.

And make that 100 yards,not 1090.

spyder1911
October 6, 2008, 10:30 PM
Put your rifles in the safe and just use the shotgun. Why would you ever need to take a shot over 50 yards for SD?

Even if you want the ability to reach out and touch someone at 100 yards, a shotgun with slugs would be fine.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 10:36 PM
janobles and squeakyduck, frankly, you guys are just not following the program here....

Prior to your posts, I already TWICE corrected people for offering a suggestion other than what the choice is limited here to: exactly two rifles, no more or less. Or neither. But not something altogether different.

Prior to your posts, I already TWICE explained why an AR is not possible. Plus see above. So at least four times above your posts (4 times in just 12 total posts, mind you, janobles), I gave reasons why an AR is not an acceptable choice for my very specific question. Please, folks, READ the thread before posting, and if you cannot comprehend it, please refrain. Thank you.

I reiterate, if you think it's going to be stolen DO NOT LEAVE IT OUT. Get a strongbox!

Cosmoline, you misunderstand. I don't "think" it's going to be stolen. If I did, I certainly wouldn't leave it out. No one ever KNOWS something will be stolen. If they did, they'd take measures against it. I'm asking you to help me weigh out the risk/benefit analysis, in light of all the facts. I don't need a strongbox - I have a safe, which is better than a strongbox. I *could* put the rifle into and out of the safe each day, but as I explained above, I don't have the time/energy to do so (laziness, essentially). A strongbox takes just as much time to put something into and out of each day, but is inferior (less secure) anyway. Anyhoo..... :uhoh:

Girodin
October 6, 2008, 11:15 PM
I don't have the time/energy to do so

Your safe must be MUCH more difficult and time consuming to open that mine. Mine requires about 30 seconds and a walk down stairs.

Is it really that hard to open and close a safe twice a day?

Further what long range HD shots are you really going to need to take?

I would be more worried about leaving my guns not locked up than about a shotgun and rifle being inadequate for home defense.

I know that is not the answer to your question that you want but I think it is worth saying.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 6, 2008, 11:18 PM
Further what long range HD shots are you really going to need to take?

This is a good point, as I noted, and a viable option (keep them both in the safe - you won't need them).

Is it really that hard to open and close a safe twice a day?

Yes. Yes, it definitely is - most days in my life. :) I've got two safes - one is pretty quick and one is much slower (key) - the slow one is in my bedroom, so that'd be the one that it goes in and out of - a bit time-consuming.

Mike U.
October 7, 2008, 05:19 AM
delete.

Mike U.
October 7, 2008, 05:21 AM
Delete again.

Mike U.
October 7, 2008, 05:22 AM
I was going to suggest the one you picked. I think lever guns are just plain fun to shoot and with the .45 Colt option your making you have a LARGE power range of rounds to work with.
You can have softer recoil range rounds and you can also have full bore +P rounds capable of taking down practically anything that walks on this continent.



Edited to add:

Don't ask me happened with all these extra posts. I just hit the reply button on this, my original message, and was thrown off into white screen La-la land. I came back and tried to write the post again and suddenly my post showed up and it freakin' multiplied. Geez!

Mike U.
October 7, 2008, 05:31 AM
Delete yet again! ARRRGGHHHH! Stoopid frickin' frazin' 'dumbass operated computer!

barry960
October 7, 2008, 06:02 AM
I like the idea of something along the lines of a Marlin camp 9 or 45, or one of the Ruger pistol caliber carbines. In answer to this posting though, I'd go with the lever .45, since that's already the case with me. I have a Winchester model 94 .45 that is readily available, and my more expensive, easier to reload carbines like my HK 94 and AR 15 and secured and would take longer to get to.

You didn't make it clear whether you already own the two carbines you are considering, or planning on purchasing the one that you think is the better choice. I guess your reply:"OK, but "until then" ?" in regards to the suggestion of getting a WASR answered that, by my deductive reasoning, but there's no reason to get too frustrated with people's suggestions. Why not just let people go where they like with the topic, and ignore the replies that are too off tangent for you?

