[Desertdog]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/09/12/article_mi_standoff.htm
MI: Possible Armed Standoff in the Making
By The Sierra Times

Alanson, MI - "I've had enough. I'm going to fight!" Charlevoix County Businessman, Lyle Barkley, has been ordered to remove two manufactured homes from a 4-acre parcel in Bay Township by September 18. Barkley says he will not comply with the illegal and unconstitutional order of the court but will defend his property with arms if necessary. Barkley, 55, owns B&B Excavating in Boyne City. He is presently bulldozing fortifications around his property in preparation for the standoff he promises will come if officials attempt to remove the homes from his land.
His cause has drawn the attention of Rick Stanley, leader of an organization called Mutual Defense Pact 2d American Revolution Militia who offers to send more than 600 armed defenders to Barkley's aid once the standoff has begun.

Barkley contacted Norm Olson, a well-know Michigan Militia figure for help up until Stanley's organization arrives. Olson has urged citizens throughout Michigan to become aware of what is taking place and to speak out in an attempt to forestall or stop armed conflict. "Lyle Barkley is unlikely to run. He's preparing to defend. I admire his spirit," Olson said in a news release Thursday, but added, "This situation stinks of crooked politics, corruption, and favors. Barkley was given permission. He acted accorded to the permits, and then, when his homes were on the property, the permits were withdrawn and the homes 'red-tagged.' Something about this isn't right."

Background: Lyle Barkley received authorization to place two 12x60 manufactured homes (mobile homes) on 4 acres in Bay Township. Permits were granted by the County. Once on the property, Barley began a building project to join the two homes via an enclosed walkway. It was then that former township supervisor, "Bud" Chipman filed a complaint to stop further construction and have the homes removed. (Chipman was recalled from his position. Reason unknown).

County Court Judge May found in favor of Chipman's complaint and issued an order to Barkley to remove the homes by September 18th.

Barkley's decision: To bulldoze revetments and redoubts for defenders.

[Devonai]

Has he already exhausted all appeals available to him? Can't an injunction be filed to delay the deadline?

Why can't Mr. Barkley simply remove the covered walkway and call it good?

As much as I despise the idea of the government telling anybody what they can or can't build on their own property, this seems like a pretty stupid reason to get into an armed standoff.

And we all know how well the government handles those. :rolleyes:

[jimpeel]

That is the busiest friggin' webpage I have ever seen! What a mess. You would have to read non-stop to the end of your days to read it all; so when would you ever have time to revolt?

[NIGHTWATCH]

This is what the 2A is about folks. Not working through the court system begging politicians to recognize their wrongs, and "hope" they do. This man has chosen to fight for his property and rights and God bless him for it. :)

[mvpel]

As much as I despise the idea of the government telling anybody what they can or can't build on their own property, this seems like a pretty stupid reason to get into an armed standoff.

The word is PRINCIPLE. If they have the power to bulldoze a building on your own property, there is no stopping them - you don't own your property, you're just renting it from the Almighty State, and you're no better than a medieval serf.

[Sergeant Bob]

Barkley contacted Norm Olson, a well-know Michigan Militia figure for help up until Stanley's organization arrives.

This Norm Olson?

The New World Order (http://www.officialnewworldorder.com/html/norm_olson.html)

Norm Olson, founder of the Michigan Militia, nearly brought the New World Order to its knees in 1995. Following the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, Olson (who was still “Commander" of the Michigan Militia) publicly charged that the New World Order had carried out the attack through the auspices of the Japanese government.

”I had to say either the Japanese or aliens," he told the Detroit News (July 31, 1995), an indication that he knew our plot in Oklahoma had involved both Japan and the ”Grey" aliens.

Obviously, we were quite upset that our best-laid plans had been discovered by this ardent defender of truth and justice, and we set out right away to salvage the situation. Fortunately, we were able to arrange for his dismissal from the Michigan Militia and replace him with our own puppet government.

Undaunted, Olson formed his own group, the ”Northern Michigan Regional Militia," and continues to be a thorn in our side despite the fact that even loyalists in the Michigan Militia have told the media “he's nuts." Just recently, Olson discovered our secret underground concentration camp in Soo Locks, Michigan. (And we thought those air vents sticking up from the ground might possibly be mistaken for World War 2-era steam pipes . . . ) Yes, if there is one person who stands between us and total domination of the planet, it is Norm Olson.

UPDATE:
Olson “decommissioned” the “Northern Michigan Regional Militia” in May, 2001 citing a “lack of interest.” Tens of people around the world were disappointed, and one or two of them may suspect what we already know: the New World Order had struck again! Sadly, Norm continues to spread the gospel of our domination through internet newsgroups and “talks” he gives to groups around the country. Even without his personal army behind him, he is still a force to be reckoned with.

Sure hope he's not planning to use him as a character reference.:what:

[Henry Bowman]

"Remove them or else!"

"Or else what? Or else you'll kill me?"

"Yes."

________________

"Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in," said Sen. Feinstein.

"Or else what?"

"Or else we'll take them. By force, if necessary."

"And kill me?"

"Don't say that. Why do you have to bring up violence?"

[El Tejon]

Henry, well, kill him or imprison him.

On what basis did they withdraw the permits? Can they withdraw the permits under Michigun law? Are they alleging fraud (did not tell them he was going to join the trailers)? What's the beef, chief?

[tyme]

Who cares who he contacted? If former alien abductees want to help oppose the government when it overruns its duties (if that's in fact what it's doing), who cares if some probably-crazy people want to help, as long as they don't have a history of hurting people without justification?

[tyme]

http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0309/13/metro-269551.htm

BAY TOWNSHIP, Mich. -- (AP) A Michigan property owner is promising an armed confrontation with anyone who attempts to enforce a judge's order to remove three manufactured homes from his land.

Judge Richard May of Charlevoix County District Court ruled Aug. 28 that the homes' placement violated Bay Township zoning ordinances and ordered them removed by next Thursday.

"We're going to have a standoff," Lyle Barkley, 55, told the Traverse City Record-Eagle. "I'm not going to let them come in here and take this stuff. Over my dead body."

County Sheriff George T. Lasater said while he does not want any violence, the threat of it will not prevent him from carrying out the judge's order.

"I'll do everything possible to come to a peaceful resolution of this situation, so nobody gets hurt on either side," he said. "But rest assured, I'll do my job, and I will follow the orders of the court."

The dispute centers on Barkley's placement of two, 12-by-60-foot mobile homes on the property and a 24-by-34-foot trailer originally built as a portable school classroom.

Barkley said he considers the two mobile homes to be additions to two existing trailers on the property. He and his wife, Shirley, live in one of the existing homes. His daughter, Kimberly, her boyfriend and three children live in the other.

Barkley's son and his family live in the former portable classroom.

After initially receiving zoning permits from the township in summer 2002, Randy Frykberg, the township's zoning administrator, revoked them last November. Frykberg said the Barkleys applied to build additions, not to add additional mobile homes.

Although May sided with the township in an April court decision, Barkley went ahead and installed the three additional trailers over the summer.

On Aug. 28, the judge ruled that Lyle Barkley, Shirley Barkley and Kimberly Barkley were in contempt of court. He ordered the buildings removed by Thursday and imposed an $800 fine.

Each of the Barkleys faces 26 days in jail if the fine is not paid, also by Thursday.

"I won't pay it," Lyle Barkley said. "If I pay it, it's the same as saying I'm guilty."

[tyme]

... and another one... it sounds like the homes were built/purchased before the final decision on zoning was made...

http://www.record-eagle.com/2003/sep/12dig.htm

excerpts:

A county district court judge has ordered by Thursday the removal of three manufactured homes from four acres on Camp Daggett Road. The family who owns the property is vowing an armed confrontation with anyone who attempts to enforce the judge's order.
...
Charlevoix County Sheriff George T. Lasater said he hopes violence can be avoided.
"I'll do everything possible to come to a peaceful resolution of this situation, so nobody gets hurt on either side," he said. "But rest assured, I'll do my job, and I will follow the orders of the court."
The dispute involves the placement by the Barkleys of two, 12-by-60-foot mobile homes on the property, and a 24-by-34-foot former school portable. Barkley said two of the units are additions onto two existing mobile homes on the property, one of which Barkley lives in with his wife, Shirley; and another in which his daughter, Kimberly, her boyfriend and three children live. Barkley's son, Ken, and family live in the third - the school portable unit.
After initially receiving zoning permits from Bay Township in the summer of 2002, the permits were revoked by township zoning administrator Randy Frykberg that November.
Frykberg said Thursday the Barkleys had initially applied for additions, not to add additional mobile homes. Township attorney James Murray said no township or city in the state would allow the sandwiching of a manufactured house on an already nonconforming structure under zoning.
"It's a very basic question - it's a health, safety and welfare question," Murray said. "This is simply a case of abiding by zoning, and abiding by the construction code. (Barkley) blatantly disregarded both."
Barkley, however, countered that he was willing to make any changes necessary to bring the buildings up to code. He was never given that chance, he said.
After Judge Richard May's ruling in April siding with the township, Barkley said he went ahead and installed the manufactured homes on his property over the summer.

[hammer4nc]

Ahh, yes...administrative law, "zoning" regulations subchapter. One of the best tools for socialist states to control their citizens. Boiled frog analogy...most frogs not notice the slight increase in heat.

Compare zoning regulations 20 years ago and today...progress?

[C.R.Sam]

"It's a very basic question - it's a health, safety and welfare question," Crock. It is a power and money question.

Sam

[Baba Louie]

Sounds like he's building a... "COMPOUND"... (shudder) and we all know what happens if you live in a "COMPOUND" unless you're a Kennedy or a Bush.

As tornadoes hate mobile home parks, gov'ts hate compounds and those who reside therein.

An aside; building dept officials have the same power as LEO when it comes to violations of codes or so it says in the Uniform Building Code... I'll have to check out the new "International" Building Code that America is adopting, but with that name change from Uniform to International, you can almost bet its a sure thing.

City, County and State officials could always do the old eminent domain thing on him, happens all the time (WTC site was E.D.'d back in the 60's for Port Authority ownership development)

C.R. Sam hit the nail on the head once again as per usual.

Adios

[Devonai]

Although May sided with the township in an April court decision, Barkley went ahead and installed the three additional trailers over the summer.

So, he broke the law and now he's prepared to fight to the death? :rolleyes:

Let me say again: The government should have nothing to say about what you can build on your own land as long as it has no bearing on your neighbor's land or well being. I'm a libertarian, not an anarchist.

In all parts of life, you need to know how to choose your battles. If you're going to flaunt your disregard for the law, you'd better be willing to face the consequences. Preparing to shoot to kill over a zoning ordinance is stupid, to say the least.

[jimpeel]

Sounds like he's building a... "COMPOUND"... Burn, baby, burn!

[LawDog]

Am I understanding this correctly? This old boy has 4 acres of land upon which he has located two trailer houses.

He applies for a permit to construct an addition for each trailer house. A permit is granted to allow him to build an addition on each trailer house.

So, permit warmly in paw, the old boy goes and gets not only two 12-foot by 60 foot mobile homes, but also a portable school classroom, and plonks all of the above down on the lot - for a total of four trailer houses/mobile homes and a portable school classroom.

Four trailer houses and/or mobile homes and a portable school classroom, when the contract (permit) he entered into with the township was actually for just two trailers with built-on additions.

Is this about what we've got here?

LawDog

[Sir Galahad]

So, then all the anti-gun rhetoric about gun owners turning into vigilantes and shooting people over very little might actually have some merit to it after all. After all the spiels about responsible gun ownership and here are people cheering on this big black eye for gun owners. So, any time you disagree with the law, you can just pick up your gun and fight it? Isn't that what CRIMINALS do every day? Got a jaywalking ticket? Why, that interferes with your Gawd-given right to walk where you please! Grab your AR and go hose down city hall! Then tell the media what a "responsible" gun owner you are. Hey, look! Here comes the census taker! The gubbiment has no right to that info because they'll give it to ZOG! Quick, shoot him before he reaches into his files!

