Do you Carry chambered?


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Stover954rr
October 23, 2008, 08:36 AM
Hey Guys,
I was just wondering for those of you who carry chambered (I am assuming most of us), do you carry on safe, or off? If off what precautions do you take, or does your particular holster offer that makes you feel safe doing so?

Okay that is a paraphrased question from a female co-worker who has a pistol permit but doesn't carry. And who "informed" me that you can't carry with one in the chamber (which is false).

Any how, I informed her that it was legal (which she still disputed until I showed her NYS pistol laws, laws that she should have read when getting her permit), and that it wouldn't make sense to carry unchambered unless one was proficient in the israeli draw, and even then it is adding an unnecessary step in a potentially life threatening situation.

When asked what my procautions for safety was, I simply replied: "You never take your gun out of the holster unless you are disarming it/yourself, or are using it." That way it doesn't go off unless you intend for it.

I was just curious what everyone elses philosophies are, and what their answers might have been (see original questions at top).

~Stover

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PT92
October 23, 2008, 08:45 AM
I simply can not and never will understand why one would carry absent one in the pipe...? As far as the safety, I have no problem if one uses this or not (just practice with it so you will remember the safety feature when you need to utilize the gun). Personally, I carry a KT P11 most of the time and it doesn't have a safety.

-Cheers

Aran
October 23, 2008, 08:47 AM
I carry a Glock in a Serpa.

If it manages to go off, either the gun is broken, or I've done something ridiculously retarded.

cat9x
October 23, 2008, 08:48 AM
Chambered.

my seecamp always has one in the chamber

TankerCadaver
October 23, 2008, 08:50 AM
Chambered.

XD9 - it features a trigger safety and a backstrap/palm safety and my hand is connected to my brain and features proper finger control.

DC300a
October 23, 2008, 08:57 AM
Chambered---

I carry a Beretta 92G in a Bianchi holster and it has no manuel safety. It is important to remember the old saying... keep your booger picker off the band switch. :)

Robert
October 23, 2008, 09:03 AM
Chambered... otherwise I have a 2 pound door stop.
1911 Cocked with the safety on.

Phil DeGraves
October 23, 2008, 09:07 AM
Chambered, cocked and locked.

HowardCohodas
October 23, 2008, 09:13 AM
The "Israeli Draw" is problematic http://pistol-training.com/archives/183.

Stover954rr
October 23, 2008, 09:22 AM
Very cool guys,
So I see that some of you have a palm and/or trigger safety. That is a personal choice of mine. Best of both world; safety & function.

WC145
October 23, 2008, 09:23 AM
Chambered, of course.
As has been stated numerous times before, the most important safety is the one between your ears. All my handguns are DAO semi-automatics or DA revolvers, no safeties on any of them. If I don't want them to fire I don't pull the triggers.

Deanimator
October 23, 2008, 09:24 AM
What's up with this topic? This has to be AT LEAST the third time I've seen it come up somewhere in the last month.

makarovnik
October 23, 2008, 09:25 AM
If it were unlawful to carry a round in the chamber then you would have to completely empty your revolver when carrying. Most revolvers have five or more chambers. Make sense?

Walkalong
October 23, 2008, 09:28 AM
I simply can not and never will understand why one would carry absent one in the pipe...? I do sometimes. Cocked and locked when I have one up the pipe, which is most of the time.

2FNSLO
October 23, 2008, 09:40 AM
Glock 23 or 36. Always one in the pipe. Smart Carry holster. Safety on until I pull the trigger. :)

Nacho Libre
October 23, 2008, 09:44 AM
I carry cocked and locked on a 1911A1. As for DAO or DA/SA gun such as Glock or Sig, you really don't need a safety if you got a good holster for it.

ashtxsniper
October 23, 2008, 09:44 AM
Glock 22 Beretta 92 and a Kahr P40 currently. Always keep one in the pipe. Safety off hammer down on the beretta 92, the others don't have safeties.

tl1000r
October 23, 2008, 09:54 AM
Chambered. When things go bad, they can go bad quick!

Jackson7291
October 23, 2008, 10:04 AM
I carry a Wilson cocked and locked. With one in the chamber it gives me nine rounds ready to go. I would never carry a 1911 without the safety on.

The Lone Haranguer
October 23, 2008, 10:07 AM
Always. To do otherwise is nonsensical and defeats the purpose of being armed in the first place.

No modern handgun in proper working order is going to "just go off." You have to pull the trigger.

Speedo66
October 23, 2008, 10:23 AM
I can't imagine carrying it any other way.

The Bushmaster
October 23, 2008, 10:31 AM
Kimber UCC II Chambered. Cocked and locked...

SsevenN
October 23, 2008, 10:36 AM
In summer time a Kahr CW9, one in the pipe.

In fall/winter CZ 2075 RAMI, one in the pipe, hammer down, safety off.

BornAgainBullseye
October 23, 2008, 10:38 AM
I carry a 1911 and it has 1 in the chamber and hammer cocked safety on.

Eyesac
October 23, 2008, 10:51 AM
Always chambered. I'll be the first to say that I was uncomfortable w/ it in the beginning, but after about 2 days of it I was fine...

TIMC
October 23, 2008, 10:58 AM
Chambered on everything.
Cocked and locked on my 1911's
My little Para LDA, Sig P-226 and P-220 run hammer down.

blo0dyhatchet
October 23, 2008, 11:00 AM
One in the chamber, de-cocked, and safety on for me.

scottgun
October 23, 2008, 11:01 AM
Always carry with one in the chamber, it's an expensive paper weight otherwise. I carry a Glock or Kel Tec, neither have an external safety. The trigger is the the safety. The original point and click interface. Always keep the gun in a holster unless ready to use.

The first rule of firearms is the always treat a gun as if its loaded. So it makes sense to actually have it loaded in the event that it is needed. An attacker won't give you the extra couple of seconds to ready your firearm, it needs to be deployed as quickly as possible.

WC145
October 23, 2008, 11:13 AM
You know, it's always struck me funny that everybody hunts with a round chambered (safety on) but it's a big question when carrying a handgun for defense.
If you're going to carry a gun, carry it ready to use otherwise don't bother.

BBQLS1
October 23, 2008, 11:17 AM
1911 cocked and locked
Kahr CW9 with one in the chamber
.357 Mag or .38 Special all chambers loaded.

Ben86
October 23, 2008, 11:24 AM
My Glock stays loaded and ready to rock when on me. It is kept in check by safe handling.

kostner
October 23, 2008, 11:44 AM
1911 cocked and locked.
Glock 36 one in chamber.
SW 442 all chambers loaded.

Vern Humphrey
October 23, 2008, 12:00 PM
I was just wondering for those of you who carry chambered (I am assuming most of us), do you carry on safe, or off? If off what precautions do you take, or does your particular holster offer that makes you feel safe doing so?
The M1911 can be carried in Condition 1 in any reasonable holster. However, I designed a holster with a cam or button, which forces the safety lock into the engaged position (should you holster the gun unlocked) and keeps it locked while in the holster.

http://www.paul.desertskyone.com/vern/iwb_instructions.htm

Bogow
October 23, 2008, 12:24 PM
I agree that one should carry with a round in the pipe or why bother. That being said, I would love to carry my Kimber Pro Raptor cocked and locked but the problem I am having is that inevitably at some point during the day I find that the safety has become disengaged. I have tried 2 different Galco holsters, the F.L.E.T.C.H. High Ride belt holster and the Concealable belt holster and have experienced the safety disengaging problem with both.
My question is do I need to try yet another holster or is it something to do with the size and shape of the safety lever on this particular gun?

Vern Humphrey
October 23, 2008, 12:29 PM
Yes, you need a different holster. Holsters with safety straps -- and the Galco Fletch is a horrible example -- tend to position the snaps where they bear on the safety lock, and body movement can disengage the safety.

If you want to keep using the Galco Fletch, cut off the strap and remove the snap.

Harley Quinn
October 23, 2008, 12:29 PM
I carry "none" in the chamber.

The "Israeli Draw" is problematic http://pistol-training.com/archives/183.

No longer a working LEO and feel it is the best way to go. I pack Glocks, many times "mexican carry" so I have opted for the "Israeli Draw"...:what:

CountGlockula
October 23, 2008, 12:34 PM
I carry a Glock, my mind and finger are my safeties.

Frank Ettin
October 23, 2008, 01:02 PM
Always with a round chambered -- either a 1911 in condition 1 or an H&K P7M8. Without a round in the chamber, if I need the gun I need both hands free to make it ready. I simply will not count on having both hands available in an emergency.

For safety I rely on a good holster that covers the trigger guard and my training. Also, on the 1911 the thumb safety is engaged, and it has a grip safety. And on the P7, the striker is not cocked unless I squeeze the front strap cocking lever.

Bogow
October 23, 2008, 01:15 PM
Thanks for your response Vern.

I suspected the safety strap as the culprit and thats why I bought the concealable belt holster without the strap. I have experienced the same problem with the safety disengaging even without the strap. Is this holster a bad choice as well?

This gun has ambi safety levers which seem to be longer than alot of 1911 safeties that I have seen. Could this be part of the problem? Anybody else out there with the Kimber Pro Raptor experiencing any of these problems?

RKBABob
October 23, 2008, 01:24 PM
I carry my revolver with 5 rounds chambered! :neener:

and no safety! :eek:

mhillsing23
October 23, 2008, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't carry any other way. (XDs by the way.)

wagoneer1019
October 23, 2008, 01:42 PM
hunting-never chamberd. otherwise yes. my made my choice when I had to call 911 at work it took me 5 trys to get out because I forgot to do the 9+911 for an out side line. I had be calling 9+ the number 5 years and under a little bit of stress forgot. if the same thing happend when I needed to have a firearm redy I would be dead

Superlite27
October 23, 2008, 01:45 PM
Train as you fight. If you need to use your weapon, you will need to have one in the pipe, right? So why carry in a method that isn't how you are going to use it?

If you get used to carrying without one in the chamber, your mind will develop "muscle memory" of "there's not one in the pipe"....DANGEROUS HABIT.

If you ALWAYS carry one in the pipe, your mind will always revert to "HEY! There's one in the pipe!"....Which should be the way every firearm is treated. (Plus, it is actually the way it needs to be in order to be used.)

ALWAYS CARRY CHAMBERED. If you're smart enough to safely carry a firearm, you're smart enough to safely carry one ready to use. If you're reckless, you probably shouldn't carry to begin with. Plus, if you ND and die, you'll help the rest of humanity by thinning out the gene pool. HA! :D JUST KIDDING!

Vern Humphrey
October 23, 2008, 01:48 PM
This gun has ambi safety levers which seem to be longer than alot of 1911 safeties that I have seen. Could this be part of the problem?

That could be -- I don't use ambi safties for that reason. But you can make up one of my holsters -- it will cost considerably less than a custom holster -- and it will cure the problem.

Elmer
October 23, 2008, 02:12 PM
Always comforting to see how this group "gets it". I suspect the number of people who don't have one chambered would be a lot higher among the general, un-knowledgeable public.

Only time I could imagine carrying in condition three would be if I was carrying one of my 100 year old autos, (Browning 1908, Colt 1903, etc.), and then just because of the metallurgy concerns that something could break and let go.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
October 23, 2008, 02:16 PM
always chambered, S&W Sigma .40cal, no safety, Rossi .357 snubbie, 6 chambered no safety, beretta M948 .22LR chambered safety on hammer cocked.

Stover954rr
October 23, 2008, 03:42 PM
So is anyone here talking Condition-0 with a gun that doesn't have a trigger or palm safety? That isn't a revolver.

Justin
October 23, 2008, 03:45 PM
Generally, if you carry with an empty chamber you have a deficiency somewhere; either in your training, holster, or the gun you've chosen to carry.

Liberty1776
October 23, 2008, 03:55 PM
yup. I'm with PT92 -- I almost always carry my KT P11 - always with a round chambered. My other carry gun is also a DA. It doesn't go bang unless I pull the trigger. (that's my safety -it works for me...)

Valkman
October 23, 2008, 03:57 PM
My trusty Kimber that's on my hip is cocked and locked. :)

Generally, if you carry with an empty chamber you have a deficiency somewhere; either in your training, holster, or the gun you've chosen to carry.

Wise words.

PressCheck
October 23, 2008, 04:18 PM
Of course I do!

CHEVELLE427
October 23, 2008, 04:22 PM
Chambered.

stevemis
October 23, 2008, 04:26 PM
A chambered, cocked and locked Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail is on my right hip right now... the way JMB intended.

ants
October 23, 2008, 04:33 PM
Clearly, bad guys always carry with a round in the chamber.

Treo
October 23, 2008, 04:39 PM
Oh Hell no! carrying a round in the chamber is dangerous. Hell why would you even want to carry a gun unless you're looking for a fight? :D

MT GUNNY
October 23, 2008, 04:47 PM
The general Consensus is you carry unchamberd until you get comfortable with Condition 1.
Witch usually takes about a week.

Personally I Carry a 1911 in Condition 1

ShooterMcGavin
October 23, 2008, 05:28 PM
I will be the "odd man out" here and say that I carry without a round chambered. It's just better that way! I don't have to think as much, because the gun is not ready to fire, and it doesn't matter much if I point the gun at friends or family. I can just tell them not to worry because it's not loaded. That reassurance calms them down A LOT! In addition to those benefits, I can use the gun as an excellent bludgeoning or impact tool. The gun, without a round chambered, makes for the perfect door-stop and paper weight too!

I thought THR was a pretty intelligent group of people, so I am shocked to discover that I am the ONLY one to recognize these diverse implementations of a handgun!









No, I am not serious :neener: All my carry guns are carried with a round in the chamber. None have manual safeties.

Andy-Y
October 23, 2008, 08:11 PM
hunting-never chamberd

Have to say I was surprised to read this. As soon as I am out of the truck when hunting, my weapon (usually a remmy 870) is cocked, and locked. I've shot quite a few deer on the way to my stand. Also when doing any hunting (rabbits, squirrel, grouse, predator, etc.), my weapon is chambered with the safety on unless taking a shot.

