Rock River AR 15


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tcrocker
October 15, 2008, 10:05 PM
Just got off the phone with RR about a AR NM Iordered 4 weeks ago the man told me 4 to 8 week. So I called them I was waiting to hear it would ship in a week or two. They told me it would ship in15 weeks:I under staind being a little behind but 15 weeks on a upper:fire: As you can tell I'm not all that happy about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Eightball
October 15, 2008, 10:32 PM
It's election season; all the manufactures of "cool stuff" are going to be running behind keeping up with demand. For an upper? Yeah, that sounds nuts, but keep in mind that ARs are the most popular rifles in the US right now, and RRA is a popular manufacturer.

I hate to be harsh, but this might be one of those "first come, first serve" type things.

Picard
October 15, 2008, 10:34 PM
I ordered one from Del-Ton and had it in my hands in about a week. They actually shipped it next day.

gvnwst
October 15, 2008, 10:43 PM
i just ordered a Spikes tactical .22 upper, it is suppossed to get here in 6-8 weeks, i hope it does. be stocking up on bulk pack till then.....

Soke
October 15, 2008, 11:12 PM
Ugh...this really makes me wish stag sold 1/7's.

taliv
October 15, 2008, 11:59 PM
dude, do not order direct from RR. if you want one, call everyone in their distributor list and find someone with it in stock.

ProCarryNAustin
October 16, 2008, 12:00 AM
So that you know I feel your pain, I'm on week 4 of 8-10 weeks. Given the political climate and current demand, I'm just glad I am in the queue. It will be a long wait, but 10 kinds of Woooohooooo when it gets here. Just spend the time getting your ammo, optics and what-not. My boss is probably expecting me to come down with 24 hour rifle-itis the day it gets here. Its been going around. LOL!

Daniel
Austin, Texas

tcrocker
October 16, 2008, 12:01 AM
I ordered from a distributor

taliv
October 16, 2008, 12:32 AM
you mean just now? or originally? cause when you say you just got off the phone with RR...

twofourthree73
October 16, 2008, 12:46 AM
Check out AIM.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/CMMG_.223_5.56x45_AR15_Mid_Length_16__Complete_Upper_Half.html

PvtPyle
October 16, 2008, 02:31 AM
Buy a Stag or DPMS. Or a CMMG or a DSA. All better guns, cheaper and most places have them available.

benzy2
October 16, 2008, 04:06 AM
Any way to back up the "better guns" part?

cat9x
October 16, 2008, 10:18 AM
2 years ago I ordered an upper directly from RR, it took 10 weeks...your pain is understood.

btw it was worth the wait.

turbohardtop
October 16, 2008, 10:44 AM
I have been waiting 14 weeks. Mine should be showing up in a week or two.

tcrocker
October 16, 2008, 09:25 PM
I orded it 4 weeks ago from a dealer, but RR is going to ship to me so I called them and got that14 weeks.

f4t9r
October 16, 2008, 10:06 PM
Buy a Stag or DPMS. Or a CMMG or a DSA. All better guns

Negative !!!!!!!!!!
Rock River makes a very good product. Others are good also I just would not call them better. Last show in my area had plenty of RRA for sale on the spot. I like RRA,Bushmaster & Stag

lionken07
October 16, 2008, 10:21 PM
RRA makes very good stuff. I waited 3 months for mine, they are very tight fitted guns!! around 1,000 rounds thru mine and works perfectly!


Every RRA gun is made to order. That's also why they offer so many options on their guns.

PvtPyle
October 16, 2008, 10:32 PM
Well, if you were an armorer and had all those nifty gauges to throw on a RRA, you would see that they take some fine components, mostly from Stag or their parent company, and do a piss poor job of putting them together. I have seen bolt after bolt come thru that was not properly staked, I have worked on everyone of the guns that the DCS has at the prision thru the shop for various reasons....

RRA does not use milspec buffer tubes instead they use a cheap Chinese knock off. I have had to replace trigger sets because they failed (most shooters dont know how to use a 2 stage trigger and it makes about as much sense on a battle rifle as teats on a steer so it is wasted on the average shooters).

There are lots of other short cuts they take as well. The lack of a chrome lined bbl is just a cheap way to go. The crap they give about the thicker bbl under the handguards being more accurate is also bunk. The M4 tapper of any of the ones I listed are every bit as accurate. And the ER Shaw bbls of the Stag have shown to be MORE accurate with the right grain weight.

In short, as an Armorer for an Army SF unit, I would not feel safe carrying a RRA gun into combat and would give my guys AK before I let them do so. Yeah, my professional opinion of them is that bad. And I guess the DEA agrees since they canceled the contract early.

If you like yours great, you couldn't GIVE me one.

FlyinBryan
October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
get a bushmaster

ProCarryNAustin
October 16, 2008, 11:29 PM
Hi PvtPyle.

Would you mind posting some supporting links for your points above? Other than the staking issue, I cannot seem to find references to the issues you are taking with them.

Thanks.

Daniel
Austin, Texas

navajo
October 16, 2008, 11:38 PM
Keep seeing mention of staking problems. The only bad staking job I have seen was on a friends original, never fired XM177 he got form his father nlaw.
Half way through the second mag it went "clink".
Broke it open and one of the staking screws was gone. And it was a Colt.

Which proves nothing except any one can make a lemon.

