Shotgun Defensive Ammunition

[rojocorsa]

I have no experience with defense ammo in shotguns, I have only shot trap with 12ga #8 shot pretty much.

My question is: What is the effective range of 00buck from a shotgun out 20 inch barrel with a modified choke?

And also, What other shotgun loads are good for defense or crowd(looters) control? The state of our economy has me pretty worried.:uhoh:

And I'm guessing that in a SHTF situation it is better to have a pump gun than a semi-auto, right?

[highorder]

00 buck is effective at any range you would consider self defense.

As far as auto vs. pump, use whatever you are comfortable with!

[Youngster]

Buckshot generally isn't effective beyond 35 yards IMO, even if your pattern stays tight the penetration ability of the pellets starts to become more and more erratic beyond that distance.

I prefer 000 buck for its tight patterns and relatively impressive individual pellet power, and #1 buck, for its high number of reasonably effective pellets. I see 00 buck as being somewhat of a mediocre compromise but I'd never feel underarmed using it and and it's certainly a lot easier to find in quantity compared to the other buckshot sizes.

[Sir Aardvark]

Try using Federal's "Flight Control" 00 buck in your gun and see how it patterns. This ammo tends to hold very tight patterns at further distances.

[ReloaderFred]

You can do pretty well with 00 buck to 35 to 40 yards, but that's about maximum range with it. You'll also want to practice some with it, since it has a tendency to rise, or hit above point of aim. I've seen suspects shot with it at about 30 yards, and they were DOA.

We used both 9 and 12 pellet loads, depending on the time period. When I started in 1971, we were using the 9 pellet loads, and then in about 1980 or so, we switched to the 2 3/4" Magnum loads with 12 pellets. I prefer the Magnum load myself.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[darkknight]

see if you can get federal tactical 00 buck. this stuff groups alarmingly tight. I've shot a lot of diffrent brands of buckshot but i have never seen something pattern so tightly in my life.

[meef]

My question is: What is the effective range of 00buck from a shotgun out 20 inch barrel with a modified choke?The effective range is longer than you should be shooting somebody if you are going to claim self defense.

And also, What other shotgun loads are good for defense or crowd(looters) control? The state of our economy has me pretty worried.Don't worry yourself into a frenzy. Paranoia is worse for you than the imagined crowd of looters you're picturing.

And I'm guessing that in a SHTF situation it is better to have a pump gun than a semi-auto, right? Only if the pump is more reliable than the semi-auto. That's not necessarily a given. Depends upon the shotgun and it's contingent upon you to do your homework and determine. Also, buy something and use it and decide just how reliable it is.

[psyprofessor]

1. I thought of using birdshot in inside-the-home defensive situation. I'm choosing birdshot to reduce wall penetration. I really don't want my shots ending up accross the street and penetrating the neighbor's house.

Question: How deadly is birdshot (12 gauge) within the range of say 30 feet max? How wide would the pattern be within that same 30 feet?

2. For outside-the-house riot control, (should the rare situation arise), I thought of using #1 buckshot. What would be the effective defensive range and how wide would the pattern be?

In both situations, I will be using the 2.75 in shell. Mossberg 500 Persusader Model.

[mauiglide]

I'm using alternating OO buckshot and 1 oz. slugs in my Mossberg 500A Cruiser shotgun. Chamber is not loaded for safety.

[Lee Lapin]

Every shotgun barrel is pretty much a law unto itself as far as patterning goes. The only way to determine what a given barrel will do with a given load at a given range is to take it out to the range and shoot it. Assumptions about shotgun and load performance are as dangerous as any other assumption made with no basis in fact. It's too easy to find out what your shotgun and load will do at various ranges to make assumptions that might not be borne out in fact.

"Crowd control?" I'm afraid I really can't find any useful or helpful way to address that. It isn't something I would want to have to undertake under any circumstances, and if I did have to, I don't think I'd want a shotgun to do it. Even as tight patterning as our house guns and loads tend to be, buckshot might not be 'specific' enough and slugs tend to overpenetrate. The problem in confronting a mob with a gun is that they just might force you to use it. I'd rather stay out of sight and not be directly confrontational.

A good quality, well maintained semiauto with good ammunition is going to be about as reliable as a pumpgun. Some people prefer one, some the other- use what you like. Pumpguns are less expensive by about half most of the time, that's a deciding factor for some people.

Psyprof, while I zipped up body bags on people killed with birdshot out of shotguns at short range in my brief career as an EMT, I won't use it in a defensive shotgun myself. Selecting loads for a defensive shotgun is an individual decision and I would not presume to make it for anyone else.