Back on the original question, my SD gun is a g17, cocked and..well...ready to rock :). It is carried in a Don Hume IWB and stays in the holster unless it is firing or being cleaned.

devildog66
October 23, 2008, 08:56 PM
Condition 1 without exception. Shooter McG, that is a great post regarding the value of a handgun without a round in the chamber!

Huddog
October 23, 2008, 09:06 PM
Chambered, safety on if it has one.

Kind of Blued
October 23, 2008, 11:33 PM
I don't think there is a gun in existence that was meant to be carried empty.

With every gun made there is a correct condition for carry. A few have more than one, but none of them entail carrying it with an empty chamber.

I've carried quite a few different guns, all were carried as intended; part of that entailed having one in the pipe.

WVMountainBoy
October 24, 2008, 01:28 AM
With my PT1911 I carry loaded chamber, lowered hammer, safety off. With my XD-Sub40 I have one chambered.

AlaskaErik
October 24, 2008, 05:01 AM
Chambered, with the safety, if there is one, off. That's why I'll never own a 1911 or anything else that needs to be locked when cocked.

acn001
October 24, 2008, 07:42 AM
Chambered, cocked and locked.

I like that...

moooose102
October 24, 2008, 09:21 AM
YES! :evil:if i actually NEED my firearm, there probably will not be time to rack it, and in some cases, it could be a bad thing (giving awat you position, or even the fact you are there). the element of suprise can be very effective. it has been employed by soldiers for hundreds of years.:D

Invisible Swordsman
October 24, 2008, 12:09 PM
Chambered and holstered.

Harley Quinn
October 24, 2008, 12:24 PM
Generally, if you carry with an empty chamber you have a deficiency somewhere; either in your training, holster, or the gun you've chosen to carry.

No, that is wrong, similar to a knife. It has to be opened to be used. :what:

I am retired LEO, seen lots of accidentals. Biggest problem is in the handler true. Second problem is in the handler:uhoh: Training is the key.

I have many shooters around and none of them have a chamber full... None. No reason for it.

We have had this discussion many times. I am one of a few who carry empty chamber...When I was in the service, had to carry "empty chamber" 1911 A1.

I carried loaded all the time when a LEO and had to be very careful where I put my duty guns (home). There was an accidental just awhile ago at a sheriffs home with a Sig, killed his son. One in the chamber :(

Rossshady120
October 24, 2008, 12:29 PM
and to think i get called out on a redflag for not keeping one in the chamber. i don't carry so there no reason but now i allways keep one in the chamber i just obey the dry fire rule. my DA is so strong that i can literally play with the trigger with one in the chamber and it wil not go off. its not a matter of keeping one in the chamber but the safety. as i recall glocks do not have magazine disconnecters which mean bad guys get the gun you drop the mag still one in the chamber boom your dead. or better yet how about you get a firestorm and just keep one in the chamber and take out the clip. done is done and so is this topic and thread

SigP229R
October 24, 2008, 12:51 PM
I carry a Sig P229 and as we all know there is NO safety on these weapons just a decocker so yes I carry one in the pipe, also when carrying my 5903 and 92f one in pipe and safety off.My reasoning here is just that any bad guy you meet is going to be ready to go, chambered and safety off and just that split second disengaging the safety could get you killed. Just my 2 cents.

RKBABob
October 24, 2008, 01:07 PM
If its in a holster, there is a round chambered.

If its ever taken out of the holster, the chambered round is going to be "removed" one way or another.:uhoh:

All un-holstered firearms are un-loaded, but checked each time they'e picked up anyway.

My guns are never stored in a holster.

erikanderson
October 24, 2008, 01:11 PM
My guns and my fire extinguishers are always loaded. They are both useless any other way. :)

mljdeckard
October 24, 2008, 02:42 PM
All of your reasoning seems sound to me. (Except maybe living in NY. :)

Byron Quick
October 24, 2008, 03:06 PM
One in the chamber.

I don't have a holster for it yet but I just bought a replica of a Colt SAA revolver. I keep the hammer down on an empty chamber with it. But then, it'll never be my carry gun.

GEM
October 24, 2008, 04:16 PM
I carry my Glock unchambered with a clip that is downloaded in a fanny pack that has a combination lock on it. I also put a manual safety on it and only load the clip with an alternating load of blanks and rubber bullets.

or

Maybe not. :D

I guess I could carry my 1911 disassembled?

Vern Humphrey
October 24, 2008, 04:21 PM
I carry a workbench, tool box and enough steel to make myself an M1911 if I need one in a hurry.:neener:

Kentucky Kernel
October 24, 2008, 04:38 PM
chambered x 5

(SW 38 revolver!)

357sigRog
October 24, 2008, 06:01 PM
I carry a Glock chambered inside a good holster. Sometimes I carry a Bersa with it chambered and the safety on.

mgregg85
October 24, 2008, 06:09 PM
"do you carry chambered?"
Is there any other way?:neener:

I carry my P3AT chambered and topped off in my right front pocket without a holster(nothing else goes in that pocket, ever) and IWB with a holster. It doesn't have a safety of course but the long, heavy DAO trigger pull functions as a safety.

When I carry my XD45 it is chambered and topped off and it sits inside of a leather IWB holster or a SERPA paddle holster.

76shuvlinoff
October 24, 2008, 08:55 PM
In my home the semi-autos, the pump and the levers are loaded but have an empty chamber, the SA wheelie is loaded, hammer down. On my person my XD cc has a full mag and a round chambered.

Stevie-Ray
October 24, 2008, 10:54 PM
And cocked and locked

mauiglide
October 24, 2008, 10:58 PM
I can't CC here in Hawaii (home defense only) but all my handguns are loaded with one in the chamber. Just point and shoot.

WeThePeople
October 24, 2008, 11:21 PM
Chambered EXCEPT if I'm carrying my Sigma (no safety) around my kids. As such, I have only once carried my Sigma around my kids!

Famine
October 25, 2008, 12:09 AM
Chambered...but I'll be honest here for a moment...when I wear one pointing at my junk...I sometimes think twice.:eek:

Kind of Blued
October 25, 2008, 01:51 AM
I have many shooters around and none of them have a chamber full... None. No reason for it.

I would bet that the reason for it is a combination of 1) Lack of training, 2) Failure to understand how their weapons operate, 3) Irrational fear that their firearm will discharge on its own free will, 4) Possible unwillingness to use their weapon if it is truly needed.

We have had this discussion many times. I am one of a few who carry empty chamber...When I was in the service, had to carry "empty chamber" 1911 A1.

The U.S. Military made you carry an unloaded gun?!?!

I carried loaded all the time when a LEO and had to be very careful where I put my duty guns (home).

Yes, that is true. You need to be careful with guns, however, it doesn't matter if they are loaded, unloaded, or somewhere inbetween.

There was an accidental just awhile ago at a sheriffs home with a Sig, killed his son. One in the chamber

The problem here is not that the chamber was loaded. The problem is that a gun was pointed at a man's son and the trigger was pulled. This is what the gun is supposed to do.

jjohnson
October 25, 2008, 11:10 AM
I treat every firearm like it's loaded. And mine (when carried) always are.

I simply see no point in doing otherwise. I pray that I'll never have to even unholster a loaded firearm in a CCW case - honest - but if I do, it will be ready.

The overriding thought there is if you're drawing a weapon, it is because you are already pretty sure you just may have to use it. When you draw is no time to have to take extra steps to actually load. My guess is that I'd be fairly excited at that point - and I wouldn't want to lose the critical second or so it would take to make ready.

Harley Quinn
October 25, 2008, 01:24 PM
Kind of Blued,

You are humorous, if not very sad :uhoh: You want to pick apart the post I made about carring a chamber empty LOL.. About the pistol that killed the son is he was the one who pulled the trigger in the house and there was no reason for it to be loaded and sitting on a table...None...

I have explained my position and explained my background, I read your profile, sorry you are not impressing me:what:

Regards

Frank Ettin
October 25, 2008, 02:10 PM
Harley,

I'll agree that a loaded gun (or any gun -- and in any case "All guns are always loaded") shouldn't be sitting around on a table unattended.

But most of us see a reason to keep a round in the chamber of a gun being carried for possible use for self defense. If a gun is being carried for self defense, there is some possibility it will be needed quickly and that one will not have both hands free to rack the slide. That's certainly my view and how I've been trained.

Of course if one is going to carry a loaded gun around for self defense, it's his responsibility to get appropriate training and to manage the gun properly and safely. If you don't want to carry a round in the chamber, that's your business. And if you see no reason to have a round chambered, that's your opinion; and it is not shared by many, very well trained people.

Bingo1
October 25, 2008, 05:21 PM
Shooting a person is a serious thing. Take it seriuos. (IE saving your or somone's life) Empty chamber is fear of your own ability. Get better. Get confident. Or put it away.

Harley Quinn
October 25, 2008, 05:25 PM
Fiddletown,

I respect your position also. Training is important. The Israeli training is one I like, as I mentioned before. Yea everyone is combat ready:what::rolleyes:

Here is a good thread and information, similar flake responses from similar folks LOL...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231972

Bingo, I read your profile also. Until you post one, I'll just have to laugh at what you are saying. I believe it is actually just the opposite of your claim ;)


Regards

Byron Quick
October 25, 2008, 05:30 PM
Carry a handgun with an empty chamber is your choice to make.

However, if I was going to do it, I'd take a long and hard look at how the Israelis train to do that very thing. Their training to draw that handgun, cycle the slide,and get it into the fight is intense.

If you don't intend to train that intensively in order to get your handgun into the fight then you might want to think through your decision again.

Harley Quinn
October 25, 2008, 05:45 PM
When LEO we had shotguns and never a round was in the chamber until you needed it. The thing was and is, the firearm you carried or several of them were always at the ready. And yea, when in the Corps brig chasing and being on the gate you had the Mags loaded, but none in the chamber...

This is interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OqJtSn4Pk

Long time ago but at that time that was policy. Been in many countries carring and none in the chamber. Guess it all is in what you prefer and your training. Yes, I train in drawing and loading in one smooth motion. I have a much different attitude, when I was LEO It was not a "cold hard self defense" attitude it was a "protect and serve" mentality... If you can relate fine if not that is ok also:uhoh:

Regards

Byron Quick
October 25, 2008, 07:02 PM
I've been on guard duty over many a facility on Army bases with no loaded magazines in my weapon and no loaded magazines on my person. Didn't even have a bayonet to stick on the end of it.

Here in the States, though. I've been deployed in a disaster area, supposedly to prevent looting in the same condition-no ammunition. Hell, I didn't even see any crates of ammunition in the convoy. Now, this was back in the mid seventies so SOP could be very different today or even a few years after the mid seventies.

RockyMtnTactical
October 25, 2008, 07:31 PM
I carry chambered unless the trigger is exposed...

Big Daddy Grim
October 25, 2008, 07:37 PM
M&P Compact chambered if I need it I don't want to take time to rack it.
No safety but my own practice with it.

revolverman357
October 25, 2008, 08:00 PM
Do you Carry chambered?

Yes.

76shuvlinoff
October 25, 2008, 08:22 PM
As I stated earlier not all my firearms have a round chambered but I carry chambered.

I don't think ridiculing those that don't carry hot is the way to win hearts and minds. We are a pretty tolerant bunch when it comes to "What to carry?" The answer is usually "What you can shoot well with." We all know carrying anything is better than a trying to have a pillow fight with an assailant. On the same note if someone chooses to carry their weapon with an empty chamber and they know how to quickly reverse that situation then hey, at least they're carrying and they do have that much of an edge especially if it only improves their day to day life and they walk with confidence through it..

.02

salthouse
October 25, 2008, 08:23 PM
I carry a p3at in the summer WITHOUT one in the pipe. I practice draw and rack. I'm not comfortable (yet) with one in the pipe. "Man's got to know his limitations"

WNC Seabee
October 25, 2008, 08:40 PM
This is a primary reason I went with the XD for my normal carry gun. The inherent safeties sold me.

If I'm not carrying the XD, then it's a revolver.

akanotken
October 25, 2008, 11:43 PM
First: Sometimes kids pull the trigger when I pass my gun around the classroom.:evil:
Second: My training is from tv and movies. This means when I'm about to get serious I need to rack the slide ... and I don't want to mess the moment up with a live round flying out. :cool:
Third: I don't want to scare those around me with a hammer locked back when I OC. :what:
Fourth: Lazy.:(

Ok, I'm kidding. On at least 3 of the 4 :) Sometimes if it's a quick trip I won't load all the way up.

But those who see things in black and white are missing some beautiful grey shades. What I mean is .. to equate empty chamber with no gun is just silly. Think about the hero scenarios ... shooter in the mall, damsel in distress, front door of house kicked in when you get home, etc. None of these would really be affected by empty chambers. To be precise, an empty chamber means you are a second or two slower to life saving force.

For the record, I'm chambered 99.6842 percent of the time.

alsaqr
October 26, 2008, 08:23 AM
I carry chambered, cocked and locked. Never take an unloaded gun to a gun fight.

kolob10
October 26, 2008, 08:31 AM
Always carry cocked & locked or chambered depending on what I carry. All guns at home are chambered in a safe (grandchildren present).

CajunBass
October 26, 2008, 08:46 AM
I guess growing up with guns makes things easier. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, back when Ike was president. When we went hunting we loaded our guns. We didn't half load them. We loaded them. The sound of shotgun bolts slamming, and "click" of a double gun closing was part of the deal. A rabbit, squirrel or a deer wasn't going to wait for me/us to load our guns.

It just NEVER occured to me that I wouldn't carry a handgun ready to use.

willbrink
October 26, 2008, 10:44 AM
There's only one correct way to carry a gun for SD:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/1911.jpg

Stover954rr
October 27, 2008, 08:34 AM
All of your reasoning seems sound to me. (Except maybe living in NY.

I know, I know, And I am working on that! First Job offer I get in NH or MT, maybe even VT, I am gone! :)

slow944
October 27, 2008, 10:44 AM
Kimber 1911 cocked and locked

Harley Quinn
October 27, 2008, 12:49 PM
Willbrink, tell me about it when you have it tucked away in a mexican carry and are working undercover (CCW)...:uhoh:

:D

Vern Humphrey
October 27, 2008, 03:31 PM
Willbrink, tell me about it when you have it tucked away in a mexican carry and are working undercover (CCW)...
Every one who CCWs an M1911 carries "under cover." I've CCWed an M1911 for more than 40 years, and always carried cocked and locked -- and yes, I have carried Mexican style.

