AFriend in MO - his experience with the Sheriff's Dept -


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WAGCEVP
September 14, 2003, 10:07 AM
Ok folks, as promised, here is my experience with the City of St. Louis
sheriff's dept. yesterday.

I went into the sheriff's dept. knowing full well they didn't have anything
in place yet, it' just my twisted way of having a little fun with this
thing, and kind of rubbing it in.

Anyway, I walked in as there was a big discussion between several deputies.
One person said, "the police wouldn't give her a restraining order, so she
came in here for a permit to purchase a pistol, and that's scarry". My
initial thoughts were, why, she has to do what she has to do to protect
herself if the police won't.

Then another person said, "in 30 days we're going to have people lined at
that counter and into the halls for ccw permits". This one large woman
sitting at a desk said, "we are not going to make it easy for anyone, if
they even have an outstanding parking ticket they will be denied".

Having heard enough of this nonsense I said, "excuse me, I need some help".

A young woman came to the counter and asked what I needed. I replied, "I
want to apply for a concealed carry permit". She looked suprised and said,
"we don't give those out here, you have to go to St. Louis County Police".
I
replied, "I live in the City, why would I go to the county for a permit"?

The large woman at the desk said, "Sir, we don't give out the permits, that
is county police". I again said, "I live in the city, and the new law
says I
have to apply with the sheriff of the county I live in".

The young woman asked me to wait a minute and went to a phone. She returned
a short time later and said, "ok, we will issue the permits, but we don't
have anything here yet, and no one seems to know what to do".

Then the large woman said, "when we do issue the permits, they are going to
be very expensive, at least $250 or $300". I said, "no, the law says $100".
She gave me a bewildered look and said, "we were told St. Louis City is
going to charge about $300 for a permit". I said, "you need to research
the
STATE law that says $100".

A man sitting nearby chimed in and said, "if they were going to pass this
law, you would think they would have let us know what to do before now". I
said, "the law was passed in May, the governor vetoed it, and the
legislature just over rode the veto, so it's been almost 4 months, you
people should have been preparing for this".

I then dropped my Florida ccw license on the counter and said, "what about
this"? The young woman said, "that's no good, it's for Florida".
I said,
"according to the law, Missouri will honor valid permits from other states".

She asked me to wait again and went back to the phone. She returned after
quite a few minutes and said, "I just spoke with Major Lynch, and he said we
will honor other state's permits". I then said, "I would rather give my
$100
to Missouri, but if you people want to play silly with this, I'll give my
$107 to Florida and still carry my gun here for the next 5 years with this
permit".

Several people looked a bit embarrased, and the large woman said, "we're
sorry sir, we don't have any of the information you just told us". I said,
"you guys need to ask a whole lot of questions, and have a whole lot of
answers, because like the gentleman over there said, within the next 30 days
you're going to have a ton of folks standing here expecting to apply for
permits".

I then said, "I'll be back in a few weeks, have a nice day".

After I returned home, I thought about this whole ordeal, and figured this
is what will happen in most of the urban areas of the state, especially St.
Louis city and county, and Kansas City.

I spoke with some police firends today, and they said the law takes effect
in 30 days, the sheriff's have another 45 days to deny the permit, if not
they "shall issue". With all the glitches in paperwork, my friend said
no
one will probalby receive a permit before the first of the year.

So I decided to go ahead and send my $107 to Florida and start packing in 30
days. Maybe they will figure this out in 5 years, and I'll get my Missouri
license then.

I also have a plan for all the merchant's who post "No hidden guns" signs.
We walk in and ask for the manager. When they show up, announce in a voice
heard by nearby customers, "I was going to shop here, but by posting that
sign, you just notified criminals that no one in here will be able to stop
them from killing us all". Then walk out.

It's not over, I expect the games to begin.

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berettaman
September 14, 2003, 10:15 AM
Can I get an AMEN!:D

Kamicosmos
September 14, 2003, 10:27 AM
I don't really agree with your methods, but I too fear getting what I call the DMV treatment when I go to apply in 30 days. That's when you go and find out you need 'X' forms from here, there and everywhere. So you spend half the day running around town, go back and wait in another long line to find out either you still need one more thing, or you didn't need half of what you did get.

