[No Fear]

The cultural thing to do is to get a shottie for HD and proclaim that "the bad guy will mess himself when I rack the slide" (a move which reduces the already low capacity and communicates not having a fully loaded magazine).

A friend encountered a burglar and there was a struggle over the shotgun. Apparently the cornered criminal was able to surprise him and grab the barrel. The struggle didn't last long because the guy found a way to run off. My friend said he considered firing but was afraid the shot would spread out too widely and possibly hit family members. After talking about it, he told me he put the big shotgun in the cabinet and if that happens again, the bad guy will be ventilated with 9mm, when first caught, and at close range, before he can grab any long barrel.

[Halffast]

If a bad guys hears the racking sound in my house it's because I just shot his buddy and he's next.

[Schofield3]

If a bad guys hears the racking sound in my house it's because I just shot his buddy and he's next Well said :D

[cerberus65]

I wouldn't shoot at a running away bad guy.

While I'm all for ridding the world of parasites, I don't want to end up in jail. And I don't want to end up sued into poverty in civil court either.

Once the guy is running away it's a lot harder to make the argument that you were in fear of imminent harm or death.

[Lonestar49]

If a bad guys hears the racking sound in my house it's because I just shot his buddy and he's next.



...

Indeed..

+2


Ls

[DRYHUMOR]

I figure the bad guy is in an unfamiliar place, probably got a good adrenaline flow going.

The last thing I would do is rack a slide, or make any noise to give away my position. Then he knows within a foot or 2 exactly where you are and starts to weigh options.

Most times there are only 2, fight or flight. And to odds can change in a heartbeat.

[donato]

I don't have to worry about racking the slide. My double barrel doesn't even make a noise when I slide the safety off. And, you can't even hear any gritty sound in the DA trigger pull of my P-01.

[NC-Mike]

Well I keep the P32 I carry in my nightstand. It's already loaded and won't make a sound till I fire it.

I hope the noise prompts the flight reflex for the bad guy! :(

[H2O MAN]

My M1 Super 90 has no slide to rack, but my G21 is my 1st line of defense.

[OregonJohnny]

This is not my exact opinion, I'm just summarizing what others have suggested in regards to defending yourself and your family in a dwelling using a firearm when you are aware of an intruder:

Get everyone into the master bedroom or other main safe room, take shelter behind the bed or other large object, call police, and keep the muzzle of your shotgun aimed at the entry point. No way will a bad guy be able to cross that threshold and grab your barrel before you pull the trigger.

If however, you are required to work through a house and "clear" it alone, where you might be coming around tight corners in the dark, a shotgun may not be the best choice. But as has been said before, if you can possibly avoid venturing out into your house looking for a bad guy, it's better to leave the room clearing to the police.

So in conclusion: A shotgun is probably best for making a defensive "last stand" in a room behind cover while waiting for police, a handgun is probably best for tight, silent, room clearing operations.

Others with many more years and much more experience under their belts have written volumes on the subject.

[rondog]

That "racking the slide" is just Hollywood BS. Just like every Western ever made shows 'em jacking a levergun before shooting, never just cocking the hammer because there's already a round in there.

[Soldiersurfs]

If the badguy is close enough to grab the barrel its time to pull the trigger. I dont really see this as a warning against HD use of a shotgun. Even with an 18.5" barrel my spead is only about 12" at max HD distances , so that isnt really an issue. And although it might be easier for the bad guy to grab the shotgun its also easier for me to hold onto then any of my pistols.

[rondog]

This is not my exact opinion, I'm just summarizing what others have suggested in regards to defending yourself and your family in a dwelling using a firearm when you are aware of an intruder:

Get everyone into the master bedroom or other main safe room, take shelter behind the bed or other large object, call police, and keep the muzzle of your shotgun aimed at the entry point. No way will a bad guy be able to cross that threshold and grab your barrel before you pull the trigger.

If however, you are required to work through a house and "clear" it alone, where you might be coming around tight corners in the dark, a shotgun may not be the best choice. But as has been said before, if you can possibly avoid venturing out into your house looking for a bad guy, it's better to leave the room clearing to the police.

So in conclusion: A shotgun is probably best for making a defensive "last stand" in a room behind cover while waiting for police, a handgun is probably best for tight, silent, room clearing operations.

