[vanbeast]

Okay, so I'm at the local USPSA match this weekend. There's a guy there who is shooting a USP compact out of an IWB holster.

First stage, when he draws his gun, he turns so he is facing down the 180. He draws, keeping the muzzle more or less in a safe direction, but freaking out everyone (including the RO's, who have told him at previous matches not to do that) They remind him again not to do that, as it makes folks nervous and would be very easy to do unsafely.

Fast forward through the match where a number of bone-headed things happen, but as it was a small match and not very formal, many warnings were issued and things tolerated (not safety-related, just boneheaded stuff)

Second to last stage, I'm keeping score, and I notice that after he Loads and Makes Ready, he puts his USP Compact away with the hammer cocked. He's shooting Production, so that's not alright. After he shoots, while I'm having him sign his card, I ask him about it:

Me: "Did you holster your gun with the hammer cocked?"
Him: "Yeah"
Me: "Yeah, I thought so. That's not legal in Production, the first shot must be Double Action."
Him: <blank stare> "Are you sure?"
Me: "Yup."

At this point the match director who was standing right there affirmed the point about DA first shots in Production. I asked him (scary guy) about his USP, since I thought they all had decockers. What he said next didn't make a lot of sense, so I'm going to paraphrase it a little. I asked if he had a decocker, and when he didn't answer right away I asked if his pistol was DA/SA, DAO, or what?

He said, more or less:

"It's single action. I changed the variant on my USP to a 1911 style."

Thing is, he seemed to indicate that at one point he had a decocker, and modified it. I looked at his gun, and I didn't see a safety lever.

At this point, I'm thoroughly scared. At the final stage, after he LAMR'd, he tried to stick his gun back in the holster, and couldn't find the holster. He was aiming for the small of his back where his t-shirt was all bunched up... I took a few steps back.

Is it possible the safety was there and I just didn't see it? Does H&K make a model that has a decocker that would be possible to remove? The MD said he'd be inspecting the gun at the next match.

We were all pretty confused about how this guy's gun worked. Can anybody shed some light?

[Dark Tranquility]

Variants 5, 6, 9 and 10 have no decocted, variant 7 has no external control lever. You can also make custom variants like I’m doing. I have a variant 3 compact (decocker only / no manual safety) and then I’m putting a full size USP hammer on it.

It sounds like he’s made a custom variant.

Dan

[vanbeast]

So it's possible to create a gun that is single-action and has no safety or decocker?

Yikes. That's really what it sounds like he has. About as far from safe as I can think of.

[Sean Smith]

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/images/usp-var.jpg

[Sean Smith]

That guy should have been DQ'ed several times over, by the way. Not following the rules of the class he was shooting in, chronic failure to follow RO instructions, unsafe behavior (it doesn't have to be in the book to be unsafe), and so forth. To be honest, that match sounded like a grabasstic mess.

[vanbeast]

Exactly right.

The fact is, Nationals are happening in Bend, OR this weekend, and everyone (and most of the props) from the club are over there. There were 11 people there, making it very informal.

He was told yesterday that this is all stuff that would get him DQ'ed in a regular match. He's been told it before. People here are very generous, giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He said he usually shoots L10, and just thought he'd give Production a try. I've never shot with him before so I don't know how much truth there is in that.

Needless to say, next match I go to I'm making sure I'm on his squad and that the other folks on the squad are aware of the situation.

[Double Naught Spy]

Hey, that guy doesn't get to shoot Production with modifications like that, does he? Should that not be an open class gun?

[vanbeast]

I think with those mods he goes to L or L10. The rule book doesn't say much about changing the operation of the pistol, just about modifications to things that could provide a competitive advantage.

I don't think the advantage gained from not having a safety to disengage is significant enough to consider...

[10-Ring]

If the organizers of your match doesn't do anything, talk to the owners of the facility. There is no reason to allow bad safety practices for the sake of friendliness & a good time!

[Kobun]

In my oppinion, he should have had a written warning for each time he handles the gun in a unsafe manner.
The second warning and he's DQ'd.
If he was shooting production with a modified gun, he should also have been DQ'd, at the time this was discovered.
Some people don't learn untill they get a DQ.

