[10-Ring]

Is the LE - only ammo out there any different/ better than the other self defense ammo out there? :confused: I can understand firearms or magazines being LE only, but why ammo?

[repsychler]

I think it's often a marketing gimmick. I don't think there's any great magic in a Ranger SXT (Formerly the Black Talon) that can't be had in a Hydro-Shok, Golden Saber or Win Silvertip.

Plus there's no law behind it, unlike mags marked LEO only, there's plenty of "LEO only" ammo that can be bought by anyone.

[owen]

LEO ammo is cheaper for police agencies, because they don't have to pay the tax on sporting goods (Pittmann-Robertson?) that is applied to non law enforcement ammo.

Or so I've been told

Owen

[CWL]

Certain types of ammo such as armor-piercing has no practical use for civilian applications.

Some ammo used for LE daily carry is designed to penetrate car windshields and car doors and would therefore not be that useful for civvies in SD situations -way too overpenetrative.

Other "LE-only" ammo is just marketing hype.

[cordex]

Certain types of ammo such as armor-piercing has no practical use for civilian applications.
There oughta be a law! I mean, if I don't need it or think it has a purpose, no law abiding citizen should have it. Simple as that.
Some ammo used for LE daily carry is designed to penetrate car windshields and car doors and would therefore not be that useful for civvies in SD situations -way too overpenetrative.
Yeah! Outlaw FMJ!

Another thing - those competition shotguns with the stock that attaches to a rig mounted on your chest ... zero civilian applications. Shooting at flying clay disks professionally? How absurd. Whoever heard of something so silly?
And those Remington shotgun slugs ... made out of solid copper?!? Why those would penetrate far too much for any lawful self-defense scenario.

If there's one thing we need more of, it's silly, arbitrary regulations, that's fer sure.

[ajacobs]

While some good point have been made, I would think that allot of leo only ammo is not do to marketing or special characteristics such as going through windows but becuase of the pressure of the cartridge. The logic is that a 9mm leo +p+ ammo is only going to be used in a modern firearm. I have not seen leo ammo (not to say that it doesn't exist) outside of armor peircing that was not advertised as having additional pressure.

[CWL]

Cordex, we certainly don't see eye-to-eye on this one. But I stand by my personal belief that there are certain loads which have no practical civilian applications. Armor-piercing is exactly that, KTW and THV ammo was designed to pierce vests and plate, I don't know what practical use there is beyond this. Yeah, if you are expecting to combat JBTs or UN-paratroopers, then perhaps.

Other rounds which are overpenetrative for civvie use are good for LEOs, how often would a civvie need to penetrate a windshield in order to kill the BG within? This ammo would not be as good for self-defense as already available quality JHPs designed to expand. Self defense firearms owners would be mistaken to believe that "cop bullet X" must be better because the cops get to use it, bullets must always default to what is the intended application.

As for your tangent about 'parts' -huh? You are welcome to strap whatever you want to yourself, I certainly don't give a hoot. But I do agree that shotguns would be the way to go if a BG needs to be perforated.

[tiberius]

Pollice carry guns for defense.

If they need it, then I might need it.

I don't know about where you live, but where I live the police ARE cilvilians.

[Cal4D4]

Question for LEOs...

Is any special armor piercing pistol ammo (KTW type for example)authorized for daily carry by non special duty officers?

[Standing Wolf]

If there's one thing we need more of, it's silly, arbitrary regulations, that's fer sure.

Well, give it ten or twenty minutes, and we'll probably have some.

[banzaijohn]

Typically, police ammo will use low flash powders and use sealed primers. There are also many +P+ loadings that arent generally available to the public. I have never seen, was issued, or carried any AP ammunition.

[Mannlicher]

CWL, where do you come up with this? "Certain types of ammo such as armor-piercing has no practical use for civilian applications.

Some ammo used for LE daily carry is designed to penetrate car windshields and car doors and would therefore not be that useful for civvies in SD situations -way too overpenetrative."

One thing that is counter productive here, are arbitrary statements on what 'civilians' need, or don't need.

I have never seen, or known a cop to carry AP rounds.

[Kcustom45]

I don't know about where you live, but where I live the police ARE cilvilians.
THANK YOU!!! Lets start by making one thing perfectly clear here. Police officers are civilians.

Now as far as police only ammo goes I think it is a promotional thing and maybe also for marketing. For example I know a guy who has a box of Winchester .308 Ranger match bullets. 168gr HP-BT bullets with the box reading "For law enforcement use only not for retail sale." I have compared the bullets with my own 168 HP-BT bullets and don't see any difference.

[JohnKSa]

CWL,

1. I'm not aware of any police who carry AP pistol ammo. This is why the California shootout went on until the cops finally acquired some rifles.

