Titegroup and .357 Magnum?


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Quoheleth
October 8, 2008, 12:39 AM
Is Titegroup a decent powder for 1000fps .357 Magnum 158LSWC loads? Looking in my Lee manual, I see it shows 4.5gr giving 1028fps at 19,300 CUP. A max load of 5.0gr hits 1108fps with 24,900 CUP.

I'm looking at this because my bullets, at 18BHN, are leading in my SP101 with my old load of 8 grains of AA#5. I think it might be a pressure problem since the max load (which I am well under) of 9 grains AA#5 hits 39000CUP. :o

Thanks,
Q

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evan price
October 8, 2008, 02:16 AM
I am loading mostly Titegroup for nonmagnum practice rounds nowadays. Generally, I use a 158-gr hardcast lead SWC.

According to my load book I was using 5.1 grains of Titegroup and a WIN SP primer and it theoretically achieved 1100 fps @ 24.9k cup. I also note that I handwrote and underlined twice beside it, "good light load".

I also see the next entry with that bullet was for a 5.4 grain charge of Titegroup and a Wolf SP primer, there are no numerical data with this load but I wrote in the margin "BEST LOAD- VERY LIGHT LEADING" and this is the load that I usually choose for .357 Magnums for practice ammo.

iirc 6.1 grains is the Max for Titegroup with a jacketed 158-SWC. Using hardcast lead you can load over the max for lead but the higher you go the more likely leading is to occur.

I have found that Titegroup really prefers to be loaded up towards max to reduce sooting and the "Titegroup stain" on your brass.

Hope that helps.

Quoheleth
October 8, 2008, 08:09 AM
evan price,

That's the kind of stuff I was looking for.

I'll bust out the Titegroup this weekend and give it a try with .357 loads.

Q

jhansman
October 8, 2008, 01:53 PM
I use 5 gr. of Titegroup with that bullet out of my Ruger GP100, and it is both accurate and easy on the recoil/report. TG is my favorite handgun powder by far.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
October 8, 2008, 04:04 PM
Guys, I was just going to look for 357 magnum Titegroup data and found this thread. Thanks to you, I saved time and got additional information.

neal7250
October 8, 2008, 04:21 PM
I love titegroup, and i use it for a lot of calibers. But for a 357 Mag I use H-110;)

Jim Watson
October 8, 2008, 04:27 PM
Do be careful. Ten grains will fit and will provide "energetic disassembly" of your revolver. The only gun ever demolished on our range was most probably shot with a double of Bullseye in .357 brass.

Steve C
October 8, 2008, 05:32 PM
I ran a 4.7gr load of TG, .357 mag Remington cases, CCI500 primer behind a 158gr commercial cast SWC over the chrono and all it was doing was 877 fps average from my 4" S&W 66.

jjohnson
October 8, 2008, 05:33 PM
Right - IF you double that load by mistake - the result could be pretty exciting :what: . TiteGroup's pretty dense (loads are physically small) and a double charge in a .357 case wouldn't spill out - you may not even see it - so be cautious as ever.:scrutiny:

Walkalong
October 8, 2008, 07:50 PM
700X. ;)

It is relatively bulky, clean burning, accurate, and does quite well for downloading .357 brass. It is very good with lead. Titegroup is not the best choice with lead.

18 BHN is a good bit harder than you need for 1000 to 1100 FPS in .357.

GP100man
October 8, 2008, 10:33 PM
smeared lead in the barrel is most likely gas cuttin from under sized, too hard boolit with a lite load .

lite loads need softer boolits .

i wasted alot of alloy finding this
out !

i size my home cast to 359, my cyl throats average 3585.
+1 for 700x & clays for lite loads.

GP100man

evan price
October 8, 2008, 10:45 PM
Yeah, if you really want Magnum performance you need to use the bulky slow powders like win296/h110 or 2400 or #9. But if yo ujust want to make some snappy practice loads, a powder like TG is great & economical. You just need to be careful about how you meter it so you don't geta doublecharge. Considering I load out 9.5 grains for my .44 mag with 240-grain slugs, a double from a .357 load could be quite exciting.

