.30 Carbine versus bear?


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Yoda
October 7, 2008, 10:40 AM
A year of so ago, I gave my daughter in Wyoming and her husband a .30 Carbine. She recently called me and said that she "loves it, it's so accurate!" I think that means she can hit paper with it.

Anyway, she called again and said that she goes hunting with her husband, and when she's in camp, she's afraid of bears, so she keeps the Carbine handy.

I haven't discouraged her on this. I figure that the .30 Carbine is more powerful than any handgun, and with the longer sight radius, she can start engaging bears at longer ranges than she could with a handgun. Of course, a 15 or 30 round magazine is a big plus, too,

I think the only downsides are that a Carbine isn't as maneuverable during close-in engagements as a handgun, and worse, she'll probably be shooting ball.

I wonder what the concensus is regarding .30 carbine versus Black Bear, or worse, Grizzley.

- - - Yoda

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Tommygunn
October 7, 2008, 10:51 AM
A lot of people think the .30 Carbine is a handgun round. Yes, there are handguns chambered for it. There are handguns chambered in .30-30 and .45-70 too.
The carbine round is an intermediate powered rifle round albeit on the low end of the range.
It is qute maneuverable in close quarters, and ball ammo isn't the best stopper; due to the design of the carbine it may or may not feed softnose or hollowpoint rounds reliably.
Having said that; were I to need a gun for a bear, my M-1 Carbine would NOT be the gun I would choose. Wounded animals are dangerous.
"Use enough gun." Seriously, it's an old saying, for a reason.

ashtxsniper
October 7, 2008, 10:53 AM
Hit it enough times and the carbine will work. Have her practice controlled rapid fire.

OAKVILLE SHOOTER
October 7, 2008, 10:54 AM
Well, I guess it is better than nothing, but I would prefer something bigger if it was me.

thunder173
October 7, 2008, 10:55 AM
She might consider ankle bells and pepper spray. (The bells for the bear to find her,..and the pepper spray for seasoning.) Seriously,..the .30 Carbine is in my opinion waaayyy to light of a round for any bear,...regardless of the number of rounds she has. If it's all you've got,...it's all you've got,....but as a shooter of 50 years,...a hunter and a dad,...I'd dissuade her from that tract,...and strongly urge my son-in-law to get her into something more adequate for the job at hand. A 30/30 would be about as low as I'd personally go for blacks,..and even that's light in my opinion,....I live where we have a lot of blacks,...and I generally carry either a Ruger SBH in .44 Magnum on my hip,....or a Winchester 94 Trapper in .44 in my hands when kicking around in their back yards.

ZeSpectre
October 7, 2008, 10:56 AM
have a 30 round magazine in it.

Jst1mr
October 7, 2008, 11:03 AM
FWIW, there are handguns out there that eclipse the .30 carbine in energy by 1.5 -2X...'course, you gotta be able to shoot 'em. Short, compact, easy to handle bear gun? Sounds like any of the big .45 lever guns....45-70, ,450 Marlin, etc.

jnyork
October 7, 2008, 11:09 AM
"How can you tell grizzly bear scat?" " It's full of ankle bells" :D:D

15 or 30 rounds of .30 carbine hits to the boiler room would certainly beat 5 rounds of .300 Mangle'em that miss. She should shoot what she can hit with.

Fisherman_48768
October 7, 2008, 11:15 AM
Several years ago I had a german shepard get into the chicken pen, 3 hits from a 30 carbine to the shoulder/chest from about 15 yds only drove the dog away. BTW I was using soft points. I haven't taken this gun out of the safe since. FWIW: the 25-06 finished the job the next day.

19-3Ben
October 7, 2008, 11:24 AM
Better for her to have a gun that she is comfortable with and loves to shoot than a more powerful gun that she won't shoot.

