[Matt-J2]

Ok, so I guess this is nothing new, but I need a place to vent a wee bit.

In recent months, as I've been pay8ing more attention to local hunters and shooters whilst in stores catering to such, I've noticed more and more signs of Magnumitis. Folks complaining about the cost of sabot shotgun slugs, while explaining to all and sundry that they can't get a shot at less than 100yds. Folks who need those fancy new slugs from Remington for $20-whatever a box, because, you know, you really need that extra range in the woods of WI. Fella checking out rifles, needs a .300wsm for whitetails, as nothing else has enough killing power. Can't buy a .243 for your kids either, they'll just need a larger rifle in a year or so, since .243 can't take down deer reliably.

The last straw was today. Walking to class, couple guys in the hall talking about a bow one of them found. Was only a 27" draw length. OK, that's an issue, fella was clearly in need of a greater draw length. He gets to weight, and set to max, it's only 50#. One of the other guys was incredulous and wondered what you could possibly kill with only a 50# draw. Not even joking, he was dead serious.



I know some of this is hunter skill and all that, but the idea that it takes a massive amount of power for any given game animal seems to be an epidemic. We should call the CDC. Better yet, I want to just poke all these people with a stone tipped spear and remind them that said spears were once used to kill mammoths. Arg.

[ArmedBear]

I wouldn't say that spears are the most humane way to kill elephant-size game, but apparently they work.

http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20031215/013377.html

[Shawnee]

Agreed Matt. And what's worse - the dimwits who fall for that stuff infect others with it for decades.
First three deer I took with arrows were with a 43# Bear recurve and none of them made it farther than about 50yds.
Have shot enough deer with the 243 to fill Yankee Stadium.


:cool:

[koja48]

Fell prey to "magnumitis" years ago & successfully dispatched a lot of deer & elk with same . . . the subjects would have been harvested just as successfully with an '06, which I shelved in deference to the belted magnum. I use a .25-06 now with great success, extreme accuracy, and sans retina-detaching recoil. At 60, I prefer calibers that kill cleanly at one end & are reasonably mellow at the other. There is a phase in a man's life when testosterone rules . . . I'm eternally grateful that I've advanced beyond both that and the "thinking-with-the-little-head" era . . . I shoot a custom 60# longbow now (hey, 1 pound for each year on earth . . . what a deal!) when bowhunting . . . light to carry, easy to tune, sweet in the hand, and kills deer & elk dead, dead, dead with a well-placed arrow (which is MUCH easier to "well-place" I might add.).

[Art Eatman]

Summer of 1948, at age 14, I returned from Boy Sprout Camp as one each Serious Indian. I made bows and arrows, wore breech cloths, various "Indian" accoutrements and drove my mother stark raving bonkers. "What's that kid gonna haul home next?" (A five-foot rattlesnake skin didn't help matters.)

Insanity is hereditary: You get it from your kids.

My best bow, after numerous learning experiences, was about a 40-pound simple bow. I made arrow heads from barrel hoop, just like Ernest Thompson Seton said to. ("Two Little Savages" and "Yan In The Woods").

But I managed a couple of jackrabbits, the rattlesnake, and a fox which got pinned to a tree when I hit it. The coup de main for the summer was a little spike buck (let us not talk about seasons and licenses) which I shot through the head. Completely through the head. From up in an oak tree near a spring, from maybe 25 or 30 feet.

In later years I found recurves and compounds, but they're nowhere nearly as much fun...

:), Art

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Yeah, it's funny when people think that "energy" kills. Archery proves that it's 100% wound channel, and 0% "energy" that kills. 70 ft lbs of energy from an arrow through the vitals will kill an animal just as dead as a .399 superdupermagnum with 7,500 ft.-lbs.

[koja48]

Bet you were a sight to behold, Art. Good thing Playgirl Magazine wasn't around back then (and I thought I looked rather stunning in the same & mocs myself, way back when . . . ).