By this logic, the Symbionese Liberation Army was right in their standoff. Yeah, we LUV you Tania! :rolleyes:

[geegee]

Did you see this one? Over at AssaultWeb, they're calling out the Militia:

http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=25;t=000280
Yikes! geegee

[LawDog]

Oh, Judas tapdancing Priest!

Walter Mitty lives!

Cry, "havoc!", and let slip the chihuahuas of war! :banghead:

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, my blood pressure can't take that sort of link anymore.

LawDog

[Sir Galahad]

And people like Rick Stanley will lead people to their deaths, believing they were dying for some "noble cause" while, he, himself, opts for suicide or runs away cowering. Like Adolf Hitler. Well, Stanley can do his own imitation of the Beer Hall Putsch, but I hope he takes the first bullet and people realize that the are following a would-be tyrant. Calling out armed resistance over this is ridiculous. But people like Adolf Hitler have to have their Horst Wessels, don't they? They need their Reichstag fires. Well, anyone who answers his "call to arms" is not anyone I'll miss if the balloon goes up and they get taken out. And they will get taken out if they do what he says. Dupes led by a madman.

[geegee]

Wouldn't that be great "reality TV"? To see some guy mowing his lawn when the phone rings and it's his local "commander," calling to say it's time to drop the Toro and put on his BDU's? A few miles away, a parent in the stands of a Little League game gets the same message? All the while, these guys must be thinking The Trilateral Commission and the CFR have finally begun to mobilize all the "Blue Helmets." :what:

This mission in the making ought to really test the level of commitment to the militia. geegee

[TheeBadOne]

From that link...
To all patriots/militia planning to engage the enemy shortly. . .

Everyone needs to know the possibilities mentioned in the message below.
When Rick Stanley's Alert mentioned targeting County infrastructure, the
door was immediately opened to the Homeland Security Forces to intervene.
It is my thought that Sheriff George Lasater's statements in the paper
(see www.petoskeynews.com cover story) were based upon his coordination
with forces of the Federal Government. He said in the paper that he would not
back down. This is a bold statement which he and his deputies would not make
casually. I know Sheriff Lasater and he is not one to rush wildly into a certain
massacre. He has trump cards which he is not revealing and those trump cards
are marked, "Tom Ridge and Company"
It is for this reason also that I highly recommend that only a squad sized
contingent stay on sight with reserves ready to be brought in if fighting breaks
out. I DO NOT recommend that hundreds of patriots cluster on Mr. Barkley's
four acres. I do suspect that the latest weapons will be deployed against the
militia and the Barkleys if any open hostilities erupt, including nerve agents,
EMP devices, Sound weapons, and other crowd control disabling weapons.
I guarantee that if shooting starts, the force against the patriots will be
increased many fold very quickly. It would be wise to have reserves and
reinforcements ready to aid our forces under fire.
We need the wisdom of a gifted combat experienced operations officer
who knows how avoid certain disaster and how to deploy forces properly.
This is no place for the novice or for the hero who may want to accomplish
great things only to die in the first volley.

This whole event will quickly take on it's own momentum. I know we all
want to be around for the victory parade and personally, I'd rather write
history than be history.

:rolleyes:

[Sir Galahad]

Why do I suspect Rick Stanley fits this profile:

NAME: Rick Stanley
AGE: 39
MARITAL STATUS: Never and no prospects
SEX: Never and no prospects
MILITARY BACKGROUND: None, but he knew a real green beret once.
RACE: Allegedly human
ADDRESS: His mom's house
OCCUPATION: Sour cream shooter operator at Taco Bell; part-time pizza delivery vehicle operator for Domino's Pizza.
FAMILY BACKGROUND: Family tree has a one root, one trunk and one branch. You do the math.
VALUABLE SKILLS: Knows lots of real professional militia operators on his shift at Taco Bell and Domino's Pizza. Networks with the other militia operators working at Burger King, Wendy's, and McDonald's. Has access to reserve militia operators at Del Taco, Kenucky Fried Chicken, Jethro's House of Chicken and Pizza, and Blockbuster Video.
COMBAT SKILLS: Can incapacitate an entire crowded room after only 2 bowls of chili with beans.
WEAPONS: A real SEAL knife he got from the mall; the top secret "made in China" one. A Ruger 10/22 he got at the pawn shop (had to lie to mom about his room rent money for that one.) One Kentucky Fried Chicken spork, made of plastic to defeat metal detectors. Fifteen rounds of ammo he found at the range; various calibers.

[seeker_two]

If these are our allies, then our enemies must be laughing in their jackboots... :banghead:

Moral of the story: Choose your battles wisely... :rolleyes:

[SkunkApe]

NAME: Rick Stanley
AGE: 48
MARITAL STATUS: Married to wife Pam for 13 years (she's a pretty good looker.
SEX: well, he has three children...
MILITARY BACKGROUND: U.S. Army - 1972-1975
RACE: Allegedly human
OCCUPATION: owner of Stanley Fasteners & Shop Supply - serving the fleet maintenance, plant maintenance, building maintenance, and construction industries for 27 years. Business web site: www.stanleyfasteners.com

See his bio here:

http://www.stanley2002.org/bio.htm

[Sir Galahad]

Rick Stanley---still a loser and leader of losers. Guy thinks he's a freakin' Field Marshall. I sure appreciate knowing he owns Stanley Fasteners, though. I'll make sure never to buy anything from there.

[SkunkApe]

Seems like he's in lockstep with most HighRoaders on the major issues:

http://www.stanley2002.org/issues.htm

I'm glad he's not a farmer-general.

[Sir Galahad]

So? There are plenty of radicals on this board who probably harbor desires of shooting people they don't like and camoflage it under being "liberators". Lockstep is right. Lockstep with every other tyranny that started out trying to "liberate" the people.

[SkunkApe]

I sure hope all ends well.

[BeLikeTrey]

Instead of dying for this stupidity, why don't these 600 militia men go and help him actually build the additions that he was actually supposed to build. It would be helping this man in a peaceful manner and still showing support for him. Not to mention his place won't look like a mobile home park.:banghead: :banghead: There is a much better way to do things and still save face. Not to mention make gun owners look like a tight knit group without looking like a tight knit group of gun toting psycho's. Sheesh lets not give the left a reason to hate gun owners more!!! No more ammo for te left please!! Show them our peaceful and intelligent side. (steps down off the soap box)

[rock jock]

Not working through the court system
Whoa! We don't work through the court system anymore? Anytime we have a gripe we just start shooting? Uh, this is called mob rule, facism, might-makes-right, whatever. Is there a chance we're not getting the whole story?

FWIW, I heard Rick Stanley speak at CounterAttack. A bigger egomaniac you won't find. He is headed for his martyrdom for sure. Anybody who follows him is a fool IMO.

[Roadkill Coyote]

Of course you realize, if enough of these whackjobs show up to make a full blown fiasco, they may single-handedly get the AWB reauthorized.
Think about it... :cuss:
To you and I, it may seem like a farce veering towards tradgedy, but if it goes south, to those who want to save the ban, it will be the opportunity of a lifetime.

[agricola]

ooh a war blog

http://lylebarkley.blogspot.com/

on which Olson is styling himself as: Norm Olson, Senior Advisor
Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines... is this the first confirmed picture of him?

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/reddawnroberttt.jpg

:D

[edit: i couldnt leave without including the link below:

http://www.officialnewworldorder.com/html/history.html ]

[SaintofKillers]

Why is are some of you attacking this guy on a personal level, his family tree, he works at Taco Bell and such. You dont even know the guy, I dont agree with his idealogy of an armed conflict over a building permit but I am not going to attack the guy personally and say he is some dumb backwards country bumpkin redneck. Hell, I fit that description to some people. Why is that everytime someone takes a stand all of a sudden he is a wacko, Randy Weaver was a wacko, Koresch, Wacko, Thomas Jefferson, Wacko anyone who thinks that the govt is doing them wrong, Wacko, anyone who thinks that Ashcroft is violating peoples civil rights, Wacko. I guess I must be one too because although I dont believe everything that the above people listed believe or believed, I am sure that in the heart they think that they were doing the right thing. I am sure all of you armchair generals would have ran to Ruby Ridge or Waco to stop the goings on there. We all know that the govt never does anything wrong or oversteps boundries or violates peoples rights. Things I want to say to you guys right now would get me kicked off this board, grow up and dont pass judgement based on something you read on the internet.:cuss:

[Ian Sean]

Why is are some of you attacking this guy on a personal level

Thanks for saying it first Saint, but I'll second it, maybe it depends on post count?

Hell, I fit that description to some people

Same here.

Things I want to say to you guys right now would get me kicked off this board,

No need to do all that but I am a little peeved too.

[Al Norris]

This is just great. A classic case of He said, she said. Under ordinary circumstances, it's hilarious.

He said he filed the permit and they were granted. They said he did work that wasn't on the permits. He said, yes it was. They said you violated such and so. He asked for clarification so as to ammend the permits. They wouldn't answer...he says. Court says he violated building permits, remove the offending buildings. He says he didn't violate; he says they wouldn't clarify the violation for him to ammend. Court says, remove the buildings or face contempt. Court says, this is un-appealable. He says, "ptooey," right in their eyes. Court says, Sheriff, remove the buildings. He says, over my dead body.

Norm Olson, after taking a trashing from the militia community over the death of Scott Woodring back in July (remember him? Wrongly accused of soliciting minors. Had his home burned out, escaped and shot to death a few days later?), says they (MMCW) will come to Barkley's Rescue. Meanwhile, Barkley is also working with the Michigan Constitutional Militia so as to file some kind of papers in Court on Monday. Meanwhile, Rick Stanley, of Colorado, begins to assemble support troops from other various militia groups and lets it be known that they will disable the communities infrastructure. Meanwhile, the Sheriff makes a pronouncement that they will obey the court with whatever it takes. Meanwhile, Tom Ridge declares domestic terrorism and martials his troops in "support" of the sheriff and to counter Rick Stanleys attempts at sabotage (which Stanley backs off from, but too late. The designation sticks).

The Wolverines have stated that they will be encamped within the compound that Barkley (a vietnam vet, SP5, combat engineer) is building and will have up to 150 people inside. Rick Stanley has called an alert for something called the "Mutual Defense Pact 2nd American Revolution Militia," and advised that up to 670 members will surround the outside of the compound, encircling the State and Fed people.

And here you folks are laughing at all of this. I think I might have joined you had I not followed all the links available and got some sense of where this all might be headed. If this all collaspses before the 18th, then all well and good. But if neither side backs down.... If the Sheriff, indeed is backed up by Homeland Security.... If the militias are actually gathering (and indications are that there are already a score of people at Barkley's compound)....

You all can come to your own conclusions. I don't see this as a laughing matter.

[Sir Galahad]

Saint of Killers, it's SATIRE. Hell-lo! You want to talk "armchair generals"? Well, Stanley IS one. This is a guy who sends misled dupes out to die for the dumbest of reasons. This is Hitler, 1945, sending the Hitler Youth and Volksturm out to die in order to give him more time to steel his nerves to bite the cyanide capsule. Yes, he is a WACKO. What, we have to be POLITICALLY CORRECT like the liberals: "Oh, who are we to judge? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." It's all morally relative." "Don't call him a wacko, I suppose you'll say Idi Amin was a wacko next." Whine, whine...

SofK, this is a man who is seizing on this to make a name or himself. He is no different than someone else who wanted to make his name immortal by breaking the law: Charles Manson. Both want(ed) to set themselves up as some quasi-god, all the while claiming to be something, in their heart of hearts, they assuredly are NOT. Yes, I say the man is mentally unstable. Probably suffers from the same messianic megalomania coupled with paranoiac delusions that both Hitler and Stalin suffered from. Stanley would probably loves twenty foot high photos and 100 foot high statues of himself all over America, er, Stanleyica. Read your history, SofK, despots never die. They just get reborn. So, if you want to defend a despot who just doesn't have the means to shove all those he doesn't like into concentration camps right now, feel free. But I will not shirk from calling a spade a spade. Or, in politically-correct poker, can you call a spade a diamond if you need another diamond to fill your flush?:rolleyes:

[scottgun]

SirGal, you keep comparing Stanley to Hitler. Now that is absolutely ridiculous. Is there a personal grudge? We all seem to believe in freedom, yet when someone acts upon their principles they are wackos. One may disagree with his ideas or his actions, but to pull the "hitler card"?