Others with many more years and much more experience under their belts have written volumes on the subject.


My God, just exactly how big IS your house? If there's an intruder in your home, do you really think you're going to be able to arm yourself, wake everybody up, herd them into a "safe room" behind cover, call the po-po, and cover the entryway?

Most folks live in normal sized houses, and any intruder will be encountered within seconds. Ain't gonna be any wakin' and herdin' done.

[CWL]

No Fear,
Take a SD shotgun class, not a "safety class" but a real SD class. It will take away every misconception you just posted.

That investment will teach you why shotties are devastating close-up weapons. I've never been to one that taught you to "rack the slide", I think you are referring to movies rather than real-world.

As for one-less in the tube, you obviously do not understand round selection tactics/training for shotguns. This is a benefit, not a weakness. "low capacity"???? Each of my 12ga shells contains 9 rounds of 00 buck, how many bullets can you shoot with one trigger-pull of a pistol?

As for somebody grabbing the shotgun -this is actually a perfect method for the BG to help you aim your shottie. I won't go into details on a public forum, but having a BG grab the shotgun is a perfect method for you to ventilate the BG and reduce the chance for stray buck.

[oneounceload]

not necessarily so - a "normal" size two-story home with bedrooms all on the second floor might have exactly his scenario.



please don't "aim", POINT your shotGUN at an intruder...("shotty" is SO immature and mall-ninjaesque)

how many shots can you fire from one pull of your shotgun's trigger? Probably the same as I can from my pistol - one per pull...(NFA fans notwithstanding)

[OregonJohnny]

"My God, just exactly how big IS your house? If there's an intruder in your home, do you really think you're going to be able to arm yourself, wake everybody up, herd them into a "safe room" behind cover, call the po-po, and cover the entryway?

Most folks live in normal sized houses, and any intruder will be encountered within seconds. Ain't gonna be any wakin' and herdin' done."

???

Read the first sentence in my first post again. Not my opinion, just summarizing what others have said. Don't shoot the messenger (no pun intended).

From Larry Correia, Utah Firearms Instructor, sourced from corneredcat.com -

"First off, clearing your house by yourself is usually a bad idea. Don’t do it unless you have to. To illustrate, play this game with your kids or your spouse. Have them be the bad guy somewhere in your house. Now, you go find them. Who sees who first? Right, usually they see you coming.

So if possible, take up a defensive position that covers the entrance to your room and your kid’s rooms and call 911. In this scenario long gun totally wins."

[357wheelgunner]

When I learned how to disarm people armed with handguns and rifles I thought "Who the hell is going to let me get close enough to grab their rifle or pistol? They can shoot me from a distance away...."

Apparently some people get way too close to home invaders and other adversaries.

Don't ever let someone get close enough to grab your gun...

[BruceRDucer]

/

will be ventilated with 9mm-----NoFear

This is a disppointment. You mean to tell me that your friend failed to provide proper ventilation? What kind of courtesy izzat?:what:


Why that ain't no manners at all!

:neener::neener::neener::neener::neener:

[BruceRDucer]

/

If a bad guys hears the racking sound in my house it's because I just shot his buddy and he's next.--Halffast


Yeah, I pretty much appreciated this one too.

The tendency of people toward an indecisive
nature, wherein they don't know the difference between "Come!" & "Go Sic'em" just gripes my liver.

/:scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::what:


/

[missouri dave]

Depends on your situation. The wife and I don't have anyone else in the house to worry about. I'd open hostilities with the 12 bore and when it's empty transition to the beretta 9mm. I'll stop firing as soon as opposition ceases. If the perp is close enough to grab the shotgun he's dead whether he grabs it or not. It IS getting discharged!

[Merkelman]

Only need to rack the slide after you shoot the first BG.

[GIGGIDY]

Proper training and a "Do not accept defeat" mind set will almost always overcome the "shortcomings" described by the OP. If you have a plan ahead of time for a home intruder scenario you are miles ahead and likely will be the one alive at the end of it all.

[Murexway]

As others have said, no one solution fits everyone's situation, although shot size can be tailored to address penetration concerns (within reason).

As for those who assert that their hangun fires the same one round with each pull of the trigger, each one of my #1 buck rounds spews out 16, 7.62mm projectiles.