That being said, a Marlin 1894c loaded up with 9 rounds of Doube Tap's 180gr. .357mag loads would be a tremendous step up in power and probably keep things in the range of acceptable recoil and light weight that she likes.

Ol` Joe
October 7, 2008, 11:50 AM
How many shots do some of you think a bear is going to let one take at him? You would likely be lucky to get 2-3 shots off at a attacking bear and probably not that many. The idea of a mag full of 30 carbine ammo maybe on target stopping a bear isn`t very likely and a bad hit is a bad hit no matter how many Xs you do it. The bear may die, but so could you if it took the animal more then a few seconds kick the bucket.
I`d go with getting her a bigger gun, and getting her to practice, and knowing where to shoot. A good hit to the brain or spine will be worth a dozen to the body if the bear is close.

M1911
October 7, 2008, 12:21 PM
I think it would be enough for a black bear. But not for Mr. Griz.

Vern Humphrey
October 7, 2008, 12:24 PM
I think the only downsides are that a Carbine isn't as maneuverable during close-in engagements as a handgun
There is no future in having close-in engagements with bears.

Colt46
October 7, 2008, 12:28 PM
A lot of WWII anedotes are about the lack of performance against enemies when compared to the .30-06. Imagine what kind of effect it would have on a larger, meaner, heavier framed animal than a german soldier.
Serious defense against toothy, fangy critters it isn't. A .357 magnum carbine would be far more capable against bears.

greg531mi
October 7, 2008, 12:32 PM
Several years ago I had a german shepard get into the chicken pen, 3 hits from a 30 carbine to the shoulder/chest from about 15 yds only drove the dog away. BTW I was using soft points. I haven't taken this gun out of the safe since. FWIW: the 25-06 finished the job the next day.
__________________


That was one tough Puppy!!!

Tommygunn
October 7, 2008, 12:34 PM
A lot of WWII anecdotes about carbine lack of power were traced to poor marksmanship, or using the carbine at distances too great for it to be effective.
UP CLOSE it is effective against human targets. You do atually have to HIT the target to effect it, though.

But the posters who are telling you to get a more powerful round are still right. Bears are tougher than humans.

texfed
October 7, 2008, 12:35 PM
Shot placement! You can kill a bear with a .22! Would I want to try..NO! Ideal bear gun....I don't think there is any!
My take: If you come across one and he/she looks po'd ...run, once you shoot him, he will really be po'd and your toast!
Think about it....middle of nowhere, something up close and personal that looks like a fuzzy truck, with world class teeth and claws......you can feel the stress, when you figure it's lunch time and your in the Arby's bag! Good luck, with that, on a killing shot!:eek:

Best thing when your in bear country is keep on a constant vigil for bear sign and when you find some ...go the other way....It owns the woods , not you!:)

Been there , done that!:D

thunder173
October 7, 2008, 12:41 PM
+1 on Vern's comment. If they are very close,...you're gonna lose. Period.

I have always held that a bear 50 feet or more away from me,...that's going in any other direction but toward me,...will likely live to see another day. ANYTHING closer,...or ANY sign of aggression if getting that close,...I consider that as TOO close,..and intend to deal with the situation BEFORE they can get any closer,.....IF I can,....

Bear are beautiful creatures to watch,...at SAFE a distance. Even the lowly black bear can be extremely fast,...and extremely dangerous in bad situations. A single round,...or even multiple hits if you could shoot that fast, ....with a round that would take down a man effectively,...may not take down a bear,...especially one hauling butt to get a chunk of your butt before it dies. If anyone is willing to shoot a black bear close up with anything less than a cannon is just, ?@#%!...well,...just let me know how that works out for ya. As for me,...I'll err on the side of being careful,...and pass on that opportunity if given the choice.

Like one of the other poster's said,..."get a bigger gun"......

Cosmoline
October 7, 2008, 12:43 PM
The .30 carbine is a fine, underrated round. But it fires a small bullet with very low sectional density. It's better than some things but for the same weight and handy size a .44 mag levergun firing heavy hardcast slugs would be much more useful. Even black bear would warrant more than a .30 carbine.

