Buffalo Bore 38 Duplicate?


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chrisf8657
October 18, 2008, 11:39 PM
Does anyone have a powder type/charge to duplicate or come close to Buffalo Bore's 125 grain 38 +P load?

Really like the velocity but $24 for a box of 20 is too much.

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Galil5.56
October 19, 2008, 12:16 AM
That will be very easy to do with Unique and Power Pistol using data provided at the Alliant website. Download the newest guide, and the data is there in the +P section. Kinda surprised at the BB 1050 fps 125 grain +P load... Seems kinda tame to me.

FWIW, using less than max +P data from the Alliant guide and 158 grain LSWC's, gets a measured 930 fps from my 3" Model 60. Pretty good thumper, and why I never really warmed up to 125's in a .38 special.

chrisf8657
October 26, 2008, 06:52 AM
Alliant's max data comes about 3/4 to BB's velocities, but still not there. Other ideas?

Galil5.56
October 26, 2008, 10:55 AM
Even if both sides velocities are accurate, it's closer to 90% of BB fastest published loading... Since 86% is not close enough, get a hold of Speer #8 and see if that will work.

hoptob
October 27, 2008, 04:53 AM
Vihta Vuori manual shows 7.9 gr. of N350 as max CIP load for 125 JHP in 38 spc +P. They clocked it at 1290 fps from 6.5" bbl. Not quite Speer #8 but it is a respectable velocity. Chances are this load will pull 1070 fps in 2" revolver. If it was me I would go a bit slower - 1070 fps is too close to the sound barrier which may be causing shot-to-shot variation.

Note that this is CIP not SAAMI caliber standard. I believe it's 22,500 psi measured at case mouth. We had a good discussion about VV loads on S&W forum - link (http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/570103904/m/1861068723).

Mike

Galil5.56
October 27, 2008, 07:25 AM
Hodgdon also has published +P data from 1994 that exceeds BB's claimed velocities as well, with H4227 taking that honor. HS-7 and HS-6 almost exactly duplicate BB speeds. Barrel used was 4", and how close it actually comes only a particular revolver and a good chronograph can answer.

huntershooter
October 27, 2008, 08:06 AM
I run HS-6 in a "+P" .38 load.
No complaints.

Peter M. Eick
October 27, 2008, 12:41 PM
Get a copy of speer #8 and then do some searches on 4756, 2400 and unique. You can achieve BB velocities if you exceed current book max loads but it can be done.

The key point is you can get to BB velocities but you are going to be at 38/44 pressure levels or maybe high +P to do so.

hoptob
October 27, 2008, 06:48 PM
Good point, Peter. Intriguing thing though is that Tim Sundles said several times in this forum that his loads are in fact within modern caliber pressure limit. Personally I see no reason to doubt him.

Mike

Peter M. Eick
October 27, 2008, 07:54 PM
I won't disagree, but to find out how to do it, would require a pressure barrel, some time and a bit of patience.

So you can make the "educated" guess that Speer #8 loads taken on the light side are probably in the low +P range for todays specs or you can pressure barrel it.

I for one go for the 38/44's and say the heck with it. I load mine up very hot as my guns were designed for it. My goal is 1150 fps with a 158 and I can get it several ways.

ArchAngelCD
October 28, 2008, 01:38 AM
I also use HS-6 for hot .38 Special +P loads although I haven't tried to replicate BB loads. I achieve just under 900 fps with a 158gr lead bullet from a 2" barrel.

I have duplicated Speer 135gr Short Barrel rounds using AA#5 for the .38 Special +P and Power Pistol for the .357 Magnum rounds. I choose those powders because a replica round should not only duplicate the velocity but the over all feel too. The felt recoil and the type of recoil is very close in the Speer replica loads.

chrisf8657
October 28, 2008, 11:20 PM
What I can tell you all that chrono'd I get 1226 fps from a 3 inch Model 60. I pulled a BB 125 grain and +/- maybe .5 to .7 grains from losing some granules of powder, got 7.5 grains on the scale.

Is there anything anyone could post - powder & charge, that would replicate NEAR this?