I've also been educated to believe that, due to the lack of an internal firing pin block, a shotgun with a round in the chamber is more likely than a handgun to discharge if accidentally dropped. Thus, I keep the chamber empty until a round is needed.

I certainly don't recommend depending upon the sound of a pump shotgun being racked to scare away a hot-prowl burgler - one of the scariest types of criminals one might ever encounter. But in my personal experience as a former LEO, that sound froze more than one out of control situation.

Of course in those situations everyone knew I was there. Which is why I agree with those who wouldn't want to give away their position in a dark bedroom with such a noise.

Thus my plan is to sit quietly in the dark and when the bad guy appears (and is positively identified as such - not a family member) the last sound he will hear is KACHUNKBAM.

[Gunfighter123]

I beg to differ with most replies --- I have done/seen that the "racking" of a 12ga. pumpgun does some amazeing things. I have seen it "sober" more then one drunk rowdy. And once , outside at night , I scared the crap out of a county LE officier when I heard a fight going on outside my house , in my yard. I went outside and from a dark spot , seen someone creeping around by my garage -- as I "racked" my Rem. 870 --- the policeman turned on his flashlight and still could not tell where I was. After I knew it WAS a LE , I called to him and the first thing that he said was to put down the SHOTGUN !!! EVERYBODY knows what the sound of a SG being racked is !!!

[onebigelf]

I load slugs. No spread, it's going where I put it, and NOBODY is getting back up from it. I keep an empty chamber. If there is any distance I believe in the pacifying force of sheer terror. At point-blank range or other need... it's an Ithica 37 riot gun with an 18" barrel. Why? Because as far as I know *only Ithica fires as you slam the slide forward if you are holding the trigger down*. Know your equipment. Make it work for you.

John

[Dave McCracken]

Whew....

First, as stated, "Clearing" a house is not usually a good idea. Taking up a position between danger and one's family is much better.

Second, does anyone on this thread know Mr Patterning Board? At typical HD ranges, the spread of shot is less than a saucer wide.

Third, if any perp gets to grab a barrel, you've made a tragic mistake already. However, if a perp did grab mine, I'd simply drop. If he were able to hold me up by holding the shotgun barrel, shooting him will probably not inconvenience him much.

Otherwise, I'd fire as soon as the muzzle traversed any of his body parts and move on to the next threat.

As for scaring him with the rack, he won't be scared long. My guess, roughly .5 seconds. After that he will not care one whit.

[SoCalShooter]

If a bad guys hears the racking sound in my house it's because I just shot his buddy and he's next.

LAWLERS thanks for the laugh. Personally I keep a mossy 590 with the bayonet attached, chamber empty but ready to go just the same, I also know my house extremely well and can navigate it in the dark with few problems if any, I also have a pillow gun .45 and a tacticat. But like others have posted you have to prepare and train for the scenario.. Also keep a very bright tactical light with you I use a supertac and I have a surefire G3 on my shotgun, both are enough to light up an entire room. Also NEVER let'em get that close its your house and you should be able to keep distance between you and the intruder if you know where he is if not thats what the buttstock is for.

[Ricky B]

Because as far as I know *only Ithica fires as you slam the slide forward if you are holding the trigger down*.

I have read (but don't know for sure) that the old Winchester model 12's had this feature. Don't know if current models still do.

[TexasRifleman]

A friend encountered a burglar and there was a struggle over the shotgun.

There's a whole lot missing from the story. The TYPE of firearm in use does not seem to be the problem here. Burglary pretty much by definition means there is no one home so... you mean robbery?

"Burglary is typically defined as the unlawful entry into almost any structure (not just a home or business) with the intent to commit any crime inside (not just theft/larceny). No physical breaking and entering is required; the offender may simply trespass through an open door."

My friend said he considered firing but was afraid the shot would spread out too widely and possibly hit family members.

If a person cannot pull the trigger when the time comes then perhaps firearms should not be around at all.

[B yond]

I've been saying for a long time that shotguns are not the ideal weapon to confront an intruder with for that very reason. Shotguns are great home defense weapons when used properly, but that means barricading yourself and your family in a bedroom on the side of the bed opposite the door, with the shotty trained on the door and 911 on the phone.

If you're going to confront a bad guy or clear a building (not that that's a good idea), use a pistol. It is harder for an opponent to gain control of and can be fired from a retention position while you fight them off with your weak hand.

http://www.right2defend.com/web%20images/cr3.jpg

[XavierBreath]

Take a SD shotgun class, not a "safety class" but a real SD class.