It may not kill it in the first 5 shots, but it will do it better than a .357 will.

I think you have a very strange idea of DLP shootings. The vast majority of times your first shot had better work. I know of some large bear taken with AR's in .223 by native hunters, but I remain very skeptical about whether the animals in question were actually presenting a threat. There's a tradition of giving the bruins a "belly ache" with an underpowered round if they get too close to a village. Plus those guys kill for a living. For the rest of us it's not the best idea to go with an underpowered semiauto.

Also, you need to be sure you understand when you are permitted to fire. Having a set "policy" of shooting any bear inside of fifty feet is nonsense. You have to understand the circumstances and know a bit about bear language and behavior. I've been that close to fishing brown bears that could have cared less about me. As long as I didn't try to grab salmon in front of them I could have done anything I wanted. And I've nearly tripped over small black bear sows on local trails. That size black bear, esp. females, present no danger to any full grown human. Black bear sows do not defend their cubs like the brown ones do. You also need to know the local bear population and what constitutes a threat. In some areas with no brown bear the black bear get enormous and can be quite aggressive. Here they are not on the top of the food chain and tend to be less of a threat.

Unless SAMMI re-upped the .357mag.. The .30 carbine using a 110grain bullet has 880 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. That dwarfs the .357 mag.

Not out of a carbine. Plus, you can load the .357 with hardcast 180's and 200 grain slugs that would never function in a .30 carbine. That's the size and type of bullet you need. Speed and ft. lbs. are not as important. No bear is stopped with ft. lbs.

highlander 5
October 7, 2008, 12:50 PM
30 carbine vs bear bear wins every time. Does Remington make a pump in 243 win? That would be a little more useful than a 30 carbine.

Vern Humphrey
October 7, 2008, 12:53 PM
I was issued an M2 Carbine (selective fire version of the M1) as an adviser my first tour in Viet Nam. It got wrapped around a tree, and from then on I carried a Garand I bummed from the ARVN.

foghornl
October 7, 2008, 01:30 PM
Only if shooting the .30 Carbine round in something belt-fed....

geologist
October 7, 2008, 01:41 PM
Your daughter would be much better off with a 30-30 carbine. They don't recoil much, are handy around camp, have better choices in ammo and hit a lot harder than a .30 Carbine. A Marlin 1895 in 45-70 or 450 Marlin would be an even better chice.

Old Grump
October 7, 2008, 01:43 PM
Carbine length rifle barrel with 30 Carbine factory loads drive 110 grain RN bullets at a muzzle velocity of 1,990 fps. Muzzle energy is 977 ft. lbs. At 100 yards the little bullet is traveling at 1,567 fps and still has 600 ft. lbs. of energy. It is a self-defense and small predator cartridge when expanding bullets are used but not a large game load.

The standard 30-30 150 grain factory loads from the major ammo companies have a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2,390 fps and 1,902 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. More than double than the 30 carbine.

Factory 357 magnum loads average a muzzle velocity of 1450 fps for the 125 grain JHP with 583 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. For the 140 grain JHP the MV is 1360 fps and the ME is 575 ft. lbs. For the 158 grain JHP the MV is 1235 fps and the ME is 535 ft. lbs. These figures are all for a 4" revolver barrel. Not a real bad gun to handle but not comfortable for a lot of people, especially if they aren't handgun shooters.

In the 1950's the .44 Magnum factory round had a 240-grain bullet with a published velocity of 1400 fps and a muzzle energy of more than 1200 ft-lbs. Modern loads like I shoot are a bit friskier but most people can't handle them and I shot 45 ACP and 357 a lot of years before I got comfortable with it.