As for RRA, I am little long in the tooth to hump a ruck so I won't be carrying anything into combat.
Should things get nasty I'd grab my M1A any way. Pushing 30 years and never had a malfunction. Ever.

PvtPyle
October 16, 2008, 11:44 PM
No, try it youraself. I dont know if there are links, these are from personal experience.

Try putting a milspec stock on their tube.

Look at their catalog. Chrome lining is extra when for everyone else it is standard.

Ask them why their barrel is thicker under the handguard, then ask gunsite what their results from the last Vet carbine class was when they zero'd the guns.

A friend in the unit told me they were not getting any more RRA guns in the DEA (he is actually an Agent) because the guns were sub standard.

And finally, you can go and get your own set of gauges and test their guns yourself. They are wacked. They only thing on the gun worth a $#!t is the upper, lower receivers and the bolt itself. They were made by CMT. RRA is a slap together assembly shop, nothing more. And BM is not much better.

ProCarryNAustin
October 16, 2008, 11:59 PM
Milspec stock fits the tube on my lower I received just two months ago.

Chrome lining as an extra is not that unusual. For better or worse, some folks don't feel the need for chrome lining. I personally could take it or leave it.

If you have a contact name, I will be happy to give them a call. I don't personally have a contact at Gunsite. I'm sure they wouldn't respond well to a blind call from some guy they don't know. I would also be interested in if the tests were done as part of a controlled exercise and not skewed by the marksmanship of the folks bringing the rifles.

I would prefer to see an actual announcement from DEA instead of hearsay. I'm sure your friend has the inside line, but things like cancelled contracts are usually easy to find reference to. DEA is a public agency after all.

I have plenty of friends with an assortment of rifles from RRA. None have any regrets on their purchase, not one. Folks that sell them also seem to be pretty optimistic about them. These same folks post here and on ar15.com and tend to be very vocal about brands they sell and don't like.

Nothing personal. Yours was the first post I have seen about them being trash. Was hoping to see more support for your arguments.

Daniel
Austin, Texas

longdayjake
October 17, 2008, 12:15 AM
Buy a Stag or DPMS. Or a CMMG or a DSA. All better guns, cheaper and most places have them available.

I don't know about the others but I will say one thing. DPMS sucks! Or atleast my experience with it did.

I own a RRA and owned a DPMS. As of today the DPMS out of many many guns is the only one I have sold because it could not print a group with any loads I tried. It just plain sucked.


I would also like to add that the chrome lined barrel supposedly is not condusive to excellent accuracy. If someone is buying a barrel for accuracy they may choose either the stainless or a non-chrome barrel. Also, The crap they give about the thicker bbl under the handguards being more accurate is also bunk. Well, I can't argue about how accurate the thicker barrel is to the thinner barrel but I will say that it is proven that thicker barrels take more time to heat up and maintain original POI a lot better than thin barrels that heat up faster. Not only that but they have more surface area to dissipate heat. These two qualities make it more condusive to sustained accuracy during sustained firing. If this were not true then there would not be a market for thick bull barrels. Lastly, just because something isn't mil spec doesn't mean it is no good. The military does many things well, but that does not mean they do everthing perfectly. RRA is a fine rifle. My bolt came staked well so I can't complain about anything in my gun.

My RRA shoots 20 shot groups all within 1" at 100 yards. That is with the chrome lined barrel that I paid a whole $20 extra for. I did have some malfunctions when I first got it but then I read somewhere that ARs should be oiled liberally. Once I put some oil on it there have been no more problems.

lionken07
October 17, 2008, 12:20 AM
My RRA feels "tighter" than the bushmaster, DPMS..and shoot the same if not better.

For someone to have that much against RRA is not something that I see often o.o I would really like to see something that backup what you are saying PvtPyle.

Then again I've never taken my RRA to battle so i do not know how they will handle day after day in the battlefield. Maybe more people that have actually taken their RRA to battle can come in and education us?

jerkface11
October 17, 2008, 12:21 AM
I'd cancel the order if I were you. It's silly to have to wait that long for a standard AR. Just find one from someone else. Maybe a Charles Daly.

cbrgator
October 17, 2008, 12:30 AM
It's all about Stag.

insidious_calm
October 17, 2008, 12:56 AM
I too had a bad experience with RR. I ordered an upper that had chamber problems. I thought I had it fixed by polishing it, and posted so on here, but alas the trouble returned. I still use it for plinking and burning off ammo but it is not reliable and I would not use it in a situation where a FTE due to stuck case would place me in jeopardy. I think it may actually be a .223 chamber rather than 5.56. The barrel is not marked. Anyway, I would not purchase again. .02


I.C.

10-Ring
October 17, 2008, 01:04 AM
Funny, I had my RRA mid length upper in less than 7 days after I ordered it....interesting
Since then, I have put together a CMMG 9mm and a DPMS 7.62 X 39 -- all have been reliable companions ;)

ProCarryNAustin
October 17, 2008, 01:24 AM
Hi I.C.

"I ordered an upper that had chamber problems."

Any reason why you did not return it to RRA under warranty? They have a lifetime warranty.