B.D. Turner
October 7, 2008, 06:55 AM
For a home-defense carbine for just-in-case high round counts are needed,
Brother your going to have to run what ya brung. If only life were so simple. No disrespect but we just don't have that clear a picture of how something is going to unfold. I break it down like this given an option I grab a shotgun during hours of darkness and a rifle during the day. I answer the door with a handgun.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 07:00 AM
Nothin' wrong with a short little carbine in .45 Colt for HD. Georgia Arms offers a "medium" sorta load with 260-grain HP that might be dandy for your HD needs.

You could consider a chain with a cable lock attached. 15 seconds to secure or release. Wouldn't be terribly hard to remove with tools, but no-one could just walk in, grab your stuff, and bolt.

John

rfurtkamp
October 7, 2008, 07:48 AM
If you're worried about "just in case" high round counts are needed, lever gun or shotgun is an awful choice IMO.

Both require two hands to cycle and operate with any degree of proficiency.

M1 wins given the two choices.

"Just in case" high round counts are needed would indicate (a) detachable box mag (b) semi-auto (c) as handy as possible for indoor/outdoor use, preferrably something you can theoretically shoot/hold/operate with one hand if possible.

I don't want to think about using a lever gun at full extension while doing a corner and having to cycle etc.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 03:28 PM
Not necessarily. It would help if we knew where the poster lived. I'd take a strong .45 Colt over an M1 Carbine any day if large animals could potentially be the threat.

jordan1948
October 7, 2008, 03:33 PM
Well given the 2 choices I'd take the M1 carbine but if I didn't want to rely on a shotgun and a handgun for home defense I'd just try to get something cheap and reliable like a hi-point 9mm, ugly yes but all the BG's gonna know is it's a gun and it's in your hands.

Cosmoline
October 7, 2008, 03:45 PM
I don't have the time/energy to do so (laziness, essentially). A strongbox takes just as much time to put something into and out of each day, but is inferior (less secure) anyway

It takes no more time than opening a locked door. Most gun safes take considerably more time since they have a combination lock. I've found the strong box to be extremely easy and convenient. You can mount a go-to carbine on the underside of the lid and it's right there when you open the box up. That's more convenient than a safe and more secure than leaving firearms laying around. It also resolves your concerns.

Snapping Twig
October 7, 2008, 03:52 PM
I'm going to go aganst the grain here - how unusual... ;)

My personal experience shows me that a rifle, even a carbine, is too long to use in a house with hallways and small spaces. Short shotguns with a pistol grip - OK, but other than that, not so much.

A 1911 with night sights is the cat's patute IMO. Any large bore non magnum SA semi auto or a similar DA/SA revolver works for me.

gunNoob
October 7, 2008, 03:55 PM
I have a WASR :)

rondog
October 7, 2008, 07:33 PM
I'll just keep my suggestion to myself, I don't wanna get snapped at.....

Kind of Blued
October 7, 2008, 07:47 PM
Is this shotgun an O/U? Is your handgun a Thompson Center?

Five to 10 rounds of 00 Buck and seven to 20 rounds of 9mm-.45ACP should do just fine.

Figure out how to get them both into action quickly, practice with them, and those two will be at least buy you enough time to get back to the safe to prepare for the rest of the zombies.

Let me know if I'm missing something here. Do you want to retire the shotgun from home defense duties in favor of a rifle? If not, how are you going to clear your house carrying two long guns and a handgun?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 8, 2008, 01:18 PM
Kind of Blued: Good questions, all:


Is this shotgun an O/U? Is your handgun a Thompson Center?

Rem 870 clone pump 12 ga with 6+1 and a cheekpad holding 6 more.

