Why not a Wal-Mart $114 muzzle loader?


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<SLV>
October 7, 2008, 12:24 PM
Does anyone have a good reason I shouldn't pick up a $114 .50 cal muzzle loader from Wal-Mart for my first muzzle-loader? I just want something cheap that will get me access to another hunting season. I am planning on casting bullets for it.

I think the Wal-Mart cheapo is a "Traditions Tracker".

PS - If I had to money I'd pick up a Thompson Encore Pro Hunter or Savage's smokeless powder 10ML-II.

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El Barto
October 7, 2008, 12:30 PM
If this were to be the first and only muzzle loader, one that you expect to keep for a hundred years and pass down, then I would say no, get something else.

If you expect that you may like muzzle loaders and figure on getting another later, then I would say this is a good, inexpensive way to get into it.

frontiergander
October 7, 2008, 12:57 PM
I'd prefer the cva buckhorn as CVA's customer service is as good as tc's. Traditions are fine and all but i'd rather spend the same money on a cva.

try www.budsgunshop.com and look under rifles/cva for the best prices on cva's.

arcticap
October 7, 2008, 01:26 PM
That's a good deal for a Traditions Tracker.
Keep it clean and it will last a long time.
Have lots of fun making smoke! :)

Six Feet Under
October 7, 2008, 01:30 PM
I'm looking at these as well because I want to get into muzzleloading and I don't wanna spend a ton of money.

Let us know how it works out if you get it soon! :)

Mark whiz
October 7, 2008, 01:41 PM
I'm still shooting my "beginner" Knight USAK I picked up in 2000 - damn good shooter................and I've yet to buy any other smokepole simply because I ain't seen anything that would outshoot it yet. It's all a matter of finding what the gun likes to shoot and stay within those limits.

<SLV>
October 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
CVA, huh... looks like the "Wolf" is their cheapest, and it is a break action. Which is easier to use/clean? Bolt or break action? I'm assuming that the break action would take down into two parts.

B.D. Turner
October 7, 2008, 02:35 PM
I bought a Wind River Magnum .50 inline muzzleloader on an after season sale for $50.00 and tax. Its not going to last 100 years but it shoots well and only gets used about twice a year.

arcticap
October 7, 2008, 04:36 PM
If you look at Page 12 of the Wolf manual, you can see the firing pin assembly has more small parts and I don't know how frequently these would need to be cleaned.

http://www.cva.com/pdfs/Optima_Wolf_Manual.pdf

The Tracker does have more parts that need to be regularly disassembled but they are larger and easy to remove and clean. They are the bolt & bolt handle, spring, end cap and breech plug.
The Tracker has a sliding plunger bolt that slams forward instead of a hammer that strikes a firing pin.
The Tracker disassembly procedure is shown beginning on page 6.

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/products/FIT%2018%20Manual.pdf

The Wolf has a more enclosed action which some states have restrictions about so check your hunting regulations.
The Tracker's action is longer, but it is simpler and easy to replace the parts.
With the action open, the 209 primer is probably more accessible on the Wolf.
I don't see any safety lever on the Wolf though. The Tracker does have a safety switch so that once it's cocked, you'd just slide it forward to disengage it and shoot. If the Wolf doesn't have a safety lever, then when hunting the hammer would still need to be cocked before taking the shot.
Every gun has it's advantages and disadvantages. :)

Cosmoline
October 7, 2008, 04:38 PM
It's fine as a learning experience to start with one of the cheaper smoke poles. But I'm warning you now it's highly addictive. I started with a "bargain" used Pedersoli for $200 and that's ended up costing me a mint ;-) Because once you learn what's out there from the custom shops, you will lose all control. You'll be running around like Daniel Day-Lewis with some custom long rifle that took you five weeks to build.

frontiergander
October 7, 2008, 04:44 PM
Wolf is easier to clean. I'd spend a little extra and go with the Optima.

Got one in trade last month and i liked it so much that i sold my omega. That should say a lot!

Wolf/accura/optima are all simple and easy to clean.

