Need load recipes for Savage 10 Muzzleloader (Smokeless powder loads)


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 24, 2008, 03:41 PM
Got my 10ML yesterday, used (finally!). Looking to find links to load data, or post your own favorite here, please.

Just want a good, moderately-powerful, smokeless load, preferably with a 245 gr or 295 gr powerbelt, but will consider any/all deer-killing loads - saboted or not.

Thanks!

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1858rem
October 24, 2008, 04:00 PM
i saw an article on it im gonna try an finde for ya, be carefull though cause it can be shooting fine near max and have blown up unexpectedly



http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-10MLII.htm

rcmodel
October 24, 2008, 04:09 PM
GunBlast had something on it:
http://www.gunblast.com/SavageML10.htm

rcmodel

1858rem
October 24, 2008, 04:17 PM
lol ya beat me to it:scrutiny:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 28, 2008, 01:42 PM
Thanks, guys; anyone else? :)

He was getting consistent 1 and 1/8th" groups with 45 gr of Accurate 5744, a powder recommended by Savage - this pushes a 245 gr powerbelt out at 2,012 fps but is easy on the shoulder according to him - nice. That will be my starting point. Only I will use the 245 gr HP instead of the 245 gr aero-tip. Now I need to buy a Lee 3.4cc dipper and the powder - anyone know how many scoops of 3.4ccs equals 45 grains of 5744??

After testing this newest Savage 10ML-II, I am still of the opinion that it is the best inline muzzleloader available. It can be loaded up to power levels of the .375 H&H Magnum for larger game, but this load with the PowerBelt and the 5744 makes for an excellent formula for the hunter who just wants a good, reliable, easy-to-load deer hunting recipe.

Pretty glowing report; interesting.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 28, 2008, 01:56 PM
Oops, wait just a cotton pickin minute here - from Gunblast:

UPDATE October 17th, 2005

I just received an email from the engineering department at Savage strongly recommending AGAINST the use of the PowerBelt bullet with smokeless powder. They certainly know more than I about this, so I am including their message here:

"PowerBelts are just undersized conicals, measuring .499 dropping down the bore of the .501" land to land 10ML-II. Not truly "jacketed," they have a thin copper cladding. Some Powerbelts remain pure lead.

"Encouraging the use of Powerbelts has several detrimental consequences. While there may be no misfires with the double-based, 20% nitro AA5744-- misfires and unhappy customers are likely with Savage recommended N110 and SR4759, a certainty with the long recommended 4227.

"There is the 295 grain PowerBelt Jeff was using, but the better PowerBelts on game are the 348, 405, and 444 Flat Nose versions. These far heavier bullets will send pressures through the roof with smokeless.

"As the copper cladding is thin, it is torn up by the rifling-- not the case in a saboted projectile. Use of the old, unplated Powerbelts (sold as BlackBelts) will coat the bore with lead. A big problem to remove, the classic method being to use liquid mercury. After the still-sold unplated PowerBelts came the first "copper clad" PowerBelts that are still around - the plating is a light copper wash, just like in .22 rimfire ammo. It is so thin you can see the lead through the copper, making bore leading a certainty.

"Harvester makes a competitive bullet to the PowerBelt, the Sabretooth. It is a very thin copper wash that promises lead fouling. If the PowerBelt is okay, why not the Sabertooth?

"PowerBelts generally do not move off the charge with filthy Pyrodex or Black powder fouling. With the use of ultra clean smokeless, movement of the bullet off of the powder charge is a good possibility-- possibly creating a bore obstruction.

"The Savage 10ML-II manual has long suggested only bullets in sabots by MMP with smokeless. To encourage or allow the use of bore-sized conicals may create some or all of the problems listed above-- bore leading, dramatically increased pressures, bore obstruction, and use of other conicals that are lubed lead also creating misfires due to powder contamination from that lube and also bore leading.