It is sometimes hard to DQ someone, and I have been in that position.
There are times I should have DQ'd someone, but I've let people off with a stern written warning. (Like the time a guy was about to back up and around me with a MP5). :uhoh:
As a IROA official, it is foremost my responsibility to see that everything stays safe on my range.

[C.R.Sam]

In the long run...
Bein a nice guy not doin anyone a favor.
Let him get away with it and his bad habit becomes more firmly ingrained.
Better to DQ him for unsafe procedure than to have him, later, shoot himself or another.
Even if he only shoots himself, the bad press falls on all of us.

Sam

[Ankeny]

Since when is shooting the wrong platform in the wrong division a DQ? Did I miss something in the rule book?

[vanbeast]

If the shooter intentionally misrepresents his division, then I think a DQ is in order. I don't think that was the case here, though, I think he was just unfamiliar with the rules.

[Ankeny]

Shooting a non-compliant pistol in the wrong division gets you moved to Open, not thrown out of the match (6.2.6). In my view, a DQ should be issued in a polite, professional, and courteous fashion for all appropriate offenses. However, it's pretty bush league to DQ a shooter "just because".

[vanbeast]

Yeah, I agree with you. What I'm saying is that if a shooter, knowing full well that his equipment is illegal for a division, signs up for that division anyway, that is a clear violation of the spirit of the game, and in my opinion grounds for DQ.

There was no "just because" in this situation. He didn't get DQ'ed, but if he had been, it would have been for repeated instances of near-violations of the safety rules, and for mouthing off to the RO's when they tried to correct him.

[Archie]

From the way the information provided with my USP reads, the pistols can be changed from one "variant" to another using factory parts. If done properly, the pistol is still a "stock" pistol, as it can (could?) be purchased that way.

Mine is the variant One, which is a double-action to single-action pistol, with a cocked and locked override. The thumb safety is also the decocker, there are not two separate controls.

Just as a question, That's not legal in Production, the first shot must be Double Action."Does that apply to Government Models and Browning Hi-Powers? If the pistol is designed from the factory to have a cocked and locked condition, may it be carried that way?

[vanbeast]

1911's and BHP's aren't allowed in Production, they must be shot in Limited or L-10.

The 14th edition rulebook states on page 92 that the first shot must be Double Action. It's on page 92 of the book.

What isn't written but is generally accepted is that Safe Action type systems (ie Glock) are allowed in Production.

[Standing Wolf]

People here are very generous, giving him the benefit of the doubt.

As far as firearms safety is concerned, I follow the old-time rule of "When in doubt, don't."

[vanbeast]

Wolf: fine point. Like I said, folks were a bit confused about how to handle it. While there weren't any overt safety violations that I saw, there was a lot of tendency towards unsafe behavior. It was a borderline situation that will not remain un-dealt-with for long.

[Ankeny]

vanbeast:

A DQ is a pretty harsh penalty and all I am saying is a DQ should not be issued unless there is clear cause. Signing up in the wrong division is not grounds for a DQ unless the guy mouths off and admits to doing it to gain an advantage, in which case a DQ might be issued for unsportsmanlike conduct under US 10.4.1. Without proof of intent the best you can do is move the guy to Open or have him shoot for no score. To DQ for "dishonest" behavior requires proof of intent.

If the guy in question was repeadetly ignoring warnings from range officials and being an all around pain in the butt he should be DQ'd and banished fron the range under US 10.4. If you want to give the guy a chance to stick around and get his act together, a good place to start would be to e-mail him a link to this thread.

[vanbeast]

None of this was my decision, as I'm even newer than he is :) I was just relating what I saw.

I agree with you that a DQ is a harsh penalty. That's why he wasn't DQ'ed. The same RO's we had this weekend had dealt with him and his actions before, and seemed to have just about had enough.

I wish I knew more background and could remember all the incidents more clearly so that I could paint a better picture.

[New_comer]

So it's possible to create a gun that is single-action and has no safety or decocker? None of the USP variants provide this set-up.