Five to 10 rounds of 00 Buck and seven to 20 rounds of 9mm-.45ACP should do just fine.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Due to your response and many similar ones, I've decided to keep all rifles in the safe and just leave the handgun and shotgun out.

Figure out how to get them both into action quickly, practice with them, and those two will be at least buy you enough time to get back to the safe to prepare for the rest of the zombies.

Yep, good advice.

Let me know if I'm missing something here. Do you want to retire the shotgun from home defense duties in favor of a rifle? If not, how are you going to clear your house carrying two long guns and a handgun?

No, I wouldn't be retiring/substituting or carrying all of them. Just using: (a) handgun for house clearing, (b) Shotgun for sit and wait while dialing 911, and (c) rifle for some random as-yet-unforeseen-by-me need to go outdoors and shoot long-distance (would probably never ever happen, so....)

dubious
October 14, 2008, 02:53 AM
Hmmmm... both the m1 and 1894 are great carry rifles, no doubt. I think they both fill the same niche. The m1 has a higher ammo capacity and is semi auto... while 1894 is no slacker.

That said, you really should be locking up your guns when you're out. It's your responsibility as a gun owner. If you don't lock up your guns when you're out you're making a case for the gun banners. Don't be lazy... You need to be a role model here. Besides, what if someone DOES steal your gun (with your fingerprints) and proceeds to rob or even kill somebody? You may well get arrested for murder. Even if you win the case, you'll still be BROKE from the legal expense.
:eek:

janobles14
October 14, 2008, 03:39 AM
sauceboy: so of all the posts before mine that didnt "answer" your question you pick mine and one other to rail on? ooooook. of course you may have done so on page 2 but again i didnt read them all. so get an ar or mini 14. or dont.

Girodin
October 14, 2008, 03:47 AM
My personal experience shows me that a rifle, even a carbine, is too long to use in a house with hallways and small spaces.

this is one of the reasons I've come to really like my bullpups. If I ever get a suppressor I may shift away from my twelve gauge to one of my bullpups. They are compact and quick handling. They can be fired with one hand accurately and easily, this means the other hand is free for a variety of tasks that may arise. They still offer the advatages of a long gun over a pistol, more firepower and better accuracy. I hope to run one through a carbine corse soon in order to improve my use of it and prove its reliability.

The main drawback in my mind to the bullpup is its horrible trigger but this isn't much of a concern at HD distances.

lefteyedom
October 14, 2008, 03:58 AM
What you need is a Marlin Camp rifle in 45 acp.

Here is a nice little link with more info.

http://members.aol.com/fourn6/camp9.html

JD0608
October 14, 2008, 04:33 AM
the biggest problem i see with leaving a gun out all the time is ... what if you come home and the guy robbing your house shoots your ass with the gun that was such a hassle to put in the safe before you left home..

NWCP
October 14, 2008, 04:37 AM
For home defense your shotgun and handgun are more than adequate. As for a rifle when would you really be needing one as a 'home defense' weapon? Within the confines of your home a rifle can be awkward to use and will penetrate most interior and exterior walls posing possible danger to your own family and neighbors as well. Shooting a bad guy at 50 yards, or more, would be considered hunting rather than self defense in most courts. That aside, your .45 lever gun uses a more effective round than the M1 IMHO. The only carbine I would consider using inside my own home would be my HK USC .45ACP. It's a short barreled semi that uses a great pistol round. Otherwise it's the 8 shot Mossberg 12GA, and my 15 round HK USP 9mm.

Calhoun321
October 14, 2008, 09:36 AM
There is no point having more than 2 arms out. Keep the handgun and either a rifle or shotgun. If you like having the shotgun out, but want more range, keep some slugs out (say in a cheek pad or side saddle). This would keep you in the fight out to 100 yards, which is about the same distance these carbines would be good for.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 14, 2008, 09:42 AM
That said, you really should be locking up your guns when you're out. It's your responsibility as a gun owner.