Stay Safe,

lpl

[mgkdrgn]

1.Question: How deadly is birdshot (12 gauge) within the range of say 30 feet max? How wide would the pattern be within that same 30 feet?

Plenty deadly enough out of a 12 gauge at that range. Use #6 or bigger, I like #4 or #1 myself inside the house, but #6 would get the job done.

2. For outside-the-house riot control, (should the rare situation arise), I thought of using #1 buckshot. What would be the effective defensive range and how wide would the pattern be?

Personally, at "outdoor" ranges I'd go straight to one of the "0" series buckshots. You're going to need something big and heavy with a bit of a pattern to it (you are going to need some "two for one" shots). And if there are more than 8 zombies coming, you had better have a 2nd gun and a 2nd shooter. :evil:

[Youngster]

1. I thought of using birdshot in inside-the-home defensive situation. I'm choosing birdshot to reduce wall penetration. I really don't want my shots ending up accross the street and penetrating the neighbor's house.

Question: How deadly is birdshot (12 gauge) within the range of say 30 feet max? How wide would the pattern be within that same 30 feet?

2. For outside-the-house riot control, (should the rare situation arise), I thought of using #1 buckshot. What would be the effective defensive range and how wide would the pattern be?

In both situations, I will be using the 2.75 in shell. Mossberg 500 Persusader Model.

I wouldn't want to depend on birdshot, #4 buckshot is about as light as I'd go, from what I've seen even #4 buck seems to be somewhat marginal in penetration beyond the distance where the shot column is hitting as one mass.

#1 buck should be good to 35 yards, just be aware that many shotguns don't seem to pattern this load very well and also that it gives up very little in recoil to a 12 pellet 00 Magnum load.

[Al Thompson]

Depending on your abode's construction, # 4 buck may be fine - or not. I like a good load of # 2 birdshot as my ranges will be close and the neighbors close. One huge advantage of the shotgun is the ability to stack loads - so, first up is # 2 birdshot, but after that buckshot - on the idea that if I've missed, things have changed.

[JShirley]

I use slugs exclusively for S/HD, as well as for deer.

Reduced recoil slugs tend to penetrate very deeply in deer-sized, lightly built game, but full power Foster slugs do not. Of course, you pay a recoil penalty for full power slugs.

John

[4thPointOfContact]

Sir Aardvark
"Try using Federal's "Flight Control" 00 buck in your gun and see how it patterns. This ammo tends to hold very tight patterns at further distances."

darkknight
"see if you can get federal tactical 00 buck. this stuff groups alarmingly tight. I've shot a lot of diffrent brands of buckshot but i have never seen something pattern so tightly in my life."

Federal's LE132-00 Reduced Recoil 00 Buck holds between 6 and 7 inches at 25 yards from my 18" unchoked Mossberg 930 SPX.
Sadly....that's a tighter pattern than I can hold pistol groups at said distance :(.

[heavyshooter]

"Buckshot generally isn't effective beyond 35 yards IMO, even if your pattern stays tight the penetration ability of the pellets starts to become more and more erratic beyond that distance." -- Youngster

I agree with Youngster. Here is a video that confirms the 35 yds estimate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVUY6YKot4

I believe that Federal's "Flight Control" 00 Buckshot may be an exception to this range but I have never tested it.

Heavy

[357wheelgunner]

1. I thought of using birdshot in inside-the-home defensive situation. I'm choosing birdshot to reduce wall penetration. I really don't want my shots ending up accross the street and penetrating the neighbor's house.


Then don't discharge any firearm in your house/neighborhood, under any circumstances, even if someone is endangering your family.

Birdshot creates ugly, messy, aweful looking, superficial, and very survivable wounds. It cannot be relied on to stop a determined attacker. There are many people who've been shot with birdshot that were able to drive themselves long ways to the hospitol, or home to treat themselves.

So many people think that a bullet that won't penetrate a wall will kill/stop a person. You can't have everything, there's compromise needed in things like shooting people inside your house. If you keep a firearm in your house, to be used in the possibility of a home invasion, you have to understand that if you miss, bullets will be zinging around your neighborhood.

Any projectile that will reliably kill/stop a human will go through several layers of drywall. Probably a few studs and brick too. Houses are not built that sturdily. The solution is to load up with ammunition that is powerful enough to reliably stop an attacker, and learn to shoot so you minimize your risk of stray rounds in the 'hood. I keep 00 buck in my shotguns. 00 will go through a person, and it will go through walls, but not nearly as much penetration as a rifle or some handgun rounds. It's the only reliable compromise out there.