I figure I'm going to wait till the 30 days, or maybe even a bit after to at least inquire about it, just to give them the time needed to get everything in place. It IS the gov't after all, even if the law stated 'all state citizens get to carry any type of weapon in any fashion without any kind of paperwork or involvement of the state what so ever' they would still find a way to drag their heels and mope along about it.

Especially in St Louis and KC metro areas, where the politicians and police are blatantly against the whole thing.

I am actually expecting to have to travel out into the countryside a bit, go to a more friendly county for my permit.

(Which, I'm moving a bit further south next month, so maybe my new county will be more appealing gunwise...)

As far as businesses posting no gun signs, I'll just not frequent them any more unless absolutely neccessary. I'm one of those dreaded Silent Dissatisfied customers. If it's a place I really like shopping at, I may write a letter or call the manager. I'm also the type that figures concealed means concealed, so what they don't know...

I figure what MO needs right now is polite gun owners. Work with the system, we've worked hard to get it. It's not going to get improved if we cause major uproars over the little stuff. Wait till the sherriff of your county starts denying the permits, then you can feel free to raise hell about it.

:)

techmike
September 14, 2003, 11:22 AM
I agree with your methods 100%. Most of the time public servants are helpful and professional, but when I run into a bunch like you did I delight in reminding them that they are indeed PUBLIC SERVANTS and not an elite ruling class. I hate it when Gub'ment employees on any level get the idea that they shoul make policy regardless of the law. Keep 'em honest. :D

IAJack
September 14, 2003, 11:27 AM
As far a frequenting anti businesses..

I think everyone should get those little business cards printed up explaining why they lost your business and are unprotected.(like they did in in MN) Leave one on the table of those places. If everyone starts speaking up in this way I bet they will get the idea quickly!

Also the way I understand the law is that if you are asked to leave and don't and the cops are called it is only a 100 dollar fine and not a punishable offense. While 100 isnt anything cheap to some it isn't a huge deal either. Concealed is concealed so if they don't know it won't be an issue and if it becomes one it sounds like no big deal -just leave if asked?

greyhound
September 14, 2003, 11:44 AM
Stories like this are why I'm always skeptical when I hear that "rank and file LEOs are overwhelmingly in favor of CCW, its the politician chiefs that oppose it."

Not that some aren't, mind you, but I think the number might be exaggerated.

Old Fuff
September 14, 2003, 12:29 PM
They won't have too throw me out of any store that objects to CCW licensed customers. I will leave willingly - with my money.

Our local Wally- Mart was that way for awhile. But before long the word got back to them, and the signs changed. The manager deduced that paying customers were more important than non-paying signs.

jarhead
September 14, 2003, 12:30 PM
I totally understand how frustrating it was dealing with them; however, you have to go through them to get what you want so consider your end goal here - it's not to change the system or the world, it's to get your CCW permit. Not meaning to be cynical, but butting heads with every idiot you run into will only give you a headache (I know because I used to do just that and boy did it hurt)...

My dad was a judge for over 40 years and he used to say that sometimes "right & wrong have nothing to do with it"... meaning - they were totally wrong what they did in handling your situation, but nonetheless, you sometimes have to bite your tongue and let idiots be idiots so that they don't keep you from getting your permit "because you had so much as a parking ticket"...

Sorry to preach - I've gotten a little tired with my history of standing up for what is right while everyone around me sits on their hands because they don't want to make waves... guess I'm just too old anymore to keep butting heads trying to get people that are paid for doing their job - to actually do their job....

Jeff Thomas
September 14, 2003, 12:45 PM
Boy, am I out of touch. Glad to hear the great news about MO.

Here in TX I've received the following card (for distribution ... not too much of a problem here, though):

Side 1:

Graphic of a slash through a gun, and "equals" sign, and then a slash through a dollar bill.

Below: "We have noticed your sign, and are going to respect your wishes by shopping elsewhere."