Barkley obviously took advantage of, or over stepped his zoning permit. He exhausted his legal avenues, or most likely is too obstinate to follow legal procedures.. Should the government call out the forces over a citizen not following a zoning ordinance? Should someone take up arms to protect their private property rights? In theory yes, but this case doesn’t quite fit the bill. It’s an escalation of force that might be better solved by a certified letter and not barricades and tear gas.

It’s cases like this that show peoples true colors.

[Ian]

Sri Galahad - I don't particularly like Stanley either, but let's be accurate here. He's not "sending" anyone out to do anything. Everyone planning to take part in this thing is doing so voluntarily, so far as I see. They may well be dupes, fools, or whatever, but their decisions are being made of their own free will.

Rock jock - As with Carl Drega, it sounds like the court system has been extensively used already.

Like Mr Norris, I don't think this should be taken as a joke. This thing could have some pretty serious aftereffects if shooting does break out, no matter how trivial the initial grievance is.

[LawDog]

Should the government call out the forces over a citizen not following a zoning ordinance?

And where are these gov't forces? The only gov't involvement at this time is the Sheriff saying that he'll handle it.

It’s an escalation of force that might be better solved by a certified letter and not barricades and tear gas.

The only 'escalation of force' at this time does not involve the gov't. Barricades? Show me the news item where the Sheriff is building barricades. Tear gas? Did I miss something here?

Unless someone can show me any different, the only thing I see is a bunch of militia Chicken Littles scrambling about muttering dark tactical veiled threats about the imminent falling of the sky, and desperately pumping a molehill into a mountain in order to justify their heroic last-stand fantasies.

Pfagh.

LawDog

[SaintofKillers]

Sir Galahad,
I am not one who has ever been accused of being politically correct to say the least, as for your comment that its satire, call it what you will it is a personal attack against the man. As I said I dont quite agree with the man but since when is a man a wacko when he decides that the govt is doing something to him that he feels is unjust and unfair. I guess when the feds come and say -sorry saint we have to take your farm from you because in the far southeast corner of your property is an endangered spotted earthworm that no one knew existed until about 10 seconds ago- I should just say- yea go ahead and take everything I have worked so hard for and I will just accept whatever the nice man from the fed says for fear that if I speak out people will label me a frickin WACKO. At least the guy has the guts to fight for what he thinks is right, and yes their are people that believe as he does that the govt is overstepping their boundries. I guess when the nazis came for the Jews you would have sat there and did nothing for fear of being called a wacko. I am not really sure why I write and call my senators and congressman anymore, you have changed my mind I must be one of those gun wielding wackos. I just need to accept reasonable gun control and reasonable stealing of my property by the govt, afterall the rest of the sheeple have accepted it why shouldnt I.:rolleyes:

[scottgun]

Quote(s):
"We're going to have a standoff," said Lyle Barkley, 55.
"He is presently bulldozing fortifications around his property in preparation for the standoff he promises will come if officials attempt to remove the homes from his land."

“County Sheriff George T. Lasater said while he does not want any violence, the threat of it will not prevent him from carrying out the judge's order.”

“Barkley has created an earthen berm on his property, and said he planned to create trenches as well, in preparation for a standoff.”

“I DO NOT recommend that hundreds of patriots cluster on Mr. Barkley's
four acres. I do suspect that the latest weapons will be deployed against the militia and the Barkleys if any open hostilities erupt, including nerve agents, EMP devices, Sound weapons, and other crowd control disabling weapons.”



Barkley, Stanley and company are bringing this upon themselves. This isn’t a full-fledged Waco yet, but that’s what it seems like they are aiming for. Lawdog you are correct, those things haven’t happened, yet. But speculating, it could easily go that way because of the actions of Barkley and his pals. They are asking for it. Will the gov’t (local, state, federal) oblige?

Barkley seems like a man who has had enough with the system, and has decided that he will defend his property and his home (err trailers) the best way that he knows how. Like how most everyone says they will defend their life, family and home. It doesn’t mean that he he’s right, but he's taking a stand.

[Ian]

I wonder if Barkley made sure to apply for a proper Permit for the Construction of Defensive Earthworks? :p

[feedthehogs]

Why should a person who already got permits(which is wrong) to do something on their property(already done at their expense) have to turn around and remove said property(again at their expense) at the whim of some power hungry, low life public official who has a Hitler complex and changes his mind like a women buying shoes, have to hire a lawyer(and spend his money) to fight against a legal system that uses his own money(tax dollars) against him?

I'm not one for killing, but damn it, it has to stop some where.
We all know how fair the legal system is for the average person, NOT!
Most give up and comply or go away silently.

Someone has to take a stand sooner or later.

[Sir Galahad]

Well, Saint of Killers, let's review some things according to your view. Since we should all just pick up a gun when the law doesn't work the way we want it to:

1.) October Revolution: Well, what's wrong with that? The Bolsheviks just got tired of the Czar, that's all. Law? What's that? Oh, but they were communists, so they are disqualified from being the heroes they would have been had they been right-wingers.

2.) Symbionese Liberation Army shotout: Down with The MAN, man! We luv you Tania! Up the Revolution! The SLA got tired of just taking crap from the government they hated, so they TOOK A STAND WITH GUNS. Oh, but they're LEFTISTS!! So that makes them automatically wrong! Now, had they been some militia right-wing "waa-waa-I-hate-the-government" types, they would have been heroes.

I find it rather remarkable that YOU expect the government to work within the law, but YOU can just discard the law when it does not work the way you want to. And pick up a gun to make it so. So, you want to set that precedent? I don't like your frickin' cat howling at night and the law won't help me. So, I shoot your cat to help myself. To retaliate, you shoot my dog. To retaliate for that, I burn your car. So you burn my house. So I burn your house. This is how the Hatfield-McCoy type feuds get started. This is what makes Africa such a volatile place---using guns to solve problems. Your point is hypocritical and childlike. Children think that they can just take the ball and go home because the teacher said it's actually the school's ball and everyone gets to play with it. The law belongs to everyone, SofK, not just you. Picking up a gun when the law does something you don't like just leads to everyone else doing the same. And this is "responsible gun ownership" how? This kind of thinking is exactly why some states are leery of granting CCW. They are afraid of the vigilantism you are espousing here. If one person might decide, forget the law, I'll solve this myself with my gun, then so will many other people. People quick to run to a firearm to solve a problem are not only cowards hiding behind a gun, they lack the courage of their convictions to make a stand without a gun and by working within the system or even by peaceful resistance. You think the Freedom Riders with Martin Luther King Jr. (oh, why am I bringing him up, he's one o' them commeenests) had it easy going through the Jim Crow South doing what they did? No, they didn't. But they did NOT pick up guns to solve the inequality that the law itself posed. They changed the system peacefully, preserved the rule of fair law at the same time, and did not cause a tit-for-tat system of white-on-black-black-on-white violence. Gandhi brought change from one of the world's greatest empires without firing a shot. Yes, there are times when one must defend oneself. But we are NOT living in a tyranny and anyone who thinks we are slaps the face of hundreds of millions of people who perished at the hands of REAL tyrannies by trivializing that wrd until it has no real meaning anymore. No one is shoving you into gas chambers. You are not being arrested for "counter-revolutionary statements" because you said state-baked bread was lousy. You are not being put to death because you have a Bible.

I compare Stanley to Hitler because this is how despots start out. Read your history. They all take advantage of a situation to create unrest and then profit personally from the resulting unrest. Either monetarily, through power, or by ego. Yes, there are lots of micro-despots in this country. I compare Stanley TO Hitler, but I did not say he IS Hitler. That is the difference.

So the guy has the "guts" to fight for what is right? No. He has the cowardice and lack of conviction to hide behind a gun instead of standing in FRONT of a podium and using his FIRST AMENDMENT rights to make his case. People are throwing the Constitution into every argument to make their case that the 2ndA "gives" them this "right" to use the gun to defy laws they don't personally like. But not one has the courage to use the 1st Amendment to defend their rights except to use the net to try and draw more people into the grave wth them. That's the thing about cowards; they don't like dying alone. They need other people there to die with them, all the while maintaining some twisted credo of "rugged individualism". Well, the Constitution does not guaruntee you that life is fair. And it does not say that if you use the 1st Amendment to speak out, that you are automatically going to win. But that's the chance you take to live in this nation. Armed thugs lording their personal opinions over everyone else at gunpoint is not an answer no matter who's doing it. Two wrongs do NOT make a right. And I am going to quote some liberals here when I say that an eye for an eye leads to blindness.

[Sir Galahad]

feedthehogs already made my point for me before I even posted my last reply. Well, FTH, it's amazing. The Bolsheviks were saying the same thing in 1917 about the "average guys". Except they used the word "proletariat". It's funny. You can take Das Kapital or the Communist Manifesto, replace the word "capitalism" with "federal government" and you'll have practically a word-for-word manifesto of what every Far Right militia type is saying. There really is nothing new under the sun.

[geegee]

Not to derail this lively exchange too much, but wouldn't you think some of the cable news channels would have picked up on some of this situation by now, or has absolutely nothing about this situation made it's way from the local news stations? It seems that this would be just the type of sensationilism that they hunger for, yet it doesn't appear to being reported, or am I just missing something? :confused: geegee

[scottgun]

And I am going to quote some liberals here when I say that an eye for an eye leads to blindness

Please do not quote any liberals. :o

[Sir Galahad]

Well, it was free.

[Black Snowman]

geegee, I imagine they have latched on but are waiting to make sure it resolves in favor of gun control before exposing it to the frail public.

[tyme]

beliketrey, it's too late for anyone to remove the trailers and build the additions as permitted... the zoning permits were revoked last November. It's unlikely he could get a permit allowing him to breathe until he removes the new additions and kisses the feet of those he's offended. And that will surely never happen.

as to the Stanley release:
Subject: Preliminary Militia Alert

Rick Stanley, Constitutional Activist, former U.S. Senate candidate, Enemy of
the State, and self avowed extremist on the order of our forefathers of America,
gives the following media release:

This preliminary Militia Alert for the Mutual Defense Pact 2nd American
Revolution Militia is in regard to the press release, immediately following this
alert. Two of our Pact members in Boyne City, Michigan may come under attack
soon. This is a bonafied constitutional defense issue.
"Bonafied?" Oh my. Constitutional activist indeed! So active he wouldn't notice an extremely common latin term if he tripped on one. What a maroon. Please tell me that Mr. Stanley didn't write that and the blame falls on some inexperienced volunteer.

[tyme]

Lawdog, allowing that this "over my dead body" stand may be absurd overreaction, baiting, etc., we all know what happens if people haven't prepared and don't have sufficient defenses in place before the government decides to act. The options pretty much boil down to 1) surrender or 2) die. Not that the third option is necessarily preferrable, but that option - "resist" - is no longer tenable once the government cordons off an area whose occupants are unprepared.

What's he going to do, wait until the sheriff shows up, refuse to surrender himself, then go out and dig a trench so some officers can go tackle him? If he doesn't dig the trench now, he might not be able to, ever.

Again, this is irrespective of whether a standoff is justified. It just seems silly to me to say that citizen actions in the face of authority must always be reactive, even if there is substantial reason to believe that government will take action to enforce illegitimate government interests.

[2dogs]

Maybe this guy is a wacko for standing his ground, I don't know. I can't say I'd do it. But the question comes to my mind- when is the time to stand and fight?

Was Randy Weaver right to stand and fight, or was he just a racist wacko?

Were the Branch Davidians right to stand and fight, or were they just religious wackos?