Daniel
Austin, Texas

PvtPyle
October 17, 2008, 02:47 AM
Well, let me ask you this..... Did you read the report that HK handguards reach 750 degrees F in only 90 rounds on semi-auto? Probably not because HK doesn't want you to. You think they dunk them in water to show how tough they are? You can do that with a normal AR. Did you read how the 416 self destructs in the lab after about 7k rounds? Probably not. What about that recent, very extensive testing has shown all of the current types of piston uppers are showing the same type of problems that they did 30 years ago when they tried this crap? Did you know CAG were such huge fans of the guns because they got new uppers every 3-5k rounds and thats why they wanted to keep them? Why not? Because it doesn't sell magazines or products.

Did you read how SIG has two different production lines? One is for civilians and the other is for high use LEO/MIL customers, their being made to a much higher standard?

What about how Glocks in use by Federal Agencies in 40 cal tend to blow up with alarming frequency? Go to any armsroom at any FLETC and ask the armorers to see the buckets of glocks that have gone up.

So do you really think the DEA would put out a white paper advertising this, or that RRA would? Just because I am not going to reveal my sources under any circumstances does not mean they aren't true. But the companies know that I am dead on the money. And those who know me know where I get my info from and what my background is. They also know I bust jibblies of every one of these substandard manufacturers at the trade shows. And they also know that I am happy to slaps some gauges on any of these products and compair them to the mil requirments any time. In most cases I already have they just dont meet the basic standards.

rob_s
October 17, 2008, 05:33 AM
I would tend to agree with the poster above that at least puts RRA above DPMS.

As to the wait times, everyone else hit the nail on the head, don't order direct from RRA. Ever.

JDGray
October 17, 2008, 06:23 AM
http://www.ar15sales.com/index.htm

Try this guy, largest stocking RRA dealer, great pricing:)

ProCarryNAustin
October 17, 2008, 09:27 AM
PvtPyle,

No disrespect intended, but "I'm in the know" does nothing to support your assertions. Your statments about Rock River contradict my own personal experience along with the experience of folks I know personally and everything I have read about them. "I'm in the know" doesn't fly well on the internet. It also does not fly well in the judicial system, corporate structures, the military or any other place I have knowledge of.

Adding additional unsupported and unrelated statements to bolster your argument also does nothing to support your position. I have nothing against moderators having strong opinions on the forum, but I really would expect more from moderators on this forum specifically.

If you have some support that you could provide for your position, I will be delighted to take a look at it and learn what I can from it. If not, then your post is simply unsubstatiated opinion at best.

Daniel
Austin, Texas

rc109a
October 17, 2008, 10:03 AM
PvtPyle: I have been an amour for several years (military and civilian) and have seen nothing about RRA that would lead me to believe that they were not a good product. I agree the wait is just stupid, but the product is sound.
I have had access to the .mil documents and still have not seen any reports like that. I am currently working with a company that does contract work for military and civilians for overseas jobs and they have not heard anything like what your talking about (they deal with RRA, Colt, Bushmaster for all AR needs).
If you are going to come in hear and bash a product, please have proof of your claim or let it go. Do not bash those that doubt you because you brag about your secret squirrel job on the internet. There are a lot of Internet Special Forces Units out there doing the same thing. Look at both sides of the argument, and think about which you would believe. A person claiming to be knowledgeable or one who can prove he is. If you are aware and cannot state your sources (due to security concerns), then you should never have even mentioned it. That alone is a security violation. PM me if you want to discuss further.

hags
October 17, 2008, 10:24 AM
RRA does not use milspec buffer tubes instead they use a cheap Chinese knock off. I have had to replace trigger sets because they failed (most shooters dont know how to use a 2 stage trigger and it makes about as much sense on a battle rifle as teats on a steer so it is wasted on the average shooters).

Please, send me your failed RRA NM two-stage trigger sets. I can have them up and running again, better than stock, in about 10-15 minutes. The RRA NM two-stage has a reputation for losing it's first stage within about 1000 rounds. This does not compromise it's function however it just makes them single stage triggers.
This is easily remedied. Newer NM triggers are better but can still benefit from moding prior to installment.

So do you really think the DEA would put out a white paper advertising this, or that RRA would? Just because I am not going to reveal my sources under any circumstances does not mean they aren't true. But the companies know that I am dead on the money. And those who know me know where I get my info from and what my background is. They also know I bust jibblies of every one of these substandard manufacturers at the trade shows. And they also know that I am happy to slaps some gauges on any of these products and compair them to the mil requirments any time. In most cases I already have they just dont meet the basic standards.

While I wouldn't disagree with alot of what you've stated, I think not naming your sources really goes along way to discrediting your arguments.

You can slap gauges on just about any firearm I handled while in the military. I'm sure most of them were out of spec. and I can tell you from first hand experience most were rattle traps or "loosey goosey". Function and reliability are what we're after, not conformance to a blueprint.
I agree about the "buffer tube" as you refer to it or better yet the "receiver extension" as it's commonly refered to. Some of the RRA receiver extensions I have dealt with are crap. I have put "mil-spec" buttstocks on some and have not had any problems. They are really inconsistent.