Well said.

Tactics lost the day in this encounter. The same thing could have happened with a 9mm pistol, in fact worse.

If the intruder is lying in ambush beside the door you are entering through, what makes you think he will not get his hands on your 9mm pistol? When he does, he can and most likely will throw the slide out of battery, rendering the pistol inoperable.

This is a software problem, not a hardware problem. Your friend needs new software. He needs competent training in effective use of the shotgun for home defense. Then he needs to apply it. Classes are available.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45537&stc=1&d=1159494211

Chances are your friend's attacker was within 10 feet of him while he held on to the shotgun. If he knew how shotguns patterned, he would not be "afraid the shot would spread out too widely and possibly hit family members.."

It never ceases to amaze me how a poor workman blames his tools.

[Colorado]

I know the THR is a GUN forum and I am a gun guy, but what the hell are you so worried about?
If you are that G-D paranoid about someone coming in your home and shooting you, what are you up to?
You want to stop a "BG"????
First of all, leave your outside lights on, and then get a dog. As a former "BG", I never entered a home with lights on (on the outside), and never went near a dog. You should know, and probably do, that lights on, INSIDE your home only, was like window shopping.
Second is get a baseball bat and keep it by your bed, and your front door and a place or two where you know, and no one else does. I prefer the business end of a pool cue myself. If you hear something you don't like... swing away. You will hit a home run!! Talk about being stealthy! No "racking" or pumping.
And, for the record: the Cha-ching of a "rack", WILL make a BG sh*t his or her pants.
Sleep tight!

[BullpupBen]

1. Mount a bayonet, very very few are gonna have the balls to try and grab something that can easily be stabbed through their chest (and no worry about family members)

2. He should not have gotten that close to the BG anyway

[missouri dave]

I'll second that bit about the sound of the action being shucked actually working. Through a silly misunderstanding I once was on the recieving end of that. You WILL have the badguys complete and undivided attention.

[CWL]

("shotty" is SO immature and mall-ninjaesque)

oneounce, do you feel like a big man now? Do you run around gun ranges telling people what they are doing wrong (in your mind)?

I've been in combat, have you? I've also trained with some of the best firearms trainers living today both military and LE, have you?

I DO aim my shottie, that's why I have rifle sights on mine. For those hostage/barrier head-shots using 00 buck, I don't point.

It is my gun, I'll call it what I want.

If you feel the need to post anything, try adding some useful content... :rolleyes:

[boalex207]

At typical HD ranges, the spread of shot is less than a saucer wide.

Dave, what are you calling typical HD ranges ? 20 feet and in maybe ?

[kcshooter]

Ineptitude with a shotgun can easily translate to ineptitude with a pistol. Your friend doesn't need a different gun, he needs training.

What was the warning part? That racking the slide doesn't always make them poop themselves??


(I also hate the term shottie. And Remmie, Winny, Mossy, any cutesy name for a gun is just plain goofy, in my opinion.)


1. Mount a bayonet::sigh::

[Dave McCracken]

At 8 yards, my load of choice from a chokeless barrel is about 5" wide.That's the max shot possible in Casa McC.

As I've written more than once, best to MEASURE the longest possible shot opp in your domicile, add a yard and pattern loads at that distance.

Some of us worship at the altar of Maximum Spread. Some at that of Tight Patterns. I'm with the latter. I want ALL that energy concentrated in a small area of the CNS.

Let's review the Effectiveness Ladder.

From most to least.....

Big holes, center mass.

Small holes, center mass.

Big holes,elsewhere.

Small holes, elsewhere.

Scare him with the noise or just show him the Kewl Pics of your "Shotty" you posted on the Net instead of shooting the thing.....

[dmarbell]

I sleep upstairs. If I woke up and heard a BG downstairs, it seems to me that a loud racking of a pump would accomplish a couple of things.

1) if the BG was a burgler only, without firearms and without intent to harm, just to burgle, then the racking sound might deter.

2) the racking sound would alert the BG to the location and type of firearm, and then he might,
A) come to find you, which in your own home could give you an advantage, and eliminate the need for house clearing, or
B) stop to wait for you to clear the house, at which time you would be calling the police.