Hmm, I may start a thread on that. I don't see it as automatic negligence to not lock up a gun when I'm the only human that lives here and my front door is locked when I'm gone. But maybe I'm in the minority in that view....

Calhoun, that's exactly what I'm thinking now, and yes, I have 3 slugs in the sidesaddle on the buttstock of the shotgun. Both the rifles are staying in the safe.

Thanks everyone.

Mike U.
October 14, 2008, 02:27 PM
PremiumSauces,

I gather you've never been burgled before.
You typical house/apartment is sooo easy to break into you'd likely be shocked if you see it done by someone who knows what they are doing. A burglar finding a gun is a burglar who thinks he's hit a minor mother-lode. He then begins the search for more firearms as even the village idiot burglar knows where there is one gun there's likely to be more just waiting to be turned into cold, hard cash. How would you feel if one of your stolen guns killed a cop or ended up being used in a mass school shooting?
I'll tell you how your local DA will feel. He/she will feel like getting some payback for the surviving loved ones and you are now the target. And, let's not forget about all of those surviving loved ones who will lawyer up and take everything you own in court.

RKBA is deadly serious business. You as a gun owner have a huge responsibility to keep your firearms out of the hands of those who want to make your arms THEIR firearms.

Laziness is the burglar's friend. Lock up your guns. Lock up your valuables if you intend to keep them. Every single victim of burglary will tell you "yeah, I know it happens, I just didn't think it would happen to me".

ndh87
October 14, 2008, 02:45 PM
The 45 Colt. its a much bigger round, lever guns are *generally* less likely to jam and it costs less if you have to replace it.

mljdeckard
October 14, 2008, 02:46 PM
For years now, my regular HD has been my 870 loaded with #4 buck as my primary, my M-1 carbine as backup/wife's primary. We keep it with two 15 rd mags in a pouch on the butt. I would very much like to acquire a second one to use, as this one is a bit of a family heirloom. The .45 Colt might well have better ballistics than an M-1, but I'm not into lever guns, the carbine performs flawlessly, and if you think about it, it's really a near equivalent of a .357 when it comes out of the longer barrel. My dad has killed three mule deer with it. It is the perfect size for my wife to handle comfortably.

If I ever use an AR for HD, it will be with dedicated ammo. (Hornady TAP.) I will never use a handgun if I have time to grab a long gun.

texas bulldog
October 14, 2008, 03:49 PM
premiumsauces,

i know it's not what you want to hear, but i gotta agree with the folks saying you should go ahead and put 'em in the safe when you leave. i too have a lazy streak (just ask my wife...), but i still find the energy to take a gun out when i get home and put it back when i leave for work.

as to the original question, i think you'll be well-served with just the shotgun and handgun. that's plenty of firepower for just one person.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 14, 2008, 05:59 PM
I gather you've never been burgled before.
You typical house/apartment is sooo easy to break into you'd likely be shocked if you see it done by someone who knows what they are doing. A burglar finding a gun is a burglar who thinks he's hit a minor mother-lode. He then begins the search for more firearms as even the village idiot burglar knows where there is one gun there's likely to be more just waiting to be turned into cold, hard cash. How would you feel if one of your stolen guns killed a cop or ended up being used in a mass school shooting?
I'll tell you how your local DA will feel. He/she will feel like getting some payback for the surviving loved ones and you are now the target. And, let's not forget about all of those surviving loved ones who will lawyer up and take everything you own in court.

RKBA is deadly serious business. You as a gun owner have a huge responsibility to keep your firearms out of the hands of those who want to make your arms THEIR firearms.

Laziness is the burglar's friend. Lock up your guns. Lock up your valuables if you intend to keep them. Every single victim of burglary will tell you "yeah, I know it happens, I just didn't think it would happen to me".

Hmm, now that's a real eye-opener, and perhaps you are right. No I've not ever been burgled. I *DO* have these security bars on the doors and windows over and above normal locks & deadbolts, as a bit of extra deterrence, but I gather that a crook would probably make quick work of those, too, if he wanted to.