I don't think RRA ARs are garbage as a whole. I have been out to their factory and they are pretty much just assemblers. They buy parts from "real" manufacturers and slap them together, just like alot of other so-called manufacturers.

hags
October 17, 2008, 10:30 AM
PvtPyle: I have been an armour for several years (military and civilian) and have seen nothing about what your talking about in regard to RRA. I agree the wait is just stupid, but the product is sound. I have access to the .mil documents as well and still have not seen any reports like that. I also work closely with a company that does contract work for military and civilians for overseas jobs and they too have not heard what your talking about (they deal with RRA, Colt, Bushmaster for all AR needs) when they heard about your comments. If your going to come in hear and bash a product, please have proof of your claim or let it go. Don't bash those that doubt you because you brag about your secret squirrel job on the internet. There are a lot of Internet Special Forces Units out there doing the same thing. Look at both sides of the argument and think about which you would believe. A guy claiming to be knowledgable or one who can prove he is. If you are in the know and cannot reviel your sources (due to security concerns) of information, then you should never have even said a word since that is a violation in itself. PM me if you want to discuss further.

I do understand some of your points but it's difficult to get them across when they're a little difficult to read.
I do like your line of "Internet Special Forces". I however do deal with military personel quite frequently as I do ship to APOs.

rc109a
October 17, 2008, 10:37 AM
Hags: I have edited the post on your behalf. Thanks for the correction!

bluedog
October 17, 2008, 01:17 PM
tcrocker,
Spoke to Pete at AR sales a month ago, and he said 4-6 weeks. Two weeks ago he said 8-11 weeks. There's a seller on Gunbroker who had/has RR competition Service Rifles in stock. got mine a couple of weeks ago and it arrive promptly. There hadn't been any bids and he kept relisting, so I put in a minimum amount. The end price was cheaper than retail, but more than the hard-to-find best deals.

My gas key will have to be restaked, as none of the punches reached the bolt head.

dust_101
October 17, 2008, 01:34 PM
Also keep in mind folks that most of the uppers are all made by the same forge (Cardinal if I recall correctly?) so you're getting similar products if it has a Deer, or a Snake, or whathaveyou on the side. The barrel and bolt make the difference.

As for waiting 10 weeks for an Upper? I'd honestly just go find a lightly used one somewhere and rebuild it to my specs in those 10 weeks, for probably the same price. Just keep in mind there are other options.

PvtPyle
October 17, 2008, 01:52 PM
I spent 5 years as an Armorer for the 1/19th SFG(A) here in Utah. It is no secret and not exactly a violation of persec as I have been on the news talking about my job and our deployment, and it is well know in our area. And now my now my wife and I speak to return soldier and their families in the western US. As for it getting out there, it's way too late. I'm not concerned with it and neither is my COC.

As for my statements about RRA, if you are a 45B20 and not a 92Y and have the gauges to slap on one, do so. Dont take my work for it, or anyone elses. You will also need the Army TM 8-1006-318-23&P and you can get the EB/4081/C06/1515 Engineering Document from somewhere on the net and look it over. If you have M4's in your unit you should have it anyway since it directly addresses functionality issues with the M4.

So take the manuals and start checking torqe specs on the carrier key bolts. Also check the diagram showing proper and improper stake jobs. The metal is supposed to dimple the bolts, not just come in contact with it. The proper way uses the same dimple across both.

Now lets move to the barrel and you will need your torque wrench again. Pop the delta ring off. How much force did THAT take?

And finally, my favorite, loosen that castle nut. Now if your gun was made in the last few years you will need a replacement castle nut and probably the tube as well. They can not stake the ring to the receiver back plate because they use MIM. If they staked it the castle nut would crack. Chances are when you take it off the ring will shatter of it will turn the entire tube stripping the threads on the buffer tube. It does that because they use locktite. That is crap. Lazy and cheap.

Look, if you are happy with your RRA that is great. It will probably serve you quite well. But for high use customers I hate to see someone buy something for a hundred dollars more than another better built product.

As far as the "I'm in the know", well ok. I can accept that. But I'm not going to loose sleep over it. Ask around. There are plenty of people here and at other boards that know I am not blowing smoke. As do my customers here. But I have been doing this for a few days and I am perfectly to happy to throw gauges on their guns at SHOT or any other show and see how they stack up. IF they would let me.

If all you get your info from is trade rags, then I can understand why you have not seen a bad review. Bad reviews dont sell advertising, and RRA spends a TON on advertising. But good advertising does not equal good product. You need to get out there and try to find reports from some of the Federal Agencies. Because of our close proximity with several of the Federal Armorers and Agencies, we get to talk shop with them at shows and courses. Our staff has several LEO's on staff and a significant number of 18 series guys. Word gets around rather quickly when something goes wrong just like in everything in life. If you are military and have M4's, you should try to cultivate relationships with the civilian armorers at Bragg and Crane. Get on ATTARs and see what courses that are out there that may let you attend even if you aren't a SOCCOM asset. Thats where you get to know people and get info from behind the curtain.


So for everyone else, take it for what its worth. I have not stake in this, I'm not the one selling you the gun. I dont really care what you buy and dont get all butt hurt if you dont like the same product as me. But I hate to see people spend more money on an infreior product.

hags
October 17, 2008, 02:29 PM
Wow, this has moved way off topic and has turned into some kind of pissing contest.

Nothing if anything to do with the OP. :)

As far as shows go they are a world apart from the field.

Speaking of parts composition and manufacturig techniques there are probably a dozen or so companies out there that make "commercial" ARs as opposed to "mil-spec" ARs. So let's not just pick on RRA.

Don't get your info from magazines or shows. Talk to people in the field that use them in the field, military, LE or otherwise.

PvtPyle
October 17, 2008, 03:24 PM
No, it has drifted slightly. You ask what my bonafides were and I gave them to you.