Harley Quinn
October 27, 2008, 03:55 PM
Vern,
Yes if you carry a 1911 it is fine, but as I have stated, Glock, and nothing in the chamber is my preference now. I actually carry different, at different times. It gets complicated :uhoh:...

The heavy old 1911 with a small amount of ammo in the mag, just does not get my fancy anymore. Yea I know all about being able to shoot rings around me, with the 1911, heard it all, see it so much different at the range though.

I like my little A-80 45 Astra also 9+1 or just 9...In CA there is only one I can carry with more than 10 rounds legally...17 G holds almost 3 times the amount of a 1911 in one mag...Hmmm:scrutiny: Like I said it is complicated

:)

Vern Humphrey
October 27, 2008, 04:00 PM
The heavy old 1911 with a small amount of ammo in the mag, just does not get my fancy anymore.
A while back, I was discussing the infamous magazine ban. I pointed out I could carry a Para Ordnance 14.45 with one up the spout and a loaded 14 round magazine and have 29 rounds.

Or I could carry my Kimber classic with an 8-round magazine plus one up the spout and two 10-round magazines and have 29 rounds!

LKB3rd
October 27, 2008, 05:48 PM
XD45 with a round chambered. Besides the passive safeties built into it, the most important safety is that I keep it holstered, and don't handle it unless I intend to shoot it when I am out and about. I carry it in a Milt Sparks VMII.

eng23ine
October 27, 2008, 05:53 PM
Everyday: Keltec P3AT with full mag and one in chamber(DAO,no safety)

Most days: SA micro 1911 with full mag and one on chamber, cocked and locked.

I thought it was a "man rule" that if you carried, you carried hot?

CAPTAIN MIKE
October 27, 2008, 07:07 PM
Condition One - cocked and locked.

NCSUPackman
October 27, 2008, 08:22 PM
Colt Pocket Nine: A full mag plus one in the pipe.

I was always taught to carry with one in the chamber.

If you had time to draw and chamber a round before you had to shoot, one could argue you had time to escape and wouldn't of had to shoot.

Harley Quinn
October 27, 2008, 10:12 PM
If you had time to draw and chamber a round before you had to shoot, one could argue you had time to escape and wouldn't of had to shoot.


One of the reasons LEO yell "halt police". They don't shoot, as a rule without a warning. Hmmm :uhoh:

So you figure you are going to be super quick draw and shoot um down where they stand? Sure guys;)

Frank Ettin
October 27, 2008, 10:20 PM
Harley, police don't challenge when there's no time and immediate action is necessary to defend against an immediate attack. And based on reports of defensive gun use by private citizens, a private citizen won't always have an opportunity to challenge either.

Prose
October 27, 2008, 10:40 PM
Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered Chambered

I hope you read it out loud. Then you might remember it. Cause when the suck happens that is the last thing you need to worry about.

Concerned with loading and unloading? Keep it in the holster. Can't leave it around? Get a thumbsafe.

russcoh
October 27, 2008, 11:20 PM
Kimber 4" 1911 Chambered with the safety on..

starshooter231
October 28, 2008, 12:24 AM
I carry all of my firearms with one in the chamber and the safety on. I know that when it comes time to use it I am most likely not going to have time to chamber a round.

IndianaBoy
October 28, 2008, 05:52 PM
Always one in the chamber.

Sig 225. Decocked and in a good holster... it is the ideal way to carry that particular gun.

IndianaBoy
October 28, 2008, 05:55 PM
One of the reasons LEO yell "halt police". They don't shoot, as a rule without a warning. Hmmm

So you figure you are going to be super quick draw and shoot um down where they stand? Sure guys

Or a guy passing me suddenly rushes at me and pulls out a knife.

I can either try to hold him at bay with my left hand to keep from getting stabbed/cut in the chest/neck/face... or I can use my left hand to rack the slide.

Unless you have extensively practiced using your sights and belt/boot/etc to rack the slide with one hand... a round in the chamber is the most intelligent way to carry a gun in MOST situations.

Kleanbore
October 28, 2008, 06:06 PM
From Harley Quinn:

Yes if you carry a 1911 it is fine, but as I have stated, Glock, and nothing in the chamber is my preference now.

Harley, the demonstrations I've seen (man running at you from seven yards) show that an extremely quick draw from concealment and quick first shot is necessary--less than or equal to two seconds.

Seems to me it would be extremely difficult to do that consistently if you have to cycle the slide also.

mljdeckard
October 28, 2008, 06:08 PM
Police have a much longer checklist of things they must do before they apply deadly force than I do. I'm not a cop, I don't plan on doing a cop's job. A lot of what police are required to do, for warning, escalation of force, or even DRAWING A PISTOL WHEN COMMON SENSE SAYS THEY SHOULD GRAB A RIFLE INSTEAD, is to satisfy beurocratic butt covers.

Like Indiana boy says, you cannot assume that you will have both hands to work with when things have quite suddenly become so bad that you need to use deadly force.

Harley Quinn
October 28, 2008, 07:18 PM
Yes I understand that...Why my first responses would always, be my Martial arts background, and evasion. Then if I need the shooter, so be it...By that time it is going to be what it is going to be, I will be a victim and the "legal act" will be on my side. No big deal, let them have at it.

I am not a "Natural Born Killer" so, I do what I feel is right...Always:what:

Frank Ettin
October 28, 2008, 07:23 PM
Friends, Harley has it all figured out for himself. Let's leave him be. How he handles things for himself is his business. I personally don't think highly of his approach to things, and I suspect that many of you don't either. That's okay. We're free to handle things our ways.

Hostile Amish
October 29, 2008, 12:25 AM
I carry loaded and chambered, simply because the odds of having time to chamber a round are against me.

hiker44
October 30, 2008, 07:07 PM
Always chambered. Springfield P9, hammer down, safety on.

thunder173
October 30, 2008, 07:48 PM
Always.....no point in carrying a brick in your pocket.

GEM
October 31, 2008, 11:00 AM
The truth from Ruger: http://www.ruger-firearms.com/LCPRecall/index.html

We want to remind gun users that, for maximum safety when carrying any pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. Any gun may fire if dropped or struck.

------- Seems their new guns like to do that.

Vern Humphrey
October 31, 2008, 11:06 AM
The truth from Ruger: http://www.ruger-firearms.com/LCPRecall/index.html

We want to remind gun users that, for maximum safety when carrying any pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. Any gun may fire if dropped or struck.

Which is why I carry an M1911, not a Ruger.

Larry E
October 31, 2008, 03:08 PM
What's the point in carrying if you have to put the piece into operating condition in case of need. One up the tube, and safety on with the P345, and cocked and locked with a 1911, all chambers loaded with the GP100 or Blackhawk (new model).

BothellBob
October 31, 2008, 03:16 PM
Does Revolver = 6 Yes
-BothellBob

OleCodger
November 21, 2008, 10:34 AM
Well, it looks like it's almost 50-50 on cocked/uncocked so I'll attempt to "break the tie":evil:.. I carry my PT1911 with one in chamber and cocked. Why? Because I go into rooms and forget why I'm there. Why would I want to hafta remember to: 1. Determine if there is a problem, 2. Determine what action to take, 3. Draw, 4. Chamber a round, 5 Aim, 6. Dodge the bullets whizzing by me, 7. Pull trigger, 8. Run like Hadeas!!!!!!!!! Just too much for an OleCodger to remember and to get right! However, carrying without one in the pipe would be much simpler. I would only hafta remember step #8. There is no "second place" in a gunfight!

ruger_dude
November 21, 2008, 06:03 PM
I carry my 1911s with one in the chamber, and hammer down I'm a lefty and most of them don't have an Ambi saftey that isn't an aftermarket. But my Sig 220 in its shoulder holster has a round up the spout decocked. And yes I carry both of these guns with each other.

Schofield3
November 21, 2008, 06:07 PM
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Image53.jpg

yep....

goalie
November 21, 2008, 09:10 PM
I carry with one in the chamber. If I was going to carry with the chamber empty, I wouldn't carry a gun, I'd just carry a rock.

You know, it's always struck me funny that everybody hunts with a round chambered (safety on) but it's a big question when carrying a handgun for defense.

Depending on the hunting, I don't have a round chambered. Basically, until I am in my stand and set, I have an empty chamber, and any time I am stalking in the woods, the chamber is empty. It is really an apples to oranges thing though, as the worst that happens to me because of the empty chamber in the woods is I miss a shot at a deer.

Rational Debasis
November 21, 2008, 10:29 PM
I carry mostly a G19. So of course I carry chambered.

On the rare occasions I carry a USP45, I carry chambered, hammer back and safety off. :cool:

YMMV.

Quick Karl
November 21, 2008, 10:52 PM
HK USP Compact 9MM 125g CorBons - chambered, cocked & locked, on Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday.

Springfield 1911 A1 45ACP 230g Federal HydraShocks - chambered, cocked & locked, on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday.

Dusty308223
November 21, 2008, 11:56 PM
Chambered ! XD9mm, allways! My safety is in my brain.

gitnsige
November 21, 2008, 11:58 PM
No matter what gun I carry it has one in the pipe. None of my carry guns have a manual safety and all are sa/da w/ a decocker. They are for protection and simplicity is key and carrying the same way every day should keep me from screwing up. Cocked & locked is not for me. I've tried IWB holsters but find them bulky so I carry inside the belt w/o a holster and can effectively draw without my finger slipping inside the trigger guard until it should.

zammyman
November 22, 2008, 12:18 AM
4" 1911 w/ one in the tube.. condition 1

sailortoo
November 22, 2008, 12:41 AM
Like a few other posters, YEP -each chamber always loaded, YEP - it's always on "safe" - because its a Ruger revolver! Life can be simple and safe, and even better, reliable.
sailortoo

MikePGS
November 22, 2008, 12:58 AM
If its not chambered, you might as well leave it at home.

rmmoore
November 22, 2008, 03:00 AM
I ALWAYS carry a round in the chamber. It makes no sense to carry and not be ready for that ill-fated moment, where fractions of a second can mean the difference between life and death (yours and/or his). As for the safety, it depends on which gun I'm carrying. Most often though, as in 99.99% of the time, NO I don't. For the same reason as above. 1911 sub-compact is my first choice, but sometimes I carry a Kahr or Smith snub. No safety on those, other than ME!!!!!

frogomatic
November 22, 2008, 08:15 AM
1911 commander cocked and locked in a west woods rig.

TStorm
November 22, 2008, 09:32 AM
Chambered PM 9 in Smartcarry. That is putting your money where your.... you get the picture. :)

xd .45 shooter
November 22, 2008, 01:12 PM
xd 45 one in the pipe always. like said earlirer when it goes bad it goes bad quickly. :banghead: i don't understand why people don't get this. :cuss:

denfoote
November 22, 2008, 03:38 PM
Six of them to be exact!!
No safety to flip on and off either!! :evil:

Flamer
November 22, 2008, 04:53 PM
Well thats why my personal favorite for a carry pistol is a good revolver. Always ready and able, And it also polices it's own brass which I also like.

But I do carry a S&W Sigma in 40 caliber on occasion, And I do carry one in the chamber. If you do need to use that firearm there is a strong chance that you will not have the time to rack one into the chamber. It may not be that the threat is coming at you that fast, But you yourself might not move fast enough to get one in there and get it where it needs to be.

So just practice good safety procedures and always remember you are carrying a gun that is ready to fire and treat it as such.

goon
November 22, 2008, 05:54 PM
I didn't used to but I do now.

But if you're new to carrying and don't feel comfortable carrying chambered yet, don't sweat it.
Carry with a full mag/empty chamber. Even if you do have to rack the slide you're still way better protected than the shmuck who doesn't carry at all.

anymanusa
November 22, 2008, 06:18 PM
No, that is wrong, similar to a knife. It has to be opened to be used.

I am retired LEO, seen lots of accidentals. ...

I have many shooters around and none of them have a chamber full... None. No reason for it.


There was an accidental just awhile ago at a sheriffs home with a Sig, killed his son. One in the chamber

--Whoa whoa whoa, I think this about sums it up... he's a retired LEO, so what he says is pretty much the rule...

No reason for it.


Maybe I want to have the option of running one out the barrel and I don't want to have the noise signature of racking a slide. Nah, that's unnecessary, you said so.

There was an accidental just awhile ago at a sheriffs home with a Sig, killed his son. One in the chamber

That pretty much implies that they were mishandling the gun regardless of having one in the chamber or not... 'never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy'.

I keep one in the pipe safety on in my P345. The XD45 keeps on in the pipe. My handgrip is the safety for that gun.

Cyborg
November 22, 2008, 06:38 PM
I always carry one in the pipe. The Glock 22 I carry for a duty weapon most days isn't going to go off anyway and the Uzi Eagle .40S&W is single/double action so I carry it loaded but with the de-cocker lever engaged. No way that thing is going off in that condition but I can disengage the de-cocker and squeeze off a round with only a few milliseconds difference.

I have heard, though, that when Mosaad and ISF were carrying the Jericho they Didn't carry one in the pipe but practiced racking the slide as they drew the weapon. It's easier for me to just flip the de-cocker with my thumb as I draw. I never put my finger in the trigger gaurd unless I am going to fire a round.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burying your head in the sand only makes your a** a better target.

franconialocal
November 22, 2008, 07:27 PM
I definately had to get in on this one, as me and my roomate have this "go-around" all the time. I carry a Springfield EMP (1911 style) loaded, ready to go, safety off......yes, even in single action. My roomate has a Springfield XD with all the frills (trigger safety, internal hammer, etc.) and he carries it UNLOADED despite all his safety features. I love the fact that mine has a nice Kydex holster that it fits in too, totally covering the trigger. If I ever get itchy about it, or just have to put it in my belt instead, the EMP has a grip safety and a ambidex. saftey on the frame as well if needed. Just a chance I'm willing to take I guess, as I want to get my first shot off ASAP in a situation. Sorry (just my opinion, and like I tell my roomate)...why would anyone carry any other way???

possum
November 22, 2008, 07:34 PM
i thought carrying with a round in the chamber was the onmly way to do it!:)

and no there is no manual safety on my ccw, any of them and i like it that way.