[ArmedBear]

.45-70 will drop some BIG game. Relies on bullet size and weight, not velocity and energy, and works fine.

Someone used to looking at energy numbers would think it isn't good enough for deer at any decent range, but they were once used to drop bison at 400 yards, by market hunters who couldn't afford to waste ammo.

[Sunray]

"...Magnumitis..." It's caused by the gun rag writers trying to sell their advertiser's products.
"...only a 27" draw length..." That's enough for me. Wouldn't be for a buddy of mine who needs 32", as I recall. Arms like an orangutan. 45 pounds draw weight is the legal minimum for deer, up here. 55 pounds for moose.

[TCB in TN]

Not all men are created equally, recoil bothers some folks, just doesn't both others. I was taught that you should hunt with the largest cal that you can comfortably, and accurately shoot. Now I have backed off of that a little over the years, after a bout with the .300 and .338 (could shoot both accurately off hand, but they were not fun, I didn't dread shooting them, but I didn't enjoy them either), I settled back on the 30-06 class of guns (.270, .308, 30-06). I am not shooting much these days but can still walk out and hit what I aim at pretty consistently (The little red fox eating my chickens this summer, found out that 200 yards was not a safe distance from my .308 BLR).

I have shot and hunted with the .243 and have NO problem with myself or anyone else using it to hunt deer with. It is undoubtedly "enough" gun to drop bambi effectively. I firmly believe that if people spent more money on practice ammo, and less on buyin the next whiz bang thing that fewer people would feel the need for huntin artilary.

[DRYHUMOR]

The largest caliber I've got is 7mm mag, I haven't shot it in years.

Mostly it's .308 or .257

[ojibweindian]

When I got my 7mag, I was looking for a 30-06. The place I bought it had no 30-06 in the Vanguard line, so...

Anyways, since I handload, I developed a load with 280 power levels. Easy on my shoulder, easy on the barrel, and smacks down a deer with no problems.

My other game-getter is a 30-30, and my next rifle is either going to be a .243 or 7mm-08. That'll depend on what I run across first when the money's in the pocket.

[qajaq59]

I kind of enjoy watching people try to zero in magnums at the range. Some of those flinches are really impressive to see. :evil:

[John Peddie]

That's what I've used for the last 3 deer-out of an iron sighted Savage 99 (1920's vintage). All were one shot kills, and none moved more than 50 feet from the point of impact.

It's no brush cutter, but where you have 50-75 yds. of sightline, it works just fine. If you don't have a clear sightline, best not to shoot.

[janobles14]

yes but what about the annual T-Rex hunts? i have NEVER seen a dinosaur killed with a "standard" caliber! sure they work for everything up do elephants but NOT on thunder lizards. :)

[waffentomas]

It took me a few MONTHS to find an affordable .308 in my area for elk hunting. Plenty of big boomers there for the taking. I never could understand why it was so hard to find one. All the gun store owners said the same thing..."everybody wants a magnum now'a days."

I bet I practice a lot more, too.

Tom

[oregonhunter]

Because whitetail hunters are used to heated hunting lodges, blinds with heat, and 3 restaurant style meals a day during the hunt.

[freakshow10mm]

I hear ya Matt. I see it here in the UP too. Lots of 30-30s around though.

Hey, I was born and raised in Oshkosh. Small world.

[alsaqr]

It has become very popular to shoot at deer at ranges of 200 yards or more with muzzleloaders and shotguns. Every year i find dead and/or wounded
deer that "hunters" did not follow up on.

Sometimes i go to WV to deer hunt. Like to take my deer to the butcher in Elkins and look at the dozens of deer waiting outside to be processed. It is amazing what folks do to deer. It is quite normal to see a deer that has been shot through both hams and both shoulders, usually by an out of state hunter. Some of those deer look like they have been shot by 75mm pack howitzers.

One butcher in this area of OK will not take a deer that has been badly shot up.