You ask what my sources were for my comments, and I gave you some hard facts that you can test yourself, use the manuals and gauges to see for yourself while I gave you some of where I get my info from. And it isn't the trade mags.

I told you where the RRA products were inferior, and I agree. You can ask the end users. Here in the US it is Colt, other countries use the DPMS and BM guns, but the only people thata were using RRA have stopped because of QC issues. Take it or leave it. I gave you the manuals where you could find the correct measurements and specs, I told you what to check to back up my claims that they build and infreior product. The other manufacturers I listed build them as close as they can to MILSPEC and use better components. And there are no companies out there that make MILSPEC AR's for the civilian community. Period. They can't because of the 86 ban. MILSPEC requires select fire. But some come mighty close. Colt is by far the closest.

You ask, I responded. I bet you sell them so you have an emotional and financial stake in this. If they made a product that I thought was of the quality for the dollar, I would still carry them. We did carry them until the started cutting corners. YMMV, but that is just my .02

rob_s
October 17, 2008, 04:13 PM
DPMS though? C'mon. Credibility goes out the window when anyone recommends DPMS. They do everything wrong that RRA does and then some.

ProCarryNAustin
October 17, 2008, 04:27 PM
PvtPyle

Thank you very much for your opinion, which you are entitled to.

For me, and this is the part that is my opinion, I could care less about measurements as long as I have parts interchangebility (which I have), reliability (which I have) and accuracy (which I have in spades).

My feeling is that you have an axe to grind beyond your minimally supported blanket statements. You can claim to be anyone you want to be. You can claim that "people that know me" know you are an expert. So far, I have not seen anyone posting here that "knows you" apparently.

I own one. I shoot with guys that own them. I know guys that sell them by the crate and love them because their customers are happy. My guess is that they are backed up for 8-10 weeks for a pretty good reason. They sell a ton of rifles. Probably based on their reputation. This is their reputation with me through my own personal experience.
Not a single problem.
Accurate as all heck.
Excellent fit and finish.
This is where my personal opinion is coming from.

At this point, its a credibility thing with me. I have seen nothing to really support your earlier posts, just a lot of redirection and quite a hangup on measuring things. Guns are for shootin'. Mine does just fine.

Daniel
One very satisfied customer.
Austin, Texas

rob_s
October 17, 2008, 04:57 PM
So, ultimately, you have a pretty big bias yourself. ;)

ProCarryNAustin
October 17, 2008, 04:58 PM
Yep. :D

SwampWolf
October 17, 2008, 05:06 PM
ProCarryNAustin: Well said! Getting on the "net" and referencing credentials that are unsubstantiated (and even if substantiated are wholly unrelated to the topic at hand) compromises one's credibility. The op apparently wants to know why Rock River is so slow in delivering a rifle he either ordered or is considering ordering. He wasn't soliciting a rant from "expert" armorers about how foolish his choice of an AR manufacturer was/is.

I'm a competitor in the Service Rifle matches at Camp Perry. If you really want to know how good or bad an AR15 maker is go there and ask around. Real expert advice can be had there for free and won't include silly and meaningless hyperbole that attempts to demean any given manufacturer for apparent parochial purposes.

hags
October 17, 2008, 05:14 PM
No, it has drifted slightly. You ask what my bonafides were and I gave them to you.

You ask what my sources were for my comments, and I gave you some hard facts that you can test yourself, use the manuals and gauges to see for yourself while I gave you some of where I get my info from. And it isn't the trade mags.

I told you where the RRA products were inferior, and I agree. You can ask the end users. Here in the US it is Colt, other countries use the DPMS and BM guns, but the only people thata were using RRA have stopped because of QC issues. Take it or leave it. I gave you the manuals where you could find the correct measurements and specs, I told you what to check to back up my claims that they build and infreior product. The other manufacturers I listed build them as close as they can to MILSPEC and use better components. And there are no companies out there that make MILSPEC AR's for the civilian community. Period. They can't because of the 86 ban. MILSPEC requires select fire. But some come mighty close. Colt is by far the closest.

You ask, I responded. I bet you sell them so you have an emotional and financial stake in this. If they made a product that I thought was of the quality for the dollar, I would still carry them. We did carry them until the started cutting corners. YMMV, but that is just my .02

I didn't ask you anything, you have me confused with someone else. Again, I'm not really interested in measurements or specifications. Function, reliability and accuracy, in about that order.

I think when I or anyone else uses the term "mil-spec" it's a given we're not talking about full auto per se.

Ha, ha. No, I don't sell RRA. Sure, if someone is deadset on one and after I've tried to point them in the right direction if they still want one I'll order them one. Certainly no emotional "stake" in this discussion concerning RRA.
I wouldn't not have stated that I have been to their factory and that they are at best assemblers.
I'm not the one who appears to be emotional at all. I don't know why you're addressing me directly or appear to be doing so.
I think you should check your ego at the door, you're barking up the wrong tree here. I think we're mostly on the same page.

rc109a
October 17, 2008, 06:09 PM
There are better products then RRA and worse. If the wait is worth it, then do it. If you must have it now, then shop around. No matter what you decide I am sure you will be happy with your purchase. The RRA I bought is a sound product. I waited 8 weeks. Mine is used for hunting. My work rifle is something different, but that is another topic. In this case you need to decide if the wait is worth it. I wish you the best on your decision.

hags
October 17, 2008, 06:29 PM
I'm a competitor in the Service Rifle matches at Camp Perry. If you really want to know how good or bad an AR15 maker is go there and ask around. Real expert advice can be had there for free and won't include silly and meaningless hyperbole that attempts to demean any given manufacturer for apparent parochial purposes.