When the gummint comes for your guns will you stand and fight, and be called a gun nut wacko?

We now give half of everything we earn to the government by threat of force so they can give it to someone else, is it time to stand and fight, or does that make us tax wackos?

Your property is yours to do with as you please as long as big gummint approves, is that reason to stand and fight or are you some kind of property rights wacko? (Um, doesn't our whole way of life derive from property rights?)

When laws are used not to protect the rights of citizens, but to deprive them of their rights, is it time to stand and fight?

When they haul ALL of the government proclaimed wackos off in cattle cars- will that be the time to stand and fight?

Just wondering, I don't want to be the only one not in the know when the time comes.

End pontification.:p

[feedthehogs]

It seems it took a lot less of government intrusion to set our founding fathers upon their journey.
We have more laws and regulations then they ever thought of having.

We have been so conditioned to be tolerant and behave that we call those who stand up for their rights, wackos and nut jobs.

Doesn't anyone think that the founding fathers were just as moral and had a hard time deciding to take the lives of their oppressors?

I use the word oppressors because the island pond scum didn't just show up one day and attack the US. They did it slowly by heavy-handed ruling.

Just because there are laws and regulations on the books, it doesn't make them right.
Most were passed by politicians and lawyers who stood to benefit from them or they decided what was best for everyone.

Some are even more concerned over a possible AWB problem over someone’s personal rights and freedoms.

The politicians have us feeling so grateful for what we have that we have forgotten what they have taken away from us.

I could be facing a possible eminent domain seizure of my land for a developer who wants the property to build million dollar homes.
The tax revenue generated would far out way the tax revenue generated now and I know the county would do it under some trumped up reason.

I don't want to sell. Period. I have a right to this land I have lived on for twenty years.
I won't fight it in court because it's dead wrong to take someone’s land. Period.
Why should I have to fight to keep my land?

What will I do? I don't know for sure but I have some ideas. It may never happen I hope.

You see most will never understand until the government intrudes into their nice comfortable LAZY boy chairs.

[agricola]

hogs,

use the word oppressors because the island pond scum didn't just show up one day and attack the US.

no, the "island pond scum" had been there since the early seventeenth century, and the US rebelled because their rights as "island pond scum" were not being recognized.

just because you are annoyed kindly do not make snide remarks about my nation, or i will be forced to find your predicament amusing.

[suijurisfreeman]

feedthehogs is absolutley correct, until it's your property rights being violated, whereof do you speak? I almost posted last night, but was just too tired so I let it go. But I know whereof I speak because I've been there and done that, as a matter of fact in the same fascist State - Michigan! :barf:

to be continued

[feedthehogs]

agricola,
I guess you have never used derogatory comments in describing an oppressive society of which the British empire was at the time I was refering to.
I have no concern with GB today. What happens there is your responsibility and concern.
They do seem to be only one of America's allies that supports our actions whether they are wrong or not.
The comment was not a modern day conclusion.

[suijurisfreeman]

In May of 1991 my wife and I bought 43 acres in Hillsdale County, Michigan and decided to build a 40' geodesic home. I took out all the "required" permits and when the Hillsdale County building inspector, Galen Borten came out to inspect the foundation footers made the comment that I didn't get a permit for a 15'X20' portable barn that I had constructed to store my tools in while I built the dome home, but then said, "don't worry about it, it's a barn. OK no problem, yea right! In August of 1992 upon returning from a wargaming convention in Pennsylvania I had received a nasty letter from Mr. Borten stating that I now needed to get that $14 permit for my portable barn after all. I went in to his office and reminded Mr Building Inspector that he had told me not to worry about getting a permit for my barn, well actually I said alot more than that, but I can't type here all that I told him! I didn't hear any about that $14 permit until after I got back from a business trip to Chicago on January 10, 1994. My neighbor told me that two State Police, two Hillsdale County Sheriff's deputies and the building inspector had "raided" my property earlier that day. I went into the Sheriff's Department the next day to find out what the hell was going on, at which time I was informed that they had an arrest warrant for me and that I was now going to be arrested. In the State of Michigan it's a criminal offence to not get a building permit, each day is a new and separate offence with a possible $500 per day fine and possible 90 days in jail! Since I had built the portable barn in May of 1991, something like 2 and 1/2 years had gone by, if these people were serious, I technically was facing $450,000 in fines and a possible 230 year jail sentence! Pretty damn serious for not getting a $14 building permit!
Not wanting to spend any time in jail over this matter, I post 10% of a $250 bond, big mistake! I was advised to get an attorney, but decided to do my own "legal" work and at my pretrial hearing on February 2, 1994 Judge Donald Sanderson informed me that I was not in a Constitutional Court, so I was not to be bringing up the Constitution! I of course asked Judge Sanderson, what the :cuss: I was doing there! There was a "trial" in March of 1994 and after we picked the jury and had opening statements, Judge Sanderson called for a recess. The assn't prosecutor, "No Deal", Neil Brady asked to speak with me, he told me that after hearing my opening statement that it sounded like I had a good case and just might win it, but that if I would just pay the $14 fee they would drop all the charges against me! Yes they had loaded more charges on the original charge of no building permit right before my trial, I guess they thought that would make me comply, but obviously it didn't! I told "No Deal", Neil Brady that I was told by Galen Borten that I didn't need to worry about getting that permit and therefore I had absolutely no intention of getting one now. I also informed Mr. Brady that even if I lost the case today I wouldn't compromise my principles and get the permit! The trial comtinued, under my cross examination Galen Borten, the building inspector perjured himself atleast twice, he claimed to have left a "stop work order" on the barn, but during pre-trial discovery I learned that if in fact he had done so there would be a required copy of said stop work order on file in his office. There was no such copy and he claimed that he didn't know what happened to it, but the truth of the matter was it wasn't on file because he never issued any such order! He attempted to blather on trying to justify why there was no copy on file, but I said that I had no further questions of him. I then brought up the fact that in the Michigan Statutes an exemption is given for barns on rural property that are used as farm buildings, which Mr. Borten couldn't refute. Neil Brady, the assn't prosecutor started attacking me personally telling the jury that I knew enough of the law to "try and get out from under it"! I never even bothered to call any witnesses because after all the burden of guilt was on the prosecution - sure, right! Finally Judge Sanderson instructed the jury that unless the prosecution had shown that the barn was in fact not going to be used as a farm building that they should return a verdict of not guilty, needless to say Mr. Brady was not pleased! I figured, hey it's a done deal, I've won my case - WRONG! The jury was only out for about 20-30 minutes and returned a verdict of guilty! So much for "justice"! The court next attempted to do a pre-sentencing investigation on me, I refused to answer questions about family members, etc - it was none of their business! Finally at sentencing Judge Sanderson fined me $200, gave me 6 months probation and was ordered to get in compliance with the building code (pay that $14 for a building permit). I told Judge Sanderson to his face, while he sat on the bench that I would not pay the $200 and would not get in compliance with the building code, in fact I told him that I would burn the barn down before I'd get that permit! I was then instructed to see the clerk about a probation order, she asked me to sign it , but I said that I would have to read it first, one of the conditions of probation was that I would not leave the State of Michigan without first asking permission of the court. Needless to say, I told the clerk that I would leave the State any time that I felt like it, without asking permission from anyone! I then refused to sign the probation order, but the clerk said, "we need you to sign it",(not you have to sign it!)
Like I've stated before, the probation order is a contract, if you sign said contract, you can and will be held liable for any violation of the terms and conditions of that contract. :banghead:

[2dogs]

I technically was facing $450,000 in fines and a possible 230 year jail sentence! Pretty damn serious for not getting a $14 building permit!


(In robot like voice) Yes it is the law we must follow the law this is a land of laws laws mean more than rights cannot not follow law law is for little people not big people cannot not follow law it does not compute............spghridbkghghhhhhh (smoke rising from robot head).:neener:

[suijurisfreeman]

2dogs,
I actually insisted that the assn't prosecutor, Nel Brady have me arrested separately for each day that I didn't have that permit (as required by law - each day was a new and separate offence!) That would have been over 900 separate arrests! But he said that would be ridiculous, I said, "but that's the law!" I guess "they" can arbitrarily enforce what "laws" they want!

[suijurisfreeman]

As I said, I was asked to sign the probation order which is nothing more than a contract. For any contract to be valid it must be entered into voluntarily, I didn't agree with the terms of their "contract" so I refused to sign it! Over the course of the next 6 months the court kept sending me notices to appear for "probation meetings", I finally got tired of it and actually took my mailbox down so their notices couldn't be delivered! Since that day in 1994 I've never had an "address", I receive any correspondence at General Delivery. The Hillsdale County Prosecutor, Michael Smith was quoted in the Hillsdale Daily News as saying, "We're not going to send the troops out there to get Mr. Johnson." In September of 1994 I was stopped by a Hillsdale City Police officer, Todd Holtz for no plates on my truck, I was also then charged with no operator's license, no insurance, fingerprint refusal and finally the big one, resisting and obstructing a police officer! The charge of probation violation was also added - you know that probation order that I never signed!
I've already posted on my thread "I serve Constructive Notice rather than show a 'permit' to carry! about all these charges and what the end result was on them, but I'll post again about the "probation arraignment". Judge Sanderson stated that I was being arraigned for "probation violation", I told him that I never signed any probation order! Nevertheless he insisted that I was in violation of "my probation order", but I again reminded him that I couldn't be held liable for a "contract" that I never agreed to or signed! Judge Sanderson then attempted to "swear me in", gave up on that and began questioning me about whether or not I was now in compliance with the building code as he had ordered me to be at my sentencing. He stated, "I heard that you tore that barn down", I said, "that's correct", he asked, "Are you saying that you're in compliance with the building code?", I said, "absolutely not!" Now the following is an exact quote from Judge Donald Sanderson, "For the purposes of what we're doing here today, we're going to say that you are in compliance, proation terminated." My mouth just about hit the floor! Say what?! Is this Orwellian double-speak or what?! And this came out of the mouth of the judge that wanted me to raise my right hand and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth! :confused: Like I've posted before, the courts today are not about truth or justice, it's about control, power and money! None of these tactics worked on me, so Judge Sanderson just gave up, just like he did at "my trial" on January 10, 1995!
Now was there a "stand-off" during any of this? Did I threaten to use force to defend my rights and property? No, I used my brain, my knowledge, I stood my ground, even after I was found guilty by a "jury" (certainly not of my peers though!). Why did I stand my ground? Did that make me a "wacko"? No, I stood my ground because I was right and they were wrong! I was defending my rights, my property and my principles! And if more Americans don't start doing so, this whole thing is going down the tubes! We are on the slippery slopes to tyranny! Was this the end of my struggles over unlawful government abuse, oh no, act II will follow!

to be continued

[Tamara]

I guess you have never used derogatory comments in describing an oppressive society of which the British empire was at the time I was refering to.

The "island pond scum" didn't invade; we were the island pond scum. As for the "oppressive society" thing, daily life in the 18th Century British Isles was virtually unrestricted compared to life anywhere in a Western industrialized nation today. The colonists had an even lighter tax burden than the citizens in the home islands, but we decided to gamble for the whole enchilada, and won. (Of course, in the intervening 200 years, we then squandered all our gains, but that's another thread...)

[Cowboy Preacher]

Would the town be so ready to tear down this man's home if it were a regular frame house insted of a couple of trailers? I have seen were I live a new high dollar sub-divsion be developed next to a trailer park that had been there years and the county will run people out of their homes becuase a bunch of yuppies think any home under $100,000 or any trailer is a blight and must be bulldozed.

I say stand up for your land and let no pencil pushing clerk at city hall take whats yours. For what is worth why do we allow these socialist zoning laws to stand? Lets get some people who will let us run our land as we see fit.

[SaintofKillers]

Sir Galahad,

Are you reading my posts? I said I dont necessarily agree with what Stanley is doing, I also dont advocate taking up firearms against the govt for every little law that I dont like, if that was the case all hell would have broke loose long ago. The last few threads have said all that I needed to say, and since I am going to be childish I will take my bat and ball and go home:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: I just want to know what its going to take to make you take a stand against this kind of tyranny???:confused: :confused: I guess we should just be sheeple and do what the nice govt official tells us too. The Gods bless those that help themselves.

