Why should we own M1 Carbines?


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Nugilum
October 24, 2008, 01:43 PM
OK, before I inadvertently start a flame thread let me explain...

I understand that the M1 Carbine was one of the rifles issued to our support US troops in WWII, and many US soldiers loved using this rifle instead of a M1. I also know that this rifle has saved tens of thousands of lives world-wide within the past 60+ years.

For me, I really donít see the advantage of owning a M1 Carbine today. What would be the advantage of having a Carbine over an AK, or an AR, or even a .30 WCF (.30-30 Win)? What is the advantage of having a rifle whose ballistics are comparable to a .357 Magnum handgun? What other advantages exist with this rifle have that other rifles donít?

Play nice now... ;)

Before people start freaking out, I do own one. I inherited my grandfatherís M1 carbine he purchased from the DCM in 1962 for $62.00. :neener:

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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 24, 2008, 01:45 PM
There isn't a lot, other than nostalgia.

But the answer is, the same as any other pistol cal carbine, a low-recoil bullet hose, which is most useful in full-auto. So absent a full-auto gun, there's really no reason for it, except for the recoil sensitive (i.e. the wifey's gun).

ArmedBear
October 24, 2008, 01:56 PM
It's a fun toy.

And since it's a pistol-class round, nobody harps on its accuracy or lack thereof.

With the similar Mini-14, people bitch that the .223 round isn't accurate enough, because it's a varmint cartridge and we expect accuracy from a .223.

So there you go. It's a fun toy with history, and it quite lives up to low expectations.:)

1KPerDay
October 24, 2008, 02:09 PM
If you don't like your carbine send it to me. I'll pay double what your dad paid. :D

skinewmexico
October 24, 2008, 02:11 PM
I can't, because my dad would roll over in his grave. He hated the M1 carbine, said he saw a lot of guys killed because of it.

SlamFire1
October 24, 2008, 03:04 PM
He hated the M1 carbine, said he saw a lot of guys killed because of it.

It would be interesting to know more about that.

Our elderest Gun Club Officer is a veteran of the Okinawa and Iwo Jima invasions. He carried a M1 carbine. Just this month he expressed to me his frustration with the thing. He was upset that it was not accurate enough to hit the enemy at 200 yards. He personally sighted his carbine in before he shipped, said he took it back to the range armorers and told them where it was hitting, and they adjusted it until he was satisfied. Even with that, he claimed while he shot at Japanese 200 yards distant, he had no expectation of hitting one. (his exact statement was much more animated :fire:)

A 101 Airborne veteran I know, told me the carbine was a great gun to play solider, but when his unit was told to prepare for an airdrop into Cuba, (Cuban Missile Crisis), he traded his carbine in for a M1 Garand.

The carbine was a pistol substitute. It is unfortunate that the carbine was so weight optimized that it could not fire a more powerful round.

I wonder how it would have faired if it was chambered for something like a 10mm Magnum. Still might be around in one shape or another.

greyling22
October 24, 2008, 03:13 PM
lightweight 30rd capacity, 357 ballistics? Wouldn't be my first choice to take to the battlefield, but around the house/ranch/apartment? who wouldn't want one? you don't have overpenetration problems like a 223, or 30-06 it's not so "scary" looking if your friend sees it in the corner. And I have yet to ever hear people whining about the power of a 357 mag.

RockyMtnTactical
October 24, 2008, 03:16 PM
They are fun to shoot and have a great history.

They are very light too, but I see no advantage of an M1 Carbine over an AR15 carbine.

you don't have overpenetration problems like a 223

What overpenetration issues?

mljdeckard
October 24, 2008, 03:59 PM
Rocky, you're my local buddy, BUT,

There's a big difference between people using an AR for HD, loaded with Hornady TAP, and a guy who gets his first AR, knows absolutely nothing about it, and loads it up with the cheapest 62 gr steel-core he can find, because 'it's the same stuff soldiers use, so it must be good enough for me.' (Or a guy who buys an AK knock-off, and loads it with Wolf FMJ.) An AR absolutely CAN overpenetrate when you use 'regular' military ammo, which is intended to be able to shred cars. An AR is good for HD IF you use the correct ammo. I've killed enough medium sized animals with 5.56 to know that you don't want to be behind that target. I don't care what box-o-truth says. All rounds can overpenetrate. Some are much more likely to do this than others. IN THE HOUSE, I'm using something other than a rifle cartridge. When I may or may not be able to control the trajectory, and I am responsible for where that round goes, I want something else.

I have my grandfather's Inland, which he paid $30 dollars for when he joined the NRA in the late 50s, I think. I keep two mags of Winchester JHP in a pouch on the butt, it's my wife's primary and my backup. (To my 870, loaded with #4 buck.) She can handle and shoot it comfortably, bone stock. The only thing I wish I had was night sight inserts, I've poked around for them, but no one seems to make them for the carbine.