[qajaq59]

I can't even imagine taking a shot at a deer 200 yards away with a shotgun.

[moooose102]

well, draw length is just a matter of the particular persons size. has nothing to do with power or killing ability. if a 6'5 guy tries to shoot a 26" draw length, well, he is just going to be miserable, and not able to shoot well. on the other side, if a 5'2 guy tries to shoot a 32" draw length bow, he wont be able to get to the let off on the cams. i am absoloutly no bow and arrow expert, but i do know that much.

as for poundage, that is a different storry. that directly relates to speed, just like the magnum rifles. while high power is not a necessity for killing game, you do have to have a certain amount. when you go overboard, you do increase the killing power, but it certainly is not expotential.

i use a 300 win mag, or a 45/70 for deer. but there is a reason for it. i am disabled. i need to drop the deer where i shoot it. if i have to chase it a half of a mile, while i can do that (it will take a while), there is no way i could ever drag it back to the truck.

i limit my shots to where i can get to it with the truck, and sincerely hope for the best. last year was the first year that i hunted since my injury / surgery (which was not sucsessful). that is when i learned that i needed to stay close to the truck, and drop it where i can drive to it.

severly limits my chances, and i did not shoot a deer last year. i would rather it go free that shoot it for the buzzards!

[unreal45]

Actually a longer draw length will provide higher arrow speed than a shorter draw length at the same respective poundage.

[timothy75]

I see nothing wrong with magnumitus. If it brings people joy to master a powerfull firearm and further our sport so be it. Often times the most powerfull guns are the ones that peek outsiders intrest in our sport to begin with.

[Matt-J2]

For me, the joy of shooting big magnums isn't magnumitis. I would define Magnumitis(as if it were a real term) as the attitude and genuine belief that one needs such a powerful cartridge to hunt normal game.

If you want to go and shoot whitetails with a .300wsm(f.ex.), then by all means go and do so.
Just don't try and claim that the job can't be done with anything less.

[freakshow10mm]

If it brings people joy to master a powerfull firearm
I've never seen anyone truly master a large bore or magnum rifle. I've seen many pound away at a target at a known distance and talk miles of crap about themselves and their skills. Then they miss a deer at 71y broadside and blame something else, even though they flinched like a pansy on the shot.

[bfhcards]

I use a 30-06 its the only center fire rifle I own. I figured I would get the most versatile caliber I could since it may be the only one I own for a while and may get a chance to go out west.

[alsaqr]

Have several magnum rifles. One weighs just over 6.5 pounds and has a lightened Thai Mauser action. It is chambered for the .375 Improved Alaskan. Those magnum rifles sit in the safe because they are not needed to kill deer or hogs. They also use huge quantities of powder and it is expensive to re-load for them. One of these years i will go moose hunting and that .375Improved Alaskan is coming with me.


Last deer season i took a shot at a big doe with my Remington model 700 at a lasered distance of just over 400 yards. She fell DRT. That was the first shot over 300 yards that i have taken in decades. Everything was just right: Good rest, no wind, good light and she was standing broadside.

[Wildfire]

Hey There;
Sunray has it. While we do not always agree, Here we do. I am a nut that studies this kind of crap. You guys are right on. The New Breed of GUN and Hunting magazines are mostly to blame here. I have even come to the point that I can not stand to watch a deer or any kind of Hunting video. If one can not do it the way they do in the Video "we are stupid " and will never be up to par. Fact is most of us can not afford to hunt where those guys hunt. And we do not have companies paying the bill for us.