V.Oller
November 22, 2008, 07:37 PM
Yes.

The Annoyed Man
November 22, 2008, 08:58 PM
I always carry one in the pipe. I carry my Kimber UCII cocked and locked. I carry my USP Compact decocked, safety off. A carried weapon without a round in the chamber is a hammer, not a gun, when you actually need to use it.

ZombiesAhead
November 23, 2008, 03:14 PM
I clearly am not of the same mindset as a lot of people - I live in the suburbs and don't consider it necessary to keep one chambered. If I were a LEO or if I wasn't constantly handling my pistol to go from normal CC into the post office back to the car and then to the bedside table at night I might think differently. I just think the minuscule possibility of an ND trumps the even more miniscule possibility that I will need to fire RIGHT NOW.

FWIW though I do keep my Glock cocked with an empty chamber and in 2+ years of CC'ing I've never accidentally made the gun "click."

Frank Ettin
November 23, 2008, 04:39 PM
....I just think the minuscule possibility of an ND trumps the even more miniscule possibility that I will need to fire RIGHT NOW.
FWIW, what my instructors (including instructors at Gunsite. Louis Awerbuck and Massad Ayoob) have told me is that there is an extremely minuscule possibility I will need my gun at all, ever. But if I do need it, there is a very high probability that I will need to be ready to be able to fire quickly. I pretty much feel that I need to go with the information I paid them for, so when I can legally carry, I have a round in the chamber.

fase3
November 23, 2008, 05:18 PM
Round chambered-cocked and locked. Have nothing but 1911 Colts by choice!

expvideo
November 24, 2008, 09:11 AM
Of course the answer is yes.

Deanimator
November 24, 2008, 11:02 AM
I just think the minuscule possibility of an ND trumps the even more miniscule possibility that I will need to fire RIGHT NOW.
Not long ago, a guy walked into a Lane Bryant store in Tinley Park, Illinois. He herded six women into the back and shot shot them all, killing five. I've been to Tinley Park. It isn't exactly a war zone.

Just exactly how do you know WHEN you'll need to fire "RIGHT NOW" until you actually need to? When you need to, you'd better have two good hands, enough time and presence of mind. There's no guarantee that you'll have any of those. But it's your choice. Just make sure it's a rational, informed choice.

Vern Humphrey
November 24, 2008, 11:31 AM
If, when I woke up in the morning, I could say myself (and know it was true), "Today I won't have an automobile accident" I wouldn't fastern my seat belt.

If I could say, "Today I won't have a flat," I could leave my spare and jack at home that day.

If I could say, "This year my house won't burn or be hit by a tornado," I could save money by canceling my homeowner's insurance.

If I could say, "This year no one in my family will have a serious illness," I could save money by canceling my medical insurance.

But I can't foretell the future like that.

And that's why I go cocked-and-locked.

zammyman
November 24, 2008, 12:15 PM
Kimber 4", cocked and locked

texaspunk
November 24, 2008, 12:20 PM
+1 or you're unarmed IMHO.

Grizzly Adams
November 24, 2008, 12:51 PM
Cocked and Locked in an open top holster!

ZeBool
November 24, 2008, 12:59 PM
Yeah, a lot of people freak out when they see a 1911 carried C&L, not realizing that most of the glocks and other striker-fired weapons are more than likely being kept the same way.

gregormeister
November 24, 2008, 02:30 PM
Always, I mean if you had to use your firearm in SD and your sporting an empty chamber, chances are you won't get a chance to charge it.

Evela
August 29, 2009, 01:09 PM
There are so many threads on this subject that it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide:

1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.

2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.

3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.

4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.

All fine motor skills lost under stress.

All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.

Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.

Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:

Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time.

Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.

It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.

The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.

You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have.

If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.

Don't the police carry with one in the pipe?

This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.

Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe.

It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.

Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.

Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control.

On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...

coloradokevin
August 29, 2009, 01:27 PM
All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.

Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.

Respectfully, I completely disagree with you on this one... Your argument is that citizens aren't trained as well as police officers (sometimes true, sometimes not), therefore they should ADD an extra step to the process of preparing their gun for the fight. That is completely illogical in my mind.

I'm not sure what your aversion is to carrying the weapon chambered, or why you feel that it is unsafe to do so? I'm a police officer, and I carry a chambered gun 365 days per year, both on and off duty. Yes, I've trained a lot, both through work and on my own time. But, the gun is no more likely to fire on my hip than it is on anyone else's hip. Simply put, chambered or not, my Glock is not going to fire itself while it sits secured in a properly fitting holster.

Negligent discharges that result from a chambered weapon happen as a result of poor training and technique on the part of the shooter (things like drawing or holstering with the finger inside of the trigger guard, etc). Admittedly, each weapon system is different, and their are some quirks between guns that define how you should carry that particular pistol in the holster (cocked/decocked/safety on/no safety/etc). You argue that the Israeli Draw doesn't add much time, but you neglect to realize that there is no need to add any additional time to the draw while preparing to fire in a life and death situation.

For what its worth, I carry a Glock. This weapon has no external safety, but will not fire unless the trigger is moved from a forward to rearward position. As such, even without an external safety, it is completely safe to carry this gun with a loaded chamber, in a properly fitting holster.

Whatever the time may be, the Israeli Draw will add to it... Fractions of a second can get you killed in a gunfight. I just hope that any target I may engage in the future chooses to use ANY method that might slow them down, even if it is only be a fraction of a second (that's enough time for me to gain an edge, and the same can probably be said for most experienced shooters).

wrs840
August 29, 2009, 01:52 PM
I'm comfortable CCing a revolver fully loaded or an auto that is chambered, but only those that are first-shot fired with a DA trigger-pull, so that's the kind I CC. Cocked and locked I just can't get comfortable with, as I'm not OK with something that is ready to fire with a light trigger pull, as would be the case if the lock was jostled into the "unlocked" position while carrying. Then I'm CCing as if it was a cocked revolver, which I wouldn't do either.

Does this make any sense?

Les

kanook
August 29, 2009, 02:39 PM
Please look to find that the Isreali mode of carry has caught up with modern times. I am sorry to say that they now carry with one in the pipe.

Some people are dangerous with a gun wether it is loaded or not. If you choose to carry unloaded, good for you. If you carry with one in the pipe, good for you.

AirForceShooter
August 29, 2009, 02:47 PM
1911 Condition ZERO
Bersa. One in the pipe, hammer down DA trigger, safety off.

They're both just like Glocks that way.

AFS

GIMakarov
August 29, 2009, 02:52 PM
Cocked. Locked. Ready to Rock.

Training Training Training. This isnt hollywood.
You have to practice firearm safety, discipline and combat techniques.
Even then there is a chance that you probably will die. =)
Practice and training doesn't make you a shooter although it can help alot.

el gato
August 29, 2009, 02:58 PM
In that I may need my none firing hand to slow an attacker while gaining access to my hardware. I always carry in condition 1, (i.e. cocked and locked, safety on)

Frank Ettin
August 29, 2009, 03:09 PM
...it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide...Let's examine some of your so called "facts."

...The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw....And you still need two hands.

...If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation.....How do you know and on what bases do you claim that? At Gunsite, par was two rounds center of mass from leather in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards -- approximately the time it takes an assailant to cover those 7 yards with a contact weapon. Your 0.3 seconds is a 20% increase in your time and can make the difference between getting your hits and being overrun, even with moving back (as we've been taught). And you still need two hands.

...The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, ....But you still need two hands.

...An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw.....On what do you base this supposition? Sweeping off the safety (especially with a 1911) is done while bringing the gun onto the target. It adds absolutely no time.

...An external safety...requires fine motor skills,...ON what do you base this supposition? In fact, it does not. Sweeping off the safety is not a fine motor skill.

... a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety....And on what do you base this supposition? This is a matter of training and practice. The Israeli draw also requires considerable training and practice. Do you suggest that someone will train and practice enough to master the Israeli draw but not enough to master management of a safety? And the Israeli draw still need two hands.

As has been previously noted, the major schools and trainers (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, Chapman Academy, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, etc.) teach carrying with a round chambered. Evela, where did you get your training?

And BTW, did I mention that the Israeli draw requires two hands? What are you supposed to do if you don't have two hands available?

ny32182
August 29, 2009, 03:11 PM
Glock, one in the chamber. This is what I've settled on, because I do believe strongly in the KISS approach being best under stress. I don't want to mess with extra steps like safetys, or racking slides, or anything else that can go wrong when under stress. The consistent trigger pull is another factor in the KISS philosophy, removing the potential complication of a DA/SA transition. I like the other physical aspects of the Glock platform, which make for a very good carry pistol... so that is now what I use.

nalioth
August 29, 2009, 03:29 PM
I http://www.novarata.net/images/heart1414.gif zombie threads.

(not really - bumping dead threads is discourteous. Start a new one referencing the old one [if the subject material hasn't been covered already *cough*])

420Stainless
August 29, 2009, 03:38 PM
If it has a safety, I keep it on until preparing to fire.

Boba Fett
August 29, 2009, 04:01 PM
Posted by Evela with my reply comments in bold red:

There are so many threads on this subject that it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide:

1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.

2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.

3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.
Yeah...because they've practiced and practiced and developed muscle memory.
4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.
Not really and besides...my pistol doesn't have an external safety. It is simply point and shoot or don't point and shoot. Kind of like a revolver.

All fine motor skills lost under stress.

And racking the chamber doesn't require fine motor skill? It certainly isn't any more difficult for most of us than racking a slide would be. It is actually less difficult to switch off a safety considering it requires less range of motion and less strength to operate

All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.

Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what? :confused: If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??
Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.

Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:


Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time.
Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.

Ok...and what if you don't have your other hand free? This requires 2 hands. There are countless reasons you might not have a free hand. Yet I could still draw and shoot...but not if it isn't CHAMBERED. And allow me to quote the ENTIRE part of my post you chopped...the part about potential jamming while racking the slide...
1. Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time. Add into the equation the potential problems you may have loading (i.e. jamming) during the rush and the time factor goes up exponentially.


It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.
Again...loss of motor skill = chambering a round? What?? :confused: If there is a loss of motor skill, why would I want to worry about chambering a round??

The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.

Based on what? According to whom? If you are basing it on people, like law enforcement, who have TRAINED as you so often said, then how are we supposed to be so good at this if we haven't developed the muscle memory?

You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have.
If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.

I agree...and in your method, you'll die without one in the chamber...kind of requires a certain amount of motor skill to rack it back last time I was at the range


Don't the police carry with one in the pipe?
This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.

Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what? :confused: If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??



Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe.
It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.

Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.


A safety is a detriment...for whom? How is it any more or less of a detriment than not having one chambered?

Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control.
On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...



Thanks for not including my ENTIRE quote and cutting them up to suite your fake facts. You should be banned for this IMHO




WTH Evela!?! Your selection chopping of my quote to suite your needs is simply low. And even lower since you quoted me from a DIFFERENT THREAD!

I'm amazed...you actually used a quote from a DIFFERENT THREAD. Did you go around digging up all threads that talk about carrying chambered??


And your "facts" don't meet simple reason. They are opinion. Now, allow me to quote my entire post from this thread you grossly chop quoted:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450820&page=2

Most certainly carry one in the pipe.

To quote the movie Sleuth:
"Is that loaded?"
"Of course, what would be the use of it otherwise?"

1. Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time. Add into the equation the potential problems you may have loading (i.e. jamming) during the rush and the time factor goes up exponentially.
2. You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have. Regardless of the arguments (stupid arguments IMHO) people have for not needing more than X number of bullets, why not carry the number your firearm can hold?
3. Don't the police carry with one in the pipe? If any police here carry without one in the pipe while on duty, please let us know where you work so I can make sure I don't live there.
4. Perhaps the best reason, do you feel lucky? I know I don't, so I carry one in the chamber. If you feel like you're that fast, that good, and that lucky that you don't need to carry one in the pipe, I recommend you visit Vegas with your entire life's savings. Put it all on number 7 black at the roulette table.


Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe." For those people, I suggest you sell your guns for your safety and ours. Tasers and pepper spray may be more suited to your level of ability.

Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control. One in the pipe is a factor I can control.

conw
August 29, 2009, 04:10 PM
nalioth wrote:

(not really - bumping dead threads is discourteous. Start a new one referencing the old one [if the subject material hasn't been covered already *cough*])

In terms of bandwidth and just plain common sense, I don't see how this is possible. It's always discourteous to reply with a semi-unrelated question in an old or new thread, but IMO it's rude when people get all uptight about "necro-bumping" or whatever you want to call it. If you don't want to revisit an old thread, move right along.

Seemingly it's the same people doing that who respond to the "new one" saying "Use the search function." It's a forum, not a library. Opinions can change, and sometimes new-old threads are productive.

Also, virii is not a word. :evil:

doc2rn
August 29, 2009, 04:23 PM
Sig 232 with one in the pipe. It has a decocker, no safety, but I am proficient with keepin my booger picker off the bang switch. Oh and I carry it in a Fobus.

I now return you to your discourse.

Deltaboy
August 29, 2009, 08:20 PM
Heck YES!:banghead::banghead: You can't shoot anything with an EMPTY Chamber!:banghead:

billybob44
August 29, 2009, 09:01 PM
It would take a moron to carry a semi-auto pistol without one in the pipe. The movies, where the guy always chambers a round just before he shoots is just that==for the movies ONLY!!!:cuss:

Evela
August 29, 2009, 10:11 PM
Typical. I just love the way you guys parse me selectively and ignore some very important facts. Two can play this game...

"And racking the chamber doesn't require fine motor skill?

No. It's a gross motor skill. Fiddling with safeties, decockers, mag releases and slide releases are fine skills. Glock didn't deliver most of their guns with an extended release since it was assumed that racking (a gross skill) would be a preferred method over activating a slide release (better called a slide lock), a FINE motor skill.

"Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what?"