I'm not a fan of pistol rounds for PD/HD in general, they are all inadequate, but the .357 is about as good as they get. .30 carbine gives energy comparable to a .357 mag out of the rifle barrel, without the guaranteed hearing damage you would get from a .357 revolver indoors. This setup is 15 rounds, plus another 15 with a fast reload. (which my wife CAN do one-handed, very quickly,) Comparable carbines, like a Ruger .44, or lever guns in other heavy pistol cartridges are also good compromises.

lencac
October 24, 2008, 04:43 PM
I can think of several reasons. 1) M1 carbines are just plain cool. 2) They are cheap to shoot and reload for. 3) Because of the low recoil they are perfect for young adults and "girlfriends" to learn the basics of shooting. 4) Although they use a pistol cartridge they still provide much greater range than a pistol. 5) If legislation is enacted to control or ban pistols the M1 is still a rifle. 6) M1's because of their compact size and light weight are perfect for packing around and general use. 7) 15 rd. magazines and quick reloading make it a very weildy HD/PD weapon. :)

skinewmexico
October 24, 2008, 05:12 PM
It would be interesting to know more about that.

Yes it would, but he didn't talk, other than to say they were terrible, and all the guys he knew dropped them first chance, and picked up a Garand.

feedthehogs
October 24, 2008, 05:30 PM
Because you can.
What else really matters in a free society?

MikeKeyW
October 24, 2008, 05:45 PM
You might say the M1 carbine was the first PDW, personal defense weapon. Look at it this way, small, light and handy and a pistol was chambered for the same round (a lot later and a revolver), like the P90 and FN 5-7 or that HK that I'm having a senior moment with what it's called. Israel, who has some of the best weapons around, still fields the M1 Carbine in limited amounts. In a urban CQB environment it comes into its own, I really love my paratrooper model.

Speedo66
October 24, 2008, 06:16 PM
My father, who was in the Third Armored Div. armored infantry in WWII Germany bad mouthed it everytime he saw one. Said it lacked knock down power compared to the M1 rifle. No doubt he was right.

That being said, it's a nice, light, accurate at short range, easy recoiling rifle.

It's allowed at some outdoor pistol only ranges, mine included.

Ammo, while not cheap, is less expensive than most besides iron curtain surplus.

It's traditional wood and parkerized metal, some what of a rarity today in a military weapon, and I enjoy shooting it. Don't mind not getting pounded if I shoot 50 rounds.

If you think of it in it's military role, to be a more accurate "pistol", it works fine.

briang2ad
October 24, 2008, 06:39 PM
Its fun.

It is VERY lightweight. If the stuff HTF, you could carry it anywhere, all the time , forever.

It is more accurate than a pistol, and likely as accurate as an AK.

Its size is perfect in a building.

The recoil is VERY light - better to get back on target.

I think at close range, effectiveness is VERY good. Stories of Chinese winter clothing stopping the round just don't wash.

Ammo is now not that much more than AK. I had a choice back in the 90s to get an SKS paratrooper or a Carbine for $50 more. Now, I have both, but sometimes I wish I had another Carbine. (But the SKS is pretty nie and accurate).

USSR
October 24, 2008, 06:53 PM
I really donít see the advantage of owning a M1 Carbine today.

I guess it's all in how it's configured.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/M1A1a.jpg

Rupestris
October 24, 2008, 07:04 PM
Believe it or not, the Detroit Police Department still has M1 Carbines and uses them. Primarily for training but they do use them in rare situations for field work.

Personally, I think its because the city is so poorly run and has been on the verge of penniless for so long, they can't afford to upgrade and equip all vehicles with AR-15/M-16's.

If its good enough for the DPD... :p

Sunray
October 24, 2008, 07:30 PM
"...the similar Mini-14..." In the case of the Mini-14, it's the rifle that's not accurate enough. With an M1 Carbine, it was the ammo that wasn't up to snuff.
"...lacked knock down power compared to the M1 rifle..." That's an apples and oranges comparison. A 150 grain fmj bullet at 2800fps will always have more "power" than a 110 grain fmj bullet at 1900fps. The Carbine was never intended to have "knock down power" at 200 yards. Its sole purpose was to give the troopies who would have been previously issued a pistol, a long gun. It's far easier to train a non-shooter(as most W.W. II troopies were, despite the myth) to shoot a rifle well enough to defend himself than it is a handgun.
"...as accurate as an AK..." Far more accurate than an AK. Certainly more accurate than an SKS. Neither of them were made for accuracy.
"...they use a pistol cartridge..." The .30 Carbine is not a pistol cartridge. Never was and never will be. Despite the attempts to make it one. It's a carbine cartridge.
"...a pistol was chambered for the same round..." The .30 Carbine out of a handgun makes a .357 look like a pop gun. Mind you, none of the semi-auto handguns chambered in it worked very well.

Jeff F
October 24, 2008, 08:00 PM
The .30 Carbine out of a handgun makes a .357 look like a pop gun.

I'd have to agree with that statement. I got to shoot a Black-hawk chambered in .30 carbine and it was wicked. Defiantly a high intensity round in a handgun.

spuscg
October 24, 2008, 08:03 PM
because there cool:D

and because obama wants to ban it:(

lencac
October 24, 2008, 08:04 PM
Who said they aren't accurate. This is at 100 yrds.

lencac
October 24, 2008, 08:07 PM
I got to shoot a Black-hawk chambered in .30 carbine and it was wicked.