[Coronach]

No, what we should probably do is:

1. Get the permits as required by law.

2. If something fails to go properly, do everything possible to avoid an armed standoff over a freakin BUILDING PERMIT. When all you have is a hammer...

3. Work through the courts/government to achieve your desired outcome like a civilized human being.

4. Failing that, use your franchise to vote the deadbeats out and change the law.

Basically, what he is saying is "hey...I can do whatever I want because I have a gun, and I reject *INSERT LAW HERE* because I think its unconstitutional."

Good luck with that.

Oh, and NEWSFLASH: this will only give the antis more propaganda material.

Mike

[TheeBadOne]

Concise and well said.

[Augustwest]

Was Randy Weaver right to stand and fight, or was he just a racist wacko?

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Try:

Randy Weaver was a racist wacko who was right to stand and fight.

Kinda like that, "A well regulated militia" thing.

Something about the current situation doesn't sit right with me. This guy was afraid for his wife's health because he couldn't build a ramp, but he's putting up revetments for the impending gun battle on his property? That'll do her heart a lot of good :rolleyes:

[walking arsenal]

(dons kevlar, grabs a cold lemonade and sits back and watches from a safe distance)


1. avoid conflict
2. if confronted try to talk your way out
3. if 2 doesnt work get out of there
4. if problem pursues, call cops
5. if all else fails, kick ??? to fullest ability

it all goes back to the cardinal rules of defense.

[Blain]

Rick Stanley, leader of an organization called Mutual Defense Pact 2d American Revolution Militia who offers to send more than 600 armed defenders to Barkley's aid once the standoff has begun.

:what:

How does he plan on gathering that much support in what is sure to be a mortal action? Is he just assuming that they will all show up on their own free will?

All I can say about this so far is that Barkley seems to be in the right. No one needs to get big brother’s or anyone else’s permission, besides the seller’s, to do with their property as they see fit. As long as their altercations do not infringe upon the liberty of anyone else; and I hardly see the danger in having a couple extra innate boxed houses erected onto one’s plot of land. The only one who should have had any say at all was the previous owner of the land, and it doesn’t appear as if the land was sold off with any conditions on it. If the man in question bought the land fair and square and did not violate any contracts with the seller, and no, the Federal Mafia’s desires don’t count, than it is his to do with as he pleases. It is no business of the government.

I admire his courage for standing up and fighting though, if this does lead to confrontation, he is sure to face an almost certain defeat.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this as potentially spiraling into something even bigger and nastier than WACO? Say Barkley and his small group of supporters do decide to open fire in self defense, and are consequently mowed down. In retaliation/support hundreds of armed citizens arrive ready to strike back, as Stanley promised. Say they suffer heavy casualties, but are fairly successful in killing a few of their oppressors and keeping them at bay until more military troops are called in to quell the rebel threat. Does the cycle end there, or does it spin out of control with even more people coming to their aid, in addition to other people choosing/deciding to strike out elsewhere at other locations?

Not saying that such is even a likely scenario as I, quite frankly, can't even imagine a couple dozen, never mind 600+, armed citizens rushing in to engage a government force at this point in time. I don't care if they are members of the militia, most citizens don't have the guts to do something that would jeopardize their safety when they are not coerced or ordered to do it.

[Dan from MI]

Bay Township is in Charlevoix County, which stretches from Lake Michigan to the Boyne Area. Lake Michigan is big money, and Lake Charlevoix is as well. The Boynes are heavy into outdoors, and tourism is a big industry here. The area is a mix of big money and rural culture. That's the background of the area.

Before I take a side on the case itself, my main question is this. Was the permits granted and adhered to, then the complainted happened. I have a good hunch that there's more to this here.

What I don't know.

1. Is this simply the end of a pissing contest between the township from an outside political battle going back some time?

2. Is this a good ole boys thing where the super and judge have their campaigns backed by a developer or the like?


Barkely may very well have a case here. I may not care for his PR tactics with his stupid ??? silver coin comment, but he may be in the right. That said, the proper response is going to appeals court and getting a good lawyer(who can speak for him too) that specializes in this, not calling Norm Olson and sounding like a kook.

And TALKING about armed response isn't smart. It automatically alienates a lot of people that would be in his corner.

The key is fighting smart. So far, he's fighting like an idiot.

[rock jock]

becuase a bunch of yuppies think any home under $100,000 or any trailer is a blight and must be bulldozed
So if a bunch of yuppies want to build a nice community without trailers, what business is that of yours?

[Sergeant Bob]

So if a bunch of yuppies want to build a nice community without trailers, what business is that of yours?
So, what are you trying to say here? Are you saying that if someone lives in a trailer, and some "yuppies" or whoever, come along they have the right to bulldoze that persons home? Is that any different than moving in next to a dairy farm and complaining about the smell, or next to a shooting range and crying about the noise? Then trying to shut them down or evict them?

[Blain]

So if a bunch of yuppies want to build a nice community without trailers, what business is that of yours?

None....until they begin to hire hitmen and lackeys to start bulldozing over the property of "undesirables".

[Secret Master]

:what: Fellahs, there is nothing unusual about this situation. Although he only included a few examples in his book The Ballad of Carl Drega, Vin Suprynowics has documented over 2,000 violent clashes between property owners and local government in, I believe,
the last seven years alone! I urge all of you to purchase a copy of this very important, very alarming book. I repeat, this situation is not unusual.... it is simply that the press is (unconsciously) burying these stories under the "long kook" file. Only, they are not alone....

[Blain]

Well, I'll tell you one thing, this has all the potential to be another WACO for sure.

[TheeBadOne]

Well, I'll tell you one thing, this has all the potential to be another WACO for sure.
How? There's nothing to indicate this fella is holding women and children hostage? :confused:

[tyme]

I seem to have missed the first four threads detailing this book. :(

Ballad of Carl Drega (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967025923/)

[Cowboy Preacher]

Rock Jock, if people want to build a fancy suburb go ahead. But dont complain if you build next to a farm or city dump or whatever offending land use you care to insert in this example. THe trailer were there first and so get over. They have as much right to live in their double-wide as you have to your half-million dollar monument to yuppie status symbols.

Sorry if this sound like a rant aginst rich people, it is not meant to be. I grew up in a nice upper middle class suburb and live in a $200,000 home. I just can not stand the egos of some of these people who want to condeem others homes just so they can forget about the true Americans who earn a living with two hands and a strong back and not with a fancy desk job because they went to Harvard on the Hill.

[Blain]

There's nothing to indicate this fella is holding women and children hostage?

Good, neither was David Koresh!

[TheeBadOne]

Good, neither was David Koresh!
Ok, and you know this how? :confused:

[Blain]

How? Just look at the videos of the men, women and children that they made their witht he FBIs own tapes. Not to mention testimony from the surviving members.

I'm glad to see you are so trusting and believing of the government to believe their lies and justification for killing decent Americans.

Well, I suppose you know what they say about suckers...

[pax]

4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

pax

[Sgt]

How anyone can compare this guy to Randy Weaver, or to Waco, is beyond my ability to understand.....oh, but then again, I'm a Right Wing Conservative, not an Anarchist....


He'd be smart to give in and not cause the authorities to use force........Sorry, but I believe that you have to pick your battles and I just wouldn't pick this one!!!

I'm sure as wound up as some of you are about this thread, he'll have plenty of help, once you all get there to back him up.

Good Luck !!!

[2dogs]

Kiss your house goodbye

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: September 16, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


A few weeks ago, I wrote about private-property rights. I wrote about the clash between the rights of individual Americans to their property, and the never-ending quest by politicians for more money to spend on their various vote-buying schemes. That previous column didn't generate enough of an outrage, so I'm back to try again. How about listening up this time?

Maybe it would help if I could be more concise. This time, maybe I can make you understand that the very foundation of liberty is under attack.

Just what is the basic foundation of human liberty? Self ownership. It's just that simple. You own your life. If you don't believe that you own your life, then you are admitting that some other person or entity claims that ownership – either in whole or in part.

You will spend part of this life that you own earning money. You will then exchange that money for property. That property, then, represents a part of your life. To deny you that property is to deny you that portion of your life you expended to acquire that property.

Simple, right? Yeah ... so simple even a Democrat could follow it.

Free societies recognize freedom can't exist unless this right to self ownership is recognized. When you are denied your right to your own life, and that which you produce, you are denied your basic liberty.

To protect your liberties, and your right to your life, laws in free societies have always placed strict limitations on the power of government to deprive you of your property. While the law has long recognized the right of the state to seize property, our Constitution limits that power to the taking of private property for public use, and then only with just compensation.

Now, here's the rub. While you might think that a "public use" would be something like a school, a fire or police station or roads and bridges, politicians are developing a completely different definition. In many states a "public use" is defined as nothing more than maximizing the taxes that can be collected on a particular piece of property.

In other words, if a politician figures out your property would generate more tax revenue for government if it was owned by someone other than you, it would then be perfectly OK to use force to seize that property from you and give it to the party who is going to generate the higher tax revenues. You will then be paid for your property based on a bureaucrat's decision on what it is worth, rather than a price negotiated between a willing seller and purchaser.

I first brought this new excuse for the seizure of private property to your attention a few weeks ago writing about Alabaster, Ala. The politicians running this town of 24,000 have decided a new shopping center with a Wal-Mart would be such a wonderful thing for their community ... and especially for sales tax revenues. So, the Alabaster City Council is in the process of seizing the homes of about 11 private individuals so the property can be handed over to the developer for the shopping center.

Today, I bring this up again to tell you about Duncanville, Texas, and the unbridled arrogance of one particular city official. In Duncanville, the politicians have decided to seize the property of Deborah Hodge. They want her house, the pasture, the swimming pool – all of it. They want to hand over the property to a private developer for a Costco. Why? More tax money. The Costco will pay more in taxes than Deborah Hodge and her husband.

Now … listen to this. Kent Cagle is the city manager of Duncanville, Texas. How does Kent Cagle feel about government seizing private homes and then handing the property over to developers who will, in turn, hand over more tax money? Well, apparently Kent Cagle rather likes the idea. Here is what he had to say about the Hodges. Just feeeeel the arrogance: "They don't have the option to say no to us. We have made it clear we want that property. The only thing that will be settled in court is how much we have to pay for it."

That just about says it all, doesn't it? The state of private-property rights in America in 2003. If the government wants another, richer private entity to own your property, you have no option but to say "OK!"

Freedom cannot survive in a society that does not protect property rights. So now you know where the greatest threat to our freedoms resides. Just visit your local city hall.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34615

[suijurisfreeman]

The above article on property rights posted by 2dogs is exactly what's going on today in this country! Wake-up Americans before it's too late!