ImARugerFan
October 7, 2008, 04:49 PM
I prefer the break action, especially when it comes to cleaning. I have an inexpensive NEF sidekick. I got the stainless model, the blued/walnut is around $150 brand new. They are rock solid. (the ramrod does suck though I'll admit)

ATAShooter
October 7, 2008, 04:49 PM
I picked up a Traditions Tracker as my first. Great little rifle, served me well. Then I upgraded to a TC Omega. I hated it. Sold it and went back to WalMart and bought another Traditions Tracker and haven't looked back. It is accurate and a joy to shoot. The other thing I liked about it, If it rusted up or got broken, pitch it, and go buy a new one and Still would have less invested overall than the Omega. Yep, many a buck done fell by Ole Black Bertha ( That's her name ).:D

Pancho
October 7, 2008, 05:41 PM
SLV, There is more to this than you might know. Hunting with a single shot anything opens up a whole new world of hunting. Not having multiple rounds available to a hunter makes a hunter learn and use skills never thought of by the typical repeating firearm hunter. I know I've stepped on some toes but when you've got one round to get the job done you begin to realize and become connected to what our forefathers experienced.
As for ease of use and cleaning, the break action has it all over the bolt action. I own 3 break actions and 10 traditional MLs and I've borrowed, used and cleaned a Knight bolt action. IMHO I'd rather clean a break action.

stevereno1
October 7, 2008, 09:37 PM
The "low- end" in -line Muzzle loaders of today are much better than the "high-end" rifles from 10 years ago. get what you want!

bfhcards
October 7, 2008, 10:21 PM
I just got into Muzzle Loading and it is a great deal of fun. I started on the higher end but I think starting on the lower end sounds like a better idea. I am happy with what I got but not sure if I am skilled enough yet to really appreciate it. That value of moving up the ladder is worth alot and the learning curve is more appreciable.

<SLV>
October 7, 2008, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the tips everyone. I revisited Wal-Mart today, and the $114 gun is actually the CVA standard inline (Buckhorn). They have the CVA break action (Wolf) for $147. I really like the look and feel, but do you think I'd be sacrificing anything with the shorter 24" barrel?

frontiergander
October 7, 2008, 11:08 PM
Nothing much at all. Just an easier barrel to handle in thick woods and such.

You'll barely notice the shorter barrel even at long distances.

had a 2 cva staghorns ( old model buckhorns) and they were both excellent shooters with conicals and sabots.

Pancho
October 8, 2008, 03:41 PM
I've never been a believer in the "magnum loads" gun makers are pushing lately. Short barreled guns especially so. It is my belief and I could be corrected here but the shorter the barrel the less time the burning powder and expanding gases have to accelerate the projectile. In a nutshell don't waste your powder and money with 150 grain loads in a 24" barrel even if the manufacturer says it will work they don't say there is any benefit.

Mark whiz
October 9, 2008, 12:08 PM
I agree with Pancho - the "magnum" gun mentality is hooey. A 300gr sabot over 80gr of Triple Seven power is accurate as hell and has a muzzle velocity of around 1600fps - plenty enough to take down anything in the USA at a reasonable distance.

My Knight has a 24" barrel and I would shoot it out to 125yds with as much (or more) confidence as I would any center-fire rifle with the above load.

<SLV>
October 9, 2008, 12:45 PM
I think CVA recommends 50-100 grains on the .50 cal.

frontiergander
October 9, 2008, 02:20 PM
100gr loose powder and 150gr mag load with pellets.

mgregg85
October 9, 2008, 08:41 PM
If you don't want to pay more then go for it. Traditions do all right, sure some CVA's and T/C's are better but it'll get the job done.

Coyote Hunter
October 9, 2008, 09:09 PM
You'll be OK with the walmart gun. I bought a Cabella's tradition hawkin back in '93 and I still use it every deer season, amid all my buddy's "modern" inlines. Still shoot round ball. Still kill deer.

It's kida like my dear pappy in law's old Schwinn (sic) Bicycle Works Iver Johnson 1940's 16guage single shot I inherited. It goes with me squirrel hunting cause I can bust a squrrel way out there every time, so I leave my expensive shotguns in the cabinet.

If it hits where you aim, that's more important to the deer.