I agree. I shot a Ruger Vequero chambered in .30 carbine. It was quite impressive.

MikeKeyW
October 24, 2008, 08:17 PM
humm, wonder how it compares with the 32-20 and that new 32 mag in comparable revolvers?

SamG.
October 24, 2008, 08:28 PM
I believe the question should be " Why shouldn't we own M1 Carbines"
Because hey, I don't think there is a gun that we shouldn't own. :D

Lone_Gunman
October 24, 2008, 08:35 PM
Most people who disparage the M1 Carbine do so out of ignorance. The carbine was designed to be an alternative to a handgun. It was never intended to be a replacement for a rifle. People forget this.

Would you try and make a 200 yard shot with a 1911? No. If you need to make 200 yard shots, get a rifle. The M1 Carbine was intended to be used by officers and rear eschelon troops that wanted a little more than what a 1911 could offer, but didnt want to have to deal with a Garand.

Rosstradamus
October 24, 2008, 09:17 PM
OK, before I inadvertently start a flame thread

When someone says he doesn't want to start a flame war, he wants to start a flame war.

If you don't like it, get rid of it.

Nugilum
October 24, 2008, 09:50 PM
Uh Rosstradamus,
When someone says he doesn't want to start a flame war, he wants to start a flame war.
Hmm, maybe I said that in some vain attempt to stop certain individuals from bringing their "Low Road" opinions into the discussion. I guess I should have realized these individuals might lack the maturity or willpower to hold their opinions of other people. :fire:

If you don't like it, get rid of it.
Where did I say I didnít like the M1 Carbine? Please show meÖ :scrutiny:

pktrkt
October 24, 2008, 10:49 PM
I love my 4 carbines especially this one.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh76/preecherr/carbine3.jpg
Iver 9 1/2 barrel Enforcer. The rest are GI.

B.D. Turner
October 24, 2008, 11:02 PM
The US .30 carbine is not a pistol caliber carbine. The .30 carbine was developed for the .30 carbine not for handguns. Yes there are handguns in .30 carbine but they were developed way after the carbine.
The carbine is the most handy rifle I have ever owned. From white tail deer with soft points to coyotes with hollowpoints and just plain plinking the carbine keeps going and going. Mine is an Inland 2-44 and shoots just like new. I wouldn't trade it for an AR-15. I have a new Panther Arms AR and the carbine gets fired way more than the AR. If you don't like your underpowered, outdated non german killing, cooks gun carbine and want an AR send me two GI carbines and I will fix you up with a real nice AR.

Huddog
October 24, 2008, 11:17 PM
I recently obtained a universal firearms version, I know it's not a real M-1, but I love the way it shoots. It is just a fun gun. Plus the wife likes it and handles it well.

Nugilum
October 24, 2008, 11:20 PM
B.D. Turner, From white tail deer with soft points to coyotes with hollowpoints and just plain plinking the carbine keeps going and going.

Nice! Do you by chance recall the range you shot with the deer?

Dienekes
October 25, 2008, 02:54 AM
Along about 1961 or so you could get carbines from the old DCM for $20; by then I had just a bit of experience with them and knew some background from Korea on them--as a matter of fact, read the scathing ORO report in the ROTC library. So I passed on the $20 carbines. Carried one quite a lot in the USAF, and years later got one of the Blue Sky ones to play with. Worked on it quite a lot to try to get some accuracy out of it, including glass bedding it (that was a job!). One day I had a master class shooter fire it for accuracy. The target was still nothing to write home about, my son was frustrated trying to hit things with it, and I finally sold the carbine. Don't really miss it.

They're cute, nostalgic, and handy. When I had to pack one eight hours a day on a concrete ramp, it was just right. When I went over to SEA we got the early M16s, and I was glad to get mine. Jim Cirillo liked it as a stakeout weapon, and if reliable and with a good SN or JHP round it's a reasonable proposition. But I get along nicely without one, and my M4gery surpasses it in every respect as a tool.

22/22mag
October 25, 2008, 03:25 AM
Well I guess Audie Murphy was wrong .

B.D. Turner
October 25, 2008, 08:10 AM
Do you by chance recall the range you shot with the deer

The first one was in 1987. 75 paces across a corn field one shot. Using Remington soft point. Have taken several more from a tree stand only had to look for one that ran about 40 yards before dying.

I remember a guy back in 82 that told me a 30 carbine was a sorry deer rifle and good for nothing after he claimed to have hit a deer five times and that the deer just kept going. A couple of hours later the same deer was killed by another hunter. The hunter with the carbine had only hit the deer one time out of five and that was a bad shot to the right hip. I doubt any caliber would have done any better.
Deer of today cannot be killed with a .30 carbine as deer today are armor plated and have to be taken with a 7mm magnum or larger.
I will just sit here holding my old carbine in the bunker waiting for the zombies to attack.