After Judge Sanderson "terminated" my probation in September of 1994, I built two more buildings without bothering to get permission from "the powers that be". Since they couldn't keep me from doing so by arresting me, they next resorted to "economic terrorism"! The following article was on the front page of the Jackson Citizen Patriot newspaper on Sunday, April 13, 1997. A large color picture of me standing in front of one of my styrofoam tax protest signs - Winston Johnson stands near two of his protest signs on Squawfield Road. (The sign I'm standing in front of reads, "A mans's home is his castle, so they say, but not if the Woodbridge Township Stupidvisor has his way!) Protester aims jabs at officials by Steven Hepker (Staff Writer) Hillsdale - When Hillsdale County Road Commission officials approached Winston Johnson to take down his roadside tax protest signs, they encountered an odd sight. "I was trudging up the road wearing a crown of thorns and carrying a 12-foot cross on my back," Johnson said, "I even fell down to my knees, making a mockery out of the whole thing." Johnson, widely known for outlandish tax protests, wallows in symbolism. "He is pretty clever," Stan Clingerman said. "I guess he was being crucified by government." On Saturdays, Johnson portests at the Hillsdale County Fairgrounds by wearing a foam coffin, with a stuffed monkey on his back. He says it signifies the impact of an overbearing government on free men. When he got wind of police coming to arrest him at his 42 acres, he bought a dozen doughnuts and threatened to lead police elsewhere with a trail of pastries. "I have a sense of humor," he said recently at his property, south of Hillsdale. When the Woodbridge Township assessor valued a tiny, half-done structure on his property at nearly $60,000, Johnson ripped up and tossed the assessment notice at the board of review. And then he stewed for hours until he concocted the sign campaign. He built all kinds and sizes of protest signs, and then plastered Squawfield Road with them along his north border. "I'm the property-tax terrorist, and I'll huff and I'll puff 'til I tax your house to the ground," on sign reads. One of his props is a fairly realistic dummy shooting the moon at the assessor, telling him to "Assess this one!" He refers to the supervisor as the "Stupidvisor."
"I could care less what is on the signs, Clingerman said, "We just want to protect the motoring public within the 66-foot right of way." He said road crews remove signs, including political signs, if they are too close to the road. Johnson, 46, researched the law and determined the law regarding roadside nuisance signs was found unconstitutional in 1965 and repealed by the Legislature in 1980. "Mr. Johnson is very knowledgeable and has a lot more time than I do to study the law," Clingerman said. Nevertheless, he asked Johnson to voluntarily remove the signs by April 1. Johnson did not, and was served a notice last week for encroaching on the right of way. He has until May 3 to comply, or risk prosecution for a misdemeanor. Johnson said he likes Clingerman, but will not back down. "In fact, I think I am going to build a tiny leprechaun village down along the road and buy some of those little ceramic gnomes and have them peeking out of the houses," he said. This is no idle threat, Johnson is skilled at hindiwork and tomfoolery. Last week, he started posting dozens of signs on 3-by-5 cards along the road, perhaps a prelude to the leprechaun village.
In Addition to making and marketing cat furniture and toys, he invents and builds off-the-wall games, like the Old West town on his living room table.
He built his house with $1,400 and scrap material. It is a work in progress, as is the 576-square-foot house that was assessed for $30,000. Both sit on concrete piers, so that they cannot be termed permanent structures. They have no running water or electricity. Johnson kicked Assessor Kenneth Vincent off his land several years ago, so Vincent assessed the new building and a nearby shed from the road. The newest building was for one of Johnson's two sons, but the son fled the property recently, fearing an all-out police siege. "He is chicken-hearted. They (his sons) are both gutless wonders," said Johnson, who has watched the movie "Braveheart" more than 20 times. He finds similarities in the oppression the Scottish clans faced and the demands by government on American citizens who hold to constitutional and God-given rights.
His wife, Eula, seems to tolerate his activities with humor and resignation. His sons, however, think he has gone overboard. "My oldest son wants to have me committed," Johnson said. "He asked me: 'Do you wake up every day, look in the mirror, and say 'I am going to be defiant'?" A group of followers, who called themselves We the People, fizzled out. They didn't have the guts to demand freedom from government inposed regulations, he said.
Johnson has spent time in courts and jail during his crusade to assert his freedom. He refuses to buy license plates, a driver's license, auto registration, building permits or insurance. "I have a right to travel. When you ask the government for permission, it no longer is a right," he said. "People have certain inalienable rights the government cannot take away or diminish." Likewise, filing with the Internal Revenue Service is essentially a contract to work for the governement, he said. He has no bank accounts, no electricity, does not pay income tax, or Social Security tax, nor does he deal in paper money, credit or checks. He refuses to maintain an address or post office box. When he sells cat furniture or works construction, he is paid in federal reserve notes and converts them to Susan B. Anthony dollars.
He calls his house a structure in which he and his wife seek shelter. They are sovereign citizens of the Republic of Michigan, and claim no residency. He took down his mailbox and gets general delivery at the Frontier post office, where his mail is tossed into a crate. "It's the same way people got their mail 40 or 50 years ago," Eula Johnson said.
Johnson asserts it is nobody's business what he does, how much money he makes, or how he chooses to live, as long as he is not hurting anyone. Each time you sign your name to an official document, he said, you lose more freedom and establish a paper trail the government can use against you. Flounting authority and mocking local officials, however, has created a larger paper trail than if he were a common working stiff. It is a price worth paying, he said. "I'm a little monkey wrency in the cog of government," he said. "I am as free as a man can be." Contrary to the impression and the "Don't Tread On Me" flag in his yard, Johnson is not a militia member. He considers himself a free man, in the tradition of Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams and Thomas Jefferson. "I went to one militia meeting, but there were so damn many kooks," he said. "I am too independent for that bunch. I don't have papamilitary exercises out here. I'm not violent."
Johnson has confounded local officials with his knowledge of the U.S. and state constitutions, laws and court dicisions. And by his tenacity. "He knows the law enough to try to get out from under it," Prosecutor Neil Brady said in a 1994 trial in which Johnson was found guilty of not buying a building permit for a shed. Later he spent nearly a month in the Hillsdale County Jail for driving without a license plate, driver's license or insurance. He refused to sign his bond, even after prosecutors said they would drop the $250 bond. "Signing a bond gives them permission to prosecute you," he said. Eventually, after Johnson was released and failed to appear in court, the matter was dropped. "We are not going to forcibily detain him on this," District Judge Donald Sanderson wrote.
In the fall of 1995, Johnson was jailed again after a contingent of state, city and county police surrounded him at the Taco Bell in Jonesville. "I just kept eating my taco and drinking my drink," Johnson said. "That time I spent 23 days in jail, and got out October 13, 1995. They have left me alone since them." Given his penchant for mocking government, laws and government leaders, Johnson said he realizes the truce likely won't last through spring.

[suijurisfreeman]

Another article on this assessment feud from the Hillsdale Daily News, April 1, 1997,Rules vs. rights issue in assessment conflict by W. Rae Loeffler, .........."Clingerman said Johnson told them he would study the laws. The commission gave the Woodbridge Township man 10 days to comply. If he doesn't move the signs by the end of that 10 days, he will be notified in writing. Clingerman stressed the sign dilemma has nothing to do with the assessment issue. "I would like to characterize this as not a running feud with the Road Commission," he said. "I don't care what's on the signs. But when the large signs went up along the road, we felt the need to have them moved. He's (Johnson) been very polite and amiable. We have a good dialogue. While we don't necessarily agree, it's not adversarial or anything like that."
Still, the assessment feud rages on. The signs remain in place, many of them displaying personal attacks on Vincent and local government. "Those signs aren't going to help him on bit because the Board of Review is already over," Vincent said. The board convened the first week of March. "However, I've been thinking about lowering it some, but i don't know what I could do. I might go by his word. He doesn't want to take my word, but I'll try to take at least part of his. He didn't fill out the paperwork, so the Board of Review couldn't do anything."
Vincent, who was recently released from the hosipital after being treated for a bleeding ulcer, squelched the rumor he'd had a heart attack as a result of the situation with Johnson. "I didn't have a heart attack, and it (the ulcer) wasn't because of him," Vincent said. "I have nothing against him. He only needed to talk to us, let us have a peek at the building and we'd be on our way."
If worse comes to worse and the assessment is not changed, Johnson said he plans to not pay his taxes. And if that happens, chances are his land could go up for sale and he might be forced to give up his property-a prospect he refuses to acknowledge. "If they think they're going to get me off my property by targeting me with economic terrorism, they're wrong," Johnson said. "I'll go to extremes to get things done. I won't grovel in front of these people. If they come to arrest me, to remove me, I'll defend my property, and my wife with whatever force I deem necessary. I'm not a threat to anyone, but I have a right to defend myself. I'm a law-abiding person, and I'm not out here hurting anyone. But I won't be oppressed."

So like I posted before, I know whereof I speak, been there, done that! The outrageous tax assessment was lowered considerably by Mr. Vincent without me filling out any of the "required" paperwork! When I paid the new assessment, I paid the $947 in 50 cent pieces, it took two clerks 20 minutes to count all 1,894 coins! After they had completed the job, I asked them, "How do you like counting your blood money 50 cents at a time?"
Some on here have been critical of Lyle Barkley, but which of the facts surrounding this situation do you have first hand knowledge of? Not what some newspaper printed, not what someone said someone else said, first hand knowledge! It's easy to be critical of Lyle Barkley, but what if it were your property, your rights that were being violated, if in deed that's what is going on here? My situtation back in 1997 almost went down to the wire, was I just some crazy wacko? The article posted by 2dogs above is absolutely right, unless private property ownership is secured, liberty cannot exist! Americans need to wake-up! Would I have actually used deadly force to protect myself and property? Damn betcha I would have! Would I have been "taken out"? No doubt, but that's not the point! I drew my line in the sand and I wasn't going to back down! The confrontation was avoided because the assessment was changed, they backed down!
While it may very well be true that one should carefully pick his battles, if you wait too long there may be nothing to battle over! "They" will have taken it all and that will include any means that you may of had to defend yourself! So all I can say to any out there who are playing "armchair generals", you walk a mile in Lyle Barlkey shoes before you are so critical of his actions! I personally know of another "wacko", Zeno Budd of Ovid, Michigan who was railroaded into prison by these fine upstanding public officials! Zeno Budd took a stand, devoted years of his life trying to educate others about property rights and ended up in prison for all his efforts! When all the Zeno Budds, Lyle Barlkeys, Winston Johnsons, etc are long gone, who'll stand up and draw the line in the sand? Who will try to stem the tide of tyranny that is sweeping over this land? Where is the "Spirit of 1776" in America today?

[ballistic gelatin]

I work at the county courthouse and made a point to get to know the judges (especially their assistants) and the courthouse deputies. The deputies gave me a key to their weight room and we talk about guns and motorcycles. Sometimes it's about who you know, and I want to know the right people.

I have talked with ladies in the traffic department who have been called "blood sucking vampires" and such. Man, we're just employees trying to make it in life like everybody else, don't take it out on us. You wanna talk? Talk to the supervisor. Then talk to his/her supervisor.

And if it's not already apparent, permits, property taxes and crap like that are just ways of generating tax dollars. The local government (headed by elected officials) is a big fat slow moving terd that eats everything it can find and then looks for more. Planning and Zoning people are hired and cannot be voted out.

Maybe the mobile home guy isn't as smart as some or well spoken as others and figures he'll be thrown in jail if he "takes it to court". Heck, then they send a county crew out there and it takes 2 weeks, 7 laborers, 2 big trucks, 2 engineers, 2 inspectors, 2 electricians, 2 plumbers, 2 deputies, 1 fire chief, 1 foreman, 1 coordinator, 1 attorney, 1 commissioner, and 1 county vehicle for everyone except the 7 laborers (they have to share). And that's not including the road crew that has to oversee the transprortation of this unapproved structure to the Sheriffs impound yard.

We all have a different line in the sand.
That's why we'll never successfully thwart any confiscation legislation.

[Secret Master]

Ballistic:

Do you have any idea how depressing that is? It makes me want to sell my property and go live in a cave with my m-15 cluched in my white knuckled fists!

[Coronach]

Planning and Zoning people are hired and cannot be voted out.Sure. But the policies under which they work and the laws under which they operate can be changed.

I'll be the last person to defend administrative law and the bureaucracy that shambles around under its aegis. I'm also a pretty big fan of private property rights. However, the places to fight and win this battle are in the courts and the polling place. The reason for this is because not only is it the civilized way, its also the only possible way to win. Don't think so? Wait and see.

Also...enforcing the court order sure is gona be dicey. They would seem to have the option of showing up with a ready-to-go tactical team and being 'provocative,' or showing up with their pants around their ankles and probably being bushwhacked. It is comforting to know that no matter what they do, it will probably be the deputies' fault. :uhoh: :rolleyes:

Mike

[ballistic gelatin]

not only is it the civilized way, its also the only possible way to winI do agree. Anytime you get shot, you lose. I'm just not clear on how to change those policies/laws/ordinances.

