[dm]

How come there arent any bullpup shotguns on the market?

[Ash]

There was, made by Mossberg. A thing of the past now.

I suppose you could take a Saiga and use one of those AK bullpup setups to convert one.

Ash

[4thPointOfContact]

There are, or have been, or will be a few in the world:

There is the Neostead shotgun that carries two each 6-round magazines for a total of 12-rounds on tap. I don't think the BATFE liked it, apparently there is a 'sporting clause' for the ownership of firearms.

There was the High Standard Model 10A and 10B with 4+1 as standard and 7+1 with an extended magazine. I have one and think the concept was good but the execution was lacking.

There will be the Monolith Arms P-12 with a 20-round horizontally oriented magazine similar to the one used on the P90/PS90 PDW. It is supposed to premier this December in Phoenix, Ariz. at the Small Arms Review (SAR) show.

[Dave McCracken]

I've handled both the HS and Mossberg's version. Clunky, bad, bad triggers and handled like a cinder block.

The concept has merit. A while back, some enterprising designers asked for input from me on a dual magged bullpup pump that looked lots like that P-12. I wonder if it's a stepchild of my ideas or just parallel....

[Fred Fuller]

There is the Neostead shotgun that carries two each 6-round magazines for a total of 12-rounds on tap. I don't think the BATFE liked it, apparently there is a 'sporting clause' for the ownership of firearms.

I think the issue was more with importation than with ownership. The Neostead is a South African design/product AFAIK.

I used to have a HS 10A, I really regret selling it. It was the only one I've ever seen. Lots of 10Bs, but not a single other 10A.

Mostly the lack of current products seems an issue that 4th POC pointed out- more a problem of execution than design...

lpl

[DMR]

I have spoken with the ATF, a few US firms, one of the US owners of one, Truvelo and Hynes Stead, one designers, about the Neostead. It is a very interesting concept, that could be produced in the US IF there was sufficent interest. That said it is a preety complex design with a HIGH parts count. Most of us shotguners like things simple though and this keeps some of the space gun concepts out of reach.

In general if you look at bullpup designs they don't fit the main stream US market. The AUG had lack luster sales and most of the other modern Bullpup rifle designs have not attempted to enter the US Market( FAMAS, L-85, SAR-21, Tavor, CR-21, F2000, ect). Various reason for that, a large ones are the inablity to rapidly switch from left to right handed firing positions, location of the mag release vs. the M-4 family and triggers.

Bullpup rifle/shotgun designs are perhaps the best method of balancing the needs of our LE/MIL end users, but are unconventional enough that they meet with resistance to adoption.

Looking forward to this discussion as it agoes with two of our continued interests and research projects: 1. Shotguns 2. Bullpup designs.

[dm]

So, I know about all the ones that were; the Mossberg, the High-Standard, the Neostead, etc etc. None of these seem to have succeeded. I'm wondering why?

I know the story of the High-Standard, which is that it was unreliable (and I never figured out why they didnt have an extended magazine from the get-go).

The Neostead cant be imported into the US, and as another commenter noted, it has a very high part count. Also, the tip-up tube mags impose a bunch of design constraints on the upper part of the weapon. Seems like it would make more sense to have two loading slots up there instead.

Not sure what happened with the Mossberg Bullpup, maybe the assault weapon ban?

The Monolith Arms thing looks as big and ugly as the Mossberg Bullpup. A beast. Removable magazine means it cant be sold in California. Seems to me that the thing would be a whole lot better if they stacked the rounds vertically along the barrel as with the G11.

At any rate, a pump-action, 9-shot, 26" shotgun with an 18" barrel is certainly achievable using just about any of the pumpguns out there as a starting point.

I'm thinking that a downward ejection type shotgun (an Ithaca or Browning) would be the best platform to build around. Ambidextrous, and safer because there's no ejection port near your face.

The Ithaca design is out of patent - does anyone know where to find CAD files for their receiver?

[dm]

DMR - your point about the M4 family of safeties and triggers is a good one - I assume you are talking about the M4/M16 rather than the Benelli M4?

Yeah, for the US market, a bullpup shotgun should accept AR15 handgrips and closely follow the AR15 safety mechanism (ambidextrous, of course).

[DMR]

dm,

I like that photo shop Ithica:)
ANd yes I'm refering to the AR family. The Benelli is the M-1014 to me.

[dm]

So the trigger mechanisms are the downfall of bullpups.

I havent had a close look at any, but I guess I can think of several mechanisms.


Cable pull (saw this on an AK bullpup conversion - blech).
Direct pushrod - trigger pull directly pushes rod or rods backwards. I believe this is how the Steyr AUG does it, with the rods going around the magwell. Ive also found mention of stiff plates being used instead of rods for the SAR-21. Also the muzzelite conversion package, but i believe there a common complaint that the pushrod is bendy and gives a bad trigger pull feeling.
Levered pushrod - trigger pulls a lever backwards, rod connected between lever hinge and trigger is pushed backwards.
Levered pullrod - trigger pulls lever backwards, rod connected on other side of hinge is pulled forwards.


Hard to find much detail on bullpup trigger mechanisms on the web. Anyone got any info on this - or can point me to some.

[Mossberg88]

Also, generally speaking, the ejection mechanisms don't go well for left handed shooters, i.e. hot metal casing to the face.

[nalioth]

The Monolith Arms thing looks as big and ugly as the Mossberg Bullpup. A beast. Removable magazine means it cant be sold in California The Monolith Arms offering is a pump shotgun.

[dm]

Ahh - youre right its only semiautos with detachable magazines. that are prohibited.

[T191032]

The High Standard was probably the "sexiest" of Bullpups, if not the most practical, even.

[Girodin]

I suppose you could take a Saiga and use one of those AK bullpup setups to convert one.

I saw a 410 with that set up, the owner said it took a whole lot of modification to the kit and custom work to get it to work. It looked really cool however.

[Ash]

You know, one big problem I have with bullpup shotguns is just how high above the bore your head is. Shotgunning, for me, does best when my head is just above the barrel (behind the action, of course). And while I don't really sight down the shotgun when I am leading a duck, I think having the axis so much lower than my head would make intuitive shooting so much less likely.

Ash

[dm]

Ash, thats a problem with all bullpups - one thats solved by having a raised guide or channel running along the top of the weapon, and/or a combat optic of some sort.

[Ash]

Right, but shotguns are more intuitive in the way you shoot them. With bullpup rifles, you use the optics or realize that your iron sights are going to have a much bigger compensation to be on target than a conventional rifle. However, with a shotgun, you really become one with the shotgun, keeping your eye on the target and the shooting it. In my case, ducks and rabbits are my biggest use, but the same would go for home-defense.

So, the bore is considerably further down, significantly more so than the bottom barrel of an O/U shotgun. It may merely be an issue of transition from one type of shotgun to another, but I imagine I wouldn't hit much at all for a while if I tried a bullpup shotgun. Inversely, I imagine I would not be able to hit anything with a conventional shotgun if all I had used was a bullpup.

However, I imagine I could pick up an AUG and be on target from the beginning, even though all I ever shoot, rifle-wise, are traditional lay-outs.

Ash

[dm]

A bullpup is no different from a straight-line weapon like an M16 - the sights are about 4" above the barrel.

I do get what you mean though - that with a convention configuration shotgun - you are basically looking straight down the barrel.

A bullpup weapon trades off some simplicity for compactness.