B.D. Turner
October 25, 2008, 08:14 AM
Along about 1961 or so you could get carbines from the old DCM for $20;
$20 would buy much more in 1961. You could also buy a new Nash Rambler for under $2000.

moooose102
October 25, 2008, 08:15 AM
It's a fun toy.

_1! just a nice fun plinker.

wcwhitey
October 25, 2008, 09:27 AM
I have owned two, sold them both. Neither cost me over $200, ammo was cheap. I found both examples to be inaccurate. Didn't care about the stopping power factor, I have no use for a rifle that I can't hit with. I will be fair and say that they were both GI mixed parts guns as so many are but both had fair to good bores and should have shot better. I liked my Mini 14 better, more powerful and at least for me more accurate. Moved on to the EBR's and don't miss either one of them. JMHO Bill

nero45acp
October 25, 2008, 10:15 AM
I'm by no means wealthy, but I can easily afford an AK or even a nice AR, but I eschew both in favor of my M1 Carbine. Loaded with Remington's SP cartridges, I'm confident that's adequate for just about any threat I'm likely to encounter. Besides, I live in a very populated area, given my circumstance I believe that the M1 Carbine is ideal.


nero

skinewmexico
October 25, 2008, 10:58 AM
Well I guess Audie Murphy was wrong .

You lost me on that one.

22-rimfire
October 25, 2008, 11:23 AM
Like any other military rifle, it has it's use. For me, I consider it a collector gun and it has to have all matching serial numbered parts for it to be authentic.

You can shoot them of course. But I see so many other rifles and handguns as being better choices. If it was so good, the military would still be using it.

It's just a part of our history; a good part. They used to be common as dirt at gun shows for $100 or less. Buy them and enjoy them.

mljdeckard
October 25, 2008, 12:26 PM
My dad killed two mule deer with mine, one shot each. I wouldn't use it for deer, but plenty of people certainly have. Does someone have a link to a muzzle energy chart comparing it to a .357?

Frandy
October 25, 2008, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Well I guess Audie Murphy was wrong .

You lost me on that one.

Audie Murphy carried a carbine and did just fine with it until he jumped on that tank destroyer and blazed away with the .50 cal.

My uncle fought in the Pacific in WW II and used a carbine. He did his share of killing with it too, and he came home to talk about it...but not until years later when he turned 80! He liked using his carbine because it was light, maneuverable, accurate enough (his words), and saved his life.

And yeah, I own an M-1 carbine.

briang2ad
October 25, 2008, 01:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ktaTbgQsU&feature=related

FMJMIKE
October 25, 2008, 05:48 PM
With Remington jacketed soft points the M1 Carbine is a great house gun. It has a lot less muzzle blast than many other weapons. That makes a big difference inside the house. I personally just love the history of them. Here is a pic on my CMP Rock-Ola M1 Carbine......
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/CMPROCKAA.jpg

ambidextrous1
October 25, 2008, 06:06 PM
Mike, that's a great looking carbine, with its ebony stock!

Do you know anything of its history?

FMJMIKE
October 25, 2008, 06:17 PM
This CMP Carbine was returned from Italy. The Italians were loaned these Carbines after WW II. They finally returned them. The Carbine is in great condition. I just love owning a M1 Carbine that was made by a company that made juke boxes.
:D

Eightball
October 25, 2008, 06:30 PM
They're light, handy, easy to manipulate and maneuver with, and low recoil. Plenty of people have been laid low with one. As long as you don't get it into your head to compare it to a heavy, long rifle like a Garand, and rather keep in mind its intended purpose & reason for issue (better at longer ranges than a handgun; akin to the PDW role of today, but without the "happy switch" or AP), then it's a fantastic weapon. I love mine.

And, people like Pelosi and Feinstein and the Bradys hate the thing, because you can do this with it:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=86859&d=1224973643


They're a historical artifact, the Anti-gunners hate it, they're amazing to teach people to shoot with, and they're just fun (most people who own the most tricked-out AR15s shoot my M1 Carbine, and say "that's fun, I need one").

What more reasons do you need?

mgregg85
October 25, 2008, 06:35 PM
Its all how you look at it. The M1 carbine was really intended to function as a sort of improved pistol and it excels at that. Its not a garand but its not a bad little weapon.

rondog
October 25, 2008, 07:32 PM
D*** you all! Now I gotta have one......

56FordGuy
October 25, 2008, 08:04 PM
I'm wondering, what do y'all consider cheap ammo for the .30 Carbine and where are you finding it? All I've found locally runs about 25.00 for 50 Alabama Arms reloads.

salthouse
October 25, 2008, 08:11 PM
Its my favorite gun. And its a terrific home defense weapon. I have an AR, and a Garand. When someone breaks in, they have to deal with me and the AR and my wife with M-1. (I'm a gentleman)

NC-Mike
October 25, 2008, 08:13 PM
(Or a guy who buys an AK knock-off, and loads it with Wolf FMJ.)


Nothin wrong with that. It'll go bang when you pull the trigger. :neener:

mljdeckard
October 25, 2008, 11:49 PM
So will a heavy bolt rifle in a magnum caliber. Doesn't make it near ideal for home defense.

bonza
October 26, 2008, 08:17 AM
About 30 years ago I bought a Underwood M1 Carbine, without a magazine, for $20. Found a 30 shot magazine for $25! It was a lot of fun to shoot, just wasn't my 'thing' back then so traded it for something more 'useful'.....wish I hadn't now!