[Ian]

I don't want to sound like I'm drawing a comparison between these events, but I bet the militiamen at Lexington and Concord would disagree with you, Coronach.

[Coronach]

Now you're being silly.

I say that availing yourself of you legal recourses like court and the ballot box are the best course of action, and you respond with a scenario where armed insurrection was chosen precisely because there was no recourse to the courts or the ballot box.

Lets see...no taxation without representation...has someone revoked this guy's franchise? Or is he just exercising his (non-existant) right to ignore laws that he finds inconvenient?

Mike

PS before you claim that there is a moral 'right' to ignore/thwart poor laws (a point with which I would be in more agreement with you than you might think), I'll clarify that I'm speaking of recognized legal rights, under our system of government as currently constituted.

[answerguy]

Neil Brady asked to speak with me, he told me that after hearing my opening statement that it sounded like I had a good case and just might win it, but that if I would just pay the $14 fee they would drop all the charges against me!

Sometimes people don't know when to admit victory.

[Ian]

Well, you said that working through the court was the only way to win. Yet historically, there are times when the courts failed to resolve issues and violence did resolve the issue. Granted, those instances are rare, but they do happen now and then. The American revolution was a great example. Where petitioning the King and parliament failed repeatedly, revolution succeeded.

I'm not saying that this guy's position is right or wrong, just pointing out what appeared to me to be a faulty premise of yours.

[Coronach]

There is a difference between petitioning the King for redress of grievances and exercising your franchise to vote the bastards out. ;)

Mike

PS Drat, hit enter too soon! Yeah, it is possible to fight the powers-that-be and win...in revolution. But making a lone stand over a trailer ain't gonna do it. All it will do is hurt "our" cause...be it gun rights, or property rights.

[rock jock]

Rock Jock, if people want to build a fancy suburb go ahead. But dont complain if you build next to a farm or city dump or whatever offending land use you care to insert in this example. THe trailer were there first and so get over. They have as much right to live in their double-wide as you have to your half-million dollar monument to yuppie status symbols.
I am in agreement with you. Actually, the best way to take land you want is to make an offer to good to pass up. That way everyone wins.

And, for the record, my house is not even worth half of a half-million.

[Sergeant Bob]

Working through the court system (the very court system which supports the bulldozing) is a great idea if you have the resources to do so. Can he just go to the judge and say "I want to appeal"? Or, does he have to file an appeal, with all the proper legal mumbo jumbo included? Since I doubt he's up to speed on court procedure, he'd probably need to hire a lawyer. Can he afford one (not cheap, even if he could find a GOOD lawyer to take it), plus filing fees? Would one take the case on contigency? Maybe he should try Geoffry Fieger's office (he's real good).

Ballot box? A long term solution for an immediate problem. I imagine one would probably be decent for storing ammo or supplies.

[Blain]

I just heard from both Barkley and Stanley on the Alex Jones show today. www.infowars.com

I hope they put the transcript of the interview up for I can post it here.

Alex basically was trying to warn Stanley the entire time that the ATF and FBI love to join militias as provocator agents and cause problems to demonize the rest of the group. Stanley didn't seem to care, or didn't think such would effect him. Stanley said that since he gives all the "instructions" anything that is done not in line with those are not his actions. He also stated how he was not afraid to take a stand for fellow militia members, and that he is on a list and is tracked anyway so he doesn't care what he says.

He also stated that he doesn't care what the mainstream news says about his militia as they will demonize the militia no matter what. He said this is the only way that the Government will learn not to deficate on it's citizens anymore.

[jimpeel]

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2001-08/575272.jpg

[Blain]

MEDIA RELEASE

Stanley Scoop 09.17.03 **Special Edition **
=========================================================
THE STANLEY SCOOP **
** Visit the website: http://www.stanley2002.org **
** Scoop Archive: http://www.stanley2002.org/scoop **
** Like the Scoop? Forward it to everyone you know! **
=========================================================
SPECIAL EDITION:

Subject: MILITIA ALERT FOR MICHIGAN - CONDITION CRITICAL
Sitrep-Barkley Residence (Michigan)


Rick Stanley, Constitutional Activist, former U.S. Senate candidate, Enemy of
the State, and self avowed extremist on the order of our forefathers of America,
gave the following media update on the Boyne, Michigan Militia Alert:



From: "Milo" <shining@direcway.com>

Subject: Sitrep-Barkley Residence (Michigan)

CONDITION CRITICAL
Judge Richard May, Presiding Judge of the 90th District Court, denied the
Demand For Ex Parte Order submitted to him on Monday afternoon. The
Barkleys were faxed a copy of his Opinion & Order late this afternoon.
Judge May could have rescinded his order pending an appeal to the Circuit
Court, or issued a Stay Of Execution. He did neither. In fact his actions
have escalated the situation. This can only indicate his resolve to resort
to the use of force, and avoid allowing additional time to reach a peaceful
solution. The Appeal to the Circuit Court has been drawn up and is ready to
be submitted on the morning (9-17-03). Judge May has ordered that the
Barkleys submit a bond of $7,800.00 (fine) prior to his approval to have the
matter moved to the Circuit Court. The Barkleys do not have this kind of
money. Both Mr. Barkley and his wife, who is a co-defendant, are indigent
and disabled. The appeals will be filed with the Courts, the attorneys for
Bay Twp. and Charlevoix County Building & Zoning, as well as a copy given to
Sheriff Lassiter, first thing in the morning. Although these parties have
to accept the Appeal documents, they will probably not act on them because
of the inability of the Barkleys to pay the bond (fine). As I write, a
dedicated patriot is drawing up a motion to declare the Barkley's indigent,
and also a request to waive the bond and get an emergency hearing. We hope
to get these documents included with the Notice of Appeal in the A.M. By
his actions, Judge May has shown nothing but contempt for the lives and
well-being of the Barkley family and their children, as well as contempt for
the Constitution itself. He is ultimately responsible for what takes place
very shortly. It is all boiling down to "if you don't have lots of money"
you cannot appeal. The Chickenhawks have raised the ante, If nothing
positive occurs in the morning, their hand needs to be called.

STANLEY NOTE: I spoke with Lyle Barkley tonight. While unhappy with Judge
May's decision, he is still vowing to defend his property. I told him the Pact
would defend his position, regardless of what he decided. There are other
legal maneuvers to be tried in the Court but the hour is drawing to a close.
The Pact is at 690 members now after gaining some today, and losing one to
resignation, and one was removed as a provacatuer and disruptive influence.
There are more coming out of the woodwork as this gets closer. They have no
intention of coming on the trip to defend, so they are trying to disrupt. Still
have a few quiet sleepers but time will tell, as it always does. The only
damage is to that little old lightning rod, Rick Stanley, who is used to it.
Any member dealing with a Chuck Geshlider of Texas, be advised he is the ex-Pact
member relieved of his committment to the Pact, and the Pact has no recognition
of him, from this evening on. One less provacatuer to deal with. We welcome
all provacatuers to the Pact so that they may be exposed for the scum and
traitors that they are to America, the real America. We will delight in their
exposure. I will take personal pleasure in the exposures.

I understand from talking with Lyle tonight that two more militia's from
Michigan have committed to the defense of the Barkley property. One with weapons
and one without. I guess they are going to throw dirtclods at the sheriffs.
Just kidding folks. They will decide in their own time what is the proper
response to an attack upon the Barkleys. I believe per Lyle that these are a
southern Michigan group and an eastern Michigan group. No numbers have been
mentioned as to what they can bring to the Barkley table. I understand another
Militia group from Michigan is offering their services, the Michigan Wolverines
of Commander Clint Dare. No knowledge of acceptence by the Barkleys of their
offer made through a local newspaper as of today.

The Pact remains committed to the Barkley defense and remains on PRELIMINARY
ALERT for the Barkley Militia Alert.

Rick Stanley

Information and application to join the Pact is at Rick Stanley's Constitutional
Activism website at www.stanley2002.org. Rick's email address is
rick@stanley2002.org, and can be reached by phone at 303-329-0481 or by fax at
303-329-0498.

Long live the fighters.

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE! LIVE FREE OR DIE!! LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME!!

[Secret Master]

:what: Ok, now somebody reasonable & knowlegable read between the lines here so I can figure out what is actually going on with this situation. I really don't want this thing hung around the necks of America's gun owners, but as a property owner I do find myself ?a bit sympathetic with these poor fools. Is Jim Marsh available? Jim?

[hammer4nc]

Whats the legal rationale to require a $7800 "bond", in order to file an appeal for this type of case?

I've heard this tactic used by local speed traps to release out-of-town speeders (bond amount equals fine).

This amount sounds abusive and excessive, for this type of case. Respect for legal authority takes another hit.

[suijurisfreeman]

I don't have my Michigan Constitution handy right now, I looked on the internet but couldn't find the 1963 Michigan Constitution, Bill of Rights. I do know that Indiana's Bill of Rights, Article I, Section 12 states, "All courts shall be open, and every person , for injury done to him in his person, property, or reputation, shall have remedy by due course of law. Justice shall be administered FREELY, and without purchase , completely, and without denial; speedily, and without delay."

I wonder if Michigan's Bill of Rights states anything like that?

[dadman]

I'm tired of bull???? artists like Stanley. How about exposing him and his kind?
What are his motives? Is he a mental case, emotionaly carried away, or a paid agitator?
Call and e-mail him. Tie up his comm.

[tyme]

If he were a paid agitator, he'd probably know it's "bona fide" and not "bonafied." I'd go with "idiot," one who may be well-intentioned but is an idiot nevertheless.

[dog3]

Well,

It certainly is an interesting thread.

Here's a gross oversimplification.

*If* one postures that they'll give up their guns "after they pry them
from your cold,dead fingers" Many folks on this board will rallye
to their call and make a lotta noise. (Many folks sincerely. Please
continue to show tolerance while I make a point).

Facts are, that since the federal firearms act way back then,
the "gubbmint" has been taking guns, and no one is playing
the "cold,dead fingers" card. As I have stated elsewhere, that
card will not be played out. "They" won't have to come for your
guns. The figurative "you" will give them up after fuming about
it a bit. Facts is facts.

*If* someone hints at an actual "cold,dead fingers" scenario for real,
many folks gang up and start raving that this someone is
a lunatic and is intrinsicly evil.

Back in the days of netiquette; the rules of debate included that the first
party to play the Hitler/Stalin/Mao card lost.

However, this debate rule got buried a long time ago, so we have to
read through it anyway.

That said, There was ONE supreme court ruling that applies directly
to the 2nd. US vs Miller. The supremes found in favor of the 2nd.
Read the ruling. All gun laws are unconstitutional, period. However, we
continue to accept them.

We The People have a right to keep and bear arms. The State exercises
authority over that right with CCW. The State sets up a permission
program by stating authority over the right, and We The People pony
up and defer to the State's authority, in essence negating any claim to
the Right.

This hasn't been tested in court, and about the only outfit that
has the wherewithall to push the issue is the NRA, and they won't
touch it with a fork.

A lot of bitterness is being tossed Stanley's way. Deserved? Yeah, probably.
But last time I checked, being wierd to the point of being under extraterestrial
control was protected by the 1st Amendment.

But this particular issue isn't really about Stanley, this is about some feller
with some house trailers that belong to him, on his own land, that the
local authorities don't like.

Face it, unless you have a whole lot of financial resources, or are really
corrupt and have no honor at all, you can't fight City Hall. This is a truism
as old as civilization.

So, instead you get a regular feller who has had it. Is playing the
"cold,dead fingers" card.

Personally, I think it is posturing. Probably spent too many evenings
listening to Alex Jones on the short wave and not enough evenings
doing his taxes.

So, where is the Governor? Where is this higher legal authority?
Why isn't the State stepping in and mediating this problem? This
fellow thinks he has no recourse. In practical reality (the same
practical reality that gets us to go out and get CCW permits) he
really has no recourse but to let the State have it's way and give up.

That is wrong in my book. What would I do? I wouldn't have gotten
crossed up with the state in the first place. I'd have complied with
the order and muttered about it a lot down at the diner.