That's exactly right. LE is trained to carry professionally and are better equipped to take the risks. Most CCW users have never been in a firefight, and will suffer much more stress. Fine motor skills are the first to go. Read Ayoob for details.

"It is actually less difficult to switch off a safety considering it requires less range of motion and less strength to operate."

Nope, you're just plain wrong. Switching off a safety - a fine motor skill - will be difficult, confusing and impossible for most users facing death for the first time.

"If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??"

You really need to improve your reading skills. I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.

"Ok...and what if you don't have your other hand free? This requires 2 hands."

This is called arguing by exception. Apparently you're willing to trade thousands of opportunities for AD/UD's (called daily handling) for the extremely rare likelihood that you'll have to actually shoot another human being, to be compounded by the even rarer likelihood that you have only one hand to work with. Is that about it?

Fact is, it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training. Second, if you have less than say 0.2 or 0.3 seconds (you really do need to actually read my posts), you're probably either in, or about to be in hand-to-hand confrontation. A situation in which your primary goal is to escape, so that you CAN draw. Got that?

And since you seem to really dig exceptions, how bout the fact that being disarmed and shot is another real and common risk. Bet you'd appreciate the BG having to fumble trying to figure out why your unchambered gun won't fire. Cause if it was chambered, you'd be joining Teddy Kennedy right then.

"Again...loss of motor skill = chambering a round? What?? If there is a loss of motor skill, why would I want to worry about chambering a round??"

Please don't tell me you're making an argument to carry "cocked but NOT locked"! Until or unless you install a custom manual safety on your Glock, it's in Condition Zero - a state that one should avoid until your gun is presented, pointed and ready to fire. Let's stick to the facts. While you are peeing your pants you can either try to deal with going blank and losing the ability to perform the fine motor skills of fumbling with a safety that is on, er off, er Oh Gawd I forget! Or perform the simple, practiced and retained motor skill of racking your weapon.

No contest.

"A safety is a detriment...for whom? How is it any more or less of a detriment than not having one chambered?"

Oh man, you really don't get it. Get back to me when you've figured out the difference between fine and gross motor skills. Under stress, anything that is a fine motor skill is indeed a detriment. Gross skills, like drawing, racking, pointing and pulling are not.

"Thanks for not including my ENTIRE quote and cutting them up to suite your fake facts. You should be banned for this IMHO"

Don't flatter yourself. I could have found any number of posters who share and who have posted similar views. These views are common enough to be cited and addressed, and I did so. It's a public forum. My advice: be openminded enough to consider alternative viewpoints. The points I raised are indeed facts, and Mr. Google may be of assistance to you.

It's fine if you want put your life on the line hoping that you'll retain your fine motor skills. This is a decision that each person needs to make for themselves. As for me, it didn't take long to see how fast, generally safe and effective the Israeli draw is.

Now let's move on to the next challenger...

"And you still need two hands."

Ho hum. Nope. Not only can you draw and rack with one hand, but for many reasons this would be the rare, rare exception. Certainly balanced by the higher liklihood that the BG might disarm and immediately shoot you with your one in the chamber. See above.

"How do you know and on what bases do you claim that? At Gunsite, par was two rounds center of mass from leather in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards -- approximately the time it takes an assailant to cover those 7 yards with a contact weapon. Your 0.3 seconds is a 20% increase in your time..."

How silly. How many of the average, everyday CCW'ers have even heard of Gunsite, much less attended there. Not too many. In a pants peeing situation, they might not even be able to find their holster, much less draw it, much less fumble around trying to find and activate, er deactivate the safety - sadly, a fine motor skill they're missing. You really need to read "Bulleyes Don't Shoot Back" - a good read for you and most of the readers who've never had to actually kill another human being, whether you attended Gunsite or not, and whether or not you were able to put two good ones into the target A-zone.

Real life is different. It's a time when all you have left are your gross skills, if those.

"On what do you base this supposition (An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw? Sweeping off the safety (especially with a 1911) is done while bringing the gun onto the target. It adds absolutely no time."

Now we're cookin! As a fine motor skill, and with urine warming your leg, it may add a LOT of time, or may not get done at all. And as I stated (you guys really need to read my posts, just not point and shoot, lol), I've really overstated the additional time the Israeli draw takes.

If you'd actually read my post, you'd have noted that the gun from draw to presentation has to travel the same path, in about the same time whether you rack or not! One study - with a decent shooter who was trying the Israeli draw for the first time, and with just a little practice - found it took him around 0.2 to 0.3 seconds more with about the same accuracy. That's what I call "barely slower" - and truth is, with some real practice, I'd expect even that minor difference to reduce or even disappear.

"This is a matter of training and practice. The Israeli draw also requires considerable training and practice. Do you suggest that someone will train and practice enough to master the Israeli draw but not enough to master management of a safety?"

Pardon me for feeding your straw man to the horses, but the Israeli draw doesn't any require any exception dedication or more or less practice than any other safety or gun handling skill. You really oughta practice it, along with your FTF's and FTE's. It's really not that difficult. Heck, it only took me a couple days to go faster than 0.3 seconds. And that can only improve. And remember, this is only an alternative for those who don't want to trust their life to retaining their fine motor skills in a real gunfight.

I won't. I KNOW I can draw and rack, present, point and fire in just about the same same time it takes to draw, present and fire. Remember, the gun follows the same path, in about the same time, whether you rack or not. Sorry.

"As has been previously noted, the major schools and trainers (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, Chapman Academy, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, etc.) teach carrying with a round chambered. Evela, where did you get your training?"

Oh, are we being challenging now? Oh my. Med school, and like 98% of the common carriers reading this now, I have NOT been trained by your name dropped buddies. But you may be interested to know that Massad - I don't know about your buddy "Etc.", lol - is very clear on the effects of panic and stress for most of us, including you my trained killer pal. All of which I learned well at a fine research university. Since you seem to want to defer to Massad, lemme quote him...

Massad:

"When human beings are in danger, their inborn survival mechanisms trigger a number phsiological changes, one of which is vasoconstriction... blood is shunted into the body's core and into the major muscle groups. (People) are seen to turn ghostly pale, and it is why people lose tactile sensation in their fingers under stress. "


It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.

These effects are well known even to first year med students. In addition, people can have panic attacks and go blank. Is the safety on? Is if off? People fumble, shake and lose the ability to do even very simple, practiced things like working the small controls on a gun, for example. These controls include the slide release, lock release, mag release and your good friend "Etc." All of which require the finer motor skills. Racking - which uses the whole hand - in relatively large, gross, powerful movements requires only gross skills, skills which tend NOT to be forgotten, and can still be successfully completed.

Since you seem a bit resistant, or god forbid dense, let me give you a simple example. You are driving home with you wife and kids, having a nice family conversation when - out of nowhere - a large semi truck is coming right at you and you are within seconds of dying. Say 7 yards, lol. If you are fortunate you may retain the gross motor skills of swerving the steering wheel and/or mashing on the brakes or accelerator.

But this would be a terrible time to say, dial your cellphone. In fact, even when the crash or evasion is over, you STILL might not be able to even dial the number for 911 - your hands will be shaking, and indeed you may be blank or pass out. Or wet your pants.

It's the same in a gunfight. I just love the macho maniacs who just love talking about how many holes their gonna blow in any fool who messes with them, yeah, yeah - but who have never fought with much more than a bullseye.

But now we've all had our fun. You've shot at me, and found out my dog bites (a gross motor skill, BTW). You got a little of what you gave. But let's put all that in the past.

Let's be friends.

I'm sure you're all well meaning, but it's fair to say there is more than one approach. The decision to rely on "locked and loaded" and to fumble with a fine motor safety (which may already be off, how confusing) - or - on having to perform a simple, and safe rack - in just about the same amount of time is a decision that each person must make for themselves.

I don't think you're nuts - but I do think you haven't fully considered all the issues. The issue of stress cannot be underestimated and must absolutely figure into your calculus of carrying and survival.

In my case, I'm honestly not very bothered by your breathless exceptions (what if you don't have two hands???!!). I'm very, very fast with the draw, and next on my to-practice list is the one hand rack, just in case lightning strikes...

While you are fumbling with your safety...

Nick5182
August 29, 2009, 10:25 PM
When I carry, I always have one in the pipe. When it's with my Beretta 92, I chamber a round, de-cock, then flip the safety to "fire" so I'm ready in DA mode. When I carry my Glock I always have a round in the pipe. I no longer carry a 1911 for the sole purpose of cocked-and-locked (although, I love the 1911 platform). It's easier for me to know that I have a round in the chamber and can be at the ready as soon as possible in a defensive situation if need be.

trigun87
August 29, 2009, 10:27 PM
Chamberd, just got my ccw 8-18-2009

TRguy
August 29, 2009, 10:44 PM
Of course there is one in the chamber. I am not Barney Fife.

Some people ask the silliest questions.

U-235
August 29, 2009, 10:48 PM
Chambered if I'm carrying a semi-auto. Full cylinder if I'm carrying a revolver.

ny32182
August 29, 2009, 10:58 PM
I think the only piece of information we are missing is where Evela received his training, so we can give that place a wide berth...

You want to add complications into your presentation, knock yourself out... I never will.

Boba Fett
August 29, 2009, 11:18 PM
Rather than list all the ways Evela is so far off the map, I will simply say this:

Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.

The only quote I need to know that he is full of BS is this:
Posted by Evela:
Fact is, it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training.


End of discussion with Evela.

kwelz
August 29, 2009, 11:26 PM
I don't think the new guy is going to fit in to well. Ignoring facts and acting like you know more than people who actually have experience doesn't tend to get you very far around here. Especially when you start doing it within your first couple posts.

ETA: Hahaha Boba I completely missed that. Who the heck teaches racking the slide with one hand. For that matter HOW do you work the slide with one hand in a life and death situation? If need be I can use the edge of a desk or something to work the slide on some of my guns but that is sure going to add more than his mythical .3 seconds.

Anyone else think that he just learned the term "Fine Motor skill" in school and was just looking for a way to use it a lot without understanding... Well understanding pretty much anything.

ny32182
August 29, 2009, 11:30 PM
I've heard of drills at schools that involve racking with one hand, using your belt or shoe sole to push the slide against... but that is in a situation assuming your other arm is disabled and you are clearing a malfunction; certainly not as part of an unrestricted presentation...

kwelz
August 29, 2009, 11:37 PM
Seems to me that method would be unreliable at best. And once again they would add many seconds to your draw time. Say you were trying to push a loved one to safety or hold off an attacker with one hand while drawing.

I have had to draw my CCW before and there is no way I would ever carry cold.

ny32182
August 29, 2009, 11:47 PM
Unreliable, absolutely, but under such circumstances there would be no other option. Can't comment on it further since I've never done it.

kwelz
August 30, 2009, 12:09 AM
Oh I agree that under extraordinary circumstances I would want to know how to do it as well. However I would prefer to take every measure to avoid it in the first place. Like carrying with one in the chamber.

moccasin
August 30, 2009, 12:34 AM
Wow, since we've gone to all the trouble of reviving a dead thread, yes the wife and I both carry with one chambered and no safety on our handguns. Terrible huh? Does it really matter how someone carries their sidearm?

Erik M
August 30, 2009, 12:44 AM
If im packing the 380 I will have the magizine topped off with a round in the pipe and if im packing the 38 I never leave the chamber under the hammer empty.

chevyforlife21
August 30, 2009, 12:44 AM
it doesnt matter if the mag is loaded or the chamber its still considered loaded anyway

Nick5182
August 30, 2009, 12:45 AM
It only matters if they care about surviving....but I'm just thinking out loud again...

AKElroy
August 30, 2009, 12:49 AM
Glock -- fully loaded +1 in the pipe. CZ 85b -- Hammer down, fully loaded +1 in the pipe. XDm -- Same as Glock. 1911 -- fully loaded +1 in the pipe, cocked & locked.

tangomike706
August 30, 2009, 01:19 AM
XDM (40 cal ) fully loaded , and chambered .
XDSC (40) same as above ,

SIG P229 (duty weapon ) fully loaded , round chambered , decocked .

coloradokevin
August 30, 2009, 02:48 AM
I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.

Respectfully, you didn't make it clear because it simply doesn't make sense. It does in-fact take longer to accomplish what you recommend, and such a movement can be next to impossible to perform in a close combat situation. Believe it or not Evela, a significant number of gun fights have taken place at a 0-3 yard distance. Sometimes your assailant is physically fighting with you when you draw your weapon, and that isn't a good time to be fiddling around with a ridiculously outdated method of drawing a weapon (one which only really existed for the sake of lawyers).

Fact is, it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training. Second, if you have less than say 0.2 or 0.3 seconds (you really do need to actually read my posts), you're probably either in, or about to be in hand-to-hand confrontation. A situation in which your primary goal is to escape, so that you CAN draw. Got that?

I think it is time for you to provide some references here Evela. I've had the real training you speak of, and I'm a career police officer for a major police department. Beyond that, I have experience in various forms of competitive shooting, and have taken a number of advanced courses that have been offered to me in the course of my career. Additionally, I've spent enough time operating in a real-world environment with a gun to know that your argument is illogical at best.

Have you ever tried a one-handed slide rack? Seriously, this is not the quickest manuever to perform for anyone, and is often difficult to perform depending on the equipment that you are wearing (belt, holster, etc), and the style of your gun (ramped sights, etc). The one-handed slide rack was developed as a last-ditch effort, primarily for the person who has a gun that needs reloaded during a firefight in which they've lost the use of one hand/arm. It is absolutely NOT a technique that should be used as an everyday way to perform a one-handed draw when preparing your weapon for imminent battle! Clearly a one-handed draw is sometimes used in a firefight, but these situations occur with a loaded/chambered weapon (excluding the type of exceptions I outlined above).

You also mention the possibility of hand-to-hand fighting ensuing before you could draw, and how that doesn't negate your argument for a slower engagement method which requires the use of two hands. Sadly, you couldn't be more wrong in this case, and I truly hope that someone doesn't get themselves killed by using your advice! As I said once already, many modern documented gun fights have happened while the subjects were in contact with each other. I even have personal knowledge of a handful of these incidents that have involved friends of mine who were fighting on the ground with a bad guy when they deployed their weapons!

