Need advice on scope for long-range


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texas chase
October 22, 2008, 12:11 PM
I was just given a Savage 112 in 7mm Rem Mag and I'm looking to make this my "long-range" rifle. I will be shooting out to 6-800 yards and possibly 1000 later. I have a Choate "Super Sniper" stock but need a good scope. I've been doing a little research but am still fairly new to optics.

Also, I was contemplating about putting a muzzle brake on it. Any suggestions or thoughts?

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taliv
October 22, 2008, 12:29 PM
hunting? f-class? plinking?

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 12:48 PM
Target shooting mainly... I'd love to do some practical long-range shooting in the future and possibly F-class.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 22, 2008, 01:06 PM
What's the budget?

Jim Watson
October 22, 2008, 01:11 PM
Schmidt und Bender
US Optics
Nightforce
Leupold
Other.

Higher power than you think you need, you will learn to hold it or to keep winding up a variable.

gvnwst
October 22, 2008, 01:30 PM
F-class dosen't allow muzzle brakes, IIRC. another choice is HORUS scopes. or just installing their reticals in another scope.

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 01:46 PM
$350-400 price range

No F-class then (no muzzle brake)

Practical Long-range shooting

How about specific scopes? magnification power? objective lens size?
features?

And how about muzzle brakes? Are there manufacturers out there that make them as aftermarket parts? Any recommendations? I'm assuming you need an experienced gunsmith to install...

Coal Dragger
October 22, 2008, 01:49 PM
$350-$400 will not buy you a scope with enough mechanical accuracy/repeatability to be of any value to you at the ranges you wish to shoot at.

Save some more money.

Jim Watson
October 22, 2008, 01:51 PM
Put the price of a muzzle brake into the scope budget.

Put some lead in any recess or opening in the stock.

BigBuckMaster
October 22, 2008, 01:59 PM
i would put a 5-15x50mm on it. oh, i did already on my .338, oops. mine is a US Optics SN-3. works pretty damn good. good luck

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 03:38 PM
"$350-$400 will not buy you a scope with enough mechanical accuracy/repeatability to be of any value to you at the ranges you wish to shoot at.

Save some more money."

This is my price range. Period. Does any body else agree with the above?

(BTW, Muzzle brake will come later.)

taliv
October 22, 2008, 03:56 PM
check out http://www.rapidreticle.com/

MIL-DOT
October 22, 2008, 07:38 PM
If $400 is your max, and you GOING to get a scope, I don't think anyone here will call this a terrible recommendation......
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9838-184-bushnell-5-15x40-elite-3200-rifle-scope.aspx

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 07:41 PM
Thank you Mil Dot. Why do you make this suggestion?

Anybody else?

Auburn1992
October 22, 2008, 08:33 PM
How about a Millett 4-16x56mm? I've got one on my 22-250 and it's work fine so far. My friend has one on his .308 and used it in a 1000 yard match.

benzy2
October 22, 2008, 08:40 PM
Well it depends. If you are willing to go fixed power you could get yourself into a used weaver t36 or new t24. You could also get a super sniper in 16x or 20x. There are a lot of options though and the more money you can spend the far better long range scope you can get.

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 09:04 PM
OK, I hate to do this because I hate when people on thr say "save up and spend more". However, I'm willing to play the game right now.

Let's say I have a budget of $400 - what do you recommend and why?

Now lets say I have a budget of $600 - what do you recommend and why?

Please DO NOT recommend to save up and spend a little more. $600 is my absolute maximum. Please respect that and fire away your opinions...

MachIVshooter
October 22, 2008, 09:24 PM
Does any body else agree with the above

Yes. To be a serious competitor, you need to triple you budget.

I use a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20x 44mm (in your price range) on my .220 Swift to drill praire rats out to 600 yards (have made kills as far as 780 yards). But shooting rats for fun and shooting paper competitively are two different things.

skinewmexico
October 22, 2008, 09:38 PM
I think a Bushnell 4200 or Nikon Monarch will be fine at the distances you're looking at. Won't satisfy an optic snob, but someday you may have more money. Just remember, to see the target, you'll need the fine reticule. The lines in most mildots are too big, they cover an F-Class target at 500.

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 09:43 PM
I'm not looking to be a "serious competitor". I'm looking at getting into long-range shooting... hitting some steel out at the mentioned ranges and putting some decent groups together on paper.

texas chase
October 22, 2008, 09:45 PM
Thank you skinewmexico. That's the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

Shawnee
October 22, 2008, 09:47 PM
Hi TexasChase...

Take a look at this one...