Just my 2 cents but I would recommend a 30-30 as a gun more up to the job that she can still handle with relative ease and teach her to not be so spooked by bears. Be aware, be careful, but don't get too excited if you see one. Bears are neat, enjoy the show and they will generally head off on their own to find someplace less crowded. Most of the whole being in the woods scene is being able to see and enjoy the wildlife and I treasure it all, skunks not so much, don't ask.

swampshooter
October 7, 2008, 01:46 PM
Having taken a few black bears i have to go along with Cosmoline. But as it's more likely a two legged predator will be the threat, the .30 carbine is probably O.K.

jackdanson
October 7, 2008, 02:15 PM
Several years ago I had a german shepard get into the chicken pen, 3 hits from a 30 carbine to the shoulder/chest from about 15 yds only drove the dog away. BTW I was using soft points. I haven't taken this gun out of the safe since. FWIW: the 25-06 finished the job the next day.

Good first hand info. My want of a .30 carbine has also decreased since I started reading first hand ww2 accounts of rifles/battles. Long story short a german with a .30 carbine hit can still kill you, I'd guess a bear could do the same or better.

Still it is better than nothing at all, and it would also keep the 2 legged predators at bay.

Id take a .30 carbine and a 30 rounder over any pistol or lever gun any day I'd rather have a .30-30 lever gun myself. A lot more oomph.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 02:30 PM
If she's comfortable with the little carbine, perhaps a nice Ruger .44 Carbine could be found.

KBintheSLC
October 7, 2008, 02:35 PM
How many shots do some of you think a bear is going to let one take at him? You would likely be lucky to get 2-3 shots off at a attacking bear and probably not that many.

This is true. Bears are extremely fast and powerful animals. They can charge at over 30 mph. In the thick of the woods, that comes at you very, very fast. If you have time to fire off more than a quick double tap, you would be lucky.

That being said, I would rather have a heavier bullet than the average 110gr 30 Carbine. Though the 30 Carbine may have more energy than say a 200gr 10mm Auto. The 200gr pistol round will likely penetrate much deeper. When it comes to bears, penetration is key. You need over 18" worth to be on the safe side.

If you are concerned for her safety in the woods, you might urge her to invest in a bear-worthy sidearm.

barnetmill
October 7, 2008, 02:36 PM
I would suggest relative to a hunting camp with checking with state regulations to see if it is alright to have a cartridge of less than 2 inches that is fired in semiautomatic rifle with a 15 round clip.

The carbine is the best choice for the lady. She is familiar with it and has confidence in it. A charging bear, particularly in the case of grizzly are sometimes not very caliber sensitive. That is they can soak up a lot of lead regardless of the caliber if you did not hit the central nervous system or break some large bones. The carbine is capable of penetrating the skull and the semiauto with 15 round or more in a magazine gives you a better chance as long as you do not spray and pray. While sitting a camp, it is rare to be charged by a bear. The only thing normally to bring a bear would be food or that you have camped on a trail that it normally uses. Yelling and making noise would likely drive it off. I assume that we are not talking about polar bears which are a different story.

For myself I would pick a shortbarreled M14. Heck an old time BAR would be perfect if you could arrange one.

B.D. Turner
October 7, 2008, 02:37 PM
Given a choice I would go with something else. Sure the bear can be killed with a .22 yadda yadda yadda....with good shot placement....Yadda yadda.. If a bear is on your butt keeping a cool head is good advise but in the real world only a few professionals are going to have that skill. I would opt for something that would do the most damage the quickest. Benelli super 90 loaded with slugs would be a much better choice.

jordan1948
October 7, 2008, 02:38 PM
Imagine what kind of effect it would have on a larger, meaner, heavier framed animal than a german soldier. Is there such a thing?? As for whether or not the carbine is enough to stop a bear I'm not completely sure but I will say it would be better than nothing.

B.D. Turner
October 7, 2008, 02:39 PM
Professional as in Craig Boddington or Jim Shokey. I do not believe either of these men would try a stunt of this kind.