"With a PowerBelt, all of these problems can easily manifest themselves.

"Saboted pistol bullets, while not a true 'pressure valve', are at least an accuracy pressure valve. Those that choose to break the rules and just add more powder destroy the sabot seal, and accuracy is gone. No such deterrent is present in Powerbelts and other conicals.

"As a practical matter, a 295 grain PowerBelt, bore sized, cannot fly as flat or hit as hard as a .452 diameter Hornady XTP. The ballistic coefficient of the larger caliber bullet is correspondingly poor.

"Misfires, bore leading, and bore obstructions-- as well as the dramatically increased pressure from heavier (348, 4405, 444 gr.) Powerbelts are all problematic.

"Right in the Savage 'recommended powder loads' appears this statement, which I believe is also in all the manuals: "Use smokeless powder loads with saboted bullets only. When loading and shooting bore-sized lead conical bullets, Savage Arms, Inc. recommends loading with "Pyrodex® RS", "Select", "Pyrodex® Pellets", or "Triple Seven". Maximum recommended charge is 150 grains." That should be enough right there to dissuade people from Powerbelts and other conicals-- the manual clearly does not allow their use with smokeless."

Egad, I'm glad I read that addendum. Anyone know what the twist rate of this rifle is? If I'm gonna use the longer saboted bullets, twist rate might come into play.

1858rem
October 28, 2008, 04:39 PM
one 3.4cc (btw NOT scoops, ok, you use it as a DIPPER using some kind of business card to level the powder off, not tamping or adding to the scoop after leveling) equals 45.2 grains of "acc xmp5744".... i got the lee dipper set at midway for 7 bucks and this is directly off the slide chart that comes with it..... it also states that powder density can vary as much as 16% so reduce loads by at least 10%. id suggest either a cheap grain scale from midway(which btw im going to have to get anyhow because the slide chart does not list trailboss!:mad:) or the lee dipper set.... far as 5744 powder goes....
.3cc=4g
.5cc=6.7g
.7cc=9.3g
1cc=13.3g
..........
3.1cc=41.3g
3.4cc=45.2g
3.7cc=49.2g
i think that may be enough to decide if you need the dipper set or a scale..... i would suggest a scale if you want the most accuracy though, not that the dippers are bad, but you can go in finer increments, and a wider range of powders can be used, not just the 95 powders listed:cool:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 29, 2008, 09:44 AM
Hey 1858, thanks; that's exactly the kind of info I needed to know. I could not find these Lee dippers at Sportsman's warehouse, and I do have a couple of scales. So, instead of using the 3.4cc dipper (esp. in light of what you say about varying densities/reducing by 10%), I want to just weigh out each load and take quite a few to the range, so I'm looking for some sort of pack of little plastic tubes or similar to hold a bunch of charges in. Can anyone think of a type of item that might be commonly found for use typically for another use, so it would be cheap, but would be good for this purpose? Maybe some of those large pill boxes marked Sun, Mon, Tues, etc. ?? Thanks again.

snuffy
October 29, 2008, 02:23 PM
My question is; what is this thread doing on the reloading forum? I wouldn't touch one of those "so-called" muzzleloaders, so this needs to be moved to the black powder forum.

dwave
October 29, 2008, 03:26 PM
I wouldn't touch one of those "so-called" muzzleloaders, so this needs to be moved to the black powder forum.

Just because you wouldn't touch one doesn't mean that it should be moved :cool:.

I am sure he posted it here because he was asking for SMOKELESS loads, and not BLACKPOWDER loads. Last I check, it was the Blackpowder shooting forum, NOT muzzleloaders forum. The mods can decide where it goes, but I think this is as good of place as any.

rogn
October 29, 2008, 03:51 PM
Mine loves a charge of 44.0gr of VV N110 with a MMP sabot and a 250gr Hornady .452 XTP -not magnum. This is a basic recommended load by the Savage muzzle loader forum. The chosen primer is a federal or WW 209. This has proven very accurate at 200yds,too accurate to mention. Id suggest a trip to the Savage forums, specifically the muzzleloader board.