Speedo66
October 27, 2008, 12:56 AM
There's a bunch of places selling Wolf for $13 or so per box of 50, including Aim Surplus and Ammoman.

sharkhunter2018
October 27, 2008, 01:29 AM
I love the Carbine. I picked up one of the AO Carbines about two years ago. It can do about 2MOA at 50. Based on that, I know it is more than capable out to 100. I put mine on HD duty every once in a while. It's a handy little package.

I've been toying with the idea of getting a Ultimak rail for it and mounting an Aimpoint. Make it my go to groundhog gun for around the farm.

Oohrah
October 27, 2008, 03:03 AM
I really HATE them. Bought my first in the early 60s for
$20 from the DCM. An accurate Winchester in excellent
to almost new condition. :fire:Hated it so bad that I bought
four more in Service grade from CMP for many times the price
I paid for the first one. Varied condition from very good to like
new on one.
A mustang Marine Major on Iwo, would not touch one. He also
never saw what a soft nosed or a Hornady half jacketed 100gr
bullet at over 2000 fps does to flesh. As a LEO many years ago,
I found that a soft nosed 30 was a better instant stop on Feral Dogs
and pigs than the 357 Mag of that day. Instant one shot kills, when
a couple of times the 357 required a second round for total lights out:banghead: Sitting jack rabbits were a head and a ring of fur.
It halved a runnning jack. Never used it on deer, but should be
close to 7.62X39 (slightly weak). Seen several downed with SKS
rifles in this area with single rounds:)
BEAUTY MUST BE IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER!!!!!!

dm
October 27, 2008, 03:40 AM
If you had to choose between a Mini-30 and an M1 Carbine, which would you choose?

The 7.62x39 has slightly more fps (2300 versus 1900), slightly heavier (120-130 grains versus 110 grains), and a better ballistic coefficient.

An Auto-Ordanance M1 Carbine will set you back nearly $900, a CMP Carbine (in passable state) will set you back nearly $500, while a brand new stainless Mini-30 will set you back $600-$700.

jjohnson
October 27, 2008, 08:00 AM
I bought my DCM M1 Carbine over a year ago because I could. I have other milsurps that I enjoy shooting and it's part of the collection.

I enjoyed having one as a kid 35 years ago, and it was fun to shoot, though even then I knew it wasn't much good as a hunting rifle or 'battle implement' like the '03-A3 I had at the same time.

For the moment we're allowed to own them. :scrutiny: And that's the only reason I need.

mljdeckard
October 27, 2008, 11:50 AM
The reason I would choose an M-1 Carbine over a mini-30, is that I will only shoot Russian ammo in Russian guns. The mini-30 is also a great little rifle, but I won't shoot Wolf through it. It loses a lot of the cost advantage when you decide to only shoot higher-grade ammo. (And I already have an SKS.)

1KPerDay
October 27, 2008, 01:16 PM
The mini-30 is also a great little rifle, but I won't shoot Wolf through it.
Why not? You can't hurt it...

1KPerDay
October 27, 2008, 01:19 PM
I'm wondering, what do y'all consider cheap ammo for the .30 Carbine and where are you finding it? All I've found locally runs about 25.00 for 50 Alabama Arms reloads.
Unfortunately about the cheapest you're going to be able to find for brass, reloadable ammo is either Aguila (from the CMP) or factory reloads from cannedheat. Both are about $.33/rd shipped IIRC. Not cheap to shoot anymore.

Sure is fun, though.

blkbrd666
October 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
http://georgia-arms.com/30carbine.aspx

$15.50 for 50rds or $290.00 for 1000rds.

ozwyn
October 27, 2008, 02:01 PM
its a dang pretty gun that a petite lady or child or lazy adult male can use effectively.

With good shot placement it does the job fine.

It has a sense of history to the weapon without being cumbersome from age... and that says a lot in my book.

mordechaianiliewicz
October 27, 2008, 04:17 PM
While I understand the criticisms of the M-1, and can't say they aren't wrong. It is very much underpowered for a longarm. But, I like to think of it as a purpose built weapon.

In urban combat scenarios, it isn't bad. You are going to have to throw alot of rounds in an urban scenario, and you'll have to operate at distances no more than 200 yards away for the most part. Often, you are 100 yards or less from your enemy.

.357 Mag is the most effective handgun cartridge for self-defense (in pistols), so you are looking at an auto .357 (in ballistics and power) designed for short range urban warfare. That is why you would want it.

And of course, because they are cool. Historically they are interesting. And like just about everything else, they are fun to plink with. Would it be my first choice? No. But, I'd feel alot better with an M-1 Carbine than any pistol in a combat situation, and I'd feel much better with it than a shotgun. Simply because while it hasn't got rifle range or power, it has more range than handguns or shotguns.

elmerfudd
October 27, 2008, 04:18 PM
I can't believe they actually used that Che Guevara style picture as a campaign ad. That looks like something straight out of old time Soviet propaganda.