Water-Man
October 7, 2008, 03:23 PM
GAdeerslayer...You should check out the ballistics of a .357Mag fired from a rifle before you make such statements. Look at Buffalo Bore ammo and Double Tap ammo.

Snapping Twig
October 7, 2008, 03:24 PM
I have to reflect earlier suggestions on a 30-30 or perhaps a Mini 30 with 150g SP bullets.

A Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 downloaded to acceptable levels would work too.

The .30 carbine gained a poor reputation for a reason.

That said, it's a whole lot better than nothing and would feel like the Hammer of Thor in my hands if that was all I had, but I'd move to another firearm if I had the opportunity.

Cast bullets in a .45LC or a .44spl would penetrate quite nicely and are easy on the shooter FWIW.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 03:32 PM
Here (http://world.guns.ru/rifle/m1car_r.jpg)'s the little M1.

Here's (http://www.gunsamerica.com/976903557/Guns/Rifles/Ruger-Rifles/M44-Carbine/Ruger_Deerfield_Carbine.htm) the Ruger Deerfield .44 Carbine.

(And here (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_deerfield.htm).)

If she is comfortable with the M1, she should be quickly comfortable with the Deerfield.

John

19-3Ben
October 7, 2008, 03:57 PM
yes in a carbine. 2000 fps +110 grain =880 ftlbs. 200 more than a .357! smaller bullet + FMJ = penetration. and controled rapid fire = Id take a .30 carbine and a 30 rounder over any pistol or lever gun any day.

No. A Buffalo Bore 180gr. .357mag load comes out of a carbine at 1850fps. But it's a MUCH heavier round, and has much better sectional density. I'd guess that it would penetrate much father than the .30 carbine.
The other thing is that the light little .30carbine round is gonna stop when it hits bones. a 180gr hardcast round at 1850fps is gonna blow right through that sucker.

Given the choice, I'd prefer the larger, heavier bullet.

Heck, it you really wanna get hung up on energy, you can get the 125gr .357mag, which comes out at 2300fps. now you have a heavier bullet, AND more energy. But at this point, i'd say that round loses because it lacks the SD of the 180gr.

ashtxsniper
October 7, 2008, 03:58 PM
A 30 carbine fmj to the brain will quickly stop the biggest bear in existence. Usually they charge you head first so that gives you a nice target. Now if a bear decideds to charge her ass first she might be in trouble.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 04:12 PM
Okay, that's just silly (charging in reverse). A cranium is sloped and would be moving rapidly. A better bet is a heavier, broader bullet fired from a similar platform.

Rifleman 173
October 7, 2008, 04:38 PM
The best way to kill any kind of bear is with an A-10 Warthog or naval gunfire from afar. A bear having a bad day is like a tractor with teeth coming at you. It will eat you alive. Never mess with any kind of bear. Never.

sadp40
October 7, 2008, 04:45 PM
with a 110 soft point .30 carbine. trust me i thought it was a mistake but it was much more effective than i thought. but for a pissed off bear you better have a bayonet mounted on that thing so the bear can use it to pick his teeth.i really would rather have a 45-70 with heavy hard cast bullets.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 04:48 PM
Any "real" rifle caliber is fine for most black bears, which I understand is what we're talking about here. (Right?)

.357 is borderline, so automatically, .30 Carbine is, as well, but with perhaps even less potential than the .30.

J

rondog
October 7, 2008, 04:59 PM
The only M1 that I personally would use on a bear is my M1 Garand. 8 rounds of 30-06 FMJ should have a reasonable effect, I would think.

JShirley
October 7, 2008, 05:08 PM
Not as much as one would like. 30 caliber is just .30 if it doesn't expand, fragment, or tumble.

Wes Janson
October 7, 2008, 05:42 PM
Kinda surprised no one else has brought it up, but why not an AK variant? Screw bolt or lever action for a non-expert at short range. And I get the impression that price probably is somewhat of an issue. So why not a Saiga 7.62x39?