Steven Youngblood
October 12, 2008, 05:12 PM
I have to agree with coyote hunter.
When it's wet and nasty out my old CVA mountain stalker goes to the woods, 100 grains of ffg and a round ball, is all it takes to bag a deer, sure as shootin. as for mr. bushy tail, my 16 ga. stevens, works better than my mossberg pump.

oneshooter
October 12, 2008, 07:34 PM
If you plan to hunt with "it". Then check your local laws, some states have outlawed "them" for hunting during ML season.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

SteveDS
October 12, 2008, 11:42 PM
Guess is that this guy's opinions will raise some interesting responses here, but you may want to read them before you buy. Personally, I do not like the idea of putting my face next to a tube loaded with an explosive charge when it has a questionalble quality record, no matter how much better it may be than muzzloaders sold 10 years ago. Not sure safety glasses have improved that much. Pick up a used Knight, TC, or Lyman if you do not want to buy new.

http://randywakeman.com/IsMyMuzzleloaderSafe.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

mykeal
October 12, 2008, 11:55 PM
Randy Wakeman has zero credibility with many, if not most, serious bp shooters. For what it's worth, in my opinion he has absolutely nothing to add to any serious consideration of black powder shooting sports.

dgray64
October 13, 2008, 02:30 PM
I bought the Wolf because of the price last spring from Cabelas . It has light gathering sights that make lining up on your target very easy. The sights are easy to adjust. It's really accurate and the soft recoil pad nearly eliminates the kick. If you really concentrate as you are supposed to, the smooth trigger goes off so easily that you are surprised and the ball goes right where you aimed it. Fun!!

The think to remember is that not all powders are equal in power. Play with it with different loads, but when you sight it in for hunting, do so with the load and bullet that you will use for hunting. I can sight mine with Goex FF and a lead ball, to be right on target, but when I shoot pellets (100 gr) of Pyradex or Seven7, the hit will be at least 4" higher than the hit from the Goex and ball. Either will kill a deer easily, but choose your load ahead of time and practice so that you are not surprised with a miss during the hunt. Have fun and make lots of smoke!!

Dave :neener:

<SLV>
October 16, 2008, 02:43 PM
I ended up spending $147 at Wal-Mart to get the CVA Wolf. The break action looked to be easier to clean and offered better weather protection.

They had two on the rack at Wally-World, so I asked to look at both of them. Right away I noticed that the trigger guards were different. A closer inspection showed that one was alluminum and the other was plastic. I wonder if the plastic style is newer. I picked up the one with the alluminum guard. I was also disappointed to see that the sites were plastic. They are nice and bright fiber sights, but I've had a hard time getting plastic sites to sit still. I may end up getting a 1x scope for it.

First thing I did after getting it home was break it. I'm a lefty, and I wanted to move the hammer thumb extension to the other side. It appeared to be threaded into the hammer, but it just twisted off (It was alluminum). Oh well... I wasn't going to use it on that side anyway. It looks like it was lok-tited into place.

Now I'm in the process of getting all of the stuff to make it go boom. Unfortunately, Sportsman's Warehouse is mostly out of stock because the muzzle-loading season is over here in Colorado. Here is my wishlist:

1. Thompson deluxe bullet starter
2. Thompson U-view clear powder measure
3. CVA Pyrodex bottle funnel
4. Triple-7 powder and 209 primers

Now just to find someone who stocks this stuff. I'll be casting bullets for it (Lee 250 gr. .512 REAL), so I got that part covered. I also picked up some T/C foaming bore cleaner at Wal-Mart.

ATAShooter
October 16, 2008, 03:02 PM
I would like to take the time and eat some crow.... I had posted earlier...

I picked up a Traditions Tracker as my first. Great little rifle, served me well. Then I upgraded to a TC Omega. I hated it. Sold it and went back to WalMart and bought another Traditions Tracker and haven't looked back. It is accurate . The other thing I liked about it, If it rusted up or got broken, pitch it, and go buy a new one and Still would have less invested overall than the Omega.

After shooting the Traditions again now for a while, I have had a few things that has made me start to rethink this...

1 - I wanted to use the Blackorn 209 powder. Well, due to the way the primer goes into the plug, I have gotten some "Delayed" ignitions. I found out that the Breech Plug in my rifle is of a "Not Recommended" type for this powder.

2 - Coming off a hammer gun, going back to a "Slam-fire" bolt, made me notice the debris that comes out when firing. So definitely wear eye protection.

3 - Sloppyness of the trigger - Now I know it is a get what you pay for deal, however, coming back from the Omega made me really take note.

I am going to take the plunge and purchase a Thompson Triumph. ( I know, bend over and spell RUN 3 times ). I have had a chance to experement with it and like it.

I just wanted a chance to correct myself, as The Traditions I had was my starter, and seemed good. However, after going back to it from the Omega, I see why it was the cost it was.