Reid73
October 27, 2008, 05:36 PM
The M1 carbine was a 'dead-end' in weapons development. It was a temporary expedient, intended for people who didn't know how to shoot and were too lazy to learn.

IMHO, the commercial short-barrelled, stockless 'Enforcer' model serves no legitimate purpose and plays right into the hands of the anti-gun gang. Even the name is needlessly inflamatory. :banghead:

I also know that this rifle has saved tens of thousands of lives world-wide within the past 60+ years.Sparing the lives of enemy soldiers isn't exactly anything for a combat firearm to brag about! :(

mbt2001
October 27, 2008, 05:43 PM
m1 carbine was a distinguished rifle in the hands of US Soldiers in 2 wars and in the hands of US and Foreign Legion troops in Vietnam. It is a handy, close range, fast action weapon that does an adequate job on a mansized target.

I honestly do not know where the hostility comes from other than I CAN'T (and I guess several other people out there) own one as I don't have the $$$ to buy a used or new one. :(

TWAJeff
October 27, 2008, 05:44 PM
I like them because they're light, easy to maneuver, cheap to shoot, and because they look nice. :) I have an Underwood and I'm thinking about picking up a new Auto-Ordnance.

HorseSoldier
October 27, 2008, 06:29 PM
The M1 carbine was a 'dead-end' in weapons development.

Debatable. The idea of a light, handy weapon for rear area troops or those who have other primary duties on the battlefield besides working a rifle seems to remain very much alive. Add to that the fact that most assault rifles have more in common with the M1 carbine than the M1 Garand, and it's hard to argue the carbine was an undisputed dead end.

(Admittedly, had they just chopped 20-25mm off the case length of 30-06 rather than the 30 Carbine round it would have been a whole lot more influential and revolutionay.)

It was a temporary expedient, intended for people who didn't know how to shoot and were too lazy to learn.

Let's be fair to the guys who were issued it -- they got the firearms training the US military saw fit to give them (which, with carbine or Garand was okay for its day, I suppose, and wholly inadequate by modern standards). It wasn't like most units in WW2 or Korea were provided unlimited ammunition supplies for training, so laziness doesn't have much of anything to do with combat marksmanship skills with either rifle or carbine (or BAR or anything else). Nor is it like guys who could shoot were invariably issued a Garand and guys who couldn't got a carbine -- you got issued a weapon based on your duty position and unit TO&E, generally without regard to firearms handling ability.

dm
October 27, 2008, 11:39 PM
I can't believe they actually used that Che Guevara style picture as a campaign ad. That looks like something straight out of old time Soviet propaganda.

"They" didn't use the picture as a campaign ad. Some dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_Fairey) did it on his own, and it gained traction. I think the style is more like Andy Warhol (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=andy+warhol) than Soviet Propaganda (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=soviet+propaganda), though you're right about the Che Guevara (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Che+Guevara) poster similarity.

GarandOwner
October 28, 2008, 02:28 AM
...Because its made of all things that are good

Nugilum
October 28, 2008, 11:30 AM
GarandOwner
...Because its made of all things that are good

Yea, it does look and feel like a mini Garand. ;) mmm... warm and fuzzy feelings...

Water-Man
October 28, 2008, 11:50 AM
It was made for fighting in the Pacific during WW2. Being light and short, it was handy to carry in the jungle. Kind of like the M16 for Vietnam.

mbt2001
October 28, 2008, 12:31 PM
The french used it to great affect in Vietnam... They lost, but that isn't the point, they would have lost no matter what rifle they were using.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 28, 2008, 12:51 PM
Come to think of it, no one should own these abominations - don't buy them, and the price will drop. I will try to rid the world of them for youens guys.

alsaqr
October 28, 2008, 12:52 PM
An M1 carbine sits in the closet of our master bedroom, loaded with a 30 round magazine. The carbine is a good home defense weapon.

NC-Mike
October 28, 2008, 11:25 PM
There's a bunch of places selling Wolf for $13 or so per box of 50, including Aim Surplus and Ammoman.

Not on this planet. Must be the Aim Surplus on Mars... :neener:

Speedo66
October 29, 2008, 12:23 PM
Oops, you're correct, only ammoman has Wolf.

Aim has brass .30 Carbine for less than $16 though.

rondog
October 29, 2008, 01:46 PM
The french used it to great affect in Vietnam... They lost, but that isn't the point, they would have lost no matter what rifle they were using.

Man, I'd like to find one of those! Hardly used, only dropped once.....

foghornl
October 29, 2008, 02:12 PM
My long-deceased Dad told the story about the "90-Day Wonder" 2nd LT that arrived in the Pacific Theatre...Dad said he couldn't see how the guy got in...couldn't have weighed 120Lbs with all pockets full of wet sand.... a toothpick casted a bigger shadow....

Anyway, 2nd LT couldn't hit the command HQ building from inside with the M1 Garand. Dad swapped the Lt his M1 Carbine for the M1 Garand 2LT arrived with...both happy. Dad had better rifle, 2LT was absolutely deadly with the carbine inside 150Yds.