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=113966464


It's well within your budget, is good quality, has a lifetime guarantee and will get you started.

Good Luck !
:cool:

MIL-DOT
October 22, 2008, 09:49 PM
Had I known you'd upped your max to $600, I also would have recommended a 4200 Elite, over the 3200. In fact that's what I was looking at before I saw thr prices were too high.
To answer your earlier question, I recommend the Bushnell Elites becasue they're very good scopes for the money, Japanese manufactured, with an excellent lifetime warranty. I've purchased two, and really like them.
The 4200's are VERY well spoken of, and have FULLY multi-coated lenses.
Hard to beat a 4200 without spending a lot more money.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-13202-185-bushnell-4-16x40-elite-4200-rifle-scope.aspx

P.S. skinewmxico's right about the thin reticle, though I,and others considerably more qualified than me, like the mil-dot for long range shots, not to mention it's hold-over shot,and range-estimating value.

atlanticfire
October 22, 2008, 09:49 PM
Bushnell Elite 4200 8x32x40 has been working for me with long range shooting. And its not to expensive!

Jim Watson
October 22, 2008, 09:56 PM
Budget for a long range scope base with 20-30 MOA taper. Very few scopes have enough elevation to zero farther than 600 yards, maybe 800 yards for a very flat 7mm load.

benzy2
October 22, 2008, 09:59 PM
$600 could get you a Leupold 30x40 FX-III, Sightron 6.5-20x50 SII Big Sky or 36x42 SII Big Sky, the weavers mentioned before, a few of the Nikon Monarchs, Bushnell Elite 4200 in 6-24 or 8-32, along with a few more nice options.

The question really comes down to what you want to do with the rifle. When it comes to long range shooting some people shoot amazing groups with only a 20x scope. Then again others bump up to 50x and never come down from that. I personally don't see the point in a paper punching long range scope that is anything-20x magnification. You will never dial below 20x when shooting long range. When mirage gets thick people tend to back down to mid 20s-low 30s. Others stay at 40-50x. If you think this scope will ever go on a hunting rifle then something in say 6.5-20 will be a decent dual purpose scope. Still that said if all you are doing is say shooting at 1000 yards why would you bother with something that only goes from 6.5 that you will NEVER use to 20x which is on the low end of the spectrum? Some people don't like fixed zoom scopes as they just can't shoot well with heavy mirage and high magnification. Even then there are a few decent 8-32 or 34x scopes out there in your price range that I think will be much better long range PAPER punching scopes.

texas chase
October 23, 2008, 10:50 AM
benzy,

I would love to be able to shoot this rifle anywhere from 200 to 1000 yards. I know this is a hard bill to fill but I think it can be done. Also, I'll probably be using it for 300 - 800 primarily. With that being said, any other opinions?

gvnwst
October 23, 2008, 11:52 AM
well, military sinpers hit targets to 1,000yd with a 10 power scope, so that proves it can be done with a lower power scope. Most of the scopes before mentioned, nikon monarch, bushnell elites, ect are good scopes. Another in the $600 range (actually, it is $500) that i really like is the Horus Hawk scope. 12x top end, and a 50mm obj lens. u are wanting to.great all around scope, and i use it for almost exactly the same purposes as you are wanting to.

http://www.horusvision.com/hawk.php

benzy2
October 23, 2008, 12:16 PM
Military snipers also have to hit moving targets, quickly move from one target to another, be ready to hit those moving targets as close or far away as it requires, etc. They aren't shooting a fixed target and they don't have all day to setup from shot to shot or from target to target.

Like I said if I had ANY plans to shoot anything living with it or anything moving then I would seriously consider something in the 6.5-20 range as you still can dial down enough to shoot things that are either moving or those that you have to move one to another to and 20x is still high enough to be on the low end of long range paper shooting magnification. It makes a very good dual purpose scope.

But when you look at what the guys in F-class shooting are using you don't see many 10x scopes. You see a ton that are in the 20x-50x range. You don't NEED to get a higher magnification but if you want to punch the smallest groups possible at long range it helps. Even the guys shooting 50 yard rimfire matches use 36-50x scopes. Nothing wrong with the 6.5-20 and with good clear glass it will do far better than a ugly glass at a huge power.

Bright and crisp are the real first thoughts. If you can't see what you are aiming at it doesn't matter how magnified it is. Get what you like though. If you think the scope ever may be swapped to a different rifle that will either be a longer range hunting rifle or one you plan on shooting multiple targets with then the 6.5-20 is really a great go to magnification range. If you really only plan on punching paper at medium to long ranges I would get all the glass I could.