Sorry guys,

Rick L.:(

frontiergander
October 16, 2008, 03:40 PM
You may be able to trade in those plastic sights for steel durabrights. Call cva and see what they can do for ya.

Make sure you clean that rifle out good and lube the breech plug with Breech plug grease.

The wolf is a good shooting rifle from the reports i see on forums.

arcticap
October 16, 2008, 07:19 PM
Traditions has a special sale on riflescopes happening right now.
They have a 1 X 32 camo muzzle loading scope for $59.
Inexpensive 1 X 32 riflescopes aren't easy to find.

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=A1141SC

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/products/A1143SC_s.jpg

If you click on their home page, you'll see links to some special deals on scope rings and other Bargain Bin accessories.

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/

There's also a link to their Bargain Bin at the top right of every page.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 17, 2008, 05:37 PM
Other than the unsightly plastic stock, no. It should shoot. Just keep your loads to 120 gr BP equivalent or less (100 grains of 777 or less) with the Spanish-made guns, and you'll be fine. They will kill the game and work reliably if you operate and clean them properly.

<SLV>
October 18, 2008, 07:41 PM
Now that you mention it, the stock is very narrow at the comb -- uncomfortably so. I'm probably going to get one of those adhessive foam comb pads to build it up a little.

Thanks for the tip on the Traditions scopes. 1x rifle scopes are hard to find at a cheap price. I'd prefer the matte black, but I see it is out of stock.

Matt-J2
October 19, 2008, 04:27 PM
How well would patched round balls work in a Wolf? Been thinking about getting one of these myself. I'd prefer more traditional sidelock type, but the price is certainly right on the Wolf, and it's kind of neat on it's own.

frontiergander
October 19, 2008, 05:41 PM
round ball will shoot fine with a low powder charge.

As for the guy shooting BH209 in his tracker, thats a No no in the Plunger styled muzzleloader.

351 WINCHESTER
October 19, 2008, 06:44 PM
You guys got me thinking. I have 2 cva bobcats in .50. I use 75 grs. of 777 with a patched round ball. They are very accurate guns. We've used them for several years without incident.

Are we foolish for still using them or should we get better equipment?

frontiergander
October 19, 2008, 10:22 PM
cva bobcat is a darn good rifle, i owned one till i traded it for my current cva optima. I only own one inline, the rest are sidelocks and flintlocks. The traditionals in my opinion are a lot more fun and a lot more rewarding when the smoke clears in the field.

arcticap
October 20, 2008, 12:13 AM
Are we foolish for still using them or should we get better equipment?


Every gun, action and ignition system has it's advantages and disadvantages.
You can buy new equipment that may shoot more accurately at longer distances, but there's trade-offs.
Inlines can be more expensive to feed, more difficult to load and more fickle to shoot becaused they usually require more swabbing between shots. People switch when they get tired of what they're shooting and when they're ready to try something new.
You'll essentially need to give up patched round balls, but you'll gain more reliable ignition and will be able to mount a scope more easily if your state hunting laws allows it.
What's better is what's more comfortable and desirable in the opinion of the individual shooter. :)

<SLV>
October 21, 2008, 01:20 PM
I've been told that the rate of twist in the CVA Wolf is too great for effective ball stabilization. Here is the rule of thumb I was given regardng twist:

1:28-1:48 Sabots or conical ball bullets

1:48-1:78 Patch and ball.

1:48 Both, but not the best for either

Coyote Hunter
October 21, 2008, 03:12 PM
Sunday, one hour before sundown, buck next to barbed wire fence 65 yards away, Traditions hawken from cabellas circa early 1990's. 1-48 twist, .490 hornady pached roundball, 90 grains 2FG, dead on profile staring right at the popup blind. Big bang, cloud of smoke, solid hit, dead deer. Case closed.:cool:

But man ain't it fun to talk about these guns!:D

mykeal
October 21, 2008, 08:40 PM
<SLV> - You've got the 'rule of thumb' right, but like many such urban legends there are some caveats. The detail shape of the conical matters as does the range and magnitude of powder load; Minie balls, although characterized by many as conicals, act more like round balls. The poor ballistic coefficient of round balls makes the rule of thumb pretty much incorrect the further you're shooting (after about 100 yards, and for sure by 125 yards). Round balls will shoot fairly well at shorter ranges using light loads even in fast twist barrels like 1:20. Etc. Etc. Bottom line: try it.