Frandy
October 29, 2008, 03:57 PM
The french used it to great affect in Vietnam... They lost, but that isn't the point, they would have lost no matter what rifle they were using.

Man, I'd like to find one of those! Hardly used, only dropped once.....

Thems fightin' words... My uncle was in the French Foreign Legion and fought in Vietnam in the early days. He was one tough son-of-a-bi***. And, from the photos he showed me as a kid, so were his fellow Legionnaires. Oh, and he used a Garand.

JR47
October 29, 2008, 05:02 PM
The French in Vietnam were maneuvered into a trap. They didn't have the resources available to break out, and retired from the field as a result. The French soldiers fought bravely, but their command structure has always had problems with reality.

Nugilum
October 29, 2008, 05:39 PM
JR47
The French soldiers fought bravely, but their command structure has always had problems with reality.

Some would say that about most military leaders, not just US and French. :o

Mat, not doormat
October 29, 2008, 05:44 PM
I've got my Grandpa's Inland. And a few of his stories regarding Carbines in Korea.

First off, the .30 Carbine isn't a pistol round. It's significantly hotter than the .357 Mag that it's often compared to. Besides, the only time I ever hear anyone denigrate the power of said .357, is when they're busy denigrating the .30 carbine. Yeah, it's no .30-06, but then it wasn't meant to be.

Anyhow, Gramps carried his all through Korea, and loved it by comparison with the Garand. He said that he heard plenty of complaints about it, but that there were simple explanations for them. None of them have to do with ballistics or accuracy. The first is the M2 Carbine. While the M1/M2 has very little rearward recoil, it does have hellacious muzzle jump. Even as a semi auto, the muzzle tends to jump 5 or six inches per shot. Think about what that means for full auto. If the first round is a miss, the second will likely miss, somewhat higher. The rest of the mag that follows is simply anti-aircraft fire. According to Gramps, that led to a lot of repetitions of the following conversation:

*sounds of full auto fire*

Trooper: "But Sarge! I hit him with 30 rds, and it all bounced off his coat! This little pansy gun sucks!"

Sgt Gramps: "Boy, give me that gun!"

*bang*

Sgt Gramps: "I hit him with one. He's dead. You missed him with 30 rds. That little pansy gun does just fine. It was the little pansy pulling the trigger that wasn't doing his job."