Just because this guy won't take this course, he's gonna get
in really big trouble. Is already in really big trouble.

How does this happen? Fact is, there are real problems with
way Jackson rebutted the supreme court all those long years ago.
There are real legal problems that led to the WV Mine Wars of
the 20s and 30s. There are real problems with all kinds of stuff.
Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City. Real, tangible problems.

As long as this type of thing goes unaddressed. You'll have Stanley's.
You'll have this kind of stand off.

But the really interesting thing, is what you will be labled as by
some of the members of this board if you find yourself on the wrong
side of a issue with the "Authorities", you'll be all alone. At least
Barkley has someone backing him up.

[Blain]

Well, today is the day of reckoning....it will be interesting to see what happens. When today does the time limit expire? 8pm est?

[ballistic gelatin]

Where's the local news link for this story? Maybe a phone number for up to date information?Facts are, that since the federal firearms act way back then, the "gubbmint" has been taking guns, and no one is playing he "cold,dead fingers" card. As I have stated elsewhere, that card will not be played out. "They" won't have to come for your guns. The figurative "you" will give them up after fuming about it a bitI regretfully agree.

[Blain]

I regretfully agree.


Well.....I can't speak for anyone else, however, I KNOW what my response will be. I suppose that's all that matters, just because your surronded by tyranny doesn't mean you have to submit to it.


What was that quote from Russia that went something like,

"As we sat there rotting in the camps, we sometimes wondered and pondered about whether things would have turned out differently had the government officals not known if they would be going home that night each time they went in to make an arrest. If we had resisted instead of simply submiting...."


Does that seem familiar to anyone? I would love to find the exact quote.

[pax]

Blain --

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? [...] The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" -- A. Solzhenitsyn

pax

[Blain]

Many thanks, my friend, I am saving that!

[Blain]

Looks as if crises has been averted......for now.

Sept 18th

Showdown Averted at Sunrise

http://www.petoskeynews.com/content/articles/2003/09/18/front/photo_local-1.jpg


Lyle Barkley (left), his daughter Kim (holding her child), and her fiance Charles McClure, at today's meeting with Charlevoix County Sheriff George T. Lasater and Norman Olson of Alanson, senior advisor to the Michigan Militia. The meeting took place at 7 a.m. on the edge of the Barkleys' Camp Daggett Road property, which is the subject of Bay Township zoning dispute.

HORTON BAY - An armed confrontation in Bay Township over property rights was averted today when Charlevoix County Sheriff George T. Lasater held a sunrise meeting with Lyle Barkley and his daughter, Kim, on the edge of their property and promised not to take any action today to enforce a court order against them.

Lasater agreed to set up a meeting next week with the Barkleys, county prosecutor Mary Beth Kur, township and county officials, and Norman Olson, a senior adviser to the Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines and a pastor, to attempt to resolve the issues peacefully.

Barkley said he was satisfied with Lasater's offer of a meeting and promise not to take action against him. But he vowed that if no permanent resolution of the issues could be found and the county attempted to remove three disputed housing units, he would defend his property, his wife, Shirley, two children and six grandchildren living on the property, with arms.

Olson, who lives in Alanson, attended the hour-long meeting on Camp Daggett Road to support the Barkleys and act as an intermediary. The only other people at the roadside meeting were a sheriff's deputy, members of the media and Kim Barkley's fiancé, Charles McClure, 32.

Barkley and Olson said they were satisfied with today's meeting. "It bought us valuable time," Olson said.

Olson said he could not speak for the Michigan Militia or other groups which have vowed to send hundreds of armed members from around the country to the Barkley property should a confrontation occur.

"My advice to the militia is to hold off and look for the miracle that I know is going to happen," Olson said.

Clint Dare, the commander of the Michigan Militia who initiated the meeting with Lasater, failed to appear as scheduled as a result of car problems on his trip from southern Michigan to the Barkley property.

The dispute drew national attention when Barkley declared last week that he would not move three manufactured housing units from his property, as demanded by township zoning officials backed by a district court order.

On Wednesday, District Judge Richard May waived the appeal bond, which amounted to $7,800 today and was set to increase by $100 a day, because all three of the Barkleys had filed an affidavit of indigency.

At the same time, circuit judge Richard Pajtas waived the $100 filing fee for the Barkleys to appeal May's order to remove two 12-by-60 foot trailers and a 29-by-34 foot former portable school house from his property by the end of today.

Janet Potter, the district court administrator, said further legal action against Barkley pursuant to May's Aug. 28 enforcement order was in the hands of township officials.

She said the township would have to hire movers to remove the disputed housing, and any arrest would have to come from a petition from the township officials to Judge May to issue a warrant for Barkley's arrest.

At the roadside meeting today, Olson asked Lasater if Judge Pajtas "was eager to get this thing settled, just as we are?"

"I think he will do what he can within his realm of responsibilities, but he will do his job, just as I will do my job," Lasater said.

Olson said, "I've said for the last several days that you're the key individual. You have the ultimate decision here, not the judge, not the court, as the highest law keeper in the land.

"If you have an unconstitutional order before you, you have the right to either set it aside and say 'There's something wrong with justice here.' You need to look at it again."

"My question to you is if this comes to a worst case conclusion, can you look back and say it was worth it all and you just did your duty? Can you rest for the rest of your life with that on your record?" Olson asked.

Lasater responded: "I can simply say that's not going to happen as far as we're concerned. That scenario will not happen. We have reasonable people here, including Lyle, and I think that if we sit down we can hopefully come to some conclusion."

Turning to Barkley, he said: "You agree you're not going to be arrested. You have my word on that. I suggest we set up another meeting, somewhere that's mutual in agreement."

Olson told Barkley: "If he's a man of his word, I will say I trust him as far as what he says before this listening audience here."

Barkley responded: "I'm willing to work this thing out, and have been willing to work it out peacefully all along."

Lasater said, "We're not going to instigate anything."

Olson said: "It's what you say and what you do and what the law enforcement people do and what the government officials do - that will determine the response of people who are supporting Mr. Barkley.

"And so we are reactive, responsive, defensive. We are not going to initiate anything that's going to cause these people to be in harm's way, any more than they are already."

Barkley said he had changed his views on the role of prosecutor Kur in resolving the dispute.

"When I spoke to her the other night I got some sad news back and I was kind of irritated and I told her at that time I didn't think that she had the power to work with me, and she'd had three months to get into this thing, because the building department is involved, and Charlevoix County in this.

"But now my attorneys tell me she does have a lot more power than I expected, so maybe we can get together with her and can get some of this stuff resolved," he said.

Barkley said he was working to bring the three housing units up to code, and had nearly completed one major element, replacing aluminum electrical wiring with copper.

Fred Gray can be contacted at 439-9374, or fgray@petoskeynews.com.

[Blain]

The Truth about Rick:


Gentlemen,

This has truly been a rollercoaster ride. One minute everything is okay, the next minute we’re in trouble and heading for war.

We are no longer on that ride. New information has come to light that has changed the entire course of this situation. One thing that everyone should know, and if you don’t, I’m telling you now: always, I repeat, always be honest with your legal people.

Lyle Barkley has been duped and has been a victim of a predator. Through poor advise from Rick Stanley, he has repeatedly ignored the courts, ignored their mailings, ignored their orders to comply. Lyle is not a sovereign and was given advise by this Stanley as if he were. Because we did not know that he had not taken the necessary steps from the beginning, we filed paperwork that went in a wrong direction.

We found out about this just a couple of hours ago, through deeper probing. We are continuing to help Lyle and his family; however, we are not certain if he will be able to keep his mobile homes. Because of his contempt of court, he not only accrued the $800 mentioned in earlier posts, but $100 per day since July 10, 2003, totaling $7,600.

To file an appeal, Lyle needs the $7,600 to accompany the appeal. Obviously, he does not have it. Now, the legal team must explore other avenues. Tensions were high among the teams working hard, at trying to stop it peacefully and at planning to defend.

Gentlemen, I believe this should be a stand-down situation across the board. Again, we will continue to help him salvage what we can. Lyle’s only contact prior to this, with any patriots, was that of Rick Stanley through his website.

Lyle is a caring, gullible individual, who even now, wants to believe Rick was his friend, though he may lose quite a bit because of it.

I would like to make it formal, and firm, Rick Stanley is NOT WELCOME by the REAL patriots in Michigan. We love our patriot brothers and sisters across the nation. IMHO, Rick is NOT one of them.


This came direct from the source.This man has worked through several sleepless nights to bring this situation under control and prevent blood shed.

[Sergeant Bob]

Looks to me like Charlevoix County Sheriff George T. Lasater is doing a pretty good job up there. I wonder if he watched "The Andy Griffith Show" in his youth?

[dog3]

SGT Bob;

Amen.

How I love a good lawman.
A gift to the world they are.

[MicroBalrog]

So basically good guys win for now...

My respect for Stanley is on a slow increase..

[Al Norris]

MicroBalrog wrote:
So basically good guys win for now...

My respect for Stanley is on a slow increase..
Um no. Not exactly. At this point in time, just about everyone is "the good guy." Except for Stanley.

He has apparently instigated this whole mess. Beginning with advising Lyle to ignore the courts. When things go south, as was to be expected, Stanley called for arms. Stanley even went so far as to state that "his" group would destroy the infrastructure of the township. He has stated to the Michigan Militia that he would not be under their leadership. He has called for open rebellion of the "authorities" by force of arms while others were working within the confines of the law to prevent such a needless tragedy.

This is not a man of honor. It is a man seeking headlines by whatever means he can. Go to the following blog and seriously read what's there.

http://lylebarkley.blogspot.com/

As with most blogs, to start at the beginning, you must scroll to the bottom and work upwards. Pay particular attention to the "alerts" Stanley posted there.

Also note that there is virtually nothing about the two groups that are on site and are furiously working with (and to some extent, in spite of) Lyle Barkley to stem any violence, by either side. One is an armed militia and another is a group of lawyers who work on militia matters.

What I have just written can be confirmed by doing a search for militia boards and reading what is really going down.

[C.R.Sam]

Sheriff George lookin mighty level headed so far.

Sam

[MicroBalrog]

If it's stupid, but it works...

[Al Norris]

If it's stupid, but it works...
Whatever.

You want to admire someone like Stanley, I won't stop you. I'll save my admiration for those that deserve it.

[MicroBalrog]

You found admiration for RS in something I said?:confused:

I'd better clarify.:)

I thought RS was a complete loser and was going to create bloodshed on a horrible level, deteriorating the situation.

Currently, this didn't happen, moreover, the situation improved slightly. This makes me doubt, note - doubt , not change my position on RS.

[Al Norris]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

The only reason that RS has stood down, is that he can no longer capitalize on the situation. Hard to make hay, when it was others that swathed and baled.

[Sodbuster]

How I love a good lawman.
A gift to the world they are.
:) Describes my father perfectly, a retired sheriff and police chief.

[Justin Moore]

When I first heard of Rick's original gun case, I had a lot of admiration for him, for having the courage to do something like that. And, with his lawyer it seemed like he was on the right track.

Well, he must have snapped somewhere along the way, because this Michigan buisiness is just completely nuts. I think the guy has gone off the deep end.

Hey Sodbuster, you are fairly close to me. Well, close enough anyway. Shoot me a PM!

[mgregg85]

I've never understood why people can't be allowed to do what they want on their own property within reason. This doesn't sound unreasonable to me. The guy just wants to have some mobile homes, whats the crime in that?

Sounds like another Ruby Ridge in the making.

[mgregg85]

Back in the days of netiquette; the rules of debate included that the first
party to play the Hitler/Stalin/Mao card lost.

However, this debate rule got buried a long time ago, so we have to
read through it anyway.

Sounds like you are referring to Godwin's Law. It just says that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

However, Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.

It is often abused, your example would generally be abuse.

[John_galt]

Just want to take a moment here to pointout this is nearly a six year old thread.

[Sam1911]

Sheesh...