Gun writers seem to push the new magnums a lot. And use those cute little numbers hoping that the average Joe will not know any better and go out and buy one of these "Can't do it any other way " guns.
Anyone that is over 40 something knows that the 30-30 win. has killed a lot of deer. The .243 also. And many others. But modern day gun writers that need to keep their jobs tend to push the New Magnums hard.
A framing hammer handles the nails just fine. But you would need a much bigger hammer for pounding in Rail road spikes. Most of us are in need of framing hammers. The normal caliber rifles we have had for years all do the job and do it very well. The ammo cost is still somewhat reasonable. The cost of the new Magnums and their ammo is a little on the steap side. And 95% of the time not required to get the job done.
I have nothing against any Magnum. They are here for a reason. But , I too, have seen many hunters use a .300 win mag sitting in a stand watching a bait pile at 40 yards to kills some small UP (MI) deer.
I do some custom tuning and reloading. The rifles in question here are .300 Win. mags. 2 of these guys have used them for years and flat out love the power and the accuracy of the two guns that I am refering to. Last year one of them on a western hunt killed his deer at 380 yards with 1 shot drop and 100 yards 1 shot drop. He has always been amazed at the pwoer of that .300 win. But this year I finally told him the deal. I have always loaded the 165 grain Hornady A-Max for him. at 2850 FPS. He was shocked to learn of this but did not want to change a thing. Magnum ??? Not.. He claims he has never had a problem with those loads and has killed every deer he ever pulled the trigger on. The other guy was My youngest brother and the exact same thing was done with his rifle and he also loved it. In Fact they were reaally useing a warm .308 win. from a .300 win mag round.

[Shawnee]

High-5 to Ya, Wildfire !

:D

[Wildfire]

Hey:
Of all people here I knew you would agree. we have for the most part always been on the same page.

[NCsmitty]

Great story Wildfire, you had them thinking they were carrying the Hammers Of Thor and you actually gave them what they could handle. Too much, LOL.

NCsmitty

[ZeroJunk]

I don't know that it is fair to judge bows and rifles the same way. The difference in drop between the magnums like a 300 Win and a 30/06 are insignificant in the ranges most of us can shoot and if the magnum will kill much quicker you made a bad shot.
However, on game like Elk that are not going to jump an arrow 50 and 60 yard shots are within the capability of many. They don't always give you time to use a range finder etc. particularly when he comes blasting in to a cow call. So, a faster arrow speed is a good thing.

[Wildfire]

Hey again.
here is the funny part . I have been doing this for them for over 10 years.
Never told them any different till this year. Even their hunting buddies were very impressed with their guns.
Another one is a .243 Rem 700. It was for the manager of a Fair sized company in GR. Mi. He has a plaque on the wall of his office and has "Dimes"
with holes in them attached to that plaque. All at 100 yards. And from the loads and rifle that I worked on for him. I asked him if he would consider selling or trading me that gun. He just smiles. His son killed his first buck with that rifle at 80 yards with one shot to the head and it was a very nice 10 point. his son was 12. That gun will be in the family forever...

[f4t9r]

I have always heard bigger is better.

Have shot enough deer with the 243 to fill Yankee Stadium

That is alot of deer. Are you filling the seats or the whole stadium top to bottom.

[kmrcstintn]

I'm a bit magnumized...

.357 magnum; .44 magnum; .300 WSM; .25-06 (speedy like a magnum without being called a magnum)

I'm also down to earth...

.38 spl; .38 spl +p; .44 spl; .45 long colt; a meager PSE Nova Rimfire setup w/ 29" draw, 60# draw, and shooting a slow & impotent 275 fps (the bow was a 2006 holdover that I got for $180 as a combo with prong rest, 3 dot day-glow sight, 6 arrow quiver, peep sight, kisser button, release loop, and tuning & adjustments)

[Water-Man]

My grandfather and his friends started taking me hunting with them when I was seven years old. We hunted rabbits, deer and black bear and just about everyone used a .30-30, .35 Remington and 16ga. shotguns. Everyone wore wool. There was no camo. Ammo was sold in the local hardware store. Every animal that was shot was eaten. Those gentlemen back in those days sure knew how to hunt, track and shoot. Their food supply depended on it.