He also pointed out that there was a weakness with the Carbine that contributed to such troubles. The sighting arrangement. The front sight is protected by two posts, one on either side. Through the rear peep, it's hard to tell which one you've got. After he got a hacksaw, and cut the guards off all the carbines in the squad, and offered to stomp the heck out of (my paraphrase. What he actually said was considerably rougher)anyone he caught shooting full auto, the complaints fell off dramatically.

~~~Mat

Nugilum
October 29, 2008, 06:00 PM
Is it me, or is this starting to sound like an "I love / I Hate" the AR? :confused:

Clyde from Carolina
October 29, 2008, 06:50 PM
I have one, or rather my wife does. :uhoh:

It was a gift from a dear friend of ours, a WWII Marine vet 82 years old who was wounded on Okinawa. (His personal weapon was a Carbine, he was a light .30 cal machine gunner in a rifle company)

Our old friend says based on his experience, the Carbine is not an offensive weapon like an M1 Garand, but is a purely defensive gun. I think he's right.

He saw how much fun my wife had shooting one of his Carbines and he found one and gave it to her for Christmas. She loves shooting her Carbine, and it is her "go to" gun and part of our home defense plan. It does make a perfect wifey gun as already pointed out.

My Dad was a 50s and 60s era Marine, and he didn't think much of the Carbine either. But John George of Merrill's Marauders(author of SHOTS FIRED IN ANGER- a classic) and Audie Murphy liked it a lot. As pointed out, Cirillo wrote well of it also. I was recently told by a British army veteran that the Carbine had a very impressive rep in Northern Ireland, too.

http://www.fototime.com/5F17FCF928E61C4/standard.jpg

FMJMIKE
October 29, 2008, 10:42 PM
This is an early Winchester with a spring tube receiver. This is what the WW II guns looked like with the flip sights..........:D
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/Winhigh1-1.jpg

NC-Mike
October 30, 2008, 12:04 AM
Oops, you're correct, only ammoman has Wolf.

Aim has brass .30 Carbine for less than $16 though.

Sorry for being snarky. For some reason I thought you talking about 7.62 x 39 ammo. :o

In March of 07, I bought 2 cases of 30 carbine ammo from Wideners when I heard the CMP was getting those Italian carbines in. They were 149.00 each. Now they want 184.00 per case but are out of stock. Up by more than 30 percent...

My carbine does love Wolf ammo.

rondog
October 30, 2008, 01:00 AM
Damn, Clyde....that's a pretty carbine!

Clyde from Carolina
October 30, 2008, 03:27 AM
rondog, thank you sir.

FMJMIKE- I like the early style Carbines the best myself. Their sleek lines can't be beat and the flip sight is okay at close personal defense ranges. Here's a late '43 Inland that I helped restore for a friend.

http://www.fototime.com/3A17EE7AAA7E61A/standard.jpg

U.S.SFC_RET
October 30, 2008, 06:16 AM
An M1 carbine sits in the closet of our master bedroom, loaded with a 30 round magazine. The carbine is a good home defense weapon.

Ditto: Can't beat it for its intended purpose. Light, short and the one I have is dependable.

mordechaianiliewicz
November 21, 2008, 01:51 AM
Now I really want one of these bad boys to serve as my self defense piece.

Almond27
November 21, 2008, 02:22 AM
I put a M1 carbine in layaway at a local pawnshop it is a Inland and on the barrel it says 2-43 and under that General Motors its has some wood checkering on the stock near the butt close to trigger assembly. It had one flaw though that I was afraid of when I put the bore light in it it has some slight rust in the bore. The pawnshop manager a good guy cleaned it with some rem oil and ran a few patches through it and it seemed like it was just surface. The rifling was still able to been seen throughout the barrel I think I can get virtually all of the rust out if not all of it. Just a question do you think this will highly affect its accuracy and also I was just planning on using the gun as a range toy and historical piece.

WardenWolf
November 21, 2008, 02:32 AM
Shouldn't. A bit of surface rust won't really do much to the accuracy. If it truly is surface rust, firing a few good rounds through it should also serve to scrub it.

Ignition Override
November 21, 2008, 04:03 AM
Just an academic question here, but have these gone up quite a bit in price since the election?
They seem to have a good self-defense capability with soft-point ammo.

Minis, SKS, MN 44.

j_charles
November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM
ARRRGHHHH! Reading this thread has got me thinking that I really need one of these! Dang it!! I don't need this! :cuss:

;)

But seriously. I've been trying to think of a small rifle that would be a good gun my wife could be trained to use in a HD situation, and this sounds like it would fit the bill. She's not much for shooting, but if I could at least get her to learn how to empty a 30 rnd. mag in the bad guy's direction, we may be onto something.

Matrix187
November 21, 2008, 12:14 PM
I talked to a WW2 veteran at Best Buy (when I worked for the Geek Squad) that fought the japanese and he said he hated the m1 carbine. He said it was like a .22 to him. He wouldve prefered to use the m1 garand.

lencac
November 21, 2008, 05:27 PM
Matrix that example is one that demonstrates the purpose for which the M1 Carbine was NOT intended.

Paradiddle
November 21, 2008, 09:42 PM
I'm always surprised when people refer the carbine as a "pistol" round - it's really not. That cartridge was designed as an intermeidate rifle round - read War Baby for the history - it's pretty amazing how fast the carbine was developed, tested, and manufactured.

They are nearly the most fun you can have with a rifle - I have a Carbine, a Mini, an AR, and a Garand among others. Ask me what is the most fun - Carbine wins. If I were going to war and was a front line grunt in WWII I'd want a Garand hands down - or perhaps a Thompson for house work.

Read this on the so called "lack of penetration" of the round - it seems to me it's got more penetration then the .223 based on his tests.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot19.htm
rifle rounds and water - 30 carbine penetrates nearly twice what .223 does

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm
30 carbine and "frozen clothing"

Anway - they are VERY cool little rifles - like a 10/22 on steroids.

Jeff

Speedo66
November 22, 2008, 10:01 AM
My Dad was in WWII in the European Theater and dispised the carbine as ineffective.

That being said, if you just want a fun gun, not a main battle rifle, not a weapon, not anything to do with killing anything, the carbine is it.

Light weight, light recoil, rugged, military history, etc. So, except for current high prices, what's not to like?

Nugilum
November 22, 2008, 11:34 AM
Does the CMP sill have M1 Carbines in their South Store? I should probably pick up one more. After all, they're listed "by name" in the latest rendition of the AWB-II.

That's reason enough to get at least one! :D

Almond27
November 22, 2008, 11:43 AM
Yes I think the CMP still has some Inlands.

Average Joe
November 22, 2008, 04:09 PM
Because they are FUN ! Who says you need a reason to own one...I'm sure you have lots of gadgets you don't really need, but just want...So, if you want an M1, then get one....

Quickill
November 22, 2008, 06:00 PM
The reality is that the Carbine is a great weapon for the job it was designed for. When you try to push it beyond it doesn't do as well, like everything. I believe they are great, they are very light and fast handling. The round provides excellent stopping power at defensive ranges(which it was designed for) and it is just a plain good looking gun.

On a side note I met a girl this summer, a real hippie, vegetarian, anti- gun, pro earth, hippie. I challenged her saying she can' t possibly know anything about gun rights having never fired a gun. She excepted my challenge and I took her out to the range and gave her my auto ordnance M1. She took one look at it and said she didn't want to shoot it. I asked why? She responded She wanted to shoot a real gun! Then asked to fire my AK. I let her and she flat out fell in love. So from then on when we went to the range she got the AK and I took the M1. Funny how the most "evil" gun in history turned this Gun Hater into a Gun Lover.

lencac
November 22, 2008, 07:31 PM
good story quick

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