45/70, 2 much speed?


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moooose102
October 19, 2008, 10:57 PM
i have a box of shells loaded up for deer hunting for my 45/70. they are loaded up pretty near max load. i came across a couple of threads that were talking about how big bore really do not need all that much speed, that they kill with the bullet weight. well, balisticaly, there is more energy with more speed. but with big bores is there such a thing as to much speed. i guess like the bullet is traveling so fast that it does not get a chance to apply the energy and just blows right through? this will be my second year hunting with it. but last year i did not shoot a deer. so i do not know how this cannon will work yet. all of my kills have been with 30 caliber rifles, and there the more speed, the better. what i am doing here is second guessing myself due to a lack of experience. i would hope that i would get posts from people that have killed deer or deer sized game using fast and slow moving bullets. thanks.

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1858rem
October 19, 2008, 11:11 PM
how fast are you talkin? w/405g 1800 would be plenty for me, i only shoot 285g buffalo bullits out of my 45 inline around 2100-2200fps so 2926fpe for a 285@2150fps and 2914fpe for a 405@1800fps are about the same.... and i think you would retain the energy much farther too

Seafarer12
October 19, 2008, 11:17 PM
I wouldn't even be worried about it. If nothing else you will punch a 45 caliber hole straight threw it. It mainly depends on the bullet and its construction.

goon
October 19, 2008, 11:20 PM
I'm not a ballistician but I'd say don't worry about it.
A .45-70 doesn't need speed to do its job but as long as your pressures are safe, it certainly won't hurt it any either.

MachIVshooter
October 19, 2008, 11:22 PM
I run my Marlin 1895 with 405 gr. soft points just over 2,000 FPS. It's a sledgehammer, for sure.

Cypress
October 19, 2008, 11:33 PM
Some hollow points will not stand too much velocity. The 300 grain Remingtons will blow up like varmint grenades at about 2200 fps. Running the soft point and hard cast bullets faster will be a little harder on you but makes little difference on the target. Most just punch a clean hole at any speed.

browningguy
October 19, 2008, 11:36 PM
It really depends on the 45-70 you are shooting. Ruger no 1 and modern Browning 1885 can easily shoot 400 grain loads over 2100 fps, mine gets in the range of a .458 winnie. Most manuals list loads for older guns, modern lever actions, and modern single shots, so choose your poison wisely.

Personally I like shooting 350 and 400 gr. SP's at around 2000 FPS (in my 1885 Browning), it's not terrible on recoil and does the job on game.

1858rem
October 19, 2008, 11:41 PM
come to think of it.... even if you do just punch a through and through hole, its still gonna be at least a half inch hole lol:D

Seafarer12
October 20, 2008, 12:42 AM
come to think of it.... even if you do just punch a through and through hole, its still gonna be at least a half inch hole lol

My 500 grain hand cast bullets will punch a hole through just about anything. They are a little rough on the shoulder though.

TIMC
October 20, 2008, 12:51 AM
I have used my H&R Buffalo Classic on pigs using 300 grain JHP and 57.0 grains of Varget. That load gets me right about 1800fps and gives some impressive expansion. On some pig I shot all I found was the jacket at the end of a 2" diameter wound channel.

moooose102
October 20, 2008, 08:58 AM
On some pig I shot all I found was the jacket at the end of a 2" diameter wound channel.
that's not a wound channel, that's a tunnel!
i loaded up a box of 400 grain speer jfp's over 55.0 grains of imr4198. that gives me an average speed of 1971 fps out of my marlin guide gun. it is still a little stout, even with the muzzel brake, but my shoulder can handle it. funny thing about this gun. even with it kicking like a mule (before i had the mb installed) i am relaxed shooting it. i just let it jump around in (and 1/2 out of) my hands. the first few shots i took, i held on pretty tightly, not really knowing what to expect. but since that first trip, i just let it jump. it isnt going to go anywhere.

Beagle-zebub
October 20, 2008, 09:24 AM
How does one get a muzzle-brake for a Marlin? It seems like the sensible thing to do.

freakshow10mm
October 20, 2008, 09:53 AM
Why on earth would you want to do that?

MMCSRET
October 20, 2008, 10:35 AM
The one factor that speed does enhance is a flatter trajectory. Slightly less hold over on long shots. I played with my #1 and 340 gr. cast bullets at speeds from 1350 to 2000 and the faster speeds helped make longer range shooting and range doping easier.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 20, 2008, 11:42 AM
but with big bores is there such a thing as to much speed. i guess like the bullet is traveling so fast that it does not get a chance to apply the energy and just blows right through?