[JShirley]

Actually, do a search on this here. Several recent threads had links to tests showing full power Foster slugs actually penetrate less than 00 buck at close range: this is due to slug deformation and/or fragmentation.

[Youngster]

Actually, do a search on this here. Several recent threads had links to tests showing full power Foster slugs actually penetrate less than 00 buck at close range: this is due to slug deformation and/or fragmentation.

In what mediums though? I've always found that Foster slugs penetrated at least as much and usually a lot more than any kind of buckshot.

[Al Thompson]

Having actually killed critters with birdshot, I agree that it's strictly a VERY close range solution, but it's a solution. The bigger the projectile, the furthur your lethal engagement area. My birdshot is #2 lead "goose loads" and breaks 2x4s out to about 5 yards - but the odds of a single pellet striking someone in another house are incredibly small.

[JShirley]

Youngster, ballistic gelatin. Links, anyone?

[Youngster]

Youngster, ballistic gelatin. Links, anyone?

I'll take those links, but I'd like to point out that ballistic gelatin is not building materials, if you miss your attacker with a slug then that thing will tend to carry a lot further through walls than any size of pellet.

[mgkdrgn]

Youngster, ballistic gelatin. Links, anyone?

Ask, and yea shall receive ....

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge.html

[Youngster]

Ask, and yea shall receive ....

Hmm, interesting thanks. I've usually found that slug vs buck penetration is more in line with the video above.

[mgkdrgn]

Hmm, interesting thanks. I've usually found that slug vs buck penetration is more in line with the video above.

Punching through a couple of pieces of sheet metal isn't at all like slogging through you way through a couple of feet of ballistic gel.

[JShirley]

As you can see from this picture (http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html), the Fed slug only penetrated 14.4" in gelatin. It should be at least a little less in tissue.

Penetration by 00 buck (http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gauge2.75inchmag.html) exceeded this.

[Youngster]

Seems it's so, but my experience and sources like the one below have almost always been that Foster slugs go deeper in materals, especially a complex array of materials, than buckshot. The faster the slug is pushed the further it tends to go.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[earlthegoat2]

Paraphrased from: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

For a load to stop bad guys they have to also be able to penetrate the walls of your home. So either dont shoot if the wall beyond the attacker is where your little bundle of joy is, or for the love of Pete hit the attacker and make sure that the load you are using wont go through both the attacker and the wall.

[Al Thompson]

boxotruth is a great web site, but - they tend to worse case everything and enjoy drinking their own kool-aid. Ever notice that they never test large diameter bird shot? Always low brass 8s at 5 yards or so. Try # 4 shot at 10 feet and you'll see a difference.

[UnclePete]

"And also, What other shotgun loads are good for defense or crowd(looters) control? The state of our economy has me pretty worried."

Crowd control! I am loving this! Many many years ago my platoon was trained in riot control; it was not a one-man job, it was violent, and there were enough of us with SLR's to be darned sure the mob was not going to rush us.

Basically it involved a snatch squad charging into the brick-throwing mob to grab the 'ringleaders', who would be given a severe battering with pick-handles and boots. If the mob was still there the platoon commander would start pointing out people to be shot, and if there was any return fire - well, you guess what would happen.

You're going to tackle a mob on your own? With a shotgun?

[JShirley]

I don't advise taking on a mob if there's a good alternative. Then again, I can look back at events in our nation's history, as recently as Reginald Denny's beating 16 years ago, where I would have felt obligated to attempt to protect someone against a mob. If faced with such a situation, I must believe distance and accuracy would be my friend.

John

[dfunde01]

In planning for home defense I am not expecting a planned attack by professionals. I expect that my target will be within 30' when I fire and even 1.25 ounces of #8 shot will be very effective close in. If the BG is running away, you could be on shaky legal grounds if you pursue and keep firing to put him down. My sole purpose is to end the threat to myself and my family. I can not visualize a BG continuing to advance after taking four or five rounds of 12 ga bird shot at increasingly decreasing ranges. I guess you could load a 3" 00 mag as your last round just in case.

[Gunnerpalace]

boxotruth is a great web site, but - they tend to worse case everything and enjoy drinking their own kool-aid.

+1 Yeah,

[C-grunt]

My dept uses Federal low recoil 00 buck for our shotguns. When shooting it in training (still have to take a full class to get qualified though...) ,aiming COM, all the pellets would usually stay on a standard silhouette target at about 25 yards. Now I dont own the smallest house out there but at no point in my house am I shooting past maybe 10 yards.