[moooose102]

Anyone that is over 40 something knows that the 30-30 win. has killed a lot of deer.
this is VERY TRUE! but, my wife shot a nice 8 point @ 70 yards years ago. good (not great) shot placement, through a lung and heart. we spent 5 hours tracking that deer, with a distance over a mile and a half. so while the 30-30 does get the job done, it isnt always the best. i personally killed 5 deer with that rifle, and most of them went less than 50 yards, i think the most was less than 100. when my wife wanted to hunt, i borrowed a gun from my brother, and let her use my 30-30. she liked it so much she bought me the 300 win mag i had been looking at for our anniversary. anyway. the 300 win mag makes very short work of whitetails. at least 80% of them drop right where i shot them. not 1 inch of trailing. the most that a deer has ever moved since i started hunting with the win mag was one i shot at about 100 yards, it ran about 100 yards after i shot it. i couldnt believe it. when i walked up to the deer, something seemed strange there was a 2" entrance hole in the deer, and no exit hole. i walked back to where i had shot the deer and follwed the aproximate trajectory. what i found was a 3" birch tree stump with a 30 caliber hole in the front of it and the back 1/2 of it blown away. while this was completely unintentional, try that with a 30-30, and if you are lucky enough to hit the deer at all, you will either chase it for miles, or never retreive the deer. so magnums do have their place. it is just a matter of the hunter being able to use it propperly. i would rather kill it dead, than have it suffer for a period of time until it looses enough blood that it can lo longer move. now, all of that being said, a 30-06 would PROBABLY do just as well as my 300 win mag 90% of the time. and for most of my target shooting, i download to 30-06 levels. but when i hunt, i want all the power i can HANDLE. the 300 win mag (and my 45/70) is enough for me. i really would not want anything larger, unless i was going to africa. then i would want a 460 weatherby. not that it would be ANY FUN to shoot. but, i want to stop anything that can eat me right in its tracks!

[32winspl]

My first deer hunt, I used an Uncle's old Win ('92?) in 25-20. It took 5 rapid and well-placed shots to stop the little 4 point, and a 6th to kill it. Everybody (until my lil bro) who ever used it on their first hunt was successful; and that's about a dozen young hunters. There were never any one-shot-stops, and that rifle has since been retired.
Then, due to increasingly poor eyesight, my Dad bought a BLR and a scope, and I began using his old 94 in 32 Winchester Special. I killed a lot of deer with that rifle. Also, having grown up with the Daisy model 94 "Spittin' Immage" bb gun, it came to my shoulder instantly, and on target. With the 32, only one deer required a 2nd shot during it's 30 yard run.
Then, about 2000, I decided I "need" a scope for the early morning, deep dark woods, and my own rifle. I bought the then brand new (and oh so sexy) Marlin 1895M in 450Marlin, 18.5" bbl and 14 ports in the muzzle. Couple years later, I bought the 1895 MR (22" bbl, no ports) also in 450 Marlin. Both drop deer like an anvil, but the M was sooo f r e a k i n' l o u d in the woods.
This year? I think I'll go retro and bring out the ol' 32 Spec. It shoots so soft and being sans scope, carries like a dream.

As for Magnumitis, I've never owned one. But I used to regularly study reloading manuals, comparing specs., bullets, velocities, and energies. Maybe I'd start with the .243 and compare it with the 25-06. Hmmm, 25-06 looks pretty good. How's it compare to the .270? Then before you know it, I've worked my way up to the .378 Weatherby Magnum... realize how ridiculous I'm being (I've never shot anything larger than a Whitetail), and start all over again. I couldn't begin to estimate the number of hours I've sucessfully and happily killed in this manner!

[ColeK]

A .30-30 was my first centerfire rifle. I own a couple a dozen rifles in various calibers including 1 magnum (.270 Weatherby) and I have owned many more including 2 magnums (a .300 Win Mag and a .300 WSM).

I’ve killed about 150+ deer in the last 45+ years and about 70% were killed with a .30-30, .30-06, .270 Win, and .308 Win. About 95% were killed within 350 yards and over half were killed with 100 yards.