Very good, a meaningful post.
Also, very true.
I'm sure White Oak Armament will come up.
Good stuff, and yes, I have a financial stake in that.

helz_mcfugly
October 17, 2008, 10:10 PM
i second that "get a bushmaster" I ordered a 24 inch varment upper just two weeks ago and they had it to me in 4 days.

stonyman65
October 17, 2008, 10:31 PM
Well you also have to remember, a lot of LE agency's and Military use RRA rifles. The DEA are contracted with RRA for their standard model carbine.

I know it sucks for the civie like you and me, but RRA focus more on their Government contracts than joe schmo who wants a new bang-bang for target shooting.

hags
October 18, 2008, 12:37 AM
I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.

The OP wanted a NM upper. I would recommend White Oak Armament.

RP88
October 18, 2008, 01:12 AM
I guess RRA sold out and is back-ordered.

My del-ton rifle kit came in about two days. ordered it Monday morning, got it Tuesday afternoon. Guess it all depends on what you're trying to get.

LtBlue425
October 29, 2008, 10:59 AM
What about how Glocks in use by Federal Agencies in 40 cal tend to blow up with alarming frequency? Go to any armsroom at any FLETC and ask the armorers to see the buckets of glocks that have gone up.

Gotta throw the flag on this!! :scrutiny: Make that several flags. :scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny:


I've been watching various AR boards for several years and I've noticed "the best AR" changes with what's en vogue at the moment. Two years ago Rock River was the AR and if didn't have one you were... A) an idiot for not owning something better and cheaper than Colt or B) taking your life in your hands with anything else AKA "junk".

This year it seems the pendulum has swung to LMT or Noveske or Spikes Tactical as the best AR and RR has fallen from grace. What brand is next slated to be "the best AR"? :confused: I suppose it won't be Colt or DPMS or Olympic.

I've continuously owned Colts since 1977 so in some circles that automatically makes me a "Cool-Aid drinker". :cool: Bought an Olympic Plinker Plus two years ago, it operates more reliably than my Galil with Wolf ammo and the Galil is based on the most reliable weapon of all time..the AK-47. Plus it shoots five shot 1/2" groups with my long-time match load using a $20 Tasco 4x and $5 scope mount (not to mention crappy factory trigger). And I didn't have to spend $XXXX for a Les Bauer to get sub 1" groups. Cripes, by some accounts you'd think Olympic was all potmetal. Funny how they have been able to stay in business so long....what is it now..25 years or so?
Our previous armor sgt (Oly and Stag fan) and the SWAT teams picked DPMS for their "assualt rifles" (to compliment the P90's) and UPR's. They could have bought any brand of AR because the money was there and with govt + qnty buying the price differences between brand names are miniscule. So based on their high marks for DPMS the past 6 or so years I bought a DPMS this summer. Now that appears to be junk also!! Sheesh, I just can't win. :banghead: Guess I better cut up my junk before it blows up and maims or kills me.

JonB
October 30, 2008, 10:46 PM
Well, let me ask you this..... Did you read the report that HK handguards reach 750 degrees F in only 90 rounds on semi-auto? Probably not because HK doesn't want you to. You think they dunk them in water to show how tough they are? You can do that with a normal AR. Did you read how the 416 self destructs in the lab after about 7k rounds? Probably not. What about that recent, very extensive testing has shown all of the current types of piston uppers are showing the same type of problems that they did 30 years ago when they tried this crap? Did you know CAG were such huge fans of the guns because they got new uppers every 3-5k rounds and thats why they wanted to keep them? Why not? Because it doesn't sell magazines or products.

Did you read how SIG has two different production lines? One is for civilians and the other is for high use LEO/MIL customers, their being made to a much higher standard?

What about how Glocks in use by Federal Agencies in 40 cal tend to blow up with alarming frequency? Go to any armsroom at any FLETC and ask the armorers to see the buckets of glocks that have gone up.

Can we get a link or a scanned version of all these 'reports?' Or are they too top secret?

Too much 'internet wisdom' and hearsay and 'I know a guy' or 'my friend..' and 'people who know me' type of references in this thread for any of it to be believable and of any use.

Oh and c'mon guys, I read this whole post and not one of you posted THE CHART! This is the first AR thread that doesn't have THE CHART in it.

taliv
October 30, 2008, 11:11 PM
i suspect people have Chart Fatigue at the moment. at this late date, most everyone knows about it and has either comprehended and begun making informed decisions or have fabricated sufficient excuses to justify whatever feelings they had.

rob_s
October 31, 2008, 07:24 AM
I've been watching various AR boards for several years and I've noticed "the best AR" changes with what's en vogue at the moment. Two years ago Rock River was the AR and if didn't have one you were... A) an idiot for not owning something better and cheaper than Colt or B) taking your life in your hands with anything else AKA "junk".

This year it seems the pendulum has swung to LMT or Noveske or Spikes Tactical as the best AR and RR has fallen from grace. What brand is next slated to be "the best AR"? I suppose it won't be Colt or DPMS or Olympic.

I think you're not understanding the way the market works.