He said its 1911-style. So it's either a Variant 9 or 10. Besides, he seems to know what he's doing, 180 rule and all that. It's very unlikely, but not impossible, to saw off the lever. But that's bordering on the insane. Suggest you look harder next time.. ;)

I, too, didn't know the DA first shot requirement of Production till I was about to commence at my first tournament. The RO insisted I decock the gun, else I'd be re-classed in Standard, shooting Minor.

I HAD to obey! ;)

[vanbeast]

New_comer: we all got the impression he had modified it. As others have said, it's possible to replace factory parts with other factory parts. His gun is going to get inspected next time it's around.

I specifically asked him about the presence of a safety or a decocker, and he said no to each, but he may have been confused.

We shall see...

[Skunkabilly]

What he did is a factory modification...While I wasn't there, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, if he really wanted to game it, he wouldn't have been shooting from an IWB holster.

[vanbeast]

Skunk, the main concern is that a single-action gun, with no safety, no decocker, being stuffed into an IWB holster (or as often as not missing the holster and going into his pants) along with his other unsafe tendencies, scares the hell out of everybody there.

I don't know much more about the situation than I've already said. I'll be real curious to see what happens at the next regular match when they get a chance to really look at his gun and make a judgement.

[c_yeager]

So, long story short this guy didnt actually VIOLATE any safety rules and his pistol is most likely a "factory" pistol. And you want to DQ him? Is he just a jerk or what? So far it seems kinda like you all just dont like him.

[New_comer]

the main concern is that a single-action gun, with no safety, no decocker, being stuffed into an IWB holster (or as often as not missing the holster and going into his pants) along with his other unsafe tendencies, scares the hell out of everybody there. Hmmm... It's really not that unusual...


Happens all the time with a 5-lb Glock, or XD trigger (USP's SA is also rated 5 lbs with a quarter inch take-up or so). Trigger safety akin to having the parking brake lever on top of the gas pedal. Cocked single action if you ask me. These guns are used all the time in work and competition...


I personally do not subscribe to such set-up. But looking around, we see a great many people who prefer their guns that way. As long as they observe when to activate the trigger finger, it's as safe as any other gun. ;)

[Skunkabilly]

I agree his safety will have to be addressed...it's a sport but getting shot is no fun.

I wouldn't ding him on the equipment rules, just kindly let him know that he will have to compete in Limited 10. Is he shooting 9mm or .40?

[Ankeny]

vanbeast:

OK, for the record, I really am on your side. I abhor unsafe gun handling and a questionable pistol in the hands of a marginal shooter who also has too much "attitude" is a wreck waiting to happen. All I am saying is to apply the rules uniformly and according to "the book" so it won't come around and bite you in the butt.

I am not familiar with the workings of the USP but New_comer is correct that pistols minus external controls are really pretty common as long as they are DA/SA or safe action pistols. However, a single action pistol must be holstered with the safety on. If the competitor in question has made an unsafe modification to his pistol that is not one of the variants listed by the manufacturer, or if he has defeated the primary safety with aftermarket parts or by removing/deactivating factory parts, you could build a case for withdrawing the pistol from competition under rule 5.2.5 which states in part, Examinations may include the primary safety which in all instances must be completely functional in accordance with the manufacturer's design.

Now before you guys get the flame throwers out, my take on this is the guy has repeatedly violated safety rules, is ignoring the range officials, might have an unsafe pistol and has been cut way too much slack. It seems like the issue is how legalistic and strict should the club be and how do they go about getting through to this bone head now that they let his antics slide. At times like this the club officials just need to take the guy aside and have one of those come to Jesus meetings. If the guy really is unsafe, document his behavior, take appropriate action, and if need be mail your concerns to USPSA. In extreme cases, USPSA has been known to revoke membership and ban shooters for life.

[vanbeast]

c_yeager: *I* don't want to do anything, I'm describing what others said. His way of drawing and reholstering is such that the gun is ALMOST at the 180. Any variation and it would be. He has disregarded instructions to change that in the past. The folks mentioned there were a number of other things he was doing that were unsafe, but I don't know what they are and I didn't notice.

new_comer: well, I shoot an XD. I disagree with you in some ways because of the way I use my gun, but I know many others don't. I keep my grip safety engaged when I'm holstering (I sort of hold the gun with my fingertips) so that even if something manages to get in the trigger guard, it's not going to fire. I can see what you are saying, though, at least as far as the Glocks are concerned.