<SLV>
October 23, 2008, 12:41 PM
What is the advantage to round balls? Cost? No barrel leading?

arcticap
October 23, 2008, 01:31 PM
Yes they're cheaper, easier to start and ram and there's no plastic fouling either.

Matt-J2
October 23, 2008, 01:45 PM
Cheaper by a large margin, so far as I've seen. One could pick up 100 round balls + patches for the same cost(or less) than 20-25 sabots and bullets(or the Powerbelts, or even plain Conicals).

I'm sure there's deals here and there, but from what I've seen, shooting sabots in a muzzleloader is as much or more expensive than shotgun slugs. Well...maybe. I think avg runs between 50 cents and $1 per bullet/sabot. Really depends on what you're going for. Most of what I see local though is in the near $1 range.

mykeal
October 23, 2008, 07:09 PM
Like I said, they expand better, and at shorter ranges with slow twist barrels they're more accurate, especially in the smaller calibers.

You really need to try several projectiles and loads in your gun to see what works best at the ranges you're going to be shooting. That's the fun part of bp shooting - working up your own load regardless of what the urban legends on the internet or around the campfire are. Every gun is different. Just like you'd be foolish to shoot somebody else's cartridge reloads, shooting some internet recommendation without trying others is, well, just wrong.

SaltH2OHokie
October 28, 2008, 12:55 PM
SLV - if you want a thumb extension on the other side, call CVA and get them to send you one. The reason you wrenched it off is because it's got a left-hand thread...you were tightening till it broke.

There's probably still room to thread one in from the other side, though. Without even removing the broken off threads from the RH side.

flyboy1788
November 1, 2008, 04:20 PM
ive got a new frontier beartooth magnum ( it is basically a cva wolf under different name) muzzleloader in .50 that cost $200 with a scope from cabelas. I do plan on getting more muzzleloaders down the road, but i will say that it is VERY accurate for such a short barrel. I can consistantly clover leaf my 3 shot groups at 50 yards with 100 grains of Pyrodex pellets and a 245 grain powerbelt hollowpoint. At one hundred yards the accuracy is closer to 3 moa. I am pleased with it. It will be my go to brush gun.

presidents_topgun
December 19, 2008, 04:32 PM
I would refrain from buying any CVA muzzleloader. They are an import and do not pass my standard for safety, or proof pressure testings. If you value your face and care not to have your digits blown off, I'd steer clear of their inferior firearms. I speak not only from experience, but have seen first hand the inferior quality in the spanish steel they use. However, they make a good conversation piece for above the fireplace. I have nothing against import firearms since I own several. I am just concerned about the safety of the shooter and bystanders. Also, I do not wish to grant license to the anti's and the CDC to falsely misrepresent firearm safety. Importers do not give one hang about your safety. They are only interested in the bottom-line. Don't give that redneck Hillbillary any ammunition to use against the shooting populace. Hillbillary has now been tapped for S.O.S., she will have an increased passion ramped up against gun owners. Best wishes to all.

flyboy1788
December 19, 2008, 04:56 PM
I would refrain from buying any CVA muzzleloader. They are an import and do not pass my standard for safety, or proof pressure testings. If you value your face and care not to have your digits blown off, I'd steer clear of their inferior firearms. I speak not only from experience, but have seen first hand the inferior quality in the spanish steel they use. However, they make a good conversation piece for above the fireplace. I have nothing against import firearms since I own several. I am just concerned about the safety of the shooter and bystanders. Also, I do not wish to grant license to the anti's and the CDC to falsely misrepresent firearm safety. Importers do not give one hang about your safety. They are only interested in the bottom-line. Don't give that redneck Hillbillary any ammunition to use against the shooting populace. Hillbillary has now been tapped for S.O.S., she will have an increased passion ramped up against gun owners. Best wishes to all.

1.) think about how many CVAs are out there and then how many of those have "blown up" (not very many)

2.) Read the instruction manual and understand what your gun is designed for: No more than 150 grains of pellets--or--No more than 100 grains of loose powder is what my New Frontier(CVA) says I believe.

3.) If guns blowing up in peoples faces was as common as the errornet would have you believe, CVA wouldnt exist any more because people would be all over them.