Ivanimal
October 7, 2008, 05:44 PM
While in Alaska 2 years ago a fishing guide I ran into said he would not use anything but a 12 gauge with slugs. In close quarters he said they work best.

MinnMooney
October 7, 2008, 05:46 PM
Let's put it this way, in many states a .30 Carbine isn't even legal for deer hunting so it's certainly not very good for protection from bears. It's better than throwing rocks but not much.

Eyesac
October 7, 2008, 05:50 PM
Shot placement! You can kill a bear with a .22! Would I want to try..NO! Ideal bear gun....I don't think there is any!

+1, But I'll add, if it's camp you're looking to defend I'm sure a couple dogs and a carbine and you could do pretty good for yourself.

Kind of Blued
October 7, 2008, 05:55 PM
Jeezy creezy.

CQB bear-fighting tactics aside, as with every other "insert caliber vs. Bear" thread currently running:

Bigger, heavier, faster bullets = Good.
Bigger bears = Bad.
Shooting it as many times with whatever you have as close to it's CNS and vitals as possible = Good.

Considering, if you have a Browning M2 machine gun, offer that.

DEAC25
October 7, 2008, 06:03 PM
I absolutely love my M1 Carbine. It is perhaps my favorite gun to shoot.

It would travel on a camping trip here in Eastern NC with me, but so would my 308 Savage Boltie, along with a 45 and maybe a 357 mag. sidearm.

I would be very concerned if I disturbed a bear and it charged no matter what the situation, but if I only had the M1 I would use it. I would rather have the Savage in 308, but in reality a charging bear is my worst nightmare, having seen it on TV and the net. Shoot, I would hate to have only the 308, (maybe a flamethrower)

As to the 2 legged varmints, I would be totally confident with the M1. I think its penetration is underrated if you hit your target areas.

Shawnee
October 7, 2008, 06:05 PM
Lot to be said for a 12 ga. double-barrel stoked with single-aught buckshot.

:cool:

rondog
October 7, 2008, 06:47 PM
Not as much as one would like. 30 caliber is just .30 if it doesn't expand, fragment, or tumble.

Perhaps, but they'll damn sure penetrate deep into ol' Yogi, and I'd bet there'd be a fair amount of tumbling and resultant tissue/bone/organ damage. I'd take it over the .30 carbine or .357 anyday. Not that I'm going to be hanging out in bear country anytime soon.....

rondog
October 8, 2008, 01:48 PM
I do agree in a Cage Match senario I would prefer at least a SOCOM 16, or a M240, but the 30 carbine is what she has. She can hit what she is aiming at. And here is the kicker. It is semi auto and has high capicity. It makes a nice camp gun anywhere on this planet. You dont really need a super belted magnum with D.U. penetrators to kill bears. I deaded me 400 lb. Florida Black bear at 250 yards with a .270 and it zipped through both sides of her. only ran about 15 feet before she was twitching in the dirt. I know there is a BIG diffference in Black and Roid Raging Grizzleys, but they are not wearing ceramic reactive classified armor that stops APFSDS tank rounds. It can be used for what she wants. I would not go out looking for trouble though......

Get her a couple of good quality 30-round mags then, and the hottest ammo you can find.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
October 8, 2008, 02:20 PM
How about a Remington 7400 .30-06 carbine?

The M1 will just PO the critter and the splinters will make good toothpicks for it.

Decker
October 8, 2008, 06:32 PM
Went back and read where this started, and keeping that little gun in camp is fine. The reality of it is, a black bear is going to come to camp looking for your food, not you, last i checked black bear attacks on humans are extremely rare, they just arent that bold a critter.

Grizzlies coming to camp are a whole nother game though, grizzlies period really. I hunt th eBob Marshal wilderness here in MT alot, and only live 80 miles from Yellowstone park, this is griz country for sure. I know everyone laughs about the pepper spray, but it is quite effective, everybow hunter i know, myself included carries it.