Side 2:

"As a Texas CHL holder I:
-- Have no felony convictions -- lifetime
-- No class A or B misdemeanors within the last 5 years
-- Passed both state and federal fingerprint and background checks
-- No delinquent conduct within the past 10 years
-- Not delinquent in child support, student loans or state / local taxes
*** How much do you know about your other customers! ***

Best wishes as you convert your MO culture to be more respectful and understanding of that fundamental human right ... self defense. It will take time.

Regards from TX

WAGCEVP
September 14, 2003, 04:10 PM
Techmike, it's NOT MY method :)... I left MO (JC) YEARS ago :) and haven't had the oppotunity to get back (unfortunately).................. The note was from an rkba activist cohort of mine in MO.

and I personally approve of what he did, all he did was "test" the system. All he did was attempt to educate those who are supposed to know the law.
and he's right, the new laws passed need to be passed on to those agencies whom the lawmakers expect to carry them out...... it reminds me of the tag law here - it changed from going with the car to going with the person........... I've run ito the same idea of having to explain the law to both the DMV and insurance companies......

not a good thing when citizens know more about the law than those who are there to enforce them :D

No cop bashing intented and please let's not turn this into one of those threads

Standing Wolf
September 14, 2003, 05:38 PM
"I was going to shop here, but by posting that sign, you just notified criminals that no one in here will be able to stop them from killing us all". Then walk out.

I don't ever do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.

litman252
September 14, 2003, 09:05 PM
I'm thinking this is the cyristal ball for Wis.
Tony

Gray Peterson
September 14, 2003, 09:25 PM
This one large woman sitting at a desk said, "we are not going to make it easy for anyone, if they even have an outstanding parking ticket they will be denied".

Can you say LAWSUIT?

John, Greg Jeffrey, I hope all of you are on top of possible abuses by St. Louis County and City. It was these bastards who were heavily against CCW reform in the first place, and you can bet they will throw up roadblocks.

JohnKSa
September 14, 2003, 09:35 PM
Does anyone know if TX CHLs are accepted in MO now?

Gray Peterson
September 14, 2003, 09:36 PM
Btw, you have to apply at your county of residence in Missouri. So we're stuck with these St. Louis idiots.

Gray Peterson
September 14, 2003, 09:46 PM
Does anyone know if TX CHLs are accepted in MO now?

They will be accepted on October 11th, 2003.

Andrew Rothman
September 14, 2003, 10:41 PM
Going in the day after the law passed was not really a fair test. The police are not obligated to know a darned thing for another 28 days or so.

The experience in MN was actually very positive. In spite of a lot of resistance to the bill before it passed, MN sheriffs overwhelmingly followed the letter of the law.

Mild exceptions: Washington County Sheriff James J. Frank had the words "sub recuso" (latin: "under protest") beneath his signature. Hennepin county tried to require an appointment to file an application, and limited appointments to 30 or 40 a day, but didn't strictly stick to that policy.

It is in no one's best interest to pointlessly bait clerks before their superiors have written the policies they'll follow. In fact, I think it'll just help sour them on the idea and fuel their desire to be obstructionist to future applicants.

So tell your pal to shut his fat yap, wait the 30 days, and THEN throw a stink if bureaucrats mess up. His antics are immature and detrimental to the rest of us.

Matt

Gray Peterson
September 15, 2003, 12:55 AM
Mpayne:

You're right. This is baiting pure and simple.

Here is something interesting:

St. Louis Sheriff's Department (http://stlouis.missouri.org/government/sheriff.html)

The Sheriff also has the duty of serving court papers, eviction notices,issuing jury summons and gun permits.

Gun permits are a recent addition. When I checked into St. Louis City Sheriff's page a few days ago, it did not say Gun permits on it.

So they are on the ball for it.

I know pro-gun people in Missouri, especially those in the city of St. Louis, are extremely angry at St. Louis' oppression of their self defense rights, but they won a few days ago. These clerks don't even know what the law is. The "denial of a permit based on an unpaid parking ticket" or "charge 200 to 300 dollars" is likely what they WANT to be the case, not what is the case. The elected Sheriff's are not stupid. Not even in Minnesota do you have that kind of crap happening.

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