I know plenty of people with MZs from BPI (spain) that have not had any issues. In fact i have only read about one article that Chuck Hawks website put out on it that ripped BPI/CVA which was written by a fellow named Randy Wakeman. And coincidentally that happens to be the same story that is circulating in multiple places. I would like to know exactly documented cases of faulty barrels there are in relation to the amount of BPI MZs that are in use today.

mykeal
December 19, 2008, 05:50 PM
President's TopGun -

Welcome to the forum. I think you will find the majority of the members are very intelligent and rational people, deeply interested in the shooting sports and muzzleloading in particular.

Along those lines you will probably not be surprised to find that we like to work with hard facts. I have to admit that my 30 plus years of experience with CVA guns does not parallel yours. I would be very interested in your experience; please provide the facts so that I can fully investigate. What happened, to whom and when, what were the circumstances and what were the findings?

I should point out in advance that if your source involves one Randy Wakeman I'll be difficult to convince; my experience with Mr. Wakeman has not produced positive results in the past.

Again, welcome, and I'll be looking forward to your posts.

Coyote Rider
December 23, 2008, 03:48 PM
A couple of thoughts.

1.) <Off-topic political remarks removed>

2.) You're going to acquire a fairly considerable collection of black powder tools and accessories. Each piece will be relatively inexpensive, in general, but by the time you've assembled all of them in one place you'll discover that it's a fair bit of stuff, and not cheap. You'll be amazed how easily you'll spend a few hundred dollars on bp toys at $6.99 or $12.99 or $37.99 a pop — and before you know it you've spent $400 or $500 on a <> cheap Wal-Mart rifle and the accessories for it. If you're going to spend that much, and you probably will, for goodness sake at least get yourself a decent rifle!

kalbo
December 24, 2008, 10:35 AM
My two cents: I’d buy it. If you hunt in the brush where shots are 100 yards or less this will work fine. When I got into black powder I bought a CVA buckhorn for $99 dollars. READ the instructions. I found 300 grain .452 XTPs on top on 90 grains of triple 7 was the most accurate. I still have that gun and it works great. I take one or two deer a year with it and everything I shoot drops in their tracks. My gun didn’t like the “fancy” and expensive bullets. I spent a fortune on power belts and hydro shock wiz-bang bullets. It didn’t like the lighter bullets. The .452 300 grain XTPs are cheap from Midway and you can buy a bag of the black plastic sabots (for .452 bullets) for a few bucks. The only thing I would suggest is if it comes with an aluminum ram rod, buy a fiberglass one. The aluminum ones will bend. Keep it for cleaning the gun. You can find a 50 cal fiberglass ram rod anywhere and if it is too long, cut it off. Muzzleloader hunting does not have to cost a fortune. Buy it and go hunting.

ArmedBear
December 24, 2008, 11:03 AM
Fiberglass ramrods destroy muzzles. Get a muzzle protector, too.

pbearperry
December 24, 2008, 11:24 AM
I bought a 50 cal CVA Bobcat at Walmart for $50.00 I guess they just wanted to get rid of it.Last week I shot it at 50 yds standing supported.Using 70 grains of FF black powder with a sabot holding a 240 gr lead swc. After 4 shots I walked downrange to look at my target and I almost fell over.All 4 shots were touching eachother making 1 big hole about 3/4 of an inch.My Buddy has an inline Knight that won't do that.Go figure?

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
December 24, 2008, 06:42 PM
If it works then it's a good one. If it dosen't work then it's not worth a damn, I don't care how much it cost.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
December 25, 2008, 02:16 PM
Inline rifles designed for the 'magnum' load (150 grains) is NOT stupid. They work just fine and have one hell of a lot more power than an 80 grain load, and if you learn how to shoot they are accurate as hell.... At a lot further than 125 yards I might add...
They made .45-70's, .45-120's, and a few .45-170's. (I ain't sure what all else if anything. I'm talking about Sharps.) They WILL shoot the powder and they will NOT spew it out the muzzle, and they pack a wallop on both ends. If you are not careful it will kick you flat on your ass. I have a Sioux friend just a few miles from me and he has a .45-170 that's been in his family since before the Little Big Horn dust up. He get's his elk and buffalo with it every year.
I let him shoot my scoped CVA with 140 grains of Triple Seven in it. It shot good, but it kicked so hard that the rifle jumped back and the scope (Shepherd) left a big round ugly bruise right in the middle of his forehead. I fire 110 grains in it as a normal load. He wasn't expecting it to kick that bad.
His rifle is a Sharp's, and it's a damn good one but there's not enough money in this world to get me to shoot a full load in it. He does, just about all of the time.
Don't ya'll believe the bull s*** some of these people are trying to hand ya'll about a magnum inline is not any good. About how it dosen't burn all the powder and all that stuff. It'll burn it if you load it right. Comparing a magnum inline to a regular percussion or flintlock is like comparing a .44 magnum to a .44 special....