While its not a 44mag on your belt, you do carry it with you all the time, the carbine will be leaning against a tree, beside the sleeping bag, whatever when in camp, I doubt shes packing it 100% of the time, but would always have the pepper spray on her.

Here is why its better than a gun for most people in the world, and definitely worth having as a backup.

Majorit of grizzly encounters happen fast, and I mean fast! You might get one shot if its frontal, if it hits you from behind, your already down. Once down, that pepper spray carried on a chest holster is still useful. If you can get your hand on your chest, you can litterally fog the area, doesnt have to be a direct hit. yeah, you suffer too, but i'll take my eyes burnt out of my head before a bear gettin chewed to death. Same goes with frontal attack, you get to aim in that case, but you are shooting a wide path of spray, putting up a barrier so to speak. Better odds IMO.

For a camp gun, that little 30 is probably sufficient, but isn't my choice for sure. My camp gun is a remington 870 with 20 inch slug barrel and full mag of slugs. If i have the chance to shoot it out point blank with a griz, hard to beat a slug.

I really wouldn't worry about the black bears, i got a better chance of hitting the lottery than having a bad deal with them. The griz are always the issue, just flat unpredictable. I have had them false charge at 50 yrads, but have never had to test any theories out fortunately.

Anyhow, my two cents living here in Bozeman Montana, I have alittel first hand experience, and you wont catch me in griz country without the pepper spray, its a viable plan, either as backup, or first choice depending on the situation.

Float Pilot
October 8, 2008, 07:56 PM
One of the Departments I worked for had an M-2 Carbine (select fire) that belonged to the chief. He used to keep it in his car all the time with about 6 magazines of ball ammo.

We had season with lots of bear calls. One day the LT. decided to borrow the Chief's M2 carbine on a bear call.

While a bunch of kids and moms were looking on from low income housing, the LT decided to let the bear have it on full auto. He later cliamed he thought it was on semi.

Well..... The 300 pound blackie took 15 or so rounds amidships while the rest of the magazine went off into a dumpster. All the hardball rounds went through him and he was dead as a door nail by the time I arrived 30 seconds later.

I had to shoot a bunch of feral dogs with that darn carbine as well. Usually they ran off after taking two or three hits. It was very embarrassing... I would not want to shoot anything that had a bad temper with one of those things..

longdayjake
October 8, 2008, 08:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc

Like this!

Threeband
October 8, 2008, 09:00 PM
Should be good for a Koala Bear.

http://www.ecollo.com/image.axd?picture=KoalaBear.jpg

351 WINCHESTER
October 8, 2008, 09:51 PM
A cool shot could probably pull it off with a head shot. Personally I would like to see your daughter carrying a marlin .44 mag. loaded with a good heavy duty round.

22/22mag
October 9, 2008, 03:39 AM
Find her a good used Ruger .44mag semi-auto carbine at least she could get off 5 quick shots.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 9, 2008, 08:54 AM
Threeband, you're evil. Mmmmm, koala-burgers. :p

Just to reiterate: If you must use .30 carbine for defense against a 300-500 lb mature male bruin, then ball ammo is better than the choice of soft points, IMO. Without penetration, you ain't gonna have a chance stop him. Unless you have pepper spray instead, which is a better choice for defense.

USSR
October 9, 2008, 09:04 AM
If you must use .30 carbine for defense against a 300-500 lb mature male bruin, then ball ammo is better than the choice of soft points, IMO. Without penetration, you ain't gonna have a chance stop him.

+1.

Don

JShirley
October 9, 2008, 07:32 PM
300-500 lb mature male bruin, then ball ammo is better than the choice of soft points, IMO. Without penetration, you ain't gonna have a chance stop him. Unless you have pepper spray instead, which is a better choice for defense.