Maybe I should lock every last gun into one of the safes before leaving, particularly the ones I keep fully loaded like the home defense guns. I certainly wouldn't want to get shot by one of my own guns upon arriving home to catch a burglar in the act. I will say that of my two larger safes, one is pretty easy to get into/out of, with it's keypad lock. I should probably get another one like that for the bedroom, to make it easier to get in/out of and facilitate this and overcome the laziness. These "cheapies" with the keypad are only $600 at Sam's, so I could swing that within a month or two - I'll look into it. Anyone else have an opinion as to whether it's "automatically" negligent to leave out a loaded gun in a house in a fairly low crime-rate area, when the only person living in the house is the adult gun-owner? This definitely deserves a thread of its own with a poll. :p

JShirley
October 14, 2008, 08:18 PM
Within the confines of your home a rifle can be awkward to use and will penetrate most interior and exterior walls posing possible danger to your own family and neighbors as well.

Baloney. I would let this stand, except some other inexperienced person may read and believe it. Good, rapidly expanding rifle ammunition poses less threat of shoot-through than 00 buck.

sinistr
October 14, 2008, 10:44 PM
i have to agree with the other posters about keeping your firearms locked up.if your worried enough about their dollar value,then you aready pretty much agree theft could happen.then all this fire power you left out , loaded with high quality ammo ...is in the hands of some very unsaviery people. i too would feel better with a shotgun next to me, but i make do with a pistol for just this reason.i go some bigger stuff ready,its just in my safe:D

lefteyedom
October 15, 2008, 10:37 PM
OK you Walter Mitty's, heres the real deal.

Use one weapon that you are totally comfortable with. When the stress levels are super high you want simple. Keep It Simple SIR K>I>S>S>.

12 gauge pump, 20" barrel with a screw-in full choke and load with 6 shot, will kill anything you will find in you house. Forget the Hollywood shotgun spread BS. 6 shot threw a full choke inside a house hit like a stack of nickles.

Your lawyer will be able to tell the jury that you did not mean to kill anyone that is why you only used bird shot. You might win the civil law suit and get to keep all the of rest of the weapons in you gun safe.

OR use a simple none Magnum revolver such as a 38 special 44 special with a 4" barrel or a Glock.

Leave all the other high tech weapons for the firing range.

Browning
October 15, 2008, 10:58 PM
I guess the LSI/Rossi Puma 92, 16" bbl, .45 Colt lever action would be my pick out of the two options.

Although I have several detachable mag semi-auto rifles I kind of do the same thing and leave an SKS out just because it's cheap and easy to replace and it works. Besides, I don't think you'd need more than a round or two of .45 LC to put them down anyway.

Girodin
October 16, 2008, 04:03 AM
Your lawyer will be able to tell the jury that you did not mean to kill anyone that is why you only used bird shot.

Umm most places firing a shotgun at some one is considered using lethal force irrespective of the shot size involved. I'm not sure that a jury of your peers is really going to differentiate on shot size. A lawyer spinning things could make birdshot sound just as malicious as buckshot. It maybe BS but that isn't what will matter.

Given that things can be spun not matter what the facts and also given that I live in a state with a castle law and some of the best self defense and home defense laws in the country I will use what I think is most prudent and effective for self defense. If it a good shoot it is a good shoot. In other states this might be more of a concern.

You might win the civil law suit and get to keep all the of rest of the weapons in you gun safe.


I'm glad I live in a state where people (or their next of kin) cannot sue for injuries recieved during the commision of a felony.

OR use a simple none Magnum revolver such as a 38 special 44 special with a 4" barrel or a Glock.

Leave all the other high tech weapons for the firing range.


So a 1911 is high tech and a glock isn't? I'm really interested to know the reasoning behind your list of "acceptable" HD pistols.

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