2. I AM aware of at least one case where home invaders wore bullet proof vests, and as a result killed the armed homeowner who fought back and hit them several times to no effect due to their body armor.

You seem to believe that police need AP to deal with criminals--I don't disagree.

You also seem to believe that citizens don't need AP to deal with criminals.

Is that because criminals who use body armor only prey on police officers?

Or is it because citizens should be helpless against criminals smart enough to buy a bullet proof vest?

But don't let me put words in your mouth... Why is it you believe that citizens shouldn't be able to own AP?

[banzaijohn]

The short answer to your question is no, there are no differences other than the addition of a flash retardant; why that makes the ammunition LE only I dont know. The Winchester SXT and Ranger SXT are the same round, other than they use to coat the Ranger Bullet with an evil black coating and the addition of flash retardant to the powder. If you compare the velocities of the SXT and Ranger SXT, you'll note a 5 fps increase in the Ranger; not because of different powder or loading, but because the addition of flash retardant increases the volume inside of the case resulting in minute pressure increases and an additional 5fps. Now Winchester and other manufactures produce rounds that they designate for LE use only, such as the 127 gr Ranger SXT 9mm +P+ or the Federal 9BP/LE 115 gr +P+, or a .45 +P loading of the Ranger SXT - - they sell these to LE must likely because they know the rounds will be used in modern firearms that SHOULD be receiving proper maintenance.

They sell these rounds much cheaper to LE agencies; I dont think LE is exempt from the excise tax however. Ammunition is usually purchased off a state contract. For instance every year CA sends out a bullentin asking LE agencies if they would like to procure ammunition, cars, and other equipment from a standarized list. All the local agencies get in on the state contract and by virtue of volume, the costs are drastically reduced. I think last year, the cost for 1k rounds of Winchester .45 ball was $136 ( and no, they dont let individual officers buy ammunition off of the contract, otherwise I would have bought about 10k rounds at that price). I HTH

[Jeff OTMG]

Speaking for RBCD LE only ammo. The slugs are of a blended metal and some of the LE slugs contain tungsten which makes the slug hard enough that when driven at sufficient velocity will penetrate ballistic armor. There are some versions of the LE ammo available to the public called the 'Tactical' line which has had the tungsten removed thereby making the slug 'softer' and unable to penetrate the armor at the listed velocity. All RBCD civilian ammo is BATF approved for sale to the public. There are some rounds which are not available except to the department, divisions, or agencies who funded the development. That is generally part of the contract. If you want to fund development of a load and give the us the required specifications you would have the right to ask that it not be sold to anyone else. This is how the .450 Bond Super round was developed, it is only available through Bond Arms. We have also done some rifle rounds that are not available to the public for the same reason, though a couple were prohibited by BATF. There is one .50 BMG round that is not sold simply because there would be no legitimate public use for it and it could be extremely dangerous to people were it fired by a careless shooter.

[cordex]

There is one .50 BMG round that is not sold simply because there would be no legitimate public use for it
The Raufoss round? Or maybe Birdman's Nuke50?
"No legitimate public use" is a very dangerous mindset.
Banning something because you don't have a legimate use for it is the same mindset as those who wish to ban machine guns or suppressors or assault weapons or pocket rockets or junk guns or sniper rifles or pump shotguns or youth rifles or bb guns or slingshots or rubber bands.
and it could be extremely dangerous to people were it fired by a careless shooter.
*laugh*
As opposed to regular, harmless 647 grain projos, right? Or are those just "mildly dangerous"?

[355sigfan]

Ranger 45 acp in the 230 +p load is much better than the hyda shock and a bit better than the Golddot and Saber rounds. It expands to .79 caliber in bare gelatin and goes 13.2 inches deep. It expands to .78 in the 4 layer denim test that clogs hydra shocks and goes 15.2 inches. It expands to .78 caliber in the heavy clothing test and goes 15.7 inches. It expands to .75 caliber in gelatin after going though wall board and goes 13.8 inches. It expands to .77 caliber and goes 14.6 inches in the plywood test. It expands to .53 caliber and goes 20.6 inches in the steel barrier test. it expands to .60 caliber and penetrated 13.6 inches after passing though windshield glass. Many other 45 loads do as well in some of these areas. None I know of match it as well in all areas. The +p load has over 500 footpounds. The standard pressure version is not that bad either.
Pat

[Shawn Dodson]

The Winchester SXT and Ranger SXT are the same round... No, they are not. The bullets are different too.

The Ranger T/SXT has the talon claws. The Winchester Supreme SXT does not.