No there's not such a thing as "too much speed" within the specific parameters you're talking about (.45-70 mid vs. .45-70 max with rifle bullets, not handgun bullets). If anything, it will help with (a) expansion, and (b) getting to the animal more quickly, in the case of moving game (and also trajectory/wind drift if you're shooting past say, 125 yards). However, as you noted, speed is not necessary for killing power with big bores.

ocharry
October 20, 2008, 01:06 PM
wow,,you guys really like the big fire

i use a 425gr. lyman cast bullet(by me) over 23gr. of IMR4198,,,this load calls for a dacron wad over the powder( i use grits for a filler,,just enough to fill the space,,no compression),,,gives about 1150fps,,easy on the shoulder,,,i started loading this for cowboy long range rifle cartridge matches,,,you know light recoil = more faster times,,,,but i thought,, should work for deer too,,,,,,and it does a great job,,,i have never had one not go through a deer

this load came out of the lyman cast bullet handbook, third edition....it is a load for 1873 springfield trap door,,,,the load calls for the 457193 bullet that lyman says weighs in a 405gr.they come from my mold at 415-418gr.,,,,i substituted the lyman 457643 bullet that lyman says weighs 400gr.these come from my mold at 410-415gr.,,and it has a bigger meplate and in my marlin it does shoot better

my .02

ocharry

Asherdan
October 20, 2008, 01:43 PM
moooose102, buddy of mine used the 400g Speer loaded within 50fps of your velocity and took it out after pig in his 1895G. 190 pound pig, turned just as he let loose at 175 yards. Bullet went in through the left ham and exited through the right shoulder and into the hillside. Dug a channel all the way through, pig just went 'flop'. No fragments.

That Speer bullet at 1900 is good medicine for you and bad for the deer, I'm thinking.

ArmedBear
October 20, 2008, 01:51 PM
520 grain over BP at under 1300 MV will go straight through a buffalo and keep going. I cast the round nose bullet myself from a wheel-weight/pure lead alloy.

There is no reason to overload .45-70, use expensive bullets, or any such thing. When you're talking about a .45-70, there's nothing unusual about a bullet that will go through a 190 lb. animal; a lighter load and a basic lead slug will do the same.

I'd try to find an accurate load, not the hottest load I can stuff in the gun.

Faster velocity will flatten the trajectory. But if you want a flat shooter, why use a .45-70?

Asherdan
October 20, 2008, 02:07 PM
I'm just telling him I think what he has on hand will work, right now. It's a little late to be working up from new.

I'd try to find an accurate load, not the hottest load I can stuff in the gun.

Faster velocity will flatten the trajectory. But if you want a flat shooter, why use a .45-70?

After farting around with the cartridge, this is exactly where I've come down at. I'm using a 350g cast at 1390, but what matters is that it's accurate in my rifle.

ArmedBear
October 20, 2008, 02:18 PM
Well, that's true. If that's what he has loaded, it will certainly work.:)

Whether it's deer or buffalo, though, make sure there's nothing behind the animal -- with any .45-70 load. It'll drop two deer easily.

moooose102
October 22, 2008, 08:07 AM
How does one get a muzzle-brake for a Marlin? It seems like the sensible thing to do.

that is easy, you just have to take it to a gunsmith!. i highly recomend the "Gentry muzzle brake". they advertise it as the quiet muzzle brake. if you read other posts about muzzle brakes,everybody complains about the noise. i have shot mine several time with no hearing protection with no problems. i am not saying it is a muffler by any means. it just does not seem to be a lot louder that it originally was. now, with that being said, when i go target shooting, i always wear hearing protection, even if all i am shooting is my 22. i WANT to be able to hear that deer trying to sneak past me. even if i cant see it.

Al Thompson
October 22, 2008, 08:24 AM
moooose, sounds like a super load to me! You do have over expansion issues when you take a bullet past it's designed impact speed, but your not there IMHO. :) Load that 400 gr bullet in a .458 or .460 and you might have problems. :D

Shawnee
October 22, 2008, 09:30 AM
+1 for Armed Bear's comments.

A former neighbor loaded the 400-grainer to about the same velocity as "ocharry's" .425 load and, though it was pretty comfortable to shoot, it absolutely flattened every deer and hog he shot with it. Pretty easy to see why so many people suggest the 45/70 as grizzly medicine.

:cool:

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