Actually, in my experience, .30 Carbine soft-points are VERY penetrative. Too much so for HD, but almost certainly better than ball against a black bear.

John

Cosmoline
October 9, 2008, 07:53 PM
Majority of grizzly encounters happen fast, and I mean fast!

This point is worth repeating, since it doesn't seem to sink in very easily. A bear on the attack is not like the slow-moving creatures you seen in zoos or on the discovery channel. They are like huge torpedoes, and move through game trails and tunnels in undergrowth that's often so thick you won't actually see them until they're right next to you. Every time I've run across a bear I've heard it before I've seen it. The notion that you'll be able to get to cover and engage in some protracted firefight with a thirty round mag with an actual attacking bear is absurd. You might POACH a bear that way, but if it's really attacking you it will be over much faster than that, one way or the other.

gvnwst
October 9, 2008, 10:55 PM
the 30 carbine is illegal in many states for deer hunting. much less self defense from a animal that thinks of you as lunch. or will, as soon as you let a misplaced round loose.

Go with something like a .458 chambered AR....
:)

SoCalShooter
October 9, 2008, 11:00 PM
I would say no. You probably will just upset the bear, now a shotgun loaded with slugs or something in 44mag like a marlin is a much better idea.

jackdanson
October 9, 2008, 11:14 PM
Like this!

Yeah, I wouldn't want a .30 cal in that situation.

Ignition Override
October 10, 2008, 01:48 AM
The Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine is supposed to have a heavy recoil, but with steel nerves, four shots can kill a Grizzly bear, from what we read.

Four accurate shots with the very smooth action.

Or two shots from a MN 44 for a smaller adult black bear, aimed from a tree stand.

chemist308
October 10, 2008, 02:21 AM
I realize everyone is saying a 44 mag is better for bear; a 12 guage with buckshot or slugs is better...Hell a RPG is better too.

Look, when the SHTF the best gun to use is the one you actually have and maybe can hit stuff with. Sounds like the 30 carbine meets both of these criteria for her, so by all means use it. Although we don't have grizzly's in PA, we do have black bear. Even though predatory attacks on humans are rare, I carry a 357 when hiking. But it's loaded with 38 specials. Why? Because I can't hit $#%! with a hot 357 load, so it isn't going to do me any good. Hitting the target is most important.

Many people consider the 357 sufficient for most issues, maybe not Alaskan grizzlies. But the 30 carbine is on par with the 357 mag, gives much faster follow up shots, is probably more accurate, and holds about 9 more rounds.

C-grunt
October 10, 2008, 02:35 AM
Get her a cougar....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tSm_LWX4Io&feature=related

jjohnson
October 10, 2008, 11:11 AM
Thanks! This thread was depressing me until you put up the Koala.... we need a little humor here.

Kleanbore
October 10, 2008, 11:31 AM
Professional as in Craig Boddington or Jim Shokey.

Boddington on grizzly: .300 magnums, .338's, .35 Whelen ,.375 & .416 mag, .45-70 heavy loads at sort range.

I would consider a .30 carbine for 10 seconds.

HorseSoldier
October 10, 2008, 01:18 PM
Putting a couple rounds over a bear's head may scare if off, from a .30 carbine or anything else, if it's being inquisitive and nosing towards a camp. Unlikely to make much difference in full charge mode, as others have noted.

ssfeldjager
October 11, 2008, 10:31 AM
Using a .30 carbine for bear? Sure; no sweat.

BTW, check your health and life insurance coverage. Funerals run in the $13k plus range. Just being prepared.

brassdog
October 11, 2008, 01:35 PM
Why not use a mini-30? It has the same basic layout with a proven cartridge. Not sure I'd use one for bear but it be better than the .30 carbine M1.

76shuvlinoff
October 11, 2008, 08:42 PM
If all I had was a damn .22 it would be empty when they found my remains. :eek:
30 carbine is better than pillow fight.

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