lefteyedom
December 26, 2008, 12:37 AM
When did deer start clading themselves in Kevlar?
Deer are just not that hard to kill. A well placed .36 cal ball will kill any whitetail at reasonable ranges.
People, the need is for better hunters not more powerful Muzzleloaders.

frontiergander
December 27, 2008, 05:18 PM
"I let him shoot my scoped CVA with 140 grains of Triple Seven in it"


Is that 140gr triple 7 load loose powder or pellets?

150gr is a waste of powder and not needed, plain and simple. All its there for are the chrono junkies who want to push a tiny bullet to the speed of a 30-06.

scrat
December 27, 2008, 05:33 PM
150 grains may not be needed but it is fun sometimes.


i say buy it i would. at that price i would buy a pair. Nothing wrong with it at all. I am a firm believer of matching the gun to the bullet to the powder. With that i have found it just depended on what i was shooting. when shooting R.E.A.L bullets i found 90 grains of goex is superb. Now for sabots. just depends on which ones. i have shot up to 120 grains loose with some excellent results. over that and i did not seem to make a difference. So it really just depends. As far as the power it does not matter. some people will argue about shooting at a deer with 150 grains versus using 60 grains. Well i always thought it was useless to shoot at a paper target at 10 yards with a 44 magnum. but people still do it. they do it for different reasons. so there is no need to ask why or tell someone to do or not do. if your happy with the rifle buy it. most traditionalist will tell you dont buy it. for the reason they are traditionalist. if you shoot it you will see its a good shooting rifle. you can tailor the shots to your needs to gain the best accuracy.

alsaqr
December 28, 2008, 10:51 AM
I would refrain from buying any CVA muzzleloader. They are an import and do not pass my standard for safety, or proof pressure testings.

Welcome. CVA guns are proofed to the Spanish standard of about 10,000 psi.

I speak not only from experience, but have seen first hand the inferior quality in the spanish steel they use.

Show me the photographic evidence and the documentation where a CVA gun blew up with a recommended load of BP or a BP substiture.

Among other things I am a technical researcher. Have searched the internet dozens of times looking for documented evidence that a CVA gun blew up using a recommended load of BP or a BP substitute. Except for undocumented accusations by Randy Wakeman there is nothing there. In fact one of those CVA guns that Wakeman talks about was blown up by an ignorant first time user using smokeless powder.

Randy Wakeman is in cahoots with a Tulsa, OK ambulance chaser.

Carl N. Brown
December 28, 2008, 12:16 PM
I have used a Walmart CVA Bobcat for years in Muzzloading matches and for the first years I participated in Black Powder cartridge (our BPC matches allowed ML rifles and cap'n'ball pistols). I would not hesitate to take my $59.95 wonder on a deer hunt.

I do recommend range time and most CVA rifles with fixed rear sight have a high brass front blade intended to be filed to zero for your pet load.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
December 28, 2008, 02:27 PM
Hi..The CVA is a .45 and the 140 grains was loose powder Triple Seven 3fffg. I know the manual call's for 2ff but I own 2 CVA's (same model and design)and 2 Traditions (same model and design)and they are all .45, and 3fff shoot's good in them, at least to me plus it keep's me from having to worry about 2 grades of powder. Believe me sir, there's plenty of power there even with the 110 grains I use as my normal load. Those inlines will reach on out there and touch someone.....That man on this post that said he had a Tradition Tracker, well, if it is like mine and if he dosen't read this, ya'll can tell him for me that he has a damn fine rifle. I bought a pair of them out of Gary Olen's Sportsman Guide a few years ago. I bought the blued steel with the black composite stocks and no scope. I 'vd got my own scopes and stuff. I think mine are the tracker also and they are called the 'Evolution'. They have partially fluted barrels and are Magna Ported, and they are 2 of the finest and best handling rifles I have ever had my hands on. One of them is still in the box and has never been loaded or fired. I love my CVA's but I have used the Tradition much more than I have the CVA's. Well, one of my CVA's is still in the box also.
Yes sir to the other man. I agree. I'vd killed several deer (and Antelope) in my miserable mispent life with a .44 (30 grains of Black Mag 3 3fff and then later 30 grains of Triple Seven 3fff) and have had no problems. Big black tailed deer to, not those little white tailed deer....

frontiergander
December 28, 2008, 03:10 PM
did you know that 120gr 2f triple 7 is equal to 150gr pyrodex rs/blackpowder 2f?