During the ban there were only a handful of options available. Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Olympic, and (towards the end) Rock River. Colt suffered some QC issues during the ban, which allowed Armalite and Bushmaster (and later RRA) to be seen as equals offered at a lower price. Colt was also having production issues which led to scarcity which also drove the price up. So, during the ban you heard things like "ABC" for "Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt", which was often later amended to "ABC and R" to add RRA to the mix.

Near the end of the ban, Colt started getting back on track, and they started offering products in their civilian and LE lines that were every bit as high quality as what they sell the government but with semi-auto FCG parts. When the ban ended, this led to the 6920 being the holy grail of ARs, and the Colt products were now offering something for that extra cost in terms of materials, QC, and assembly that "ABR" weren't.

With the ban gone, the market opened wide for smaller companies to start offering a wide range of products, and the first of these was really LMT with their uppers only. Their uppers had all the right materials and QC, and were just missing some very small assembly issues that would never affect most owners. Then along came Sabre, Noveske, and more recently S&W and Charles Daly that were offering products that were either better than the Colt and were priced accordingly, or were better than "ABR" and priced the same or less.

So, at one time the "ABR" choices made sense. Yes, they weren't to the level of a current-production Colt, but then neither were the Colts at the time, and they cost less anyway making them viable economic choices. Fast forward to today where you can get a better Smith and Wesson for the price of a Bushmaster, a better Stag for the price of an RRA, or a better Charles Daly for the price of an Armalite, and these older established brands that are resting on their laurels no longer make any economic sense as purchases. For every one of the "ABR", I can now get an equal product for less money, or a better product for the same price. If you can buy a Lexus for the price of a Toyota, why would you buy the Toyota?

Notice that I left off brands like Olympic, DPMS, Hesse, etc. These brands have always served a function, which was (and is) to offer a low cost alternative with materials, quality control, and assembly standards to match. If someone is on an extremely limited budget, is looking for a low-cost plinker that looks like the current issue military firearm, and wants a platform on which to bolt crapco accessories, then these brands serve that niche. This is why Pat Rogers refers to these manufacturers as "hobby guns". They are there to fill the niche of the hobby shooter market. Kind of like a V6 Mustang or Camaro, they may look like the real thing, and if all the owner wants is the style of the real thing they may suffice, but they are not the same thing. Personally, I think the best sub-$800 AR is an AK, but YMMV.

Lucky Strike
October 31, 2008, 04:26 PM
Just bought my first AR....a RRA A4 midlength with chrome lined lightweight profile barrel and Magpul CTR stock. Went with RRA cause i wanted a midlength and my limit was $900. Haven't actually gotten it yet (supposed to ship on Monday from ar15sales) but i made sure to get it from a place that actually had them in stock....the first model i wanted the dude said it was a 12 week waiting period.

If Stag made a midlength i likely would have went with them.

flyboy1788
October 31, 2008, 06:21 PM
RRA stopped production of 1911 pistols to focus on rifle production because the demand has become so high. The website verified thishttp://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=209

PvtPyle
November 2, 2008, 12:12 AM
If you are an LEO or military, you could probably get the reports fairly easy from DHS or FLETC. Other wise probably not so much. But they are there wether people like the fact that they are or not. But negative reviews dont sell advertising space. Ask SWAT. Benelli pulled all their adds after an honest review of a bad product.

I am happy to see people so passionate about the products they love. If your feelings got hurt or your toes stepped on, sorry. It isn't about what is in vouge for me. It is about what the guys that pump 10,000rds thru a gun during a test for their duty rifle report. It isn't about adds or positive reviews from teh gun whores. Sorry, Dave, Gary and the rest that get product for free when they write a good review, but if I had the opportunity to do my own civilian testing the way the agencies do, I would and post it for the world to see.

And that is something we are working on. We are trying to find the support for the ammo, we will buy the weapons. We will run it to the same specs as some of the agency tests that have been done and preform the same documentation. But until that comes thru, public opinion is largely dictated by good reviews and magazine adds.

My opinion is mine, take it or leave it. The friend of a friend thing is what it is. I will never give up my sources, but they are MY friends, not a friend of whatever. I will however be putting out my findings on the SCAR when DHS is done testing it. I am a certifed SCAR armorer and DHS does not have one so I have been ask to help in the test. As a civilian I am not bound by the NDA's. So that you can count on it being first hand.

Take it all for what you paid for it. The OP got the answer he needed. Have a good one.

ProCarryNAustin
November 2, 2008, 10:15 AM
PvtPyle,

Some of the best information I've gotten off the net have been from those with first hand personal experience and those with sources that could be verified.

I have seen no posts of yours describing your personal experience with owning an RRA. In all fairness, I may have missed one.

The sources you quote are unreachable by most of us. The one person that did, could not verify the existence of the documents you are quoting.

It would be nice if you could provide some supporting argument for an opinion that contradicts my personal experience and that of half a dozen of my friends.

Daniel
Austin, Texas

SwampWolf
November 2, 2008, 01:12 PM
Don't hold your breath, Daniel.

Group9
November 3, 2008, 08:44 AM
I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.

I can.
DEA
FBI
ATF
(Together, the own more AR's than any law enforcement agency in the world).

And, if DEA is canceling their contracts with Rock River, that is news to the DEA.

The fact that those three agencies use Rock River may not mean everything, but it certainly means something. These are agencies that shoot .223 rounds they pay $0.75 for each, and have budgets most similar sized state or local agencies would drool over.