Just because you are in a hand-to-hand fight does not mean that you can't deploy your firearm. But, if you are in a hand-to-hand fight and have a firearm without a round in the chamber, I hope that you only ever intended to use that firearm as an impact weapon, because you probably won't be able to free both hands to operate the slide of the weapon!

Please don't tell me you're making an argument to carry "cocked but NOT locked"! Until or unless you install a custom manual safety on your Glock, it's in Condition Zero - a state that one should avoid until your gun is presented, pointed and ready to fire. Let's stick to the facts.

Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock. You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock (I would estimate that this equates to a few hundred thousand firearms in current service with real police officers, who often carry the weapons every day of their lives). Glocks have safeties that are internal to the weapon. The gun will not fire without the trigger being moved from a forward to rearward position. The lack of an external safety has no bearing on whether or not these firearms can be safely carried for duty/CCW use with a round in the chamber.

(BTW, I've carried a Glock for my entire career, and have owned three different Glocks. I've had my current Glock for about 5 years now, and have put around 10,000 rounds through it so far, and carried it every day in those five years).

In a pants peeing situation, they might not even be able to find their holster, much less draw it, much less fumble around trying to find and activate, er deactivate the safety - sadly, a fine motor skill they're missing.

This is spoken like someone who has never actually seen armed combat firsthand. Believe me, I don't think you'll have any more luck with a slide-racking motion than someone who has trained with a 1911 would have with a safety sweep. I currently carry a Glock, as I mentioned previously, so I could almost guarantee that I'd forget to sweep a safety during a draw (unless I began training with that weapon system). However, sweeping a safety is still going to be a faster and more natural motion than bringing a second hand into the draw in an attempt to rack the slide on the weapon. This will be even more true if you are facing a charging opponent at the time of the draw, as your natural inclination will be to protect yourself with the free hand (which, ironically enough, may naturally come up to the area where your free hand will meet your other hand -- which contains a gun that is hopefully already chambered and ready for the fight).

You are not wrong in saying that the fear of a life-and-death encounter can cause people to lose control of their muscles/bladders/bowels, but I do believe that you are very wrong in assuming that adding a slide-racking motion to the draw will be a beneficial way to counter this problem!

One study - with a decent shooter who was trying the Israeli draw for the first time, and with just a little practice - found it took him around 0.2 to 0.3 seconds more with about the same accuracy.

Yet, that is demonstrated in a controlled range environment, rather than a combat situation (where you may be off-balance, in a fight, or unable to utilize one of your hands, all while you feel your adrenaline run up to the redline)! You are advocating a dangerous technique that has been abandoned by every agency/organization that I'm personally aware of.

It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.

The NY trigger was developed to address problems in training, not problems with guns. Sadly, we now have the NY trigger here in our department, as the administration's answer to an officer who gave herself a 'racing stripe' when she holstered her loaded weapon (following a course of fire) and failed to remove her finger from the trigger guard. Her idiotic accident led to a political decision that impacted the rest of my department, when it really should have only resulted in nothing more than some serious remedial training for the involved officer. Such is the way things often work. Politics runs the show, and in the past has also created things such as the so-called "Israeli Draw".



Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.

^^ Something to think about!

I don't usually jump too quickly to calling someone a troll, but with a post count of only 5, and a very strongly worded opinion that goes against the grain of everything that is currently taught by the vast majority of the world, it kind of gets you wondering.

I wouldn't even waste my time replying to such comments, except that I'd hate to see some new shooter become convinced that they should never carry their weapon chambered, and then ultimately see that person get hurt as a result of that decision!

Frank Ettin
August 30, 2009, 04:27 AM
Evala, I thought you were going to say your piece and let us decide. You wrote...it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide...Of course, most of your "facts" were not facts at all, but rather unsubstantiated opinions. Nonetheless, a number of us read what you wrote and decided -- that you were wrong. That should have settled it, but you chose instead to subject us to a further diatribe in post 183.

...Switching off a safety - a fine motor skill - will be difficult, confusing and impossible for most users facing death for the first time....Prove it. Supply evidence. It is not a fine motor skill, especially with a 1911, and especially when a 1911 is fired with a high thumb. It you have solid evidence to the contrary, supply it.

...it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training...Yes, and I have learned to do it and practiced doing it. It is a difficult and awkward action and is also slow. As coloradokevin discussed it is a technique with a specialized application.

...I have NOT been trained by your name dropped buddies....Yes, it's quite obvious that you have no real training.

And yes, a violent encounter is a very high stress situation. That's why we train, practice and compete.

Let's be friends...I don't think it would work out.

I'm sure you're all well meaning, but it's fair to say there is more than one approach. The decision to rely on "locked and loaded" and to fumble with a fine motor safety (which may already be off, how confusing)...First, don't presume to condescend to me. It's apparent that I have more training and shooting experience than you (and am also well educated, having spent over 30 years practicing law), so I don't think you have anything to teach me in this field (in contrast, I'm sure that coloradokevin and some other on this board could teach me some things).

Second, in tens of thousands of presentations with my 1911s, in classes, in practice and in competition, I've never fumbled with my safety.

ScareyH22A
August 30, 2009, 04:56 AM
:rolleyes:

Quick Karl
August 30, 2009, 12:00 PM
HK USP Compact 9mm cocked & locked.

Click, bang.

Just like a 1911...

CombatArmsUSAF
August 30, 2009, 12:35 PM
You would have to be an idiot to agree with Evela. I carry my glock with one chambered and I also carry a revolver from time to time with all chambers loaded.

Point and pull trigger, that doesn't require any fine motor skill.

I would also like to point out to Evela that just because someone is wearing a badge does not mean that they have gone through anymore training or practice than an average CHL holder. I have known many LEOs that the gun they carried on their hip was simply a tool and they didn't go the extra step to make sure they were even proficient in it's use even in a calm situation.

You wanna see proof of that, look up shots fired -vs- actual hits in alot of LEO shootings. Then compare them to the same statistics you can find for CHL Holders.

Just so everyone knows, I am not bashing cops, many people don't take every aspect or tool associated with their line of work with the utmost seriousness.

Evela
August 30, 2009, 01:09 PM
I thank my new friends for their kind and cogent replies. I'll try once more, just for the Gipper. Not to mention its just way too much fun...

"Evala, I thought you were going to say your piece and let us decide. You wrote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evala in post 167
...it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide...

Of course, most of your "facts" were not facts at all, but rather unsubstantiated opinions."

You can't read. You've already decided, but you can't resist reading your own writing. Of course, the fact that you think what I state are not facts, is, in fact, not factual. Why? Because I say so (your reason, lol...). Heaven forbid that I disagree. You said your piece, I've given an alternative viewpoint, that should be about it.

"Prove it. Supply evidence."

I did. You don't read. And if you think I'm gonna repeat myself, you're sadly mistaken.

"Yes, it's quite obvious that you have no real training."

See above. I stated my training, andalso took great pains to cite Ayoob, your hero (and mine). I know exactly what fine and gross motors skills are and it cost me over $100,000 in training to find out. Get real.

"First, don't presume to condescend to me. It's apparent that I have more training and shooting experience than you (and am also well educated, having spent over 30 years practicing law), so I don't think you have anything to teach me in this field"

I don't presume. It is you who presume to know it all and condescend based on your years of doing it your way - your comment up is nothing if not condescending. Hate to tell you this but the Israeli draw is a reliable and respected alternative, used for decades. And your superior, Mr. Ayoob will be the first to tell you that you'd better consider stress - and loss of fine motor skills - as primary in your preparation for real life.

We disagree, and I have no need to convince you otherwise, after all you have all that experience, blah, blah, blah.

Next....

" Originally Posted by Evela
I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.

Respectfully, you didn't make it clear because it simply doesn't make sense. It does in-fact take longer to accomplish what you recommend, and such a movement can be next to impossible to perform in a close combat situation."

Oh my. And now we're allegedly talking to a real pro, good grief. Look, either you have poor powers of visualization or you really know NOTHING about the Israeli draw. Out of common courtesy I'll take a little time to repeat myself (but don't ask again). Close combat has been discussed. As for the time needed, a person experienced in the Israeli draw ought to be even a tad faster. How can that be?

Follow me, Tonto...

Visualize the path a gun might take from holster to presentation. Up out of the holster, pivot, then roughly forward to the centerline to presentation. The weak hand joins later in that process. A typical draw. Whether you rack or not, the gun follows about the same path. All that happens is that the left hand is brought to the gun a bit sooner (before the forward movement), takes a slingshot (or for some, saddle) grip - as the gun continues to move.

At this point the left hand holds position while the right (gun) hand continues to move forward. In fact, the gun hand almost punches forward. Due to the roughly stationary left hand, the slide is held back and automatically racks as the gun hand continues to move forward.

At no time does the gun hand hesitate or stop its normal draw movement. In fact, if anything the gun hand accelerates forward, FASTER than a typical draw. At a point the slide racks and is virtually pulled from the left hand - the left hand is then free to accelerate and join the right hand for a typical two hand grip.

Ayoob himself respects the method and has noted that the Israeli draw(using a slingshot grip) is faster, more powerful and keeps the muzzle on line. The slingshot grip requires less strength and accordingly benefits all shooters, young, old, female, weak and strong.

In practice it is amazing to see and is one smooth, continuous and rapid movement directly to centerline and a nice flash sight presentation. You can barely even notice that it happened to be racked in the process. The racking happens during the stroke and does not interrupt it in any way. It is certainly not a separate step.

I'll say it again for the backyard commando's - the gun follow about the same path (except faster) as a typical draw, from holster to presentation, without interruption, without pause, with no additional step. If anything the Israeli draw is faster, and more powerful due to the agressive push toward presentation.

Experienced practitioners can expect to draw and fire 3 shots in roughly a second or a tad more. This compares very favorably. Now. This is the last time I'm gonna hold your hand on this one. Anyone who really knew the draw wouldn't ask such ignorant questions.

Don't ask me again.

"Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock (condition zero). You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock".

Not true, let's leave it at most, not "every" police department. And you too need to read better. I practically fell over myself trying to differentiate the many relatively untrained, inexperienced and minimally competent CCW carriers - who should consider condition three - with the real pro's like you who ARE trained, practice regularly and who are paid to take the greatly increased risks of both condition one and having to face BG's on a daily basis. True professionals face much higher risks and accordingly have to take more.

Thanks for making my point. And as far as hand-to-hand "combat", why don't you just face up to the fact no ordinary citizen - a housewife, grandpa, or Walmart greeter - will ever really be adequately trained or prepared for real combat. They are better off running than accosting. You are speaking to professionals about professionals.

I'm not. And it the ordinary user who will go blank or panic, and fumble with the fine motor skill safety at the moment of truth. And to make it worse, what if the safety is already off? Will he/she then make it on safe? What if he/she is carrying a semi with a safety that is deactivated in the opposite direction of his/her primary carry? What if, heaven forbid, he/she was distracted that morning and there ISN'T "one in the tube"? Click. Click!?

All of these can happen.

The beauty of the Israeli draw is that it's a gross skill, that (with practice) can be performed just as fast, if not faster than a typical draw. It becomes a safe, reliable and effective habit. As a result the Israeli draw makes FTE, FTF clearing easy.

One last note: as far as hand-to-hand goes I've got a dandy S&W SWAT knife that can shred a heart faster, more accurately and more effectively than any puny handgun round. I would consider it ridiculous to depend on any one technique or weapon. But again - probably not something I'd recommend to Grandpa.

We're talkin bout real people, real life. You want combat - join the USMC...

"Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock. You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock (I would estimate that this equates to a few hundred thousand firearms in current service with real police officers, who often carry the weapons every day of their lives). Glocks have safeties that are internal to the weapon."

Now who is condescending? I own two Glocks (34/26) and can detail strip them in my sleep. I know all about the "internal" safeties, and please don't bore me with "it's your finger that's the ultimate safety". Spare me. I won't even begin to cite the AD's and ND's experienced by police, but this is common knowledge.

And these are professionals "who carry the weapons every day of their lives". What does this say about the common CCW carrier who is minimally ready, practiced or prepared? You know the answer, no doubt you've visited a few homes where Daddy accidently shot the dog, or worse Mommy. You are speaking to professionals - I am speaking to the rest.

"This is spoken like someone who has never actually seen armed combat firsthand. Believe me, I don't think you'll have any more luck with a slide-racking motion than someone who has trained with a 1911 would have with a safety sweep."

Again, thanks for making my point. Almost all of us have NOT seen armed combat (although this thread is beginning to feel like it, lol), which is exactly what I was getting at. The use of this draw in Israel for decades, and many years to by the USMC and Army (1911 days) proves otherwise. It worked then and it still works. I hate to keep making the point you keep running away from, but it's a well practiced gross motor skill that is retained during stress.

In Israel, just for one example, the concept was to arm ordinary citizens, to carry concealed, to be in and protect schools and other such places from armed terrorist attack - using the Israeli method. It was wildly successful, so much so that this idea was seriously discussed by police organizations (including Ayoob) for possible use here. Guess you missed that meeting.

" Originally Posted by Evela
It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.

The NY trigger was developed to address problems in training, not problems with guns. Sadly, we now have the NY trigger here in our department, as the administration's answer to an officer who gave herself a 'racing stripe' when she holstered her loaded weapon (following a course of fire) and failed to remove her finger from the trigger guard."

You make this too easy. Couple paragraphs ago you were bragging about the 10,000 rounds you've fired (is that all?), and how safe the Glock's triple safety was for daily duty carry. Oh well, hope she recovered OK. Again, thank for making my point. BTW, my statement had nothing to do with why the NY#1 (and #2) were developed. What I did say was that our hero Mas Ayoob recommends the NY#1 because of the debilitating effects of stress and to avoid AD's and ND's.

I'll defer to Ayoob anytime and so should you.

"Yet, that (fast speed) is demonstrated in a controlled range environment, rather than a combat situation (where you may be off-balance, in a fight, or unable to utilize one of your hands, all while you feel your adrenaline run up to the redline)!"

I wish you could have it both ways. You want me to believe the exact opposite of the facts established both by Ayoob and others, and in my post. Specifically you want us to believe that under great stress, a user won't be able to do a gross skill, but WILL be able to perfrom a fine motor skill.