I also use to shot targets out to 600 meters with a M1 Garand and a M1A. So I do know a little about long range shooting.

IMO must cartridges kill equally well out to about 300 yards. Unfortunately most shooters aren’t equal. Some shooters have no business shooting past 100 yards and very few shooters have any business shooting past 300 yards.
___________________
The Ol’ Man said, “Son, when you get close enough that you think you can make the shot, get closer.”

[saskboy]

I have a .308 and a 300wsm for deer, in my opinion the 308 is overkill even, but shooting my 300 always puts a smile on my face for some reason and I only do neck shots with it. I dont even think of recoil when hunting and only concentrate on trigger pull. If magnum recoil is bothering you, your not shooting enough and your scared of your gun.

[Dravur]

Well, I know for a fact that the .30-06 has killed numerous deer, numerous elk and a Moose that wandered into my sight when I had a tag for it. It then had the audacity to die in a swamp, but that's another story.

I have always wondered why anyone needs a belted magnum in the 40 megawatt range, when as far as I can tell, there isnt anything in North America that can't be whacked by a .30-06.

My ole .30-06 works great, has sentimental value and has killed enough meat to fill a dozen freezers.

[35 Whelen]

Yes, yes...Magnumitis is rampant...
I have a good hunting buddy who hunted with a 30-06. Bless his heart, he was forever wounding deer; hitting them in the rear, gut shooting them, etc. Well, he gets an opportunity to go on an elk hunt in Wyoming. Not being a handloader, he asks me what brand and weight bullet to buy. Without hesitation, I tell to buy some Federal Premuims w/ 180 gr. Nosler Partitions. He does so, and I accompany him to the range. Poor guy is having fits getting his rifle sighted in and asks me to have a look at it. I check for loose screws, etc., but everything's fine. So, I fire a 3 shot group with his ammo and get a nice symmetrical 3 shot triangle spanning no more than 1" @ 100 yds. A light pops on in my head... I sit him down at the bench and hand him his rifle, insinuating that it is loaded. (Can you see what's coming?:D) I tell him to try one more time.
Of course, he pulls the trigger on an empty chamber. With no recoil to hide his horrendous flinch, it looked like he'd almost jerked the entire trigger assembly and floorplate free of the rifle. He turned to me with a look of disgust. Yep, that was a mean thing to do, but we'd found his problem.
So, I loan him my Ruger 280 loaded with 160 gr. Nosler Partitions afterwhich he trots off to Wyoming (with this somewhat lighter recoiling rifle) and drops a 6x6 bull that would be the envy of the most seasoned elk hunter.
After returning home, he purchased from my father a Remington 700 in 243. I loaded hin 100 gr. SP's and he killed deer like there was no tomorrow...all with one shot.
Ditto for another buddy. Scared to death of his .270, so if he did manage to hit a deer, he usually wounded it. He began borrowing my Ruger 77V in 220 Swift and became absolute death with it. I mean, if he got the crosshairs on it, it was dead. He bought the rifle and as far as I know, still uses it.
What shame that so many hunters think they must have a fire-breathing magnum to kill a deer. In '05, my Dad used my 35 Whelen to finish off a large bull elk. I load it with 225 gr. TSX's @ 2660 fps. He hit the bull square in the rectum as it walked directly away from him @ 150 yds. or so. (He'd already hit him with his 338-06) The bull took a few wobbly steps and collapsed. We found the bullet in the outside of the right shoulder!!! Talk about penetration!!! THAT is when I began to realize that magnums really aren't necessary for most hunting.
This year, I bought my first rangefinder to take elk hunting. Since I now can range an animal, it seems to me that having some flat shooting magnum is no longer necessary. I mean, if I know how far the animal is away, what difference does it make if I have to hold over 8" or 18"? So long as the bullet has the power to poke a hole in both lungs, the animal will die. But, that's a subject for another post.;)

35W

[Ankeny]

I am fortunate enough to have shot hundreds of big game animals in my life time. In the last week I have shot a dandy pronghorn, a nice plump cow elk, and a six by six bull elk.