Skunk: .40. He's been told repeatedly that he can't shoot production, but keeps forgetting. He's been told how to work up a major .40 load, but doesn't seem to bother.

Generally: remember, I have no authority in this, I'm just relating a story. I'm hoping to communicate some of the things I see here back to the folks with actual decision making abilities. I was mostly trying to determine whether or not it was possible to remove both the decocker and safety from a USP.

[vanbeast]

Ankeny:

That's good info, thanks for digging up that rule. I think that's what the MD had in mind. From all indications this guy had defeated the only safety mechanisms his gun had. Now, that may be fine on it's own, but combined with the way he handles his gun, and other things about his personality, there seemed to be some belief that he may not realize exactly how dangerous that is.I abhor unsafe gun handling and a questionable pistol in the hands of a marginal shooter who also has too much "attitude" is a wreck waiting to happen.EXACTLY. That is exactly it.

Y'know, I like the guy just fine. I think he did some bad stuff at the match and wasn't that open to criticism/correction, but we all get like that sometimes. I just don't want to see anyone get shot. If he has to get DQ'ed once to finally make the things the RO's have been telling him sink in, then I'd rather that happen then continue to shoot with this guy and his actions.

[Ankeny]

vanbeast:

oops, we posted at the same time...deleted.

[Kobun]

OK, as I do not get 100% what the person in question did or did not do I'll give you the rules that apply.

IPSC Ed. 14
5.3.6.4 [Competitor shall not be permitted to commence a cource of fire wearing:] A holster, with the muzzle of the handgun pointing farther than 1 meter (3 feet) from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed.
10.3.8 [Match Disqualification for Safety Infractions-] Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3 feet) from the competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.

[Black Snowman]

I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the rules but whenever I shoot my Glock in competition I don't have a round chambered. As a trade off for double then single trigger pull to maintain the same level of safety I would always have to rack the slide before firing. I felt this was a fair trade-off with the double/single action pistols that had the odd 1st shot. I asked about it before my 1st shoot and found that in our informal shoots this was actually a rule. Just as much for fair competition as it was for safety.

Only vaugely related, but I thought I'd share. As for my opinion on the situation, if people feel unsafe, it most likely IS unsafe and it sounds like people let their discomfort be known. You're definately doing the right thing by keeping tabs on him and warning him and those around him.

[Sean Smith]

I'm pretty far from a rules Nazi, but it would seem like the following would pertain to the situation in question:

US 10.4.2 The range officials shall have complete authority over all persons on the range. A competitor who fails to obey the officials' instructions and directions pertaining to safety or competitive issues, or behavior deemed likely to bring the sport into disrepute, such as those listed above, may lead to disqualification from the match and banishment from the range.

The guy was repeatedly told not to do something safety-related and blew it off. That is the paramount issue here.

[Skunkabilly]

Skunk: .40. He's been told repeatedly that he can't shoot production, but keeps forgetting. He's been told how to work up a major .40 load, but doesn't seem to bother.

Vanbeast, AFAIK you could still shoot .40 in Production, but you get scored as minor no matter what? :confused:

[vanbeast]

Skunk, you're absolutely right, I didn't explain very well.

What I meant is that due to the condition of his gun (ie, SA first shot) he's not in Production, no matter what. Therefore, to be helpful people have been telling him how to make a major .40 load so as to not be penalized.

Man, I am not doing a good job explaining myself in this thread... :banghead:

[New_comer]

Maybe the guy's shooting just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Seems like he wouldn't care being classed in Open or Modified, as long as gets to shoot.


But safety is paramount!


As long as he sticks with the rules as enforced by the RO, he's ok by me. If he's bent on being a regular PITA, send him packing! ;)

[1911Tuner]

that I got from an LEO buddy. Seems this guy showed up at a turkey
shoot...drunk. After watching the scattergunners shoot for a while,
he laughed and loudly declared that he could knock the center out
of the card with his pistol. He produced a 1911, fired three rounds
downrange, and stuffed the pistol back into the front of his pants.
Guess what he shot clean off. (HINT: Now he squats to pee.)

Wotta world, huh?
Tuner