That, sir, is exactly backwards. Believe me, if an average carrier can't perform gross skills, they won't be threading any needles either - or properly manipulating fine skill safeties. If you don't see that, you don't see anything.

In sum, you need to stuff your ego for half a minute, and honestly and openly consider that a condition three carry - used by our own military, some police departments and other professionals and Israel - might just be a safer and more reliable proposition for the family.

What these - ordinary people - are seeking is "pretty good protection". They are not professionals, are unlikely to prevail in hand-to-hand, and don't seek perfection. Simply, they like having a gun that has an empty chamber, but that can be brought to bear - under stress - quickly and reliably. Theynow understand that real combat may destroy their fine motor skills, and want a method that still works. And a Glock - with its internal safeties only, and in condition three - might just be the perfect choice.

I think that most of these average users may be relieved to find that the Israeli draw provides the "pretty good protection" they seek.

Boba Fett
August 30, 2009, 01:15 PM
Remember,

Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.

SniperStraz
August 30, 2009, 01:25 PM
$100,000 in training
...and you still haven't found a weapon that you can carry reliably with a round chambered?
This is really a dumb argument. Israeli's *carried* that way because in 1948 when the country was established they had a hodgepodge of different weapons with different manuals of arms. The simplest thig was to carry with all safeties off and to chamber a round when ready to fire.
If you want to carry without a round chambered then do so, but don't assume that its better or safer.
I'm curious to know, that is if you don't mind sharing with us, who it is that was worth paying $100,000 to train you to carry and draw Israeli style.
You're correct in that the proper way to execute an Israeli draw is in a fluid motion. However, doing two things at the same time does not equal one motion.
However it is that you choose to carry, practice and be safe.
All the best.

Frank Ettin
August 30, 2009, 01:26 PM
Evela, my what a screed, and just because a bunch of folks didn't simply accept your point of view and rather challenged it. You have confirmed that there is no reason to pay attention to your opinions.

mljdeckard
August 30, 2009, 01:50 PM
Yeah, bottom line, one-handed cocking is an emergency measure, not one you should depend on if you don't have to. Ayoob DOES NOT advocate carrying with an empty chamber. Nor does he assume that police have better or more training than armed civilians. I have shown more then one cop how to rack the slide with one hand.

In agreeing with bobafett, Evela is a guy who trained under one school of thought and opinion and won't believe that anything else could be correct. If you are using a handgun to save your life, it means everything else has already gone to hell. You cannot assume that you will be able to rack the slide, anymore than you can assume you will be able to load the gun completely.

You need to spend less time in books and more time on the range. Ideas change a LOT when people are shooting back at you.

kwelz
August 30, 2009, 03:34 PM
Evela, you really need to take a step back and look at how you are acting. There are many of us on here who argue about various points with firearms. We are all much more respectful to each other than you are being to well established and respected members.

Some of us who have been here a while and will rib each other or be a smartass when we are disagreeing, but you are being condescending and it isn't going to endear you to anyone here. People with actual experience have told you why you are wrong. Learn from them, and be glad that this forum is more understanding than others.

pyle
August 30, 2009, 04:06 PM
I would never ***tell*** anyone else how to carry, nor would I tell them what to carry.

This thread is pretty much useless, unless you're looking for some statistics on how one person chooses to carry vs another.

* I don't believe this thread is "high road" at all, from what I've read.

* One could argue that anyone who carries a handgun with a traditional safety - for self defense - is adding an extra (unnecessary) step. Increasing the time required to draw and fire the handgun if needed.

* One could also argue that one hand should be on your handgun at all times - thus decreasing the time required to draw and fire your weapon - should you need to.

* It's way more important to be able shoot accurately (under pressure) than have a round chamber or not chambered while carrying.

IMO, this thread is as useless as those threads where people try to say a .45 is a better caliber than a .40 S&W for self-defense, etc. No point in arguing it.....

Better to let people carry in the way they know they will be most safe, efficient, and effective FOR THEM - rather than trying to say that one way is better than another.

Having said that, I carry differently, depending on the situation and the handgun I happen to be carrying.

Shadow 7D
August 30, 2009, 04:09 PM
Interesting argument, to which I choose to apply Ockham's Razor :Of several acceptable explanations for a phenomenon, the explanation containing just the facts will do.

Also known as KISS, I have no doubt of the safeties in my XD, If I carry it, locked and cocked. The same with my other pistols. However if I ever choose to carry my tokarev, then I will learn the Israeli drill, as that would be the most prudent way of carrying it.

In all my training, both armchair and otherwise the focus has been on parsing unnecessary movements out of the draw to get your weapon on target as quickly as possible.

So until I carry a weapon like the tokarev where the safety is known to be of dubious quality, I have no reason to make an Israeli draw my standard.

That being said, there are many wiser heads here than I, and trying to knock them all in the same thread is not something I endeavor to do.

RP88
August 30, 2009, 04:20 PM
I don't have my CHP yet, but will most likely soon.

I'll be carrying my Glock 17.

conw
August 30, 2009, 04:47 PM
Massad Ayoob wrote (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html):

Since the 1911 is best carried fully loaded with a round in the chamber and “cocked and locked”—the hammer cocked on the live round, and the thumb safety “on safe”—you want to learn to wipe that safety lever into the “fire” position as you bring the gun up on target.

With a pre-cocked, single action trigger pull, the 1911 now puts only a short, easy trigger press between you and the necessary hit. Repeat as necessary: the same easy pull will follow for each subsequent shot.

One big advantage of cocked and locked carry is that it mandates the gun be “on safe.” If the wrong person gets the gun away from you, he has to figure out which of those little levers “turns on the gun.” This will buy you time to either rectify the situation up close and personal or run a considerable distance, either of which beats hell out of the bad guy holding a “point gun, pull trigger” weapon on you at contact distance.

In the hands of such seasoned, well-trained lawmen as the LAPD SWAT team, the 1911 .45 pistol has historically delivered an extremely high percentage of hits for the shots fired in life-threatening close combat. The pistol is simply easy to use well when in the grip of hand-shaking, gut-clenching “fight or flight response.” Browning built it to perform exactly that way. The design succeeded.

DAVIDSDIVAD
August 30, 2009, 04:51 PM
I hope John Holbrook doesn't mind my posting of his picture, but I think it says more than enough:

http://www.fototime.com/%7B88EB8B7A-880F-4056-B21F-D5633B3B0239%7D/picture.JPG



When I carry cocked and locked, I have SCIENCE on my side.

I know that the laws of physics aren't going to fail and allow the hammer to fall when I don't want it to.

On top of that, Chemistry is my best bro, and I know the salty crap in the primer ain't gonna go bonkers until I want it to either.


That leaves the rest of the equation up to me.

And I think survivability increases as time decreases in getting the weapon ready to do its job and save my life.

ChCx2744
August 30, 2009, 07:26 PM
I always CARRY with a round chambered in my CARRY PISTOL. If I am going to the range with my rifle or shotgun, of COURSE they are not chambered...Any carry pistol should always always always be chambered. That extra fraction of whatever second it takes for you to draw and acquire sight picture can be GREATLY hindered by trying to rack a round into an empty pipe...That fraction of that second at that time can be the difference between sleeping okay at home that night, sleeping in a hospital bed or taking a dirt nap.

BushyGuy
August 30, 2009, 07:47 PM
i have my PT92C chambered with the hammer down(decocker) safety off .

my .32 acp chambered hammer down safety off

when i get my Ruger SR9 this thursday i think i am gonna carry it chambered with safety off too since its a striker fired pistol.

ArmedBear
August 30, 2009, 07:48 PM
I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step.

You can make it clear as you want. It's not true.

fireman 9731
August 30, 2009, 07:49 PM
Cocked. Locked. Ready to Rock.

You got that right!

conw
August 30, 2009, 10:55 PM
OK, definitely a troll.

AKElroy
August 31, 2009, 09:28 AM
I have seen Ayoob quoted dozens of times in this thread, making statements supporting both arguments. Every picture I see for the guy has him wearing a cocked & locked .45.

Evela
August 31, 2009, 09:57 AM
You know when the replies reduce to name calling, or avoid addressing the points made, that you've been successful. I'm pleased. Let me give you some examples, no doubt painfully posted:

"You can make it (that the racking does not require an "extra step") as clear as you want. It's not true."

This is a typical one line response that expects us to believe you - why? - well, just because you say so. Thank god you finally posted. I have seen the light. Idiocy defined.

"That fraction of that second at that time can be the difference between sleeping okay at home that night, sleeping in a hospital bed or taking a dirt nap."

A dirt nap? Mmmm, sounds comfy, though I prefer napping on the sand at the beach while catching up with my sun tan. This one is at least a little better (but not much). Another "trust me" claim without discussion. From another non-reader. The primary issue was the effects of stress insofar as fine motor skills, especially regarding the common, relatively inexperienced CCW carrier. A typical smug, simplistic and evasive post. Not real useful.

"I know that the laws of physics aren't going to fail and allow the hammer to fall when I don't want it to. I have SCIENCE on my side."

This guy at least made a reasonable attempt, posted a nice pic of the safeties on a 1911. Nicely done. I was not aware that rabid gunslingers had any respect for "SCIENCE" (shouted, lol). Hate to tell ya this Archimedes but your "SCIENCE" fails all the time with untold numbers of AD's and ND's involving both amateurs and professionals. Have you ever heard of something called "statistics", oops I mean "STATISTICS". A silly post.

"Massad Ayoob wrote: 'In the hands of such seasoned, well-trained lawmen as the LAPD SWAT team, the 1911 .45 pistol has historically delivered an extremely high percentage of hits...'.".

I like this post. Very reasonable, at least tries to present a well intended argument. Thank you. But unfortunately this post falls into the quick 'n dirty, cut 'n paste Google result. Here's how it works. You Google the result you'd like to find, then scan maybe the first page of results, grab the one that says what you think you want to say, cut and paste and voila! You look like a superstar. Simple, fast, superficially impressive, but...

Irrelevant.

Posters like this not only don't fully read or comprehend the post they are trying - very quickly - to reply to, they often don't read their own citations. Read the above again - this poster is referring to the experiences of the highly trained LAPD SWAT team. Irrelevent to the common CCW carrier who would probably sit down, cry and pray in the same circumstances.

Ayoob also pointed out the incredible and debilitating effects of stress in a gunfight - especially for the amateur. He has also shown great respect for the Israeli method (see my earlier posts). But I guess you don't read.

Guys, ya gotta read, really read, and respond. The concern is safety and reliabilty for ordinary and inexperienced CCW owners under real stress. Try to stay on point.

"I would never ***tell*** anyone else how to carry, nor would I tell them what to carry. It's way more important to be able shoot accurately (under pressure) than have a round chamber or not chambered while carrying. Better to let people carry in the way they know they will be most safe, efficient, and effective FOR THEM - rather than trying to say that one way is better than another.

This thread is pretty much useless, unless you're looking for some statistics on how one person chooses to carry vs another."

This was by far the most competent, rational and respectful posts of the bunch, and not just because Mr. Pyle largely agreed with me. He sees the issues and understands that condition 3 and the Israeli draw is a reasonable choice for the ordinary CCW user. But I would like to counter his feeling that the thread is "useless" except for statistics.

I would venture to say that newer CCW carriers are very tentative and are still forming their preferences. They don't understand what all the options are, they are not yet familiar with the history and successful useage of the condition 3 option. What they HAVE been exposed to a buncha professionals and gunstore commandos who say the ONLY way is "one in the pipe".

All delivered with dramatic and smug certainty - otherwise, you'll be takin that "dirt nap". My, my. No, the value of this thread - however unpleasant - is to educate and present all the options, with a real risk-reward analysis that allow the user to make a prejudice free decision.

Pyle is a reasoned man, one of the few here. I may live to regret saying that though, lol.

"Evela, you really need to take a step back and look at how you are acting. There are many of us on here who argue about various points with firearms. We are all much more respectful to each other than you are being to well established and respected members."

Azziza speaks well, and the debate was between the two or us, or maybe Pyle I'm sure the tone would be rather different. But - be honest - the reality includes many posts like this:

"Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja. Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies... definitely a troll... what a screed... there is no reason to pay attention to your opinions... This is really a dumb argument... there is no reason to pay attention to your opinions...". And many more.

And look at your very own post, fer gawdsake, where you say "People with actual experience...". You call that respectful!? Look in the mirror, my friend. Close but no banana, and if you consider that condescending you're pretty delicate.

See what tends to happen is that the resident "experts" have a tendency to gang up, intrude, mock and try to overpower views that differ from their Koran of approved viewpoints. An outsider - unless he/she has a VERY thick skin - comes in at a decided disadvantage.

Personally I think my posts are quite respectful under the circumstances. I can give as good as I get though, and if you treat me with disdain, my response to you might just be a little edgy. And another thing - I'm not gonna endlessly repeat my points simply because many other posters simply don't read, don't care, or continue to post the same tired one-liners.

My dog bites.

"You're correct in that the proper way to execute an Israeli draw is in a fluid motion. However, doing two things at the same time does not equal one motion."

Since this was posted with respect, I'll answer likewise, even though this was well detailed in my last post, above. Actually I didn't say that (that "doing two thing equals one motion"). Those are your words. What I have repeatedly said is that in the Israeli draw the gun follows almost the same path as a more typical draw. If I turned the sound off on the Israeli you would probably not even notice the weapon had been racked. Both draws change direction after the gun is withdrawn from the holster (from roughly vertical to forward). In both draws the gun follows a pretty similar path, at about the same speed, and with no real pauses or deviations.

Here's the difference.

In a typical draw the left hand joins a bit later in the process. In the Israeli draw it is engaged earlier - to catch and retard the slide - but read this twice: without really changing, slowing or pausing the continuing movement of the right hand in moving the gun forward to presentation. If anything, in the Israeli draw the right hand moves faster, almost punches forward, very focused and powerful.

Indeed, this is why very experienced practioners of the Israeli draw feel that it is faster to presentation. One trainer pretty much promises 3 effective shots in about one second. True? Maybe not, but close enough for government work, lol.