They are also often out in front of firearms trends, for what that is worth. In other words, they go there own way, for their own reasons, rather than following the crowd. DEA, for instance, was one of the first law enforcement agencies to carry Glocks. The FBI for instance, really caused the .40 to be invented.

RockyMtnTactical
November 3, 2008, 04:06 PM
There is a tremendous run on firearms right now... people are scared of Obama. And with good cause...

As for LE using RR's. I know the FBI seems to be happy with them. At least that is what the local FBI firearms instructor tells me.

RRA is not my first choice, but they wouldn't be my last one either...

hags
November 3, 2008, 04:58 PM
I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.

I can.
DEA
FBI
ATF
(Together, the own more AR's than any law enforcement agency in the world).

And, if DEA is canceling their contracts with Rock River, that is news to the DEA.

The fact that those three agencies use Rock River may not mean everything, but it certainly means something. These are agencies that shoot .223 rounds they pay $0.75 for each, and have budgets most similar sized state or local agencies would drool over.

They are also often out in front of firearms trends, for what that is worth. In other words, they go there own way, for their own reasons, rather than following the crowd. DEA, for instance, was one of the first law enforcement agencies to carry Glocks. The FBI for instance, really caused the .40 to be invented.

As far as high quality, professional, duty use ARs are concerned RRA is at the bottom of the my list.

Government "contracts" are nice marketing tools. Look at Armalite, they entered their SASS into testing but didn't get the contract. You wouldn't know it from their advertising.

Group9
November 7, 2008, 06:27 PM
Quote:
I cannot name you one LE or military agency that uses RRA. I can name you dozens (of LE) that use Bushmaster, LMT or Stag/CMT.
I thought in fact that the DEA is not renewing their contract.


I can.
DEA
FBI
ATF
(Together, the own more AR's than any law enforcement agency in the world).

And, if DEA is canceling their contracts with Rock River, that is news to the DEA.

The fact that those three agencies use Rock River may not mean everything, but it certainly means something. These are agencies that shoot .223 rounds they pay $0.75 for each, and have budgets most similar sized state or local agencies would drool over.

They are also often out in front of firearms trends, for what that is worth. In other words, they go there own way, for their own reasons, rather than following the crowd. DEA, for instance, was one of the first law enforcement agencies to carry Glocks. The FBI for instance, really caused the .40 to be invented.

As far as high quality, professional, duty use ARs are concerned RRA is at the bottom of the my list.

Government "contracts" are nice marketing tools. Look at Armalite, they entered their SASS into testing but didn't get the contract. You wouldn't know it from their advertising.

So, going back to your original statemen, are you saying the FBI, DEA, and ATF are not law enforcement agencies, or what? Or,that they are, but you just don't think Rock River rifles are any good?

There is a difference in fact and opinion. It may be your opinion that Rock River rifles are no good, but it is a fact that lots of law enforcement agencies, including three of the four biggest federal law enforcement agencies, are using Rock River rifles.

rob_s
November 8, 2008, 09:55 AM
Participate in an LE procurement sometime and see if you still think it's the be-all end-all of weapon selection criteria.

Slater
November 8, 2008, 10:32 AM
Looks like someone in the .gov still wants them:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=7f065fcba9b97cee3adbc621b80c9ce0&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=

David904
November 8, 2008, 12:09 PM
I'm here to throw my support in with Pvt Pyle.

I owned a Rock River Arms carbine. It shot just fine and had nice fit and finish. Once I learned a bit more about the system, though, I mad some unsettling discoveries. Nothing was staked properly. The buffer tube was not milspec. I had to purchase a new one to mount a stock I had ordered.

There were a few other things that I discovered that made me decide to not keep the rifle. Like I said, it shot just fine. It ate everything I fed it, and never gave me any trouble. However, there were things about it that suggested shoddy workmanship. I sold it to a guy as a plinker (I was up front with everything about the rifle) and spent the money on an LMT CQB MRP.

I spoke with a guy who is former special operations and an armorer. He also trains people under a very high profile company and he said that he would NEVER take an RRA carbine into a fight.

He said that the really liked the Bushmaster. He sort of shook his head when he saw my LMT (thought I was crazy for spending so much money - I got a great deal but that's a complete aside), but he checked it all over and pronounced it a "damn fine weapon."

So, I would stay clear of the RRA if I was going to have something as my "go to" or SHTF gun. For plinking, there are other less expensive companies. Bushmaster got the thumbs up from an unimpeachable source.

mtlucas0311
November 8, 2008, 01:15 PM
After reading most of the three pages, it seems like the topic has wandered a bit; although some valid points seem to have been made. I'm not sure what the ATF, FBI, DEA or whoever have to do with a NM gun, but I just got my White Oak Precision CMP upper in 6 weeks (I was told up front that the wait for a NM upper was 6 to 8 weeks). I did a ton of research before I decided who to order it from, and feel I made the right choice. John himself talked to me when I called to order, answered all my dumb questions that I had already looked up, and was very nice to speak with. If the guys on the line at Perry are using White Oak, I feel that says a lot. Not to mention that the price was very reasonable, I paid under a grand for my upper (I didn't get the stainless barrel, otherwise it would have been 7 and change); put that on top of a $300 lower and your shooting for a lot less than you will get a good bulls eye gun for. If I went through what you have with the RRA upper, I'd can em' and make a call to Illinois.

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