The Ranger T/SXT is designed to reliably expand when tested against the IWBA spec four layer denim test. The Winchester Supreme SXT is not, and does not possess the same expansion reliability.

To answer the original poster's question: Some LE only handgun ammunition, such as Winchester Ranger T and Federal Tactical, are the best of the best.

[10-Ring]

If it's better, then what makes it so evil that it's not readily available to the civilian market?

[4v50 Gary]

Winchester restricted the Black Talon to LEO in the wake of the 101 California shooting in San Francisco (Gian Ferri - sp). To be released from the lawsuit, Winchester agreed not to market it to civilians anymore.

For other ammo, epecially the +p+, it's restricted because the mfg has no means to ensure that it will not be used in a firearm that cannot safely handle it. By selling it to LE, the mfg is assured that it will be used only in firearms cleared by the agency and inspected by the departmental armorer. With civilians, there's no guarantees for compliance and if there's a ka-boom, the mfg will spend thousands defending themselves in a suit for introducing into the stream of commerce products that are "unsafe to use."

As consolation though, the bullet thing isn't really much if you're a handloader. You can load hotter than the factory, but then liability is strictly your own. Secondly, Dr. Marvin Fackler asserts that the Black Talon is no more deadly than any other bullet.

[Jeff OTMG]

The .50 BMG is EXTREMELY dangerous. The velocities are so high that if the slug passes within a couple of feet of a prairie dog the pressure wave behind the bullet kills it as the bullet goes by. In other words it kills things without hitting them. I can't imagine what you would hunt with it. We already had one guy that wanted to sue because the regular .50 BMG ruined all the meat in his elk on a guided hunt. It was developed under contract, but I don't know why it was asked for. Legally there is no prohibition from selling it, but you won't see it for sale.

[BeLikeTrey]

Not sure about whether or not AP is carried by many LEO's and don't wanna get into the fray here. But from what I understand, rifles are pretty much AP as far as body armor is concerned isn't it? As I remember, in the Califonia body armored bank robber incident, the cops hit up the gun shops for rifles didn't they? I'm also not so sure I want anything AP in a handgun anyway. I think AP is more of a liability, legally, for LEO AND civies.(It's the old lady down the street, getting hit scenario) I would much rather have the control and sureity of placement with a rifle in putting something out there with some penetrating power. Only an opinion... No ruffled feathers please. :scrutiny:

[Ian]

The velocities are so high that if the slug passes within a couple of feet of a prairie dog the pressure wave behind the bullet kills it as the bullet goes by. :scrutiny: The muzzle velocity of most .50BMG bullets (excluding the sabot ones) is right around 3000 fps from a 45" barrel - your average .223 bullet goes faster, not to mention the many high-velocity wildcats. Further more, there isn't a 'pressure wave' travelling behind the bullet, the pressure from firing radiates out from the muzzle of the gun and travels a good deal slower than the bullet (and dissipates at a rate equal to the square of its distance from the muzzle, meaning that it doesn't go very far).

There is one .50 BMG round that is not sold simply because there would be no legitimate public use for it This could well be the true, cordex. If it were put on the market and didn't sell, one could conclude that it had no legit public use. :)

[Jeff OTMG]

RBCD has a 200 grain .50 BMG that hits about 6000 fps depending on the rifle that is available to the public and a non-lethal pressure wave. It is a sabot load as is the one that is much faster. The 450gr slug is at 3700 fps. Any slug travelling faster than the speed of sound is breaking the sound barrier all the way to the target and there is a pressure wave coming off the nose of the bullet.

I just thought of another RBCD .50 BMG that BATF prohibited from sale to the public. The slug was made with a large hollow cavity in the base. BATF claimed people could load explosives in the base and would not approve it for sale. The slug was redesigned with a more blunt nose, which move the rotational center of the slug further back thereby filling in the cavity to their liking.

[banzaijohn]

Looks like I was wrong. After reading Shawn Dodson's post about the difference btwn Ranger T/SXT and the SXT I went and looked at a box of SXT at the local gunshop. Sure enough, the bullets are similar, but the Ranger's jacket has an approximately 3/16 inch cut through the juction of each petal. Sorry for the misinformation (me bad). I thought it was absurd to sell different ammo to LE and civilians, but hell what do I know.

Thanks for the correction Shawn.:banghead:

[BluesBear]

BATF claimed people could load explosives in the base and would not approve it for sale.

I wonder what the BATFE thinks about people who own both a loading press and a drill press? Or a Dremel?

Hmmm ... but then I suppose that having "BATFE" and "thinks" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Aren't 12 gauge Forrester type slugs made with a big hollow base?


Regarding the person shooting Prarie Dogs with a .50 cal.... and missing...
Are you sure the Dog didn't laught itself to death?