You can figure out what magnification you want. As far as brands go you can't go wrong with Leupold, Sightron, Weaver, Burris black diamonds, bushnell 4200 or if the budget is tight 3200, Nikon Monarchs or buckmasters if the money is tight, and a lot more that are going to be out of your price range. As long as you stay away from China made scopes and the bottom line of all of the brands listed you should get a decent scope for the money that will be usable at longer ranges. Im sure I am forgetting a good brand or two in that price range but those are the ones that I see the most. Clearidge scopes seam to get good reviews though I know less about them. The Super sniper scopes seem to get decent reviews though a "sniper" has different needs than a paper puncher. Pick what floats your boat. Most of the decent scopes in your price range have been listed in this thread. Find the features you like most and buy it.

taliv
October 23, 2008, 12:34 PM
benzy2, he did specify "practical long range shooting" in post #3 and #7 and "possibly f-class".

benzy2
October 23, 2008, 12:37 PM
I missed the practical part. That changes a bit. Still the brands I would look at are the same. Really two different beasts. I would go with a mildot for anything I am estimating ranges and hold over quickly and I would go with a very fine crosshair for fixed shooting. I guess I would pick which way I thought I would shoot more, setup for that, and be at a little handicap on the other style.

snowpro440
October 23, 2008, 01:22 PM
i just bought an osprey 10x40x50 for my 308 and it shoots fine out to 500 meters at the ground hog shoot an it only costs 199.00, they just started selling them at the gun shows.. check them out ,they have all different recticles an zoom ,plus illuminated crosshairs,, its worth a look see..:neener:.

ParaElite
October 24, 2008, 04:05 AM
Get the Super Sniper at SWFA. It has the clicks for elevation. It has a large following and SWFA will stand by this product. It is the ultimate poor man's sniper/target rifle telescope. Don't spend tons of money on a scope when you can spend it on the firearm, magazines, ammo considering the political climate.

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 08:48 AM
The SWFA Super Sniper models look very interesting. Can anybody else chime in about these?

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 08:55 AM
On the SWFA website, they list the Super Sniper scopes "16x42 30mm". Is 42 the objective lens size? or is it 30mm? Is 16 the fixed magnification power?

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 09:04 AM
I figured it out.

taliv
October 24, 2008, 09:19 AM
that is an odd description. normally, 16x42 would mean fixed 16 power with 42mm objective. 30 probably refers to the tube diameter.

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 09:44 AM
taliv,

you're exactly right. 30mm is the tube diameter.

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 09:45 AM
Can someone tell me exactly what parallax adjustment is and why its beneficial?

Jim Watson
October 24, 2008, 10:00 AM
Scope sight parallax is a condition in which the reticle and the target are not in the same focal plane. Move your head behind the scope and the reticle appears to move around on the target. A high powered scope suitable for target shooting has an adjustment to bring the images together for the range being shot at. A hunting scope is factory set to eliminate parallax at some typical range, commonly 150 yards.

taliv
October 24, 2008, 10:11 AM
it's like looking at an analog speedometer from the driver's seat, then viewing it from the passenger's seat. the later might look a couple MPH lower because of the angle. that's parallax.

parallax adjustment, as Jim said, makes it so it looks the same no matter where you view it from, but only at a single range. (thus the adjustment for shooting at different ranges)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 24, 2008, 10:22 AM
Practical Long-range shooting

Ahhh, I was gonna recommend the Falcon T-Range for under $400 (fixed 35x45mm), but for Practical Shooting type competitions, you want a little lower power, like a fixed 10, 4-12, 4.5-14, something like that. I'd look at Nikon Buckmaster, Sightron S2, and Bushnell Elite 4200 for that magnification in that price range. I'd probably want a 44 to 50mm objective lens size, but 40-42 is ok, too.

I think I've come to the conclusion, after looking at and shooting with my three Sightron S2s I own, that they are THE best value scope I've ever dealt with. For $200-$300 or a little more, you get a scope that's as good or better than a Leupold Vari-X III. But, sadly, I'm at a loss to understand Sightron's new lineup scheme, what with the Big Sky and such - did they eliminate the S2s or what the heck is going on?

The 4.5-14x42mm Sightron S2 I have feels and looks like, and holds zero like, a $600-$800 scope and it was $200 at Academy (although this model now sells for around $385, if you can find it at all). So it would come highly recommended by me. Due to its extreme fine-tune, close-in parallax adjustment, it's the ultimate rimfire & airgun scope, bar none.