[bejay]

In planning for home defense I am not expecting a planned attack by professionals. I expect that my target will be within 30' when I fire and even 1.25 ounces of #8 shot will be very effective close in. If the BG is running away, you could be on shaky legal grounds if you pursue and keep firing to put him down. My sole purpose is to end the threat to myself and my family. I can not visualize a BG continuing to advance after taking four or five rounds of 12 ga bird shot at increasingly decreasing ranges. I guess you could load a 3" 00 mag as your last round just in case.
considering that the bg could be armed and have the ability to shoot back there is no way that I would use number 8 birdshot thats way to light even at 10 yards, number 4 birdshot would be the lightest I would consider using.

[mgkdrgn]

If the BG is running away, you could be on shaky legal grounds if you pursue and keep firing to put him down.

If he's still in my house, and still armed, he isn't "running away" he is "maneuvering for position".

BANG! BANG!

[The Janitor]

Rubber Buckshot (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/34354-1.html). I'd follow them with lead incase the rubber isn't enough warning.

They also make rubber slugs (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/34354-1.html), but I've only seen those for people running off predators from their sheep/cattle/etc.

I think the rubber they use is hard to keep from gumming up the barrel and losing velocity because of the lighter weight, not something soft with high elasticity like a bouncy ball.

Not sure if these are the right compound, but might be worth looking at if you're a reloader who likes to experiment:
Rubber Balls at Rubbermill.com (http://www.rubbermill.com/ballcomm.html)

[Youngster]

I really like the Winchester Supreme 00 buck loads, specifically the 2.75" 9 pellet and 3" 12 pellet, both at a crispy 1450 fps. It's not Federal FlightControl or Hornady TAP in terms of patterning but it seems to hold its own with just about anything else.

[earlthegoat2]

I just picked up some dual diameter buckshot loads. One pellet at .60 in and 6 pellets of #1. Some 20 yd testing when I get the chance will be in order. I figure as long as that .60 pellet hits the body at 20 yds it should be good enough for me. These are 2 3/4 loads too.

I hope these are some straight up Zombie destroyers.

[Youngster]

I just picked up some dual diameter buckshot loads. One pellet at .60 in and 6 pellets of #1. Some 20 yd testing when I get the chance will be in order. I figure as long as that .60 pellet hits the body at 20 yds it should be good enough for me. These are 2 3/4 loads too.

I hope these are some straight up Zombie destroyers.

I've used a load like that and was fairly impressed, they were handloads given to me that consisted of 1 .65 ball and 6 #1 buck. I saw it as a best-of-both-worlds combination of a slug and a typical 00 buck load.

The only issues seemed to be that the ball went from being reasonably accurate to increasingly erratic over 50 yards {this was the main reason slugs replaced ball rounds originally} and also the ball seemed to penetrate like a Foster slug, which could be good or bad depending.

[mgkdrgn]

[QUOTE=Youngster;5046360they were handloads given to me that consisted of 1 .65 ball and 6 #1 buck. I saw it as a best-of-both-worlds combination of a slug and a typical 00 buck load.[/QUOTE]

Years ago when I was handloading 12g we made up a bunch of stuff like that and used it for woodchucks. We called it "Party Mix" :evil: ... worked pretty good I recall when you got close enough.

[calamaridog]

Birdshot is for birds fellas:banghead: I've killed lots of birds.

00 buck and slug are for folks. Any buck is ok, but hey, I'm comfortable with 00 buck since they issue it to me. Thankfully, I haven't had to kill lots of folks:scrutiny:

I've put a few thousand rounds of Remington Law Enforcement low recoil 00 and slug downrange. Works great.

For the "home" shotty, I used Federal LE. Very effective and more accurate/tighter patterns than any other defense ammo I've used.

You can buy the Federal stuff here:

www.ammunitiontogo.com

[Jack2427]

Dog is right. Use birdshot at your peril. Anyone using birdshot for defense deserves the problems that will arise. Birdshot wounds are quite surviveable, and also very savagely disfiguring-read big time litigation. You can always justify 00 Buck or any other Buck as it is what the cops and military use. Slugs fall into the same territory. Birdshot has all of the disadvantages and none of the advantages of a BB gun.
If you are going to arm yourself for HD or any other reason, you had better get your mind right and use the proper weapon/ammo, AND be prepared for the consequences of your actions, emotional and legal. Some folks feel that using birdshot is more "humane", it isn't, not for you at least. Of course to gain the benefits of being "humane" you have to survive. Using birdshot is a good way to insure that won't happen.