Let's close with this...

"In agreeing with bobafett, Evela is a guy who trained under one school of thought and opinion and won't believe that anything else could be correct."

Just the opposite. Don't put words in my mouth. If you take a hard, honest look the prevailing PC position here is that anything but carrying hot is just plain foolish. I merely suggested that for the common and inexperienced CCW carrier, and with a view toward safety and reliablity under stress, that condition 3 and the Israeli draw constituted a very good, and perhaps better option.

Still, it appears the roving gangs - with the exceptions of a couple of reasonable posters (acknowledged above) - can't leave well enough alone, can't ask honest questions, explore with openmindedness, or post with true respect.

That, sadly, is the way it is. To me the important thing was to present an alternative viewpoint with justification as a true and useful option for the common CCW carrier and reader.

That has been done. And honestly, I enjoyed it, no hard feelings. A good, rowdy interchange.

David904
August 31, 2009, 10:00 AM
I'm always astounded by those who would carry a modern firearm for self defense and not have a round chambered.

It sounds like suicide, not self defense to me.

Grey_Mana
August 31, 2009, 10:21 AM
If you are going to carry with one in the tube, you have to be smart and vigilant. You have to be better than the guys who:

dropped their gun, grabbed for it, shot themselves, and lost their lucrative dream job as a result.

the guy who puts the gun for sale at a gun show without unloading, and some dope fires off the round

the various instructors who have shot themselves while lecturing about firearm safety

left the gun where his kid could find it and shoot somebody

I recommend carrying with one in the tube. But carrying unchambered is better than not carrying. It is a spectrum of risk. I don't know of anyone who recommends carrying chambered/safety off, or chambered/fully cocked/safety off. How are you going to flick the safety button, if the bad guy broke all 10 of your fingers before you could draw?

I think people who have lots of experience forget what it was like before they had experience, and they can't quite imagine what it would be like to be an adult starting to think about self-defense.

Legionnaire
August 31, 2009, 10:25 AM
Always one in the chamber, whether Ruger LCP in the pocket (in an Alessi pocket holster) or a 1911 (cocked and locked in a thumb break holster) on the hip.

Hokkmike
August 31, 2009, 10:35 AM
A good thread. As I will be carrying my first DAO pistol I will need to study its operation and safety features then make my decision.

For a DA/SA when on my person condition ONE is appropriate. When stored, night stand etc., condition TWO is preferred.

ezypikns
August 31, 2009, 11:03 AM
This is from the "Cocked and Locked" online column from Robert H. Boatman.

Texas Ranger Charlie Miller was minding his own business when a concerned citizen came up to him, noted the hammer cocked back on the big 1911 dangling from the Ranger's belt, and asked, "Isn't that dangerous?" Charlie replied, "I wouldn't carry the son-of-a-bitch if it wasn't dangerous."


I feel pretty much the same way.

sawhitt
August 31, 2009, 11:09 AM
Chambered cocked, and locked.

How else would one carry a 1911?

Evela
August 31, 2009, 11:20 AM
To all my new friends here, please forgive me if I cannot be as attentive as I'd like as after a time, even swatting flies can become burdensome. For those who read, but especially for those who do better with moving pictures, thought I'd share the following:

Link to Summit Training (Texas, New Mexico, San Francisco) (http://www.israelicombatshooting.com/firearmstrainingprograms.htm)

Be sure to check out the imbedded video if you want to see just how much slower the Israeli draw is, lol...

DougDubya
August 31, 2009, 11:26 AM
This is from the "Cocked and Locked" online column from Robert H. Boatman.

Quote:
Texas Ranger Charlie Miller was minding his own business when a concerned citizen came up to him, noted the hammer cocked back on the big 1911 dangling from the Ranger's belt, and asked, "Isn't that dangerous?" Charlie replied, "I wouldn't carry the son-of-a-bitch if it wasn't dangerous."

I feel pretty much the same way.

Yeah, but Charlie Miller carried his with the safety off, the hammer at half cock, and the grip safety pinned down by a length of rawhide wrapped around it.

(Part of the reason why I consider Condition 2 feasible - it worked for Charlie Miller who was QUITE successful with the 1911 that way. But I wouldn't pin the grip safety.)

ArmedBear
August 31, 2009, 11:30 AM
This is a typical one line response that expects us to believe you - why? - well, just because you say so. Thank god you finally posted. I have seen the light. Idiocy defined.


There IS no better response.

A process that requires multiple steps is not a one-step process.

You expect others to believe an absolute, inherent falsehood because YOU think you made it CLEAR enough?

That, my friend, is idiocy defined.

DHJenkins
August 31, 2009, 11:30 AM
1911 - Chambered, cocked & locked.

Any of my Sigs - Chambered only. DA/SA doesn't require cocking, and there is no external safety (to lock).

Proper finger discipline & drawing technique will always get a weapon on target faster than any "super-fast-slide-rack-and-draw" technique. Always.

If anyone believes that their weapon could spontaneously discharge, they shouldn't be carrying it in the first place.

An Israeli draw is very fast, but ergonomically speaking, it's not nearly as efficient as a 'regular' draw.

Be sure to check out the imbedded video if you want to see just how much slower the Israeli draw is, lol...

That man has the advantage that his weapon is NOT concealed. You couldn't do the same thing if your weapon was under an untucked shirt, for example. You can't raise your shirt with your weak hand and rack the weapon at the same time.

BornAgainBullseye
August 31, 2009, 11:43 AM
My 1911 in .45 acp will in .3 seconds travel 80 yards. In the common defensive range it will do it in .03 seconds. .3 seconds is what seperates living from the dead.

kwelz
August 31, 2009, 11:46 AM
Wow. A few of us Tried being nice. But I think I will risk getting in trouble and just say it. Evela, please go away, your attitude is not wanted or appreciated around here. Adults can disagree and debate various issues. You are not acting like an adult.

One-Time
August 31, 2009, 11:49 AM
It would be retarded to not carry a chambered gun IMO!

I carry a 1911 'Cocked and Locked'

Frank Ettin
August 31, 2009, 12:36 PM
...Ayoob also pointed out the incredible and debilitating effects of stress in a gunfight - especially for the amateur. He has also shown great respect for the Israeli method (see my earlier posts)....You have clearly never met Mas nor taken one of his classes. I have. And he teaches carrying the gun with a round chambered.

ArmedBear
August 31, 2009, 12:41 PM
Maybe Evela is really Shiva.

But if he is, then nobody ELSE here is. Or is that not how Hindu theology works?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oTwsl61fgcU/SGedsBt1VeI/AAAAAAAAAUs/MreoO7Equ28/s400/shiva_hm.jpg

Frank Ettin
August 31, 2009, 01:04 PM
Maybe Evela is really Shiva...So that's how he can manage the Israeli draw so well. He has a bunch of extra arms.

Grey_Mana
August 31, 2009, 01:17 PM
Wow. A few of us Tried being nice. ... your attitude is not wanted or appreciated around here. Adults can disagree and debate various issues. You are not acting like an adult.

Posts like this make me wonder who here is a plantiff's attorney in lawsuits against gun makers (http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/08/31/appeal-to-the-supreme-court-on-plcaa/). Billy had taken out the gunís clip before aiming it, believing that would make it harmless. A bullet that had remained in the gunís chamber killed Joshua.

James T Thomas
August 31, 2009, 01:19 PM
Six chambered!

And No safety to forget to disengage.

kwelz
August 31, 2009, 01:37 PM
Posts like this make me wonder who here is a plantiff's attorney in lawsuits against gun makers.

Care to elaborate. How does my commenting that his attitude is out of line have anything to do with the idiots in that lawsuit.

ezypikns
August 31, 2009, 01:41 PM
Disagreement on "The High Road"!!!!!!!

When there's nothing left of this dead horse, let's argue about...........................OPEN CARRY!

bang_bang
August 31, 2009, 01:42 PM
Para-O P10 1911 .45- Cocked and locked. :cool:
EAA Witness .45- One Chambered with safety on.
Dan Wesson .357- 6 ready to rock n' roll.
Kel-Tec 9mm- Chambered.

Otherwise...I think any of these would just be a relatively expensive rock to throw at someone. In that case, the Kel-Tec wouldn't be nearly as effective as the others, due to it's polymer frame. :neener:

Now for home defense and such, I keep the Witness and Dan Wesson loaded at all times. The Para-O then has a magazine in it, but I don't chamber a round. That way every time I carry it, I am sure that I have chambered a round.

dom1104
August 31, 2009, 01:47 PM
this is possibly the wierdest thread I have ever read.


It has everything.

Mall Ninjas.
Jews.
Angry 1911 proponents.
female officer "Racing Stripes"
and "dropping your gun in the toilet, grabbing for it, it goes off and you lose your job"

lol...... okaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Kleanbore
August 31, 2009, 01:59 PM
When I carry a Smith & Wesson Centennial, I carry it with five rounds chambered. There's no functional advantage in doing it any other way.

So--it's draw, aim, squeeze once or several times. Obviously there's no safety.

A semi-automatic with a DAO or long-pull striker fired action involves the same movements and the same time from initiating the draw to firing as the double action revolver double action. A lot of people use them.

In the majority of the justifiable self defense shooting scenarios that I can envision, that draw and fire technique leaves very little margin for error, time-wise. I cannot lawfully produce the weapon until the danger is imminent. Loosely translated that means it is now.

All of the semi-automatic pistols I have ever had have had safeties that I could operate extremely quickly and that I do operate without thinking about them. There seems to be no really measurable time penalty vs. the double action revolver. Some people do not like a safety on a striker fired or DAO semi-automatic. I do. I wouldn't dream of having a single action semi-auto without a safety.

Additional time is needed for me to cycle a slide--an extra step, even if concurrent with presenting the pistol, and for me and probably for most people it slows the process. Add in that time increment and I cannot be at all sure of drawing and firing quickly enough to stop a man who initiates a deadly force encounter by surprise at close range, so the choice for me is obvious. No empty chamber for me except at the range.

Is there a danger of a negligent discharge? I do not see any greater danger than with a revolver.

I do not know a single policeman with whom I have discussed guns who does not carry his pistol with a round in the chamber.

"Back in the day" they carried their revolvers loaded, too. What's the difference?

Frank Ettin
August 31, 2009, 02:30 PM
Posts like this make me wonder who here is a plantiff's attorney in lawsuits against gun makers. (http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/08/31/appeal-to-the-supreme-court-on-plcaa/) A little far afield aren't we? That case has nothing to do with carrying a gun with a loaded chamber.

[1] The issue at present, and the one the plaintiff is trying to take to the Supreme Court, is only procedural. The case was thrown out as barred by federal law prohibiting certain types of lawsuits against gun makers. The question will be the constitutionality of that law. For the present, neither the mechanics of guns nor the merits of the case generally will even be considered.

[2] And the question in the underlying case is whether the gun was defectively designed because it didn't have a magazine disconnect. Aside from the fact that there are all sorts of hurdles to making that stick, it's really irrelevant to a gun in the control of the authoruized user having a round in the chamber.

[3] In fact the underlying case is really about the owner of the gun allowing a loaded gun to be accessible to an unauthorized person. And indeed the owner probably has some liability there, but he doesn't have as much money as Beretta.

[4] Still leaving a gun unattended around the house with a loaded chamber is a very different thing from having a gun with a loaded chamber under your control in a holster on your person.

NoleMan
August 31, 2009, 03:24 PM
Chambered and ready to go. No safety is on. A good holster and sound gun traning should prevent any accidents. When, and if, I need my firearm, I don't want to have to think...I just want to pull the trigger and have the gun function.

conw
August 31, 2009, 03:44 PM
I like this post. Very reasonable, at least tries to present a well intended argument. Thank you. But unfortunately this post falls into the quick 'n dirty, cut 'n paste Google result. Here's how it works. You Google the result you'd like to find, then scan maybe the first page of results, grab the one that says what you think you want to say, cut and paste and voila! You look like a superstar. Simple, fast, superficially impressive, but...

Irrelevant.

Posters like this not only don't fully read or comprehend the post they are trying - very quickly - to reply to, they often don't read their own citations. Read the above again - this poster is referring to the experiences of the highly trained LAPD SWAT team. Irrelevent to the common CCW carrier who would probably sit down, cry and pray in the same circumstances.

I know maybe you don't mean to be trolling, but you are clearly trying to provoke emotional responses from me, and other posters, with your flippant responses to well-reasoned posts.

Matter of fact, I remembered that article as had I read it years ago. I had a feeling you would latch on to the "well-trained lawmen" part of it, but you skipped right over the meat:

Since the 1911 is best carried fully loaded with a round in the chamber and “cocked and locked”—the hammer cocked on the live round, and the thumb safety “on safe”—you want to learn to wipe that safety lever into the “fire” position as you bring the gun up on target.

Notice the use of the word "you." Who do you think the intended readers of Backwoods Home are? I somehow doubt they are "well-trained lawmen" of the LAPD. But you can feel free to obfuscate further if you want.

Because of its short trigger pull and cocked n’ locked condition of readiness, the 1911 .45 auto is better suited to the skilled and dedicated practitioner than to the amateur. That said, nearly a century of history has made the 1911 .45 automatic the quintessential “homeland security” pistol, from the rural game fields to house to house combat, and nothing is going to change that.

Ayoob CLEARLY states there (at the end of the same article) that a "skilled and dedicated practitioner," whether in home defense situation or game field - one would assume this excludes police for the most part - can operate a 1911. This definitively shows he advocates cocked and locked carry for anyone who chooses to use the 1911, in addition to training/preparedness/skill.

You said you would defer to Ayoob, so I assume you are a troll who wants to continue arguing about this and insult me personally rather than concede a point. People without an axe to grind have no problem conceding that their own logic proves them wrong.

Do you have any data showing that police are more likely to win a gunfight than a well-trained CHP holder? That seems to be another cornerstone of your argument that is completely baseless.

jkingrph
August 31, 2009, 06:07 PM
Standard type 1911, round chambered, cocked and safety on, same with Browning HP. My Para Ordanace PDA-LDA 45, round chambered, safety on. S&W Ti lite , hammerless, dao, 5 shot, cylinder full.

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