Quoheleth
October 9, 2008, 10:04 AM
I know other powders are better. However, I now have four powders in my cabinet and I want to try to use what I have instead of always buying "better" and "better."

I was using AA#5, but I think the pressure was too high - in both my 6" GP100 and 3" SP101, the load of 8grns has me scrubbing lead out of the barrel. I did the math and the pressure produced by this load needs a BHN closer to 20; these are only 18BHN.

I like Universal for my .38 and 9mm loads, and looking at .357 loads, the pressure is about 6000CUPs lower than AA#5. I might try that one as well.

I have Bullseye and despise the smoky soot it leaves everywhere. I loaded 50 rounds of .38Special; I still have almost a full pound left. Might use it to fertilize the roses...

So, that leaves me with my Titegroup. With pressure 10,000CUPS under AA#5, I though I would try it. I know a BHN of 18 should be able to handle higher pressure than the 24,000CUPS, but I want to try it.

In all fairness, the leading could be a problem with my gun - I haven't slugged the bore. But I thought I would try the TG first and go from there.

I think I might try loading 50 with TG and 50 with Universal. Neither will produce foot-stomping power and velocity, but should produce good target & practice loads.

Q

Walkalong
October 9, 2008, 10:15 AM
Measure your revolver throats. They need to be bigger than the bore. If they are undersized they will swage the bullet down, and then you will get severe gas cutting and leading in your bore. The good news is if they are undersized you can ream them to perfection and then your gun will shoot cast bullets extremely well. You would like them to be .001 to .002 over bore diameter, but .003 or even .004 is workable.

If they are .001 to .005 over bore diameter it is just a matter of matching bullet strength to pressure and velocity.

I know a BHN of 18 should be able to handle higher pressure than the 24,000CUPS, but I want to try it.Easily. Again, it is too hard for 1000 to 1100 FPS.

kludge
October 9, 2008, 01:00 PM
There's a .357 load with AA#2 with 158LSWC with the bullet pushed back to the so the case is flush with the first driving band...

~1000 fps IIRC; it's on their website.

Quoheleth
October 10, 2008, 08:01 AM
Easily. Again, it is too hard for 1000 to 1100 FPS.

Actially, BHN has to do more with pressure than velocity. From missouribullet.com: An optimally hard lead bullet is simply one which obturates at a given pressure sufficiently to seal the bore against the gases which would otherwise “cut through” the soft lead (called “gas-cutting”, forcing molten lead into your rifling. A bullet which is too hard won't obtuurate and seal the bore, because the gas pressure is insufficient to expand the base of the bullet. A bullet which is too soft at a given pressure will experience excessive base expansion and vaporization of the lead, causing leading.

My old load of AA#5 cranked out pressure near 35000CUPS. Using the formula BHN = CUPS/1279.8, I would need a rock-hard 27BHN bullet. Interestingly, that load - according to the manual - generated about 1150fps (no chrono, so that's per Lee's data). Using Universal, I should have about 24000CUPS @ 1050fps necessitating only a BHN of 18. The 100fps isn't the difference, it's the pressure of over 10000cups that causes the leading.

Now, Brad @ MissouriBullet also said some guns can push his .357Magnum LSWC to 1100-1200 without leading. As someone said, it's a combination of throats, bore, and even smooth landes in the barrel. My SP101, however, seems to disagree with that. I need to try it again in my GP100 and see what that gun thinks of the higher-pressured load.

Q

Walkalong
October 10, 2008, 08:08 AM
Actially, BHN has to do more with pressure than velocity

Pressure is velocity. Sorry. I give up. Have fun. :)

Oh yea. I have been there, done that. I am not guessing or reaching conclusions from reading someone elses article.

Quoheleth
October 10, 2008, 09:43 AM
Pressure is velocity. Sorry. I give up.

OK...me too. :)

Have fun.

And, I'll try to have fun. It's been one of those weeks - I could sure use some range time.