For the majority of my adult life I used a 30-06 on elk and something in the 270 to 30-06 range on antelope and deer. For the past few years I have been using a 7mm Remington magnum exclusively, and from my middle 40's to 50 years old I used a 30-338. Considering where I live, the terrain I hunt, the animals I hunt, etc., a magnum makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't leave home without one.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Real nice stories, wildfire and 35 Whelen - a lot of guys need to hear these stories.

And on the subject of misconceptions - lawdie help me this weekend. I'm taking hunting with me, a guy who is a client of mine (from Mexico), and he actually told me that he didn't need to sight in his new muzzleloader if he put a scope on it because "the guys at Academy Sports will sight it in for you" - of course he's referring to bore sighting. I've got an uphill battle, but I took him to the range and we sighted his ML (actually with irons, which he certainly didn't think needed to be sighted in, but they did - and now they're dead on). This same guy, when I offered him a smokin deal on my nicely-sporterized 1917 US "enfield", looked at me with a puzzled look and said something to the effect of "isn't that too expensive for an old gun like that, when a brand new one is the same price - only $300?" (he was referring to the Mossberg 100ATR he had seen at Academy). :banghead:

[Wildfire]

Hey there;
I like what you are saying.. The fact is That many on here have "Worked" up to a magnum. Here is the problem... many today are starting with the magnum. as we see from 35s story this type of deal will increase, not decrease.. The rest of you that are currently using a mag, Do not missunderstand,, i do not in any way condem that... they are tools that in the right hands work well. in the wrong hands they just make bigger wounds and blunder shots at much further distances then th eguy can really "Handle"
Handle is a funny word. Absorb recoil with out falling a part or make precise shots ?
We have likely all had the shot that just plain went wrong , The caliber was not the blame.. The shot was. If we are honest we all know that.
While all of us are capable of firing any magnum we all can not "handle" the magnum... 3 Shot groups under 1" from one guy and bullets not even on the paper from the next. That is when he has Too much gun.. But by that time we all also know that he will "Flinch" with a .22 rimfire... The problem has been deeply imbeded and likely won't just go away...
That will take time and some serious work...
For those of us that can take deer no matter what we use, I tip my hat. To those that need some help , Well that is why we are here...
35 W . You did the right thing by working with that guy..

[BoilerUP]

My name is BoilerUP, and I am a recoil wuss.

I hated shooting my 30-06 Rem. 742 until I found the joy that is LimbSaver, and now I can shoot it all day like a 22-250. Why does this matter with a deer rifle? Proficiency in the spring and summer means no questions about a shot in November...

My dad owns no fewer than a half dozen 7mm Rem Mags, and for the longest time as a teenager I was the only person that hunted without one; I had "only" a 270 Win. Even then, I never understood the need or desire for a shoulder cannon to kill a whitetail deer <100yd.

Two weeks from today is the open of KY modern gun season, and I plan on having both a 30-06 (loaded down to probably 308 recoil) and a 260 Rem available to me. The deer on our land are large, but certainly not large enough that even a 243 won't capably put them down; the biggest buck taken off our farm dressed out at nearly 225, had 11 points, and was cleanly killed with a heart/lung shot by a 223!

[35 Whelen]

My name is BoilerUP, and I am a recoil wuss.

Finally, a man who admits his shortcomings. Bet he's a good shot.
35W

[john1911]

My rambling, disjointed thoughts on the subject:

What's it matter? Who cares how Ol' Joe spends his money. He wants a magnum, let him get a magnum. It's (currently) a free Country.

Yeah, it's true; some hunters buy magnums to compensate for poor shooting. These are the same guys that can't shoot a .22 accurately. Some people won't spend the time, effort or money to become adequate marksmen.