Keep in mind when I would rack the slide, I would already be in a defensive position with the bed between me and the door, with my phone already dialing 911.

I can't see any reason not to rack the slide. It's easily accompanied by a loud shout of "I have a gun and I will shoot you, and I've called the police." If they advance and I miss with 5 rounds of shotgun shells, 7 rounds of .380s, 6 rounds of .44 magnum hollow points, 6 7-round magazines in my .45 GI with one in the chamber, I'm toast.

Danny

[Crazy Fingers]

Unless you got a huge house or very long hallways, the shot isn't going to spread that much. It's not like it's going to fly out of the muzzle at a 30 degree angle to the point you are aiming at or something.

As for him grabbing the muzzle... slice the pie. And don't do it right next to the corner.

[76shuvlinoff]

When possible I gotta go with the dog recommendation. Great if you have a K9 sentry outside your house and great to have one or more inside. They see, hear, and have a better sense of smell than you ever will. No BG wants the attention and there should be plenty of time to chamber a round once the alarm is sounded if that's how you prefer to keep your weapon staged ..and not much real chance of needing it provided the BG has any survival sense at all.

[Rshooter]

I liked what Colorado said. Maybe I am overboard. I have five big dogs, not pit bulls or rotwellers, just mutts that others have chosen to dump in my yard. You will not get into my house unannounced. I will have time to load the howitzers. :what:

[powermad]

This has been my house gun for over 10 years.
One in the chamber and safety off.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/powermad69/Guns/P1000267.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/powermad69/Guns/P1000266.jpg

You have to plan for these type of things. Sad but true.

I not only have a fire plan but an intruder plan as well.
And if the toolbox gets opened, everyone knows how to get busy.

[powermad]

Dogs as a deterrent?? What about us poor slobs that don't have that luxury?

Oohh more lights that will keep em away.
They aren't bogymen that vanish with the light.

And while you are on 911 explaining that your call is actually an emergency and getting transferred around to whoever gives a crap, just keep hollerin that you have called the police and they are on the way.

I have a new dog.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/powermad69/P1010067.jpg

[Fred Fuller]

One in the chamber and safety off.

I seriously hope that was a typo... otherwise it's an accident/tragedy waiting to happen.

lpl

[Matt-J2]

I don't see how, but ok, I guess.

[moga]

A friend encountered a burglar and there was a struggle over the shotgun.

I'm much more interested in hearing the exact details of how how your friend encountered this burglar. It will likely reveal a lot more noteworthy lessons than second guessing the choice of his weaponry.

I'll also second the poster that says if he's close enough to grab then its been long time to shoot.

Yet, there's something that I find curious. Why were his family members around when he "could have" shot but not helping to corral the burglar? What was he doing, clearing the house with his pop-pop and nanny? Was this a home invasion hot burglary? It doesn't sound like it from your account. Why would the family be present when the struggle is taking place? Not calling BS but it smells a little fishy.

To those that say a pistol is the better HD choice. I would say it depends on the layout of your house. For instance, I have many open spaces in my floor plan and few corners to navigate as a result. If it were the closest at hand, I wouldn't mind grabbing the 590 to check things out. Then again, the only time I leave the master to investigate is if I hear something outside. Sixteen zones of monitored alarm and two freely roaming bullmastiffs inside will tip me off if something ain't right in the house, in which case its time to barricade, not investigate.

In fact, the pistol does usually gets the nod while running a perimeter check.

[Murexway]

"I have five big dogs, not pit bulls or rotwellers, just mutts that others have chosen to dump in my yard. You will not get into my house unannounced. I will have time to load the howitzers."
The Romans used geese for the same purpose.... :)

[Murexway]

"One in the chamber and safety off."Lord help you!

[SwampWolf]

Racking a shotgun for sound effects only says to the bad guy, "Hey, I'm over here!"

As a retired le, my experience has been that drugged up and/or crazies pay no mind to the "clack-clack" of a pumpgun being readied for service. It only tells them where you're at- a location I'd much rather keep to myself.

[mauiglide]

I live in a small apartement. It would be hard to sneak up on a BG and I don't think that would be wise. I would light up the potential threat first with my SureFire handheld. If it is a BG, I would yell to get out and I've got a gun. If I then feel threatened, I would shoot at the COM until the threat has stopped.