Q

Walkalong
October 10, 2008, 11:34 AM
It's been one of those weeks Nothing a good day at the range can't fix. My week was last week. Everything I touched turned to S***. :)

dwave
October 10, 2008, 03:46 PM
Pressure is velocity. Sorry. I give up. Have fun.

NOT always true. Taken from the Hodgdon site:

357 Mag with a 158 GR. CAST LSWC:

HS-6 MAX LOAD: 7.0 gr. 1106 fps@15,500 CUP

CLAYS MAX LOAD: 4.6 gr. 1079 fps@33,600 CUP

2x the pressure for less FPS. Look at the others too:

TITEGROUP MAX LOAD: 5.0 gr 1108 fps@24,900 CUP

That is an extra 9400 CUP for an extra 2 FPS. Obviously Pressure does not always equal velocity.

Walkalong
October 10, 2008, 04:25 PM
That's peak pressure which is very quick with Clays vs HS6. Obviously the same pressure does not always equate to the exact same velocity. You cannot compare a fast powder to a slow one as far as velocity and peak pressures.

I did not make my point clearly enough for some folks, but I am right about the hardness vs pressure part. I am also right about that 18 BHN bullet being to hard for 1000 to 1100 FPS, even if you use a very fast powder to get a short lived high peak pressure. :)

dwave
October 10, 2008, 08:10 PM
but I am right about the hardness vs pressure part.

Are you right because you say you are right? :) You was arguing that the bullets should be matched to velocity, so how are you right about the pressure? Pressure obviously can change between powders. Pressure is what obturates the bullets, not velocity. After all, HS-6 might not get enough pressure to obturate the bullet(15,500 CUP @max load for .357 using 158gr. LSWC), but Clays will do better because of the higher pressure(33,600 CUP @max load for .357 using 158gr. LSWC.)

Obviously the same pressure does not always equate to the exact same velocity. You cannot compare a fast powder to a slow one as far as velocity and peak pressures.

You made a generic statement of:
Pressure is velocity.

You didn't say a thing about fast powders vs. slow powders. Just the statement of Pressure is velocity.

Walkalong
October 10, 2008, 09:49 PM
OK I am dead wrong. I don't know how in the world I managed to shoot lead bullets in auto's, revolvers, and carbines without leading all those years.

Lets see... 9MM - Auto, .38 Spl. - Revolver, .44 Special - Revolver & Carbine, .44 Mag - Revolver & carbine, .45 ACP - Auto, .45 Colt - Revolver, both low pressure and "Ruger Only" loads.

A wide variety of pressure in auto's and revolvers.

You made a generic statement of: Yep, not detailed enough for you obviously.

Are you right because you say you are right?
I am right because I and many others have proven it in the real world.

Pressure is what obturates the bullets, not velocity.No S***, I am glad you cleared that up.

dwave
October 11, 2008, 06:12 AM
Wow, can't believe that you would get mad so easily! You should take it easy. Anyways, you have said two different things. I think you must be an Obama supporter! :rolleyes:

1st you say velocity is what does the bullets:

18 BHN is a good bit harder than you need for 1000 to 1100 FPS in .357.

and

Pressure is velocity

THEN you go on to say:
No S***, I am glad you cleared that up. After I said it was pressure, not velocity.

I understand things just fine, its you that is not very clear.

Walkalong
October 11, 2008, 09:24 AM
I am glad you have had fun attacking my answers. The OP had no problem with my opinions and did not feel it necessary to nit pick my wording. Check my Sig. Think I will be voting for whom now?

dwave
October 11, 2008, 04:02 PM
The OP had no problem with my opinions

Really?


Quote:Easily. Again, it is too hard for 1000 to 1100 FPS.


His reply:
Actially, BHN has to do more with pressure than velocity.

and
So, that leaves me with my Titegroup. With pressure 10,000CUPS under AA#5, I though I would try it. I know a BHN of 18 should be able to handle higher pressure than the 24,000CUPS, but I want to try it.

Looks like he was listening to them. After all, you got mad at him and said that you give up.

Oh, and good job on the private message, really nice of you!

Walkalong
October 11, 2008, 08:22 PM
Your welcome. :)

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