P.S. I would still also look at the other Falcons - they're suppose to be really good glass for the money, but I cannot verify this:

http://www.falconoptics.com/

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 10:42 AM
"it's like looking at an analog speedometer from the driver's seat, then viewing it from the passenger's seat. the later might look a couple MPH lower because of the angle. that's parallax.

parallax adjustment, as Jim said, makes it so it looks the same no matter where you view it from, but only at a single range. (thus the adjustment for shooting at different ranges)"

That's a great explanation.

So... the Super Sniper 10x42 w/ parallax adjustment would be alright for a beginner? The 10x seems a little low but a lot of people seem to think that it works. Any thoughts?

(Again, this is going to be a practical long-range rifle for the most part. Most shots taken from 300 - 800 yards with an occasional 1000 yd. At least, that's how it happens in my dreams anyway... :))

USSR
October 24, 2008, 10:56 AM
For the past 6 years, I've competed in 1,000 yard F Class matches. I have two rifles, and they wear the following scopes: Leupold 6.5-20x50 LR M1; and Sightron SII 6-24x42. Lately have been using the rifle wearing the Sightron more often, and have found myself turning the power down to 18 or 20 power most times to dial out some of the mirage effect that is found when using high power optics at long range. The advantage of having a variable power is immeasurable when it comes to dealing with targets at various distances, as well as contending with varying atmospheric conditions.

Don

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 11:18 AM
I see your point USSR. I'm a little skeptical about the fixed power...

James Cox
October 24, 2008, 01:08 PM
I don't know what these guys saying that 400 bucks won't get you a decent LR scope are smoking, but they're full of ....

Look at Falcon Optics.

http://www.snipercentral.com/menace4.htm

That is going to be the best option for your cash. It's a FFP scope, meaning that the reticle stays the same size in relation to the target, allowing for accurate ranging and holdovers on any power. The adjustments are accurate, and they will shoot the box. Any of these nimrods that say it won't have never used one or have a personal agenda.

Seekinsprecision.com

Glen makes any taper you want for Savage (among other) rifles, and he makes rings. Seekins is probably the highest quality stuff out there, on par with Badger Ordnance.

PM me if you have any questions, or come pose this question over at Snipershide

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 01:52 PM
James,

If the Falcon Menace 4 is as good as you say it is... it may be in the lead on my list. It looks good from my end. Any on else have experience with Falcon Optics?

Thanks again, James.

futureranger
October 24, 2008, 02:56 PM
id say with the budget you have you should look at a Millett 4.5-16x50, i had to return mine 2 times before i got a good one but i like what i have now, works great on my savage 10fp, burris also makes some great scopes for your price range give them a good looking over too, good luck with your choice

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 05:44 PM
Does anyone have any place that you know of that has the Falcon Optics scopes? More specifically the new Menace 4 with FFP. And yes, I've gone to their website and found the North American distributors. So far - no luck.

USSR
October 24, 2008, 07:03 PM
...I've gone to their website and found the North American distributors.

What country might this company's products be made in, and what kind of warrantee and customer support do they have?:uhoh:

Don

taliv
October 24, 2008, 07:22 PM
the review he linked to says china with "final assembly" in the UK

that reticle is awfully small on 4x. that's one nice thing about the mil-hash reticles instead of dots

2000Yards
October 24, 2008, 08:09 PM
If the Falcon Menace 4 is as good as you say it is... it may be in the lead on my list. It looks good from my end. Any on else have experience with Falcon Optics

Yes, I used a Falcon Menace 4-14x44FFP scope over a three-day long range rifle course. The FFP is a definite asset for rapid ranging, but overall it was disappointing. The scope has a very limited eye-relief range (I don't know what Falcon publishes, but if I wasn't EXACTLY in the right place, the image had a lot of dark fringing on the sides or just disappeared - I compared to several Leupolds that were not picky at all in this respect - looking through the scope was definitely more challenging at all magnifications). Also, despite the 44mm objective, the scope image was noticeably darker than the leupolds at 40mm. On the final day of the course the reticle completely lost correlation to windage - I was off by 6 feet at about 200 yards. We checked base and rings, they were tight (Badger Ordinance 50-MAX, IIRC), and the instructors worked with the rifle for about 15 minutes before telling me the scope was shot. I borrowed a gun to finish the course, and FWIW, the instructors told me that about half of the Falcons that come through the school fail.

To be fair, the leupolds being compared were multiples more in cost, so its not a fair comparison, but the windage problem was unnaceptable.

My $.02,
Mike

kansas45
October 24, 2008, 11:34 PM
Check out the Barska scopes. I've been shooting 600yds with a 10X40X50. Not the best glass, but not bad. It was just under $400.00 on sale.

texas chase
October 24, 2008, 11:35 PM
OK... maybe the Falcon is not the way to go.