Only loads I have that come anywhere close to BB are (and NOT in a 3inch barrell):

Power Pistol, Max Charge 6.3 Grs = 1165 Fps (Unknown Barrell)

MODERATOR EDIT:
Other loads, using HS6, HS7, and N320 which are in excess of published maximum load data have been redacted. If poster can cite recognized sources in which these were published, the loads will be restored to this post.
Johnny Guest
THR Staff
H&R Forum Moderator

Thx for the replies guys

jfh
October 30, 2008, 01:11 AM
Some mcls. added information:

1. a minor correction: CIP 38 Special pressure is <=21,750 psi This is a (European / metric) standard adopted by 1984, IIRC. Do you suppose US mfrs have been manufacturing their export firearms to a different standard than the domestic ones? (/sarcasm off)

2. Speer runs its 38 / 38+P tests to 20,000 or less, they say.

3. Ramshot ballistican says that, given their testing in a 7.5 pressure barrel, a 6" vented (revolver) barrel will drop velocity about 6%, 4" by 15%, and 2" by 23% or so.

4. I've never seen anyone obtain the velocities Vihtavuori claims.

5. The BB 125-gr. load is honest; I've chrono'd it in a 640. (So is the 158-gr "heavy 38+P" load). But I don't know of any retail powders that will do the BB velocities without pressures estimated well above the CIP standard.

6. Ramshot's True Blue may be the 38 Special wonder powder.

MODERATOR EDIT:
A load in excess of published maximum has been redacted. If poster can cite recognized sources in which this was published, the load will be restored to this post.
Johnny Guest
THR Staff
H&R Forum Moderator

is a CIP max load under a 125-gr. bullet, but I haven't chrono'd it yet--maybe tomorrow.


Jim H.

hoptob
November 4, 2008, 12:52 AM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published SAAMI maximum for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I ran several VV 3N37 loads over chrony and was very pleased with the results. In fact I was very impressed. 7.5 gr. 3N37 under 135 gr. GDHP in 38 spl cases clocked at a very respectable 998 fps from M442.

Neat thing about this load is that it duplicates Speer 135 gr. 357 magnum short barrel factory load (990 fps from 2" bbl). Better yet - according to VV 2002 manual this charge is within CIP version of 38 special caliber limit.

Mike

ArchAngelCD
November 4, 2008, 03:23 AM
If you're looking for another replica recipe for Speer 135gr .357 Magnum Short Barrel ammo give 8.8gr Power Pistol a try. I found that load to be the correct felt recoil to mimic the factory round. Also, that load is nowhere near the MAX charge listed by Alliant so it's more than safe. (MAX listed by Alliant is 9.6gr)

hoptob
November 4, 2008, 10:29 AM
Tony,

The idea was to duplicate ballistics of Speer 135 gr. 357 mag round in a load suitable for 442/642. For that it has to be done in 38 spl cases. There is of course a number of ways to duplicate it as 38/44. But AFAIK this is the only load that can do it within 38 special range of pressures. In this case it is CIP - not SAAMI range.

Mike

hoptob
November 4, 2008, 12:31 PM
What I can tell you all that chrono'd I get 1226 fps from a 3 inch Model 60. I pulled a BB 125 grain and +/- maybe .5 to .7 grains from losing some granules of powder, got 7.5 grains on the scale.

Is there anything anyone could post - powder & charge, that would replicate NEAR this?


Chris,

If you want to stay within published maximums, try N350 or 3N37. Big advantage of these powders is that VV provides load data up to CIP caliber limit - not 10-20% below SAAMI limit as other manufacturers do. It pays off - see my post above.

Here is the data from Finish edition (top) and US edition (bottom) of VV 2002 manual:

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/hoptob/VV2002-1.gif?t=1224653328

Longshot is another powder which will likely reach BB velocities with low max pressures. However Hodgdon does not provide load recommendations above 18,300 psi so you'd be on your own.

Mike

jfh
November 4, 2008, 01:05 PM
I've got those pages printed out to nominal 8.5x11 sheets for incorporation into my bench manual.

These two tables are the first set I have seen that directly compare 38 Special SAAMI pressures and the CIP pressures. Now, I'd better go back and check the bench to see how much V 3N37 and VN350 I have on hand...we still have a couple days of glorious Indian Summer weather here in MN to get to the range for chrono work.

I originally tested those two powders early on in my GDSB38+P "Replica Reloads" data--then set them aside because work with AA#5 (as noted by Tony) is so much more fruitful. At that time, the N350 was noticably harder in subjective recoil at 38+P pressures, so I set it aside. 3N37 left me feeling indifferent--

Now that my hand is sufficiently conditioned, "Replica Recoil" is not as much of a factor in my short-barrel testing. However, the principle of Replica Recoil recipes--e.g., building practice rounds for one's carry (factory) round still is vital for effective training, I think.

Maybe some more data shortly--the good weather will be gone by Thursday, I believe.

Jim H.

ArchAngelCD
November 5, 2008, 03:24 AM
Sorry Mike I missed that one. I see what you mean now...

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