You are waaaaaay over loaded.

CVA did some testing on their new Accura and it took 600gr triple 3f and THREE 444gr Powerbelt bullets to explode the barrel.

Jefferson Herb
December 28, 2008, 07:19 PM
I got my first TC hawkin in 77 or 78,traded to cousin for another kit due to boredom.Pyrodex residue left in barrel req replacement ,now has Green Mt 1:28 for slugs.I purchased a cabela's 99.00 china special [inline] thats unimpressive.
The best purchase I made was to buy a .50 cal maxi-ball mold,lesson to self don't use alloy lead; 75 gr of black will put a maxi-ball end for end in our blacktail deer.
Oregon now req : External lock,loose powder[subs ok],no sabots,no scope or fiber optics iron sights only,slugs no more than twice the length of bore dia.
To each their own,If I get any more rifles,I want Flintlocks,I'll stay with black powder,it does'nt deteriorate if it gets wet[just dry it out],and is water soluable,and muzzleloaders used to be cheap to shoot.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
December 29, 2008, 04:47 PM
I normally use 110 grains of Triple Seven 3fff. That's for hunting purposes, when I need to reach on out there. Anything closer than that I use a .44 Cattleman's carbine or maybe my Walker. I usually keep my business to myself. I just get tired of hearing people badmouth CVA. I shoot one and know other people that do and we have had no problems. I could, like for instance, tell that guy about the police officer who was at the range about 3 weeks ago with a new Kimber .45 semi-auto pistol that he'd just paid about a thousand dollars for and how on the 25th shot (regular factory ammo right from the store) the whole damn slide came flying off and almost put out his right eye and cost him 7 stitches across his right eyebrow. Any mechanical device can malfunction from one moment to the next.
If anyone has a picture of a CVA blowing up I'd sure like to see it. I'vd seen the same gunsmith who worked on my 58's and my carbines lock a .50 CVA in the vice and keep adding powder until the rifle jarred completely loose from the stock but the barrel didn't burst and the bolt stayed locked in position. I saw that myself and he did to. He took a couple of pictures of it.
No, I don't don't shoot real heavy loads as a matter of course. Sometimes I'll move up to 117 grains if it's a moose or if I'm in bad bear country. That's just to be safe. I know 110 grains of Triple Seven 3fff will put an elk or a buffalo down at a hell of a lot further than you want to walk to him, especially if you have a bad foot like I do.You have to brace up good for shots like that. I'm getting a little old and gimpy. I don't make many shots like that anymore, but I promise you..I have made more than a couple. Usually, on a deer or one of these little antelopes you can work your way close enough or make the antelope come to you out of being curious to use a carbine or a good revolver.
I will say it again though. Scoped up good and with your loads worked out those inlines will reach on out there. Don't under estimate them....

frontiergander
December 29, 2008, 10:33 PM
powder charge doesnt kill the animal, its the projectile and how it performs.

for example, a 295gr powerbelt with 150gr T7 will blow up on a deer with a shot under 100 yards.

But i agree with you on the cva blowing up BS. Its a guy named randy wakeman that is trying shame the cva brand even though hes shot MANY of them.

Dr.Rob
January 6, 2009, 08:43 PM
After buying a traditional CVA Hawken in .54 and spending too much money to put sling swivels on it busting my shoulder up shooting on the brass buttplate YES I wish I had bought a more modern rifle for half the price to try my FIRST hunt.

Those big heavy barrels are accurate but they are a pig to lug around.

THOMPSOB
January 8, 2009, 09:56 PM
walmart is turning in to an anti gunning gun store, I wouldn"t buy anything from them other then motor oil.

hayman
January 14, 2009, 02:42 AM
ATA SHOOTER,
Your going to like the Triumph. I have been getting extemely great groups with 85grns of T7 and a 295 grn PB. I also get great groups with 80grns t7 with the 250 grn shock waves. The groups are less than an inch @100yds. As good as my .270. I love it.

Eddie

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