Gun sales are what keep the industry afloat. If everybody hunted with Grandaddy's old 30-30, we would have no gun industry.

I've seen several deer killed cleanly with .22lr. Does that make .22lr a deer cartridge?

Too many people in the world of firearms and hunting get hung up on the word need. Do you really need XYZ caliber to hunt deer? Do you need camo to hunt deer? Do you need a heated blind to hunt? Do you need a semi-auto rifle? On and on and on.

Face it folks, nobody needs to hunt to survive anymore. It's a hobby just like golf, coin collecting or knitting. People do it because they enjoy it. Just like any other hobby, people are going to spend money on it. Items will be bought that others may not understand.

And yes, I hunt with magnums. 75% of my deer hunting is done with either a .41 mag or .44 mag. 20% is done with the fastest bow I can find and the final 5% is done with an inline muzzleloader with magnum loads of 777 pellets. I'm not the world's greatest shot with any of these, but am more than adequate to harvest deer with them.

[X-Rap]

+1 for John. I do not golf, sail, or collect baseball cards. I hunt, shoot, and fish. Not having those other evil hobbies allows me to do a lot of gun buying and trading and is the reason that I now load over 40 different calibers and between my dad and I have a few guns. They are of all different sizes and shapes and all please me very much. Love to hit the big town and shop,shop,shop.

[Shawnee]

I understand the point(s) "John1911" and "X-rap" make and, fact is, if some knucklehead wants to hunt deer with a .460 Weatherby I couldn't care less.

But quite often that same knucklehead goes around assuring newbies that they need a .460 Weatherby to hunt deer, or that the .460 Weatherby is "one of best" deer calibers, or that they should spend their lives hunting deer with a .460 Weatherby just because there is a 1-in-1-billion chance they may come upon an elephant in the Arizona desert or Colorado Rockies. It's just flat wrong to infect others with that kind of Stupidity.:rolleyes:

Sending a trusting newbie out with a Magno-blaster is a huge disservice to the shooter, to the game, to the sport and to all the rest of us.
Anyone that irresponsible and/or stupid should be barred from hunting.... after they are horsewhipped.

;)

[Matt-J2]

It's the 'need' factor that I have a problem with, yeah.

Look, if you shoot/hunt with big magnums, fine. I can tell pretty quick which sort of person you are. If you've spent the time to become familiar with the rifle/load/big handgun/whatever, if you actually spend time shooting it regularly and are consistent with it, then you aren't sitting around telling everyone within earshot about how much you need it. You're at the range, smiling, putting lead on target.

[TCB in TN]

Sending a trusting newbie out with a Magno-blaster is a huge disservice to the shooter, to the game, to the sport and to all the rest of us.
Anyone that irresponsible and/or stupid should be barred from hunting.... after they are horsewhipped.

I would suggest that there are few "newbies" who without practice and proper form who can shoot even your beloved .243 well. Learning proper form and technique are a must to shoot properly.

[35 Whelen]

I just switched to Direct TV, so now I have the Versus channel which has quite a bit of hunting on it. I rarely ever watch TV, so after watching a few minutes of it here and there, I'm already borderline disgusted.

Some examples:

(In a discussion after a successful deer hunt in deep South Texas): "Jim Bob, it takes a big rifle shooting big bullets to take down these big South Texas bucks!!!...." I nearly spewed my whiskey and Coke on the TV screen after that one. A perfect example of the roots of Magnum-itis.

"Hey! Super nice shot on that buck." (CLEARLY gut shot)

(whispering as they watch a really nice buck in eastern Montana):".....yeah...that's a nice one alright....probably 150 class buck (does anyone else want to upchuck everytime the " ### class" phrase?), but I'm looking for something just a liiiiitle bit bigger...."

Quail hunters having to kick the birds to get them to flush.

An arrow sunk deep in the flank of a bull elk.

I'm afraid television may to more harm to hunting than good.
35W