1858rem
October 29, 2008, 03:57 PM
how bout those little ziplock bags that are like an inch or two square? i have seen them before but dont know where to get them..... and if you want to use the dipper, you could probably file it down to hold less cc of powder maybe? i think im gonna find out what volume 5.8grain of trailboss takes up on a friends scale and modify one of my dippers to throw that, verses me having to buy a scale also. so maybe cut the dipper to throw a weight you want to use, but use the scale to find the weight initially

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
October 29, 2008, 09:59 PM
so this needs to be moved to the black powder forum.

I'm asking about smokeless powder, not black powder, so I put it here instead of the Black Powder forum - figured those guys would kick me out. Believe me, I thought about it and this was the best place for it, with Rifles coming in a close second. Had the forum over there been called "Muzzleloaders" instead of "Black Powder", then I would have posted there.

:p :)

PS. Got a can of Accurate 5744, so we'll see - I need a little funnel and some plastic baggies, tubes, or whathaveyou - good idea 1858, I'll look for those. Sportsman's Warehouse didn't have the VV N110 powder, and 5744 was cheaper than IMR 4659 - would the VV or IMR powders been better choices overall?

1858rem
October 29, 2008, 10:57 PM
idunno bout the vv powder, saw a ?high energy? can about 4-5inches square(small!) for like 35 bucks!

rogn
October 30, 2008, 08:22 AM
Really recommend your looking at the Savage muzleloaders forum, they are up to date and wont give you any bum info. As far as tubes, find someone in the path lab business, they use a small 10cc urine tube that has a screw top. Theyre leakproof(obviosly)and are easy to use in the field. When Im doing range work Ill load 10 or 12 and just load as needed. There are 2 or more kinds of tubes, the best ones have flat bottoms, you really dont want the pointed ones. rogn

Rem700
October 30, 2008, 09:15 AM
Try the local Pharmacy to see what pill bottles they might have for sale.

Try any place that developes film and ask for there used plastic 35mm film canisters they just throw them away after removing the film, The plastic ones are usually flexible enough that the edge can be squeezed to make a pour spout. Might want to watch that static doesnt stick the powder to the inside. These are what I use for BP rifle loads.

For use when shooting BP revolver I have some(there a little rubber thread protector like you put on the end of a nut and bolt to protect the threads) I believe Dixie sells them also in bulk but try your local hardware. They only hold about 35grs of BP, I just drop a measure amount of powder and then use the round ball to seal the end.
I am sure most of that is about as clear as mud.

1858rem
October 31, 2008, 12:10 PM
so ya get it figured out, an how well do those savage 10's shoot?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 10:21 AM
OK, thanks all. Yeah, just bought 6 pill boxes and put them in a large ziploc - that gives me 42 shot boxes to take to the range - cost me all of $7.00. Problem solved.

On how does it shoot - dunno yet; sorry; been busy hunting (no luck).

On the Savage forum recommendation, thanks but....Links are good thing - to which of these are you referring?:

1. http://www.savage-central.com/modules.php?name=Forums

2. http://www.savageforums.com/ (this one is down; anyone know whether it's expected to come back up?)

3. http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/

???

Hey, another question, which one of these pistol bullets (shot saboted) will perform best on whitetail deer (not blow up), when pushed quite a ways beyond their intended velocity, up in the 2K to 2,200 fps range?

1. Hornady XTP, JHP, .452"
2. Nosler semi-JHP, .429"
3. Knight's JHP

??

atblis
November 3, 2008, 09:43 PM
http://www.sav10ml.com/

There's also somebody who was selling conversions to use primed 32 acp cases. They also mentioned using the obturating skirt out of the new Winchester AAs as an extra seal.

There's some very interesting info floating around for the ML110.

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