I've been reading up on focal planes and I need some clarity. So I understand with FFP, the reticle "changes" size with magnification power so that one mil is one mil.

Now here's what I'm not clear on... for Second Focal Plane reticles, the reticle stays the same size. So how do you figure out how much each mil dot or hash mark is worth at different distances?

Like I said, I'm new to optics so I apologize if this is a dumb question. Thanks for any insight.

taliv
October 25, 2008, 09:31 AM
typically, you don't. it is only right at one magnification setting, and you just use that setting if you want to use the reticle. otherwise, you twist knobs

tbogh
October 25, 2008, 10:47 PM
don't mean to hijack, but what do you think about illuminated reticles? i've never used them myself.

popeyespappy
October 27, 2008, 09:51 PM
I've got a Super Sniper 20x42 mounted on my Remington 700 SPS tactical in 308 and I really like it. I've also got a Super Sniper 10x42 on my AR. For $300 I just don't think you can beat the Super Sniper. Clarity and light gathering are good. The turrets are at least as good as anything in price range and probably better than some that cost a lot more. Repeatability is top notch. these scopes will shoot a box over and over again.

My Savage 12 Long Range Varmint 223 wears a Bushnell elite 4200 8-32x40. Its a great scope and you can get one from Overstock.com right now for less than $500

A step down from there in price at $180 is the Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40 Tactical. My mini-14 and my 1895 both wear one of these.

texas chase
October 29, 2008, 08:38 PM
I've narrowed it down. Right now, I've got my eye on a Bushnell Elite 4200
6-24X50 and a 20x42 Super Sniper. I'm hoping for the Bushnell but I might be able to get the Super Sniper at a really good price. I'll keep everyone posted. I've learned a lot about scopes in the past week or so. Thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 29, 2008, 08:51 PM
Those Super Snipers are supposed to hold up to heavy recoil. For practical shooting, I'd go with the 16x42, but for target shooting, the 20x42.

MIL-DOT
October 29, 2008, 09:05 PM
Good choice,(especially the 4200:D) but you may want to reconsider the jumbo 50mm. objective.
From most of what my extensive research has yeilded, these are mostly a big fad,they look real cool. But they also add weight,generally cost more, and raise the scope up off your rifle, sometimes adversely affecting cheek weld. I believe most snipers use a 40mm. bell. Again, going by much of what I've only read,since my biggest bell is 42mm, but the big supposed advantage of the bigger bell/lens is better light gathering, but as I understand,this only applies at the lowest light times ( dusk/dawn) and only at FULL magnification, and even then, I believe it's not a tremendous difference.
Not trying to start a flame war with you guys that have the big objectives and dig them, just trying to give the guy as much info as possible.

texas chase
October 30, 2008, 03:02 PM
Mil Dot,

I totally understand what you're saying in regards to the 50 mm objective lens. It is very large. Thankfully, I'll have this rifle on a stock that has different size cheek pieces and some adjustability. So hopefully this won't be an issue.

One of the reasons, I like the 50 is because it comes with bigger knobs. The 42 or 40 ( I can't remember off the top of my head) seems to have smaller turrets/knobs.

By the way, I got this rifle because my dad got an AR-30 in .338 Lapua. It became his long-range rifle and I got the Savage, which I'm extremely thankful for. I got a chance to shoot the .338 a few weeks ago... and wow, that is a powerful cartridge.

Jim Watson
October 30, 2008, 03:35 PM
The biggest advantage of the 50mm objective lens TO ME is that it gives a slightly larger exit pupil and makes it easier to line up on the scope. I don't need twilight factor for low light sniping, I am just a target shooter.

I would sure like to get a look at a Konus M30 rifle scope. If it is as good a product for the money as their spotting scope, it will be something to consider for casual target shooting.

texas chase
November 6, 2008, 09:55 AM
I just bought a used Super Sniper 16x42. Looking forward to using it.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 6, 2008, 10:32 AM
On the final day of the course the reticle completely lost correlation to windage - I was off by 6 feet at about 200 yards. We checked base and rings, they were tight (Badger Ordinance 50-MAX, IIRC), and the instructors worked with the rifle for about 15 minutes before telling me the scope was shot. I borrowed a gun to finish the course, and FWIW, the instructors told me that about half of the Falcons that come through the school fail.

I'm disappointed to hear in the failure of the Falcon - I was planning to put the T-range fixed 35x45 on my as-yet-to-be-acquired Savage 12 FC-PTR. Hmmm, now I'